| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Markustay |
Posted - 29 Apr 2012 : 18:47:58
So I've been pouring over my own cosmological thoughts - like usual - and am trying to wrap my mind around my latest version of my "theory of everything" (as it applies to D&D). I love the Gygaxian model for alignments, and its one of the most important things I think 4e did away with. At the same time, I understand the reasoning behind the 4e design team, and why they made their decisions.
Good is good. Doesn't matter if its chaotic or lawful, they are pretty-much all on the same side. LG and CG aren't even 'two sides of the same coin', they are the same side of the coin, behaving differently depending upon the situation, but working toward the same exact ends (for the most part).
But evil... thats another story. I can clearly see the difference between chaotic evil (thinking Far-Realmsian, inhuman type chaos), and Lawful evil, which is how most 'normal' evil types behave.
So instead of a cross-hair pattern I was picturing before for alignments, I'm now getting a triangle-shaped pattern - that 'good' is really all one camp, but evil is split into two distinct camps, and all three are equally powerful (which is why the Bloodwar is so important - fiends working together would soon overrun the 'forces of good').
I am woefully uninformed when it comes to the 4e lore - is that how they present it? What little I know - turning the Demons into corrupted elementals - seems to fit into my line of thinking.
And I'm no saying the 'heavens' should have both CG and LG alignments, but where mortals are concerned, it really doesn't matter so much. It becomes situational.
So here's how I see it - the celestials (counting ALL being from 'above', including gods) are trying to hold the world together, one way or the other, but promote 'peace & love' as a means to an end. The devils (counting ALL being from 'below', including deities) would also like to keep the universe together, but under their domination and for their own selfish ends (although some may be deluded into thinking the best thing for the world is to be ruled by them - a megalomaniac complex, like Doctor Doom or Bane). Ergo, I see 'tyranny' as the absolute crux of LE.
But Chaos is chaos - it is evil by its nature, not by design. It works toward the eventual goal of destroying the entire universe and rendering it back down to the primal soup it once was. It despises order in all its myriad forms. This means that celestials and devils would occasionally work together when chaos threatens existence itself. Beings of Chaos are not from 'above' or 'below', they are from 'outside'.
So the three points of the alignment-triangle would be 'pure', 'taint' (LE), and 'corruption' (CE). I am not sure if this would work in an RPG system - rules need balance, and its hard to do that when things don't have true opposites.
I am having some trouble fitting deities like Cyric and Loviatar into this model (insane LE?). If I go with this, ALL deities have to be lawful, because there are rules they must follow to be a deity in the first place, and are bound (lawfully) to their own portfolios.
Any thoughts? I'd like to know how everyone else sees this working, or am I barking up the wrong tree here? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Aryalómë |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 06:22:57
Personally, I just throw out the whole alignment system. I let my characters, the gods, and all other things' actions speak for themselves. If anything, I would only use: Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic. Good and evil are too subjective to different peoples to have a one set standard for what it means to everyone. I let the culture and/or race decide what is good and evil for them. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 06:08:50
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You actually can't have a society based around chaos - a 'Chaocrity' - its an Oxymoron. Anarchy is the correct term, and it implies no discernible society at all.
There's one---the Dasati, in Raymond E. Feist's Darkwar Saga. Their continued existence (spanning millenia) puzzled even Pug himself. Perhaps nature---or some unknown being or force---helps maintain their population despite their casual killings in a daily basis.
I wouldn't say the Dasati society was based on chaos, as much as it was chaotic with some structure -- much like drow society, in the Realms.
They are pretty much chaotic to me. The 'illusion' of order they had was only thanks to their rather sadistic 'god,' the Dreadlord.
I can't speak on the society you mentioned, since I don't know them, nor can I find any accessable sites on them. I suspect that, they follow as rigidly to social norms and expectations as the dark elves do.
Most, but not all. Expectations matter less to them than their own personal ambitions.
The loose or 'illusory' structure of their society would have crumbled, along with all of them, upon the Dread Lord's demise---had Pug and Company not chosen and trained someone to lead the new 'government.' |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 04 May 2012 : 05:37:35
Hahahaha...I knew I liked you a lot from the get go. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 04 May 2012 : 04:59:38
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You actually can't have a society based around chaos - a 'Chaocrity' - its an Oxymoron. Anarchy is the correct term, and it implies no discernible society at all.
