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 Was Kiaransalee's name erased from the tablets

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sleyvas Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 23:56:32
One of the things that just came to mind is how Kiaransalee was "erased" from the realms (like had been done to Orcus). Now, we're finding out the tablets of fate were what were used to separate Abeir and Toril. Said tablets held the god's names and defined why they were there. So, it makes me wonder... was the spell essentially modifying the tablets of fate? Kiaransalee only a few years prior had done the same trick to Orcus.... is the only reason that this trick was even possible because of Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul's meddling with the tablets? When Kiaransalee's name was erased, did it just remove her access to the divine realm and she's been trapped somewhere. Not sure what exactly could be done with this yet, but it smacks of some kind of good story tool.
25   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Alystra Illianniis Posted - 04 Jan 2013 : 02:16:54
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

It was a literal event as far as the gods were concerned, but I felt it was meant to REFLECT what the mortals were doing in the Realms, not to DETERMINE what they did. In other words, the mortals were driving the game, not the gods. They were merely playing the game that their followers created with their actions, rather than driving those followers' actions with their moves.

I disagree here. IMHO it was clear that the mortals were the unwitting pawns and their actions were determined by deities moving their game pieces. E.g. Kia was surprised when Lolth moved one of her pieces to take her our instead of moving it against Elli.

Otherwise that would violate the "no mortal can slay a deity without divine backing rule".

Also why high magic can be pretty drastic, the really powerful effects require huge effort. Not some high mages coming together without any preparing and just whipping out a deity-slaying spell on the fly.

E.g. there was the immensely powerful high magic the elves one used to bind, not slay, Moander. It was a long and complicated ritual that required special components (among them they had to subdue an avatar or Moander and use it during the ritual), a lot of rare and components and the sacrifice of the life of the high mages. Seems rather unnecessary if they could just easily used their deity-slaying ritual and be done with it.



And yet, as CD pointed out, there were several times where the mortal "pawns" made moves that their "controllers" never expected, thus changing the nature of the game itself. Those were FREE-WILLED followers, not mere automatons that the goddesses were using for their pieces. They might have been able to guide their actions indirectly, but certainly not force them. Thus, I believe the "pieces" were actually in control of the game, with the goddesses merely playing out their actions after the fact. The game was being played on two levels here, not just the game the deities were playing.
MrHedgehog Posted - 03 Jan 2013 : 15:26:25

I assumed she became a demipower again once Lolth returned.

Her realms aspect disappearing does not mean she died. I do not think she has a corpse floating in the astral plane and she still exists in other worlds. That is what I get from the description of multi-spheric deities in Faiths and Pantheons.In the realms it seemed like she only had one major center of worship so it would be less difficult for magic to erase her from peoples' memories in the realms, especially if the spell was aided by other deities in some way. Ao was watching the Sava game thing so presumably he consented to it being a fight to the death, perhaps he bent the rules for their grudge match that would not match how things normally work. Kiaransalee is described as being short sighted in Dead Gods. It seems like she is self destructively careless and impulsive so she probably isn't as prepared for things like this as other Gods would be.
Mirtek Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 18:44:42
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

In the Realms, Kiaransalee was still only a demipower after slaying Orcus. It was not until Lolth went into hibernation that there was sufficient worship for the Revenancer to ascend to lesser power status.

And that was the point when she was slain. The latest realmsource about her, that web enhancement to some of the war of the spider queen adventures, had her as a lesser power.

Anyway, even a demipower would take some time to starve if you cut her from all followers, not vanish in an instant.
Bladewind Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 12:36:36
Didn't Kiaransalee wax and wane in power alot? Her ascension by absorbing all life on Threnody must have made her quite powerful, even for a god. I thought I read her power in Fearun is lacking because of her interest for her clergy in the Underdark is nigh on absent.
LordofBones Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 10:41:44
In the Realms, Kiaransalee was still only a demipower after slaying Orcus. It was not until Lolth went into hibernation that there was sufficient worship for the Revenancer to ascend to lesser power status.

Mirtek Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 07:41:26
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

It was a literal event as far as the gods were concerned, but I felt it was meant to REFLECT what the mortals were doing in the Realms, not to DETERMINE what they did. In other words, the mortals were driving the game, not the gods. They were merely playing the game that their followers created with their actions, rather than driving those followers' actions with their moves.

I disagree here. IMHO it was clear that the mortals were the unwitting pawns and their actions were determined by deities moving their game pieces. E.g. Kia was surprised when Lolth moved one of her pieces to take her our instead of moving it against Elli.

