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T O P I C    R E V I E W
antilochus Posted - 30 Apr 2012 : 05:00:18
Hello
This is my first post, and I don't imagine that I will make a habit of it. I was brought into this forum at the suggestion of a friend who, after many, many years of my pushing, finally picked up some of my old Forgotten Realms novels and got into them in a big way. He's been posting a while and I have to admit I wanted my voice to be heard as well.

I'm just coming out of my twenties and was a Realms fan, pretty hardcore, from the tender age of 11, when I first picked up The Wyvern's Spur at a bookstore in South Korea. Although I had been reading DragonLance for six months or so, FR was something on another level completely, and so much more interesting. I was hooked from the first book and stayed a steady and devoted fan for the next 14 years.

I collected the novels and sourcebooks - notably Faiths and Avatars, the Draconomicon, and anything related to the cosomolgy of the FR multiverse from 1992 until about 2004. I was addicted.
Sometime in the early 2000s, the books were beginning to take on a diffferent flavour and were getting less interesting. Namely, instead of localized crises and incidents, everything had become a world shaking event. Naturally, big changes accompany these big events.

As my fantasy world changed irrevocably, as it seemed to me, I lost interest and stopped collecting avidly. When 4E came out and sank the Forgotten Realms (in my opinion, at least), I stopped buying entirely. I did make the mistake of buying the Manual of the Planes and a few of the novels one day - but i will get to that later.

Now that there are discussions underway on how to "fix" the realms, I thought to tender my two cents on this. Maybe the sheer logic and marketing sense will be appealing and do some good.

Let me preface what follows with this statement: I'm not a hardcore nerd for the game itself, or even much of a nerd at all, but I am an intelligent and devoted fan of what the Realms once were. Moreover, and perhaps most importantly, I was buying the products as a member a very desirable marketing segment of the population at large. I am a college gradute and professional with disposable income to spare.

What follows are 6 major points with subs that I think must be addressed for 5E to prosper:

1: The cosmology must be fixed. The changes which I saw in the Manual of the Planes disgusted me. Bounded planes, the disposal of the thought provoking great wheel cosmology (in which Sigil's shape and access to the planes actually has a meaning), and the introduction of the Far Realm and etc were disastrous. It was, for all intents and purposes, the same as changing the laws of physics in our universe. Many concepts and "facts" of the Realms no longer have meaning in an altered cosmology, and the band-aids thrown in to make sense of the changes were horrifically insufficient. I should spew a stream of invectives regarding the shadowfell and feywild at this point, but I hardly think that necessary for anyone who loves the FR setting. They speak for themselves.

1A: No more far realm. Were limitless planes of every description too mundane? I found this a trite addition that spoke volumes about the mindset of the people in charge of the development of the product. It smacked of the late 90s when everything was marketed as "extreme" with some minor and pointless addition to an existing product and the price hiked up by 20%. How unimaginative. How passe.

2: Fix the pantheons. I was initially drawn to the FR multiverse for its varied and very "grey area" pantheons. It had all the flavour of Norse, Greek, and Babylonian mythology without stealing too directly (ok, barring Mulhorand and Unther, but we all cut corners somewhere). Mythology is a staple of human life, and a complex fantasy mythology was utterly fascinating. The exarch and whatnot version of this is lacking in imagination, complexity, and basic sense.

2A: Do away with the primordials. As above, the mythology was original and complex as it existed. Borrowing jotuns from Norse mythology and titans from Greek mythology, albeit with some minor changes, is not original. I have a library of my own full of Norse and Greek mythology. I don't want to look to the realms for twisted versions of that mythology. That is what the original D&D setting was for - Forgotten Realms was "Advanced" last I heard.

2B: Asmodeus as a god of sin... i don't know if anyone at Wizards had figured out that kids from a Judeo-Christian background were looking to the realms to escape from reality, but the thought should have occurred at some point. We already had evil gods to balance the good gods in the pantheons, and it was working fine. The same goes for the demon princes - or gods as they now are. They were just powerful demons before - let's go back to that. Bear in mind that I LOVE the nine hells as they existed and, to a large measure, still exist, but fallen angels and demons are a far cry from the gods themselves.