There's one---the Dasati, in Raymond E. Feist's Darkwar Saga. Their continued existence (spanning millenia) puzzled even Pug himself. Perhaps nature---or some unknown being or force---helps maintain their population despite their casual killings in a daily basis.
I wouldn't say the Dasati society was based on chaos, as much as it was chaotic with some structure -- much like drow society, in the Realms.
They are pretty much chaotic to me. The 'illusion' of order they had was only thanks to their rather sadistic 'god,' the Dreadlord.
I can't speak on the society you mentioned, since I don't know them, nor can I find any accessable sites on them. I suspect that, they follow as rigidly to social norms and expectations as the dark elves do. In this regard they, the dark elves, are quite lawful, just that the system of laws, social norms and such, are distinctly diferent from that which is common. Drizz is in respects more chaotic, by disregarding the society, and going to a surfice world, which he wasn't certain he could reach, and was quite certain he wouldn't be treated well in.
He is a truely Dedunic example of chaos using the dark elf society.
1. [If par then Dar] and Q(S or V) Trasverse assumption
2. Dar and (S or Q) 1 disjunction I.E
3. par and S and G 2. Demorgans.
Note, what is above is the symbolic form of what I have stated demonstrating it's validity. Soundness is still open, but it cannot be argued against on purely logical grounds. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 04 May 2012 : 04:23:10
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You actually can't have a society based around chaos - a 'Chaocrity' - its an Oxymoron. Anarchy is the correct term, and it implies no discernible society at all.
There's one---the Dasati, in Raymond E. Feist's Darkwar Saga. Their continued existence (spanning millenia) puzzled even Pug himself. Perhaps nature---or some unknown being or force---helps maintain their population despite their casual killings in a daily basis.
I wouldn't say the Dasati society was based on chaos, as much as it was chaotic with some structure -- much like drow society, in the Realms.
They are pretty much chaotic to me. The 'illusion' of order they had was only thanks to their rather sadistic 'god,' the Dreadlord. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 03 May 2012 : 17:45:14
So, they are going with a loose interpretation of Chaos, and not it’s Ilionic meaning. No Schitzoid personality then. That’s what I was thinking of… of course they couldn’t go that route. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 03 May 2012 : 14:53:03
Chaos doesn't mean a lack of unity, it simply implies a lack of organization.
If Chaos meant strictly a lack of unity, the Tanar'ri would have been destroyed long ago. They are united by strength/power, not by organization and laws. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 03 May 2012 : 05:06:08
Does anyone else find the phrase Queen of Chaos and united humerous.
I've not laughed so hard in days. So I suppose the creaters simply choice to include some aspects of the concept and not others. I'm not surprised. A little disapointed, but not surprised. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 03 May 2012 : 03:57:11
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
That is why the original designers* - in their infinite wisdom - made the numbers of demons infinite, while the numbers of devils are finite.
Because most of them never do what they are told, and if you invite a few billion demons to a battle, you'll be lucky if a few million bother to show up (and not attack EACH OTHER on sight).
A few of them might even switch to the devil's side, just on a lark.
So I, too, see your point (but we had balance - it was called the Bloodwar).
What if all the Alphas and Numerics were taken over by the symbols? (which would be aberrations in this analogy) Would they then form the Empire of ASCII? 
*Mostly by Gary and later Ed
LOL...we can just make the Symbols Neutrality! |
| Markustay |
Posted - 03 May 2012 : 03:50:59
That is why the original designers* - in their infinite wisdom - made the numbers of demons infinite, while the numbers of devils are finite.
Because most of them never do what they are told, and if you invite a few billion demons to a battle, you'll be lucky if a few million bother to show up (and not attack EACH OTHER on sight).
A few of them might even switch to the devil's side, just on a lark.
So I, too, see your point (but we had balance - it was called the Bloodwar).
What if all the Alphas and Numerics were taken over by the symbols? (which would be aberrations in this analogy) Would they then form the Empire of ASCII?
*Mostly by Gary and later Ed |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 03 May 2012 : 03:35:22
Ahhh Sightless, I understand where you are coming from.
However, there is a past instance where all of the Chaotic Evil of the Abyss was indeed focused on one target! The Age Before Ages as it is called happened before the Gods were the primary shapers of things mortal.