Otherwise that would violate the "no mortal can slay a deity without divine backing rule".

Also why high magic can be pretty drastic, the really powerful effects require huge effort. Not some high mages coming together without any preparing and just whipping out a deity-slaying spell on the fly.

E.g. there was the immensely powerful high magic the elves one used to bind, not slay, Moander. It was a long and complicated ritual that required special components (among them they had to subdue an avatar or Moander and use it during the ritual), a lot of rare and components and the sacrifice of the life of the high mages. Seems rather unnecessary if they could just easily used their deity-slaying ritual and be done with it.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 05:06:04
Especially considering the pieces got away from them sometimes, and the two goddesses were surprised by the moves of their followers.
Alystra Illianniis Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 02:20:34
It was a literal event as far as the gods were concerned, but I felt it was meant to REFLECT what the mortals were doing in the Realms, not to DETERMINE what they did. In other words, the mortals were driving the game, not the gods. They were merely playing the game that their followers created with their actions, rather than driving those followers' actions with their moves.
MrHedgehog Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 02:13:56
The Sava board game seemed like a metaphor not a literal event to me? Your explanation would make sense though, Mirtek. I wonder if that is what Lisa Smedman and the powers that be had in mind.
Mirtek Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 21:12:28
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
but it has been canonicaly stated that the Eldest is more powerful then Ao (and yeah, none of us likes that, but it is what it is).
Really? AFAIR he has been stated in the novel to be of demigod power

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I do strenuously object to using High Magic that way, though, and also to it being that easy for mortals to take out a deity.


I personally believe the deities were only killed because they agreed to bind their fate to their divine boardgame, not because anything the paltry mortals did.

IMO that's backed up by Selvetarm still standing with the other two in their game room after his supposed decapitation and only vanishing as his piece was taken from the board.

Same with Kia's fate, because even assuming that pretentious High Magic trick could do what it claimed, that wouldn't have killed a deity instantly. It would have started the long process of "divine starvation" during which Kia would slowly slide back through the divine ranks. As lesser power, that should take decades, if not centuries

Alystra Illianniis Posted - 09 Dec 2012 : 03:35:44
As an aside, it was noted by another poster that the drow who followed Eilistraee and lived on the surface would face a schism between those who got changed and those who were "tainted". However, this is not the case. ALL those who followed her were changed, whether pure Miyeritar blood or not. The Miyeritari drow were simply ALSO among the transformed drow. That was part of the point, IIRC. They were distancing themselves from the Lolthites and all others by converting back to what they were meant to be. As a side note, this would have also made them no longer a target of Sheverashans, BASED ON APPEARACE ALONE. In other words, there would no longer be any question of who was who. "Dark" elf= safe, Drow=enemy. That was part of the reason for the ritual- to show once and for all which side they were on. Granted, there would have been some casualties in the Underdark, but I'm guessing that Quilue had some kind of information network in place to warn the ones below to get out of Dodge before the killing started. In fact, IIRC, her followers had already mostly convened in the Promenade temple, so there probably weren't many straglers to begin with.

TBeholder Posted - 07 Dec 2012 : 15:08:42
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil

First of all the drow might not be able to cast High magic spells but Dark elves are perfectly capable, why shouldn't they be. They are as elvish as any sun elf or moon elf. Drow cant cast them because they cannot ever trust each other sufficiently.
The first, exactly that - drow were changed to the degree that they got SLA and for their arcane magic used normally the surface was one big wild zone, and then changed again to remove incompatibilities, but SLA and resistance remained. At this point they aren't what they once were, while HM requires jumping through hoops in the "ideal" circumstances and with perfectly appliable and up-to-date lore.
The second is confusion of the arguments. If they can't use High Magic at all for some all-encompassing reason (like not being eligible users), answers on other, more limited (see also: rituals of Solitude) reasons doesn't help until the first problem is removed.

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Killing Lolth would've brought on the drow another WotSQ-like cataclysm (you know, mages vs priestesses, other races trying to destroy the drow), leading to yet another huge bloodshed, as drow minds' wouldn't be changed by the simple death of Lolth
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Eilistraee achieved basically nothing. Sacrificing to redeem only a very small part of all the drow means simply turning her back to the vast majority of the dark elves, because they were supposedly ''unwilling'' to redeem (which makes no sense), leaving them without a beacon of hope to guide them to freedom.
I.e. her first goal is to make the drow want changes. And until they move in this direction far enough to shift the balance of power everywhere, Lolth's theocracy is the only thing standing between most drow settlements and fates of either Ched Nasad, or Chaulssin, or Golothaer and Telantiwar - take your pick.
Which on top of "I'm too lucky to die!" approach makes the deal more like "bet your own existence and any chance to fix things - against... a near-extinction of prospective converts in case you win". So, ah, the sheer divine genius of this plan continues to skillfully evade my vision.

