| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Lord Bane |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 11:49:10
In order to not further derail another Scroll i made this one to discuss with fellow scribes what has been part of the argument.
If such a scroll already exists I apologize but in order to give people a faster approach to the discussion I decided to create this one.
In my discussion with another scribe we were of different opinion on how Bane, God of Tyranny is percieved.
In the mentioned discussion it revolved around the 4th Edition Thay and itīs ruler Szass Tam in connection with the faith of Bane and it appears to me that the scribe does not percieve the deity Bane as i see it. Differing opinions are valid and if no common ground can be achieved it should be accepted. Nevertheless iīd like to know how the other scribes see Bane, who is one of the most important gods of the Forgotten Realms setting. How his church would act in certain situations and how regions who have the banite faith deal with it.
All Editions are welcome. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 15 Sep 2012 : 09:45:32
I loved Leira. Obviously priests in different regions would have different attire... but the mirror mask was a really cool idea in my opinion. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 14 Sep 2012 : 17:07:00
quote:
Originally posted by see
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Her clergy concept needed some work, because the whole wearing a mirror mask was stupid.
Oh, no, that's fine. The Guardian of Liars of course has clergy wearing the mirrored mask and running around constantly telling obvious lies and whatnot. After all, it's fun for the priests who get to do that, and the common folk need to hear about Leira somehow.
But, it also serves as a distraction. If you're busy looking at the ones in the weird getup and dismissing her clergy as stupid, you won't think to look for the ones who are going around bare-faced, passing themselves off as non-clerics or clerics of other gods, doing the real work of the Lady of the Mists.
And, of course, those might just be another layer, too. The real work could be done by clerics that don't even know they're hers, worshiping gods that never existed except as an illusion of the Mother of Illusionists.
Go on, try to prove anything about a deity of lies and illusions. Ao said something to the greater gods? Go ahead and prove that Ao hasn't always been a trick of Leira's.
That's absolutely fine and should have been the take on how it was presented. It was presented though that they all go adventuring in the outfit, etc... (and yes, I understand the concept "that's part of the lie"... but when we're talking about a game product, give the true concept). I always felt that "yes" there would be some Leirans were in their temples wearing that getup, but outside their temples they were dressed just like us. It wouldn't be a big secret though (everyone would know that the Leirans in the temple wear that outfit and take it off to "practice" their religion)... the problem just comes in figuring out WHO is a Leiran. In fact, they may wear that getup in their temples because THEY don't even know who their fellow Leiran priests are. There may be a lot more priests of Lliira who are actually Leirans, such that they subtly mispronounce the name of their deity and others don't realize it. |
| see |
Posted - 14 Sep 2012 : 12:33:44
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Her clergy concept needed some work, because the whole wearing a mirror mask was stupid.
Oh, no, that's fine. The Guardian of Liars of course has clergy wearing the mirrored mask and running around constantly telling obvious lies and whatnot. After all, it's fun for the priests who get to do that, and the common folk need to hear about Leira somehow.
But, it also serves as a distraction. If you're busy looking at the ones in the weird getup and dismissing her clergy as stupid, you won't think to look for the ones who are going around bare-faced, passing themselves off as non-clerics or clerics of other gods, doing the real work of the Lady of the Mists.
And, of course, those might just be another layer, too. The real work could be done by clerics that don't even know they're hers, worshiping gods that never existed except as an illusion of the Mother of Illusionists.
Go on, try to prove anything about a deity of lies and illusions. Ao said something to the greater gods? Go ahead and prove that Ao hasn't always been a trick of Leira's. |
| Lord Bane |
Posted - 14 Sep 2012 : 12:04:48
Maybe we see Leira return in 5th Edition, who knowīs, but Bane is not Iyachtu Xvim  |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 14 Sep 2012 : 03:54:52
quote:
Originally posted by Asharak
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I never was a huge fan of Bane... And I think there's enough evidence in 3.X to suggest that Bane is still dead, and that Bane 2.0 is really Xvim in disguise.
Totally agree.
Those who think Bane is back are just an evidence Leira is never dead...  