In fact, today, the Gods are actually not the dominate force in the Outer Planes! Despite the number of Gods that live within the Abyss (and other outer planes), their domains there are small compared to the true rulers of the Abyss. Few Gods actually rule an entire layer of the Infinite Layers of the Abyss...few indeed. The true driving might of the Abyss today is the Tanar'ri, and only some of them follow the dictates of a God.
So powerful are some of them in fact, that Graz'zt actually felt quite secure holding Waukeen hostage; and I don't recall that she has done a damned thing in retribution for her imprisonment by him after the Time of Troubles! And if she has, it obviously hasn't had much accomplished against the Lord of THREE layers of the Abyss. Three infinite layers of the Abyss.
Just as the Queen of Chaos was capable of uniting the forces of the Abyss before...she could do it again!
You see, the Queen of Chaos is actually from an alternate Multi-Verse! The Obyriths are much more powerful and dangerous than folks realize. They once dominated their original Multi-Verse and essentially caused its destruction. Fashioning an artifact of horrific might, they sent it into the Multi-Verse of Faerun; where it was found by the being Tharizdun...and Tharizdun used that artifact to create the Abyss from which the few Obyrith that remained emerged.
Once in the reality of Faerun's Multi-Verse they did battle against the Primordials, and caused many of those beings to become corrupted and become Lords of the Abyss as well! Beings like Orcus are good examples of beings that were once Primordials. Orcus most likely was a Primordial of Life Destruction or some such, and thus his affinity for Undeath and his ability to continue to come back; he is a Primordial.
There are several beings that are considered simply "Demon Lords" that are in fact Obyriths: Dagon, Pale Night, The Queen of Chaos, Pazuzu, and others. Because the Obyriths desire to "feed" on the Multi-Verse they live within now, it might be that they would once again unite together and launch their war!
In the Abyss, might makes the Tyrant; and if even Pazuzu stopped biding his time and decided who he would support, the Abyss would quickly gather into a Horde again. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 03 May 2012 : 02:09:12
Yes, but that requires something, which to me, as far as I understand it, is impossible. CE, would have to unite. That goes against their nature to do so. It is possible for part of the entire position of Chaotic evil Gods to seek temporary deals is possible, but some of them, like orcs and goblins have been fighting each other for longer than most can remember. So while it’s more likely they would unite than let’s say they becoming chummy with the CGs for example, It’s not going to last for the necessary protracted war that what your emplying would require. Even more so, when followers get involved, which really complicates the issue. This is of course holding to the Isadadactic features of “Chaotic” and Evil” forming the breach of the “and” that is implied here by having both words together and holding that a God being of these elements, must at times, act in such a way that will be harmful to itself, to hold to these principles so long as it is part of these principles.
My point in my last post, which I think got lost in the shuffle, points have a tendency to do that, is that groups of beings don’t often behave in entirely group forms even when single categories hold (Gordon, 1986). There’s another thing to consider, which to me is just as interesting a possibility, behind the blantly obvious that most of the evil gods are also monsterious and arguably ugly, which is if enough followers of a God alter their alignment would a God be forced to alter there’s as well. If for instance, all the clerricks of the Orc War God, suddenly through gradual process became neutral God, would that impact the alignment of the God himself, as it’s power is bound by the followers. I’m working on something on part for my campaign that will probably rock the Orc pantheon, explain the whole war with elves, and a hundred things besides. Just need to get a few things corrected first. My problem isn’t my imagination, it’s keeping it within the bounds of reality that I cannot understand.
If anything above is unclear, ask questions, language after all is the most beautiful thing about being sentient.
|
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 03 May 2012 : 01:16:23
Its ok...I currently make my living tutoring english via Skype to students in China...so I can relate!
Look at things like this:
The Kingdom of Even Numbers really can't stand the Kingdom of Odd Numbers...because they are Odd!
However, the Kingdom of Even Numbers is strongly allied with the Kingdom of Vowels because they are not harsh sounding at all.
Meanwhile the Kingdom of Odd numbers, to spite the Kingdom of Even Numbers, has allied with the Kingdom of Consonants...not because they really like them; but to keep things at an even balance.
At another angle you find that the Kingdom of Vowels hates the harsh sounds of the Kingdom of Consonants; and the Kingdom of Consonants feels the Kingdom of Vowels is too soft!
This is the Cosmic Order as it is known!
One day, the Kingdom of Odd numbers decides to invade the Kingdom of Consonants simply because the Odders are...well, they are Odd.