The absence of light and dark fighting over the world in an overstated black (evil) vs white (good) fashion was what seperated the forgotten realms from the less-than-subtle Dragonlance setting, which I left for the more complex and interesting Forgotten Realms setting. Balance, complexity, and a broadly defined gray area, were the key selling points.

3: Complexity. This is REQUIRED. FR is not, and will never be, a setting you sell to morons. FR sells to intelligent people who want room to think and question. It should be marketed as such. Making things simple does nothing to draw thinking, intelligent people to your setting. The people it does appeal to have no interest in a fantasy setting for their escapism - they drink beer or sniff glue to get that escape.

4: Dragons. Heck, monsters in general. I mistakenly bought a 4E Chromatic Dragons Draconomicon. It was a deplorable work. I was actually ashamed to have spent money on it, and I have collected any FR dragon literature religiously since 1991. The same is true of the Monstrous manual. I felt like more was being done to sell 4E in those sourcebooks than to give players game information, and in both cases the 4E versions failed miserably. Bad monsters, dumbed down, and hardly relevant.

4A: Bring back interesting monster/planar creature names. while hacking out various dieties and planes, someone did away with my solars, aasimons, and devas (as they were, at least). instead we get "angel of battle", "angel of guidance", and etc. I was expecting an "angel of toiletries" to round out the lot, but I was disappointed. Who would have thought they were going to draw the line somewhere? The same goes for the devils. they used to have interesting names. Keep the game complex. you are selling to people with IQs well above 70.

5: Stop making the Forgotten realms into Krynn meets Mystara. if anyone actually wanted to read or play those settings, they would have actually sold more than 5 copies for those settings in the past two decades. No more dragonborn. No more genasi. no djinn kingdoms. the realms were fantastic enough as it was, and if people wanted adventure with planar creatures there were planes to travel to. The planes did not have to come to the realms - people could go to the planes from the realms. That was the whole idea.

5A: The spell plague. Get rid of this entirely. Plaguetouched people were an unnecessary addition, as were the earthmotes and mystara/krynn additions that came with them. All of these things were available to writers and players, but they actually had to find means to insert them into a story through creative processes like plot devices or, barring that, planar travel. it smacks of laziness to drop them on the realms. were the planes too inaccessible before? Hardly.

6: BRING BACK THE FORGOTTEN REALMS LOGO. when did forgotten realms become dungeons and dragons? I thought FR carried D&D. Brand yourself if you want to sell. No one buys generic D&D.

Maybe this wasn't so concise, but I did cut it short for the sake of reading in one sitting. There is a lot more to request fixes for, but the above ones are high on the list of unforgivable sins committed in 4E. I may not be a gamer, but I have been reading and collecting FR for nearly twenty years, and that would be just over 2/3 of my life. I can say that I will have no interest in buying 5E any more than I had in 4E if the essentials are not changed, and I am less likely to be fooled into buying even a few novels and sourcebooks. Sheer curiosity might have been the motive last time, but I am apt to be a suspicious consumer moving onto 5E.
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Dennis Posted - 31 May 2012 : 05:27:39
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I want tenuous connections, but I want the stories self-contained. if we gettting 'sweeping histories' of Netheril, Imaskar, the Old Empires, Imperial Calimshan, etc... I want them to be just that = 'snapshots' by individual authors - in individual novels - cove3ring different important events. If you want conections, use family names or what-not (or have them meet the same damn elf - at least they are good for something).


Given that the elves taught magic to the first Netherese people, it's fine that elves would have some novel time. But, (need I say?) I'd surely hate it if they have more than a quarter of a book in the series.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I think this will work better in the long-run as well, to generate new fans of the Realms - I think a long series of novels can be daunting to young readers (although the success of things like Harry Potter puts the lie to my logic).