See now I like how this guy thinks. Yeah, Leira should never have been killed off. Her clergy concept needed some work, because the whole wearing a mirror mask was stupid. But the goddess was awesome. Add to that that she isn't really dead (she just tricked Cyric, who was a boob anyway). |
| Lord Bane |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 09:56:31
Tyrant or not, Bane returned and aside a few loyal banites nobody worshipped him, with such a minor following you canīt ascent to greater godhood. He needed more worshippers and he needed them quickly or other gods may have acted to prevent his return to his former status.
I do not believe Iyachtu Xvim is the new Bane in disguise but i respect your viewpoint even though i do not share it 
|
| Asharak |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 20:22:00
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I never was a huge fan of Bane... And I think there's enough evidence in 3.X to suggest that Bane is still dead, and that Bane 2.0 is really Xvim in disguise.
Totally agree.
Those who think Bane is back are just an evidence Leira is never dead... |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 20:20:18
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
When Bane returned he needed alot worshippers of worshippers to regain his status as greater deity, by taking up the "tradition" that Iyachtu Xvim had created by building upon his father legacy i do see a continuity and by taking the colours and tools of the Xvimvilar he would win them over more quickly as he still used colours and tools their old god had and thus continued "the way".
I do not think that Iyachtu Xvim is the new Bane
LOL, see why I said there needed to be multiple heresies... we can't even get a couple people to agree what's happening. I can definitely see his mortal worshippers disagreeing. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 20:04:54
A true tyrant does not cater to anyone. |
| Lord Bane |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 19:25:14
I meant that of the faithfull of Iyachtu Xvim, not all were coming from the worship of Bane, i think you misunderstood me there.
The dead god Iyachtu Xvim was Banes son, keeping his corpse around, if he does, could also mean that he may bring him back to life and employ him as a servant once again, so far we have no knowledge on Banes views on him. I say Iyachtu Xvim is gone until brought back by Bane.
When Bane returned he needed followers to regain his power, he needed to cater to his worshippers for a short time in that aspect in order to solidify his status, then he may simply stuck with the symbol and colours as a sign of "new beginning", after all he did change his agenda concerning inner church disputes. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 19:05:40
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
Alot does not mean all of them, nonetheless the vision is a sign for the ones sticking with Iyachtu Xvim because of Bane that their beloved master has returned, those "new" to the faith would still need to be convinced.
By not completely eradicating someone you make an example, you show that you caused the other god to lie as a dead husk infront of your feat, a sign of warning and victory, a message that worse fate will befall those who cross him if he is able to "kill" a god. He took the colours to make the transition more easy and i agree with Thaunaril.
It was only Xvim's priests that had the vision.
I think you'd show a pretty dire fate by entirely eradicating all signs someone ever existed. What is merely killing someone compared to erasing them?
And again, why is there a need to make a transition more easy? If Bane did indeed return, he showed he was a better tyrant. That should be all that someone who worships a god of tyranny needs. Keeping colors aren't going to make things easier. Adopting a holy symbol neither deity used before aren't going to make things easier. |
| Lord Bane |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 18:33:23
Alot does not mean all of them, nonetheless the vision is a sign for the ones sticking with Iyachtu Xvim because of Bane that their beloved master has returned, those "new" to the faith would still need to be convinced.
By not completely eradicating someone you make an example, you show that you caused the other god to lie as a dead husk infront of your feat, a sign of warning and victory, a message that worse fate will befall those who cross him if he is able to "kill" a god. He took the colours to make the transition more easy and i agree with Thaunaril. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 18:08:13
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
When Bane returned he needed alot worshippers of worshippers to regain his status as greater deity, by taking up the "tradition" that Iyachtu Xvim had created by building upon his father legacy i do see a continuity and by taking the colours and tools of the Xvimvilar he would win them over more quickly as he still used colours and tools their old god had and thus continued "the way".
I do not think that Iyachtu Xvim is the new Bane
He would have been able to show off his tyranny much better by utterly destroying Xvim and leaving no traces whatsoever. It's his own continuity that he needs to maintain, not the one that was in place for a decade.