As the Kingdom of Odd numbers does so and begins to win, the Kingdom of Vowels realizes there will be far fewer Alphas in the Cosmos if the Odd Numbers eradicate the Consonants...not to mention the fact that nobody will be able to speak if all the Consonants are gone! Not normally so warlike, the Vowels join the Consonants for the first time in Eons to fight.
The war begins to go the way of the Alphas, so much so in fact that the Kingdom of Even Numbers...despite their general dislike of the Odders...come to the obvious conclusion that if the Alphas win their war against the Odders, nobody will ever be able to count again!
To prevent this from happening, they actually go to war against their former allies the Vowels in an attempt to stabilize the Cosmos again!
Now, just replace the Even numbers with Chaotic Good and the Odd numbers with Chaotic Evil...while replacing the Vowels with Lawful Good and the Consonants with Lawful Evil.
In essence, the balance of the "Known Multi-Verse" relies upon their being a constant presence of certain forces...literally the Alignment (speaking toward balance) of the Multi-Verse depends on their existing beings that represent the balancing forces of the Multi-Verse's axial balancing directions...which are Law, Chaos, Good, Evil and Neutrality (with Neutrality being the true balance that is needed).
Hope that makes sense to everyone...because I just kinda blurted that outa my brain. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 02 May 2012 : 23:41:39
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
We are kinda off from alignments here, but I vaguely remember when first hearing about Miska that he seemed a lot like a certain three headed dog I know of...but replacing one head with a human head and the body with a spider.
So many three-headed animals to think about in mythology!
Back more on topic of alignments.
By thinking of the time when Law was against Chaos, and it was the primary struggle in the Multi-Verse, it made me realize that the "good vs. evil" theme that currently seems to dominate is relatively unstable.
Could it swing back the other way and once again the struggle between Law and Chaos could overshadow the good vs. evil debate?
What is the Chaotic Evil forces of the Abyss began to overwhelm the Lawful Evil forces of the Nine Hells? Wouldn't that give pause to the Lawful Neutral forces...making them think "are we next?" as they observed? Would they ally with the Lawful Evil fiends to push back Chaotic Evil?
Would the Chaotic Neutral forces then take affront at this alliance and join the Chaotic Evil? Would this escalate into the Lawful Good joining in as well as the Chaotic Good?
In modern terms of the Forgotten Realms...what would this do to the political structures that exist in Faerun? Would the Harpers, Red Wizards, Zhentarim, Cormyr and others be torn apart by such an "odd" war...in which even the Good Gods might war against each other?
I don't think that Chaotic nutrial would all join, like you think. Some would sit it out. Some would say it be better to join LE. And while I could see some Chaotic good going rogue and attacking LG, the majority would still go for Chaotic evil. There’s one thing though that confuses me, and perhaps it’s looking at this from an eastern perspective.
These two aren’t entirely separate entities, why has this conversation treated them as such?
It’s like saying, using personality as an example, being introverted/extroverted has more significance than whether you are imaginative or data driven. Please note, I spent most of my formative years in the far east, being born in the U.S. So, if what I just said seems off, that’s probably why.
|
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 02 May 2012 : 23:02:11
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, at least now we have a fix on his geneology.
Lolth was his momma, and Cerberus was the baby-daddy. 
I think Law vs Order is more of a 'cosmic thing', and Good vs Evil is more of a mortal thing. Just the way I see it...not entirely sure why.
I guess its because outside of Michael Moorcock's novels, mortals normally don't bother with the L/C axis. Now that I am digging deeper, and reading some Wiki's (to refresh my memories of the novels), his approach was rather strange; Chaos = Evil, but Law =/= Good. I think his methodology was along the lines of "too much of anything is not good".
I like his use of card-decks for a hierarchy - Knight, Queen, king - I am going to definitely use that (and the Dules of hell had to answer to the King of Swords - that could prove useful).
I also get more of chaos-vibe from obyriths then I do evil (still evil, but chaos seems to be their meat & potatoes). I mention this because the Queen of Chaos might actually be an obyrith (not in canon - just moving pieces around to see what fits).
The Queen of Chaos is specifically an Obyrith...she created the "first Tanar'ri" named Demogorgan. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 02 May 2012 : 22:47:08
Well, at least now we have a fix on his geneology.
Lolth was his momma, and Cerberus was the baby-daddy.