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

I think the events--namely the "brown" drow, if you will--should be addressed. I've read nothing about them in 4e. But to suddenly say the transformation never haven't would be a retcon, wouldn't it?
...and we can't have this.
quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn

I was under the impression that the "brown drow" you are referring to are represented by the elves in 4e FR. If you check out second edition and third edition resources, you will find that elves in FR are never mentioned with dark colored skin although they did have some odds skin tones with hints of blue or green.
Green elves get bark-brown and Gold reach darker bronze hues, IIRC.
But as to "brown drow", this was back in 2e Cormanthyr - drow reverted to "dark elf" proper status (via High Magic ritual) become "black" as in a dark-brown-skinned human as opposed to "black" as in obsidian of a drow or variations thereof. Radiation magic affinity and other such properties go away too, of course ("judge as a moon elf").
Chosen of Asmodeus Posted - 28 Oct 2012 : 13:46:53
On the subject at hand; I hope not. I honestly do hope that Kiaransalee returns, if only so that Orcus may have his terrible and well deserved vengeance against the upstart.

Come to think of it, how'd she get lucky enough to survive his little rampage with the Final Word, anyway?
Chosen of Asmodeus Posted - 28 Oct 2012 : 13:25:29
quote:
Elves are slender, athletic folk about as tall as humans. They have the same range of complexions as humans, tending more toward tan or brown hues. A typical elf ’s hair color is dark brown, autumn orange, mossy green, or deep gold. Elves’ ears are long and pointed, and their eyes are vibrant blue, violet, or green. Elves have little body hair, but they favor a wild and loose look to their hair.


4e's players handbook, page 41.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 28 Oct 2012 : 03:17:00
That's possible, but I remember in LP those who performed the high magic ritual (Q'arlynd and co) became dark elves with brown skin and black hair. The same thing happened to people like Cavatina (even though she was dead when it happened). I haven't read anything in 4e that makes a mention of "dark skinned non-drow elves". Can you point me in the direction of that information?
Tarlyn Posted - 27 Oct 2012 : 23:52:00
quote:
Were the drow NOT changed? I've shared my opinions on the change in other threads, but I'm curious. I'm all for E and V coming back (and I sincerely hope the Sundering makes it so the gods can't off each other so easily), and I think the events--namely the "brown" drow, if you will--should be addressed.


I was under the impression that the "brown drow" you are referring to are represented by the elves in 4e FR. If you check out second edition and third edition resources, you will find that elves in FR are never mentioned with dark colored skin although they did have some odds skin tones with hints of blue or green. In 4e FR, they make specific mention of the dark skinned non-drow elves.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 27 Oct 2012 : 22:54:44
I enjoyed the LP series, though yes, there were problems (I was not happy with the death of E and V. K...eh, she was interesting, but I wasn't as depressed). But are we supposed to completely disregard the events that happened in those since they apparently weren't canon? Were the drow NOT changed? I've shared my opinions on the change in other threads, but I'm curious. I'm all for E and V coming back (and I sincerely hope the Sundering makes it so the gods can't off each other so easily), and I think the events--namely the "brown" drow, if you will--should be addressed. I've read nothing about them in 4e. But to suddenly say the transformation never haven't would be a retcon, wouldn't it? If the events weren't supposed to happen, then how did the LP series get published?

A note about E's realm: from my understanding, while not directly part of Arvandor, it is pretty close to it, if I remember correctly. It wouldn't have been that big of a jump for the souls of Eilistraeen's followers to go from her realm into Arvandor.

Wow, this thread wasn't under active topics yesterday when I looked, but it is today, and it was apparently started in August. I really wished I'd discovered this site sooner.
TBeholder Posted - 26 Oct 2012 : 03:53:43
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Holy crap, 22%/10%... These many goodly drow kind of diminish the reason to find the struggle represented by Eilistraee intriguing. WotC shouldn't have removed Eilistraee or Vhaeraun (or the other drow deities) from canon, but they should simply have toned down their influence.
Good or neutral.
As to hthe numbers, that's about what's needed to be a credible threat, not just a punching bag.
Vhaerun probably got slightly more, especially in the non-exclusive part - what with thieves, all those grumpy drow males, hiding in the Lolthite communities and not insisting on radical changes right now.
Markustay Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 04:13:37
I did it this way, as a rule of thumb -

Deities receive 'worship points' (WP) from their followers each day. The total of all these points helps maintain a god at a certain level. Even if they were exhaust most of their power doing something, within 24 hours they would be up to snuff again. This is why having worshipers is important - it almost acts in the same way regeneration works for mortals.