A lot of Xvim's followers followed him because of his dad -- so there's no need for any mucking around with trying to win them over; they were already his. |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 14:25:46
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That doesn't really work for me... You don't show how strong and tyrannical you are by adopting the tools and colors of a lesser, and a strong tyrant doesn't cater to anyone.
You show continuity with yourself, by keeping your old colors and tools. Why show continuity with a tool that you used for a few years?
Thats not necessarily true. Many a conqueror has adopted the regalia of their conquered subjects in order to make the transition easier for both sides and also to show both his superiority over past leaders who couldn't stop him from taking their symbols and his willingness to be a true ruler to his new subjects. Bane is certainly clever and arrogant enough to realize this. |
| Lord Bane |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 12:10:53
When Bane returned he needed alot worshippers of worshippers to regain his status as greater deity, by taking up the "tradition" that Iyachtu Xvim had created by building upon his father legacy i do see a continuity and by taking the colours and tools of the Xvimvilar he would win them over more quickly as he still used colours and tools their old god had and thus continued "the way".
I do not think that Iyachtu Xvim is the new Bane |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 10:57:48
That doesn't really work for me... You don't show how strong and tyrannical you are by adopting the tools and colors of a lesser, and a strong tyrant doesn't cater to anyone.
You show continuity with yourself, by keeping your old colors and tools. Why show continuity with a tool that you used for a few years? |
| Lord Bane |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 09:48:49
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Monotheism should not work well in the realms if the deities actually control their spheres of influence. If you only worship bane your cropsshould do less well for not respecting chauntea or sheela, fortune wont find you as much as if you prayed to tymora and umberlee should sink your ships. Monotheism being placed in the realms seems like imposing real world ideas onto a fantasy world designed to function in a different way religiously. If thay ignored all the deities but bane they should theoretically punish them if the realms functionhow they were described until recently.
The remaining god, in this case Bane would have taken over the portofolios of the other gods because they disappear as they are not worshipped anymore. He would theoreticly, if he took over Chauntea or Umberlee, be the one to take care of bad crops and storms on the sea.
@Wooly:
The followers of his son were the ones who would know in first place when something happened to their god. The remaining worshippers of Bane already believed that Bane was still there, the Xvimvilar on the other hand worshipped the son of Bane and since they were organized and Bane basicly had used Iyachtu Xvim as a host for his return it would only be logical to bring them under his sway.
The green light is a sign for them that Bane stands for what Xvim did and will continue his way of tyranny, more like a continuity.
He uses the new symbol as i stated to symbolize that he holds the power of Iyachtu Xvim yet he is stronger. The new colours i see as means to "cater" for the new major group of his faith, the former Xvimvilar to get them used to their new god, having the same colour means that people see him in the tradition of the former one.
As for the Beasts of Xvim/Bane, why should he not take over command of tools to extend his power?
Bane was dead, he is a calculating deity, he wonīt make the same mistakes again he did before his death now that he has returned. He improved and reevaluated his strategy. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 00:34:55
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Im sure i picked up the idea from candlekeep but i see no reason why you cannot have Bane and Xvim as the same and yet different.
Throughout all the various deity books across editions their are mentions of a gods different avatars (2nd edition) and in some cases aspects (3rd edition). So what if Bane returned and subsumed Xvim and his personality but Xvim still exists as an avatar of Bane (looks, acts like, has his own personality, but still works towards furthering tyranny etc). The deity books mentioned in places avatars and aspects behaving in certain ways and performing differently in combat so i see no reason not to assume they are an individual piece of a whole. Although this idea would make the deity a bit schizophrenic.
Anyways back to the focus of the thread. I always envisaged Bane as being the ultimate force of overt evil in the Realms (not the bumbling fool in the books), a real badass who had Myrkul as his advisor and magical backup (when he was around) and Bhaal as his toy to unleash on the unfortunate.
If ever there was evil afoot in the Realms then Bane should be involved, and make him nasty and smart to boot. Im not saying he wont make mistakes and cant be beaten but he should be mean, go after the players when they get in his way (threaten and kill family for instance) and try to take over the world on a regular basis.