I think Law vs Order is more of a 'cosmic thing', and Good vs Evil is more of a mortal thing. Just the way I see it...not entirely sure why.
I guess its because outside of Michael Moorcock's novels, mortals normally don't bother with the L/C axis. Now that I am digging deeper, and reading some Wiki's (to refresh my memories of the novels), his approach was rather strange; Chaos = Evil, but Law =/= Good. I think his methodology was along the lines of "too much of anything is not good".
I like his use of card-decks for a hierarchy - Knight, Queen, king - I am going to definitely use that (and the Dukes of hell had to answer to the King of Swords - that could prove useful).
I also get more of chaos-vibe from obyriths then I do evil (still evil, but chaos seems to be their meat & potatoes). I mention this because the Queen of Chaos might actually be an obyrith (not in canon - just moving pieces around to see what fits). |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 02 May 2012 : 22:10:59
We are kinda off from alignments here, but I vaguely remember when first hearing about Miska that he seemed a lot like a certain three headed dog I know of...but replacing one head with a human head and the body with a spider.
So many three-headed animals to think about in mythology!
Back more on topic of alignments.
By thinking of the time when Law was against Chaos, and it was the primary struggle in the Multi-Verse, it made me realize that the "good vs. evil" theme that currently seems to dominate is relatively unstable.
Could it swing back the other way and once again the struggle between Law and Chaos could overshadow the good vs. evil debate?
What is the Chaotic Evil forces of the Abyss began to overwhelm the Lawful Evil forces of the Nine Hells? Wouldn't that give pause to the Lawful Neutral forces...making them think "are we next?" as they observed? Would they ally with the Lawful Evil fiends to push back Chaotic Evil?
Would the Chaotic Neutral forces then take affront at this alliance and join the Chaotic Evil? Would this escalate into the Lawful Good joining in as well as the Chaotic Good?
In modern terms of the Forgotten Realms...what would this do to the political structures that exist in Faerun? Would the Harpers, Red Wizards, Zhentarim, Cormyr and others be torn apart by such an "odd" war...in which even the Good Gods might war against each other? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 02 May 2012 : 21:59:15
Actually, I didn't even think about her - Lolth is/was known as "the Demon-Queen of Spiders". Since you (and the Wiki) said Miska is/was a prince, I just thought I'd roll with the royalty angle (two five-letter names, both demons that have spider-tauric forms, etc).
@Wooly - thats what I was picturing as well, until I read that wiki entry. I think I would like him to have just the one wolf head (more like a wolf-human blend, which would look a bit elvish) |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 02 May 2012 : 21:39:12
@Markustay: The Queen of Chaos still rules a layer of the Abyss, the "Steaming Fen" and is quite seperate from Lolth. She in fact is the very being responsible for making the Tanar'ri what they are...she made Demogorgan first, but threw him into the pits when he became too unruly to control. It is said she took Miska and made him Prince of Demons...a vassal to her own Obyrith race; but she didn't actually create him. She is the one that started the creation of the Tanar'ri by using the souls of the Chaotic Evil dead, and quite likely this was her reason for invading the Inner and Prime Planes to increase her strength against the forces of Law.
I can't remember the specific plane the Queen of Chaos rules (the 14th I think???)...but in the readings I have, she (like many of the Obyrith Lords) actually wasn't even from the Abyss! I think she was from Limbo, or Pandemonium...but I think it was the former.
Miska comes from a particular race of fiend called the Spyder-Fiends...and I don't know if they are considered Tanar'ri or not.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 May 2012 : 21:34:41
I know Miska's physical description... But before he was detailed, I pictured a large spider with a wolf's head. I'll also point out that in the real world, the wolf spider is a fairly common breed of spider. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 02 May 2012 : 20:37:42
I do not know where you are located, sightless, but we used to have a blind member of the Science Fiction Forum when I went to Stonybrook (SUNY) college - we had a huge collection of scify/fantasy material, and we took turns weekend nights make audio tapes of everything (for the girl in our group, but multiple copies were made). I'm sure they must still have some of that stuff around - they never throw anything away.
She was great RPG player as well... and someone had to date Fred. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 02 May 2012 : 20:14:59
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I was just thinking Zenassu may have been a Faerunian aspect of Miska, is all. I never really looked into Miska before - I find it facinating he looks very similar to a drider (with two wolf-heads glued onto either side of his main head).