So my basic rule of thumb is that a person provides their patron deity with their level in worship points each day. That way, more powerful worshipers become very important. This is an automatic thing. On holy days this doubles, and on 'High Holy Days' it triples. For every four hours spent inside a temple worshiping it resets (so the deity gets the points again). In a major cathedral/main temple of the church, this can be reduced to just three hours. On a holy day this is reduced by an additional hour, and on a High Holy Day by two hours. This means on a High holy Day, every hour of worship spent in a major cathedral provides the god the character's level in WP (which is why some gods want 24 hour services on such days).

Performing a task in association with a deities portfolio (whether you worship them or not) provides the deity with with a number of points = how many 4-hour periods spent on task. Each prayer (not just saying the name) to a deity provides +1 points. Each ritual performed provides 1-5 points, depending on the importance of the ritual,and when it is performed. All multipliers for temples and holy days apply (except prayer - thats too be expected inside a temple or on a Holy Day).

I actually use none of the math - I just do this to get a rough idea on how deities get their power, and how they use it. For instance, they expand these points whenever they send a priest spells. Spells cost the god the spell's level in WP (so you can see how this would add up quickly). Also, deities use this power to do 'god stuff' (use their divine powers). Like I said, Its not meant to be an actual system, but rather, just a mental exercise to picture how divine energy is moved around.

Thus, a devout low-lev worshiper could provide as much power to their deity as a level 20 'rock star', but if the devout worshiper IS a rock star, then so much the better - the numbers increase exponentially.

Alystra Illianniis Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 03:50:55
Ah, thank you for that lovely bit of insight! I wish I'd thought to say it myself. For game purposes, the only thing that should matter is how well "known" they are, or how fervant their followers actually are. For example, a god who is payed lip-service by an entire nation should not have as much power as one who is devoutly revered by a single city. The more places a deity is known and devoutly followed, the stronger he/she should be, regardless of how many people are actually in those places. Makes more sense than just "I have more followers than you, so I"m stronger, nyah!"
Aryalómë Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 03:39:43
I don't think number of worshipers should determine a deity's power level. Indeed, a power level for a deity is a foolish concept of itself. Real world gods are not bound by this concept. Gods are gods.
Alystra Illianniis Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 03:00:42
I don't think it would be less intense or diminish their character. If anything, a full confrontation would strengthen their resolve, and make them even more important, because they would be fighting their most important battle. The one to save the drow race. Add in the various aspect of dealing with followers of Vaerhaun and the rest, and it becomes a really intriguing and epic tale. You referred to them and her as a beacon of hope, but that's just it. Beacons only work if they are FOLLOWED. A light does no good if no one ever sees it. By increasing their numbers, it would provide a greater chance of Lolth's followers to see and follow that light. I'd actually like to see them finally get the nerve- and numbers- to confront the Lolthites directly. Maybe not everywhere, but perhaps in at least one major settlement- there are plenty of cities that have never been detailed, and using one of them would also be a good chance to add new lore to the FR. Win-win.

As for the former Lolthites, there was a good part in the WotSQ books that dealt with that very idea. Sure, some of the Lolthites converted to Eil out of oportunism, but what starts that way, often ends up as a true conversion- like Hallistra's was (at least until Lolth stepped in directly and began to twist her mind). She really DID convert, even though she was eventually pulled back in by trickery. The fact that she had been twisted into something horrible didn't help, either. Sure, some of them might turn back, but I think that many WOULD begin to understand what they had been missing (as you mentioned), and it would end up as a true conversion. YMMV, of course, but once someone gets a glimpse of what they've been denied, it often stays with them for life. That's the point, I think, it's what's at the heart of her message. That they HAVE been denied something, and Lolth has lied to them. That's not something one just shakes off.