If they're going to do a body sharing deity, I want it to be Mellifleur/Velsharoon... and maybe even a new being who uses the phylactery of Mellifleur to attain divine status. At least they're different enough to be truly separate individuals. Of course, given that the power of Mellifleur originally was stolen from Bane.... hmmmm, there's an idea in there somewhere. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 00:32:14
I am okay with Bane. May he have the power to totally crush Cyric. Any deity that hates Cyric with the very core of their being gets a plus from me. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 22:30:26
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
We have the picture of Bane arising out of his sons corpse in the Campagin Setting for the 3rd Edition, he can be the same as his father. He is a corpse.Of course his father could have animated him and infused him with some divine energy to work as his agent but so far we do not know if Banes son is lurking around somewhere, but he canīt be Bane.
I completely agree with your view on Bane as ultimate force of evil though!
Here's something to think about, though: why did only Xvimites see that? Why didn't Bane's remaining devout see it? Why was it green fire, when Bane favored red and black?
If the original Bane is back, why has he changed his holy symbol? Why has he changed his preferred colors to the same colors his son used? Why has he started using, as manifestations, critters his son used and that he did not previously use?
It's possible that all of the changes are because there's still some of Xvim left in Bane reborn. But deities in the Realms have a history of impersonating each other for profit, and Xvim has already tried similar tricks.
I think that the "rebirth" that was only seen by Xvim's followers was Xvim deciding to cash in on his daddy's name and former status, and to win over those he otherwise wouldn't have gotten away from Cyric. He got more power out of the deal than he'd managed to get on his own, up until then. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 22:27:42
Monotheism should not work well in the realms if the deities actually control their spheres of influence. If you only worship bane your cropsshould do less well for not respecting chauntea or sheela, fortune wont find you as much as if you prayed to tymora and umberlee should sink your ships. Monotheism being placed in the realms seems like imposing real world ideas onto a fantasy world designed to function in a different way religiously. If thay ignored all the deities but bane they should theoretically punish them if the realms functionhow they were described until recently. |
| Captain Grafalcon |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 21:25:43
My experience with Baneis based in the novels,so I prefer Cyric. I have nothing against Bane, but the fact that the first is MAD makes him not just evil, but unpredictable. |
| Mateops |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 20:46:11
I am ok with Bane, In my campaign he is used as a dictator. I dont really go with the conquer all part, I mean conquer all never works and is the kind of goal you give to a juvenile villain IMO.
I remember Bane in the avatar trilogy, when he fought with Torm and died (tought it was stupid they raised Torm for being true to his portofolios, wasnt Bane doing the same?)
I really dont see him as redundant to Asmodeus using old aligment I would see Bane as the LE, but Asmodeus as NE. One the power/control/evil dictator and the other more of a corrupter of good and purity. Bane wants to take over countries and rule with an iron fist. I would see Asmodeus more as the kind to be some kind of power behind the throne, destroying for the pleasure of seeing good rot.The classic Satan profile...charming, lying etc.
Bane on the other would not enjoy evil doing for the sake of evil doing, I think he would do what people consider evil simply to attain his goals.
In my campaign Bane is more leaning towards a Lawful Neutral attitude, people that follow him have it hard, ruthless tactics are a way of survival, of favoring the strong and the dominant people for survival. So he is leaving the classic muaahahah villain model behind in my campaign. The last thing Bane needs is the 10000th failed attempt at world domination IMO. |
| Lord Bane |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 20:17:51
We have the picture of Bane arising out of his sons corpse in the Campagin Setting for the 3rd Edition, he can be the same as his father. He is a corpse.Of course his father could have animated him and infused him with some divine energy to work as his agent but so far we do not know if Banes son is lurking around somewhere, but he canīt be Bane.
I completely agree with your view on Bane as ultimate force of evil though! |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 19:17:04
Im sure i picked up the idea from candlekeep but i see no reason why you cannot have Bane and Xvim as the same and yet different.
Throughout all the various deity books across editions their are mentions of a gods different avatars (2nd edition) and in some cases aspects (3rd edition). So what if Bane returned and subsumed Xvim and his personality but Xvim still exists as an avatar of Bane (looks, acts like, has his own personality, but still works towards furthering tyranny etc). The deity books mentioned in places avatars and aspects behaving in certain ways and performing differently in combat so i see no reason not to assume they are an individual piece of a whole. Although this idea would make the deity a bit schizophrenic.