I've been toying with some word play after reading some stuff in another thread: That 'Lithaar' may have been a realm in Faerie dark elves came from, and that folk from there were called Lithaari. There would have been a mix of green (sylvan) elves there, and the ones that were ruthless, hedonistic, and cunning could have formed the branch known as Il(dark)-lithaari, and the ones that didn't were simply lithaari, and those eventually became known as the lythari..
That would mean the lithaari elves (all wild/Gruagach in the beginning) would have been prone to take wolf form, similar to the Elves in the Elfquest series. Somewhere along the way, the Ilithaari lost this - possibly during the Crown wars (the gift was stripped from them), or after the descent curse.
I really need to know which direction Mark Sehestedt took the Lythari Elves to see if this conjecture s feasible - this would mean the drow lost so much more then we realized.
BTW, it was Erik Boyd's thread, and his talking about Illefarn that made me realize 'Il' must be an elven prefix for something. 'le could be a linking consonant (English doesn't have those) that implies past tense (hence, 'darkened'). 'Efarn' could then be a term for a type of forest - perhaps 'wood-home'. Ergo, Ilefarn could mean "Dark forest where the people dwell".
Egads... I high-jacked my own thread! 
Anyhow, there is running theme here - driders are associated with lolth, and Tlincalis (stingers/scorpiomenm) are associated with Tiamet (in myth), and now we have a demon takeing a similar form - I bet Miksa was something else (a gaurdinal?) that was punished by some god. Note that all the Creator races were bipedal - perhaps that form was consider 'next generation' from something even more primordial? Perhaps the draconic 9and other) pantheons take offense to the two-leggedness of the universe today?
Just some more random thoughts out of a partially(?) deranged mind. 
I don't know enough to say this with anything more than a guess. but the two verses four legs is probably a hold over from Gurshdad, which JRRT's stuff was heavily based on. In most cases, beings with two legs were superior to those with more, the exception being hounds and horses. I'll comment on the language thing later, as my theories on that require me to have "Shirnomin" present.
My brail library of things before I was born is quite extensive, it was after that's the problem. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 02 May 2012 : 20:05:24
My train of thought was a bit chaotic there.
My point was that there could possibly be another dark elf/spider connection - I associated the two wolf heads with a lythari (that has been transformed into a hideous demon). Thats why I brought up the stuff about Ilithaar/Lythari (I forgot to make the connection).
What if there is some 'cosmic rule' about drow-turned-demon being called by a five-letter name? Or better yet, what if those are titles - what if Lolth means 'queen', and Miska means 'prince' - perhaps it was a joke on the part of the Tanarri to address them thusly.
And to take this one step further, could Miska be yet-another child of Lolth's? 
One she has has forsaken, or simply chooses to ignore for whatever reason? Or could Miska be a GH version of Selvatram?
There is a running theme here, which relates back to the topic (thankfully). Suppose the natural structure of things is for all divine beings - gods, primordials, celestials, etc - to all live 'in the Heavens'. In K-T/Oriental mythology, 'Oni' are considered demons (by our western standards), but in reality they are all 'servants of the heavens' (the Celestial Bureaucracy). Ergo, all beings serve some sort of 'master plan', or are at least are supposed to. 'Oni' could simply be a catch-all for 'servitors' (servants of the gods). We see by the lore in Fiendish Codex II that this is not only plausible, its canon - devils once served the gods (and many still do).
So you have this great group of cosmic beings that has a way things are supposed to be run - the universe itself. Then you have a bunch of 'slackers' who don't do their jobs right, or use their powers for selfish ends. That second group is made-up of beings that "displeased the gods", so they got their pink-slips.. in other words, were CAST OUT. This works for all evil types - demons, devils, dark gods, Drow deities, etc, etc. Basically, they are forced to live in the 'cosmic slums' of the universe (its dark underbelly). In nearly every single case, the being is physically changed when its cast from the heavens and turned into a fiend - the etymology of that word means 'to hate', and 'enemy'... interesting. Their outward appearance mirrors the ugliness within.
Lets go back to Miska - what if he was one of the lords of the Ilithaar when they made war on the other elves? He may have attained enough power (through veneration) to become a demi-power (or Lolth could have even made him a Chosen), but because of his nature he was unwelcome by the Seldarine, and he was sent to the Abyss with the other rejects.