Keep in mind that in order to convert in the first place, they would have to have learned something of Eil and her faith and followers. Not easy to do in a drow city where Lolth rules. They would have had to have contact with drow who were already devoted to her- which would, indeed, show them what life without Lolth could be like. Heck, Liriel did just that- and SHE did it purely by accident! She was half-ready to convert after just one meeting with them, although granted she had only just begun her training as a priestess of Lolth. Still, the fact that she was already indoctrinated enough to threaten to kill Fyodor just for accidentally killing a spider says something about how easy it is to truly convert a drow who has never known anything else. And then there are/were the many males who had somehow managed to form their own little following of Vaerhaunites right under the noses of the Matrons of Menzo. Ryld and Phaeraun nearly joined them, and their rebellion very nearly took down Lolth's rule in that city. f not for the outside invasion pulling them together, there might have been a very different outcome.
Tarlyn Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 02:39:25
I actually preferred 3e CS on the state of drow in the realms. There were several locations that housed surface colonies of relatively small, but growing communities of non-lolth following drow. Of course, none of those groups had earned the trust of any of the other surface races, so the whole racism against drow still came in to play. However, there was more than just another matriarchal Lolth ran city again. As I have noted elsewhere, I like the idea of a surface drow city that is more neutral in tone that has the various drow clerical organizations competing for influence with the people.

I would complete support the 4e stance of returning drow to their roots and Drizzt being the one sole exception to the rule. However, once you start printing player's guides that encourage player characters to be drow, it is vastly more interesting if there is more to being a drow than another two scimitar wielding crusader against his people. I like Drizzt don't get me wrong. However, having other drow power groups in no way prevents players from making drizzt clones and reliving that exact same Drizzt experience. It only provides more options. Also, I don't understand why the FR drow have to fall perfectly in line with the core drow. The Eberron drow don't include Lolth at all. I don't see why FR cannot have a little variety of its own. I won't want Lolth cut out of the picture, but competition doesn't hurt.
Irennan Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 01:49:09
Well, I'd surely be happy to see Eilistraee winning (I think it's pretty much clear at this point); what I mean is that her charm (and her followers') is in being underdogs and rebels struggling for their ideals. They're supposed to be very strong willed and tenacious in the fight for freedom: once they shattered the shackles of indoctrination, they'd realize how dark the situation of their race is, how overwhelming the adversities are and despite this they'd still stand by their decision and carry on their and the Dark Maiden's quest. As I said in another thread, they are like a beacon of hope that desperately tries to shine in the utter impenetrable darkness, their strength being the will to not give up in this apparently impossible battle.

If they started forming large groups and being a significant percentage of drow, their struggle wouldn't be as intense or emotive, the strength of character of each Eilistraeen would be somehow diminished (in the sense that each of them would be less special and significant) -- their fight would move from the individual and personal level to a (as you proposed) 'faction war' one. Personally, this is not what makes me like Eilistraee so much (it is more of a Vhaerunite thing).

About turning back to Lolth, this is indeed possible. Many drow joined the Eilistraeens during the silence because of opportunism. Lolth's indoctrination is really deep in drow mind and many of them could've seen the followers of the Dark Maiden and their offering of acceptance and a shelter merely as something to exploit. Many of the ones who joined during the silence didn't taste any actual freedom, because it can only come from understanding, and getting rid of the poisonous concepts of lolthite dogma is a very personal goal that can be achieved only by the individual, and which cannot be given by anyone (Eilistraee understands this, and it is her MO to guide and help the drow in finding their own path to freedom).


PS: Oh, and Lolth has clear ego issues (therefore, as you said, jealousy ones).
Alystra Illianniis Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 01:02:49
Why does that diminish it? Because she was actually "winning" for a change? Because more drow were getting the message? That makes NO sense to me. Sounds more like she was starting to build momentum, and Lolth was getting worried. And she(Lolth) SHOULD be. After the Silence, and all the chaos that it caused, she was starting to loose her hold on them already. Maybe if the other gods had just been patient and kept at it, they could have broken her hold entirely, over time. Wish cities like Sshamath around as an example, the drow would have started looking around for other ways to get what they wanted.

For that matter, why should they need to prune it back at all? Why not build up to some bigger conflict, like a war between the drow factions themselves? Alliances and betrayals by various groups would have made for a far more interesting story than what happened, I'll admit, and it would have created so much chaos and killed so many drow (on ALL sides) that they could have their "mysterious and rarely-seen" drow back again- because there would be so few left that they would have to have their own Retreat. Sounds like a winning plan to me. Eilistraee's gains in worshippers (And WHY would any of the former Lolthites go back after a taste of true freedom??!! THAT'S just ridiculous, IMO. Even Hallistra didn't truly go back to Lolth- she was tricked in the end into thinking Quilue/Eilistraee was a false image trying to trap her....) just showed that the stakes were rising, and as has been noted, Vaerhaun had also begun to gain more followers, and so did Kiaransalee and even Ghaunadaur- which just HAPPENED to be siphoning off power Lolth herself wanted. Someone(Lolth) has jealousy issues, methinks.....

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