Anyways back to the focus of the thread. I always envisaged Bane as being the ultimate force of overt evil in the Realms (not the bumbling fool in the books), a real badass who had Myrkul as his advisor and magical backup (when he was around) and Bhaal as his toy to unleash on the unfortunate.
If ever there was evil afoot in the Realms then Bane should be involved, and make him nasty and smart to boot. Im not saying he wont make mistakes and cant be beaten but he should be mean, go after the players when they get in his way (threaten and kill family for instance) and try to take over the world on a regular basis. |
| Lord Bane |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 18:25:57
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I never was a huge fan of Bane... And I think there's enough evidence in 3.X to suggest that Bane is still dead, and that Bane 2.0 is really Xvim in disguise.
Heretic! Thou shall face the Black Hands wrath!
I read your reasoning in the Return of Bane scroll but you canīt convince me with that
As for Bane being in the core, those are two different ones. Bane in FR is not Bane in the core setting (unless they reveal in 5th Edition that they are....)
I agree with you that we donīt need Asmodeus and Bane both as gods, there the simple solution is kicking the forketounged fiend back to the hells where he came from  |
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 18:02:42
I never cared for Xvim (I always refer to him as 'Invader Xvim", like the cartoon). However, if Bane 2.0 is really Xvim in disguise, it really makes no difference one way or the other.
I liked Bane from the beginning, but unfortunately he was 'taken from us' before I even stated running the Realms. I think the Batman Bane took from my like of FR Bane somewhat (and the movie just made it worse), and then the core Bane introduced in 4e really muddies the waters (because if he is a multispheric power, how was Szass Tam able to humble him?)
Thus, I think (for me), Bane 'lost is mojo' as the concept got watered down. I still like him, but probably not as much as I did when I first read the OGB. Also, in 4e, I think he becomes a bit to redundant with Asmodeus - we really don't need both. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 17:51:32
I never was a huge fan of Bane... And I think there's enough evidence in 3.X to suggest that Bane is still dead, and that Bane 2.0 is really Xvim in disguise. |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 14:17:36
I agree with Bane on the heresy being unnecessary, that is something more appropriate for someone like Cyric but not a calculating God like Bane.
Also Xvim was a pale shadow of his father , good riddance i say. |
| Lord Bane |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 10:05:56
My name should tell you that I very much like Bane.
*waving flags, cheerleaders, sacrifices of intelligent beings and all that*
He is as Thauranil said a good villain, i would go further and say he is THE villain when it comes to forces opposing heroes.
He is the calculating, scheming force that will plot your downfall and then move in to take your spot.
He has an agenda that is simple yet very effective in itīs message: Conquer all.
His totalitarian attitude gives you a reason as a hero to oppose him because he will destroy freedom and quench hope.
Yet on the other side, when your playing a villain he is the most ambitious and challanges you to think complex in order to achieve what he demands, control of everything.
I would disagree with you Sleyvas on the heresy part and the church splitting. I am very happy that 3rd Edition got ridd of the violent infighting for it was only self-defeating and hindering efforts to spread the influence of Bane what the Black Hand wants in first place, increasing his influence and thus power.
As for the Iyachtu Xvim = Bane theory, Bane has returned, he used his own son as means to returning from the dead.
What better display of hunger for power than sacrificing his own child in order to reign again?
The symbol showing Banes hand quenching the green light is a message. His might is going to hold the power that Iyachtu Xvim held firmly and yet at the same time shows that he is more powerfull than his son ever was. The change of colours symbolizes the light that burst from Iyachtu Xvim when Bane emerged from his sons body. It is the sign of Banes triumph over death.
Monotheism is a thing Bane dictates, if people only worship him, he gets power and nobody else. This means he grows in power and can overtake even more creatures who then again only worship him and so forth. It is means to domination. Shar doesnīt do well with the conqueror image imo and Cyric is a bad joke of a evil god.
I do not see him overused in his power, i would dare to say they are not giving him enough due for what he represents but that is my opinion on the subject.
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