So devils could be the ones that are tainted, but still try to help maintain the system (or status-quo). Demons are the ones that have just said screw-it and just like messing-up anything lawful out of spite. What that means is that the two groups are the same in essence - members of 'the fallen' - but have fallen for different reasons: Devils because they were selfish, or arrogant, etc, and demons just because they refused to obey the rules. Thus, devils become more about sin, and demons become more about having a 'good time' without considering the consequences (and a good time for a demon means a bad time for everyone else).
If I use the business model for the cosmos again, and think of it as a corporation, the devils are the guys trying to claw their way to the top by whatever means necessary (and would gladly throw co-workers under the bus), but the demons are the slackers - the guys who hide instead of getting their work done. They are the cosmic equivalent of those people you always see at the water-cooler, or in the breakroom, or punching-in 15 minutes late on a regular basis.
But in the end, they are all - even the slackers - working for the same company, and are part of 'the system' (even if they spend more time breaking the rules then obeying them). The Aberrations, on the other hand, work for some other company - they are an unknown quantity. They don't break the rules - the rules don't even apply to them.
I guess that means the Bloodwar is what happens when too many people get drunk at the company picnic. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 02 May 2012 : 18:20:48
Depending on the source, Mishka existed before the Gods even came to be. Other sources contradict this of course. Mishka was finally defeated on the Fields of Pesh. That is where White Plume Mountain is on Oerik, and the imprisonment of him is actually what caused the Great Rift to come into being!
I like your idea though, especially regarding his exile/punishment as a Guardinal that fell into the clutches of the Queen of Chaos and was transformed into the first Prince of Demons! I like that a lot in fact. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 02 May 2012 : 17:59:38
I was just thinking Zenassu may have been a Faerunian aspect of Miska, is all. I never really looked into Miska before - I find it facinating he looks very similar to a drider (with two wolf-heads glued onto either side of his main head).
I've been toying with some word play after reading some stuff in another thread: That 'Lithaar' may have been a realm in Faerie dark elves came from, and that folk from there were called Lithaari. There would have been a mix of green (sylvan) elves there, and the ones that were ruthless, hedonistic, and cunning could have formed the branch known as Il(dark)-lithaari, and the ones that didn't were simply lithaari, and those eventually became known as the lythari..
That would mean the lithaari elves (all wild/Gruagach in the beginning) would have been prone to take wolf form, similar to the Elves in the Elfquest series. Somewhere along the way, the Ilithaari lost this - possibly during the Crown wars (the gift was stripped from them), or after the descent curse.
I really need to know which direction Mark Sehestedt took the Lythari Elves to see if this conjecture s feasible - this would mean the drow lost so much more then we realized.
BTW, it was Erik Boyd's thread, and his talking about Illefarn that made me realize 'Il' must be an elven prefix for something. 'le could be a linking consonant (English doesn't have those) that implies past tense (hence, 'darkened'). 'Efarn' could then be a term for a type of forest - perhaps 'wood-home'. Ergo, Ilefarn could mean "Dark forest where the people dwell".
Egads... I high-jacked my own thread!
Anyhow, there is running theme here - driders are associated with lolth, and Tlincalis (stingers/scorpiomenm) are associated with Tiamet (in myth), and now we have a demon takeing a similar form - I bet Miksa was something else (a gaurdinal?) that was punished by some god. Note that all the Creator races were bipedal - perhaps that form was consider 'next generation' from something even more primordial? Perhaps the draconic (and other) pantheons take offense to the two-leggedness of the universe today?
Just some more random thoughts out of a partially(?) deranged mind. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 02 May 2012 : 17:32:28
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Thus proving ALL D&D canon is FR canon. 
I wonder if Miska was related to Zenassu, the Spider-demon Lolth absorbed.
Actually, Mishka was imprisoned within Pandemonium...a place in the Forgotten Realms known as The Supreme Throne.
A place Matt James has said he is exploring...and from which much can be thought...
Pandemonium/The Supreme Throne is the plane of Chaos unleashed; evil is a secondary force there.
Mishka's Prison was in Pandemonium, and his fate was to be decided in the Boxed Set Super "Module" the Rod of Seven Parts.
It is entirely up to the individual DM to determine how that went. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 02 May 2012 : 05:13:15
A picture's worth a thousand words, but now I shall be utterly frank, without eyes to see it with, to me that page is blank.
Original sin was the anti-thysis to Gods, the creator, s thesis. Hegels model is that the slow is what leads to eventual perfection. God had to introduce choice in order to allow worship to happen. If you truly loves me, then you’ll choose me, you of course know what the synthesis is, at least the first one. I’ll not say here, as it might spark a theological debate. I’ve been guilty of introducing philosophy and logic into my D and D games. Indeed, my DM is both looking forward to, and slightly dreading my intrence into the Silver Marches campaign, as he knows I’ll raise a few topics that will cause some entertaining discussions that will shake the comfort zones of a couple players. And if I’m right, they will actually enjoy the process. Here’s to finding out.
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| Markustay |
Posted - 02 May 2012 : 04:35:18
Yes, roleplay should trump alignment. Like all the other rules, its just a tool to be used or discarded when necessary.
My old system was similar to yours, sightless - I'm sorry you were unable to see the diagram I linked to - it has degrees along all four axis (really just two crossed lines with numbers running along them).
I think part of my problem was trying to think of Far-Realmsian creatures as chaotic, and then later (in the thread) lawful. They are neither, nor are they good or evil - they are outside and beyond all normal description... it simply doesn't apply.
It did help me understand chaos better - I was always associating it with evil (or an evil eviller then evil, as I said). Now I think its more along the lines of the force of life itself - this is why magic goes wild without the Weave - Life IS Chaos.
Your Hegelian model seems good - I will have to look into that. I can do some fun word-play with that (free will allows 'sin', hence a universe based on 'syn'ergy). Ergo, 'original sin'(syn) can be translated to mean mixing chaos with law - something unnatural and yet providing the spark of creativity (Now I'm leaning towards Quales Demiurge philosophy).
Anyhow, I like how 'synergy' sounds like 'sin energy' - I'll have to tinker with that some more. |
| EltonJ |
Posted - 02 May 2012 : 04:17:19
I think Alignment works for this type of game, but yes, there are times when you need to take it out. :)
Edit:
Sorry, I was having problems with a player. Alignment. alignment is good to start with, but there are other options that can help you to role-play. The traits and passions system from Pendragon is a good example of a different system.
However, in D&D it's pretty much a big deal. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 02 May 2012 : 03:50:38
quote:
Originally posted by idilippy
I was going to say what Irennan said, is chaos by nature evil? Chaos, in another context, is changing and evolving, it's being dynamic as opposed to static, it's freedom from dogmatism and a desire to be free from ties to tradition or ancestor worship: doing the same thing because that is the way it is always done. Chaos can lead to the development of new ideas and entirely new ways of thinking, tradition and order can lead to being unable to make decisive changes, of being so tied to the past that the present overpasses you.
Edit: I agree with Diffan too, Liberation is a good one for a chaotic good alignment, either that or Freedom maybe.
There’s one thing that no one has suggested, as far as I’ve heard thus far; which is to consider it all in this way. For good, Law and chaos are the two elements of the Hegelian model. Law is the Thesis, Chaos, the anti-thesis, and together they from the synthesis. Law without Good, is tyranny without mercy, it is the eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth law. It seeks to destroy chaos for it’s creation of instability. It is cold uncaring order. A lawfully good being therefore knows that Chaos is both in part to an extent natural, to a certain extent vital for orderly progress. Good however compels Chaos to serve in patterned forms, nature may be chaotic, but there is a pattern to the chaos, this is its beauty. A hurricane is a destructive force, but it doesn’t occur entirely by chance, one can see its formation, can understand the forces that drive it, can prepare for its destructive influences. In this way, beings that are good, whether lawful or chaotic, can by the character of their goodness completely work in harmony with one another.
Remove this goodness, and tyranny without restraint and chaos without restraint come into the picture. Another way of thinking about this system, one that I’ve devised, and my DM is considering is instead of these four being static, as they were in the past, make them continuous.
Law and chaos on one; Good and evil on the other.
A one through five, or one through seven systems would work well for this. For instance, a lawful neutral person could have a one on the lawful element, and a 3 on goodness. Meaning that they were a total zealot when it came to order, but of little concerned with the actual morality of another being. I find Chaotic Evil as it’s described something rather amusing, as most beings that are described as such do not actually act that way. The dark elves for instance have an extremely rigid society for a group that’s supposed to be chaotic evil. I’ll discuss these thoughts in greater detail as I listen to more, but at least what is here should give most a hint as to my opinion on the matter.
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