An excellent editor can do wonders. Even if authors show inconsistencies in the portrayal of some characters or locales, an excellent editor would see and rectify them. In other words, an inter-connected series (with an overarching plot) can still work out fine.
Tyrant Posted - 23 May 2012 : 19:51:19
I am in the group that wants to see more set in the ancient empires. I think Markus is on the right track. Have series similar to the recent Waterdeep series. This gives us multiple authors who can cover multiple areas while still being connected by location/empire. One could be Netheril. One book could focus on it's earliest days. 2 could provide a snapshot of a later period somewhere around the pinnacle of their power with one being set in one of the enclaves and another on the ground to contrast the two groups. 1 would hopefully be an entry focusing on Shade written by Paul S Kemp. And so on. Then if a particular book proves really popular or lends itself well to expansion you expand on that book with that author as WotC is doing with Erik's Shadowbane series that follows up his Waterdeep entry. This would also allow for a shorter time table of releases so if it proves popular they can quickly start on the next empire to explore.
Markustay Posted - 23 May 2012 : 19:15:20
*Ugh*

One of the worst FR series EVER, and I blame it entirely on editing (or lack thereof).

If you want to read it and stay sane, assume ALL the major characters die immediately after the last page of each book, and a group of new characters are created (by some magical means, maybe even simple plastic surgery) with completely different personalities. They look the same, have the same voice and names, but are otherwise different people.

Then the series works.

With the proper editing, such a series could work - I can't recall any particular book I liked less then the others, so I don't think it was a writing problem. It was just one the worst examples of multiple-personality disorder (of every major character) I have ever seen. You could also plainly see that each author had their favorite, and their least favorite character, and wrote appropriately (so heroes became villains, and villains became heroes... over and over again). I know Drow are supposed to be chaotic, but they were downright schizophrenic.

Anyhow, I think it would be 'better' to keep each story in series unattached (but possibly related in the remotest way) to every other novel in the same series. Something along the lines of The Harpers series, rather then WotSQ, or any of the non-seris series they produced in late 3e (like the fighters, citadels, dungeons, etc).

I want tenuous connections, but I want the stories self-contained. if we gettting 'sweeping histories' of Netheril, Imaskar, the Old Empires, Imperial Calimshan, etc... I want them to be just that = 'snapshots' by individual authors - in individual novels - cove3ring different important events. If you want conections, use family names or what-not (or have them meet the same damn elf - at least they are good for something).

I think this will work better in the long-run as well, to generate new fans of the Realms - I think a long series of novels can be daunting to young readers (although the success of things like Harry Potter puts the lie to my logic).

And like I said, FR should NOT be marketed as 'D&D"; it should be marketed as a separate entity - it does well as a novel line without all the game tie-ins, and I think chaining t to that boat-anchor will just drag it down. Fantasy (and its horror sub-genre) are all the rage right now - D&D s losing ground at a time when it should be thriving. Sometimes you have to be like a Civil War surgeon and just amputate the 'bad parts' to save the patient.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 23 May 2012 : 18:59:17
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


I only read read Books 5, 1, and 2 (in that order), and I saw how some characters were portrayed rather differently. Though most likely it's mainly because of the lack of a very good editor who's supposed to ensure continuity not just of the story but of the characters' portrayal as well. Get one who's really good, and then we can have a Netheril series penned by multiple authors, preferably the seasoned ones and those who've already wrote about or dabbled in Netherese lore.



It was flat out jarring to me, particularly with the draegloth.

It's one of the many reasons I rather disliked that series.
Dennis Posted - 23 May 2012 : 17:53:34

I only read Books 5, 1, and 2 (in that order), and I saw how some characters were portrayed rather differently. Though most likely it's mainly because of the lack of a very good editor who's supposed to ensure continuity not just of the story but of the characters' portrayal as well. Get one who's really good, and then we can have a Netheril series penned by multiple authors, preferably the seasoned ones and those who've already written about or dabbled in Netherese lore.
Thauranil Posted - 23 May 2012 : 11:21:38
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil

In fact we could have everyone favorite authors chipping in perhaps like the War of the Spider queen series.



I'd prefer not... In my opinion, one of the weaknesses of the WotSQ series is the way character personalities changed from book to book, which was caused by each book having a different author.


I can see your point bit to me that was more than offset by the different vibes each author brought to the series. It helped make it a lot more interesting. though perhaps it might not work so well in Netherils case as its history is already well documented.
vallon Posted - 22 May 2012 : 23:12:17
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

I'd also like to see how Halruaans started out, got nuked, and are presently rebuilding their nation...

I agree.
Jeremy Grenemyer Posted - 22 May 2012 : 22:05:46
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

I'd also like to see how Halruaans started out <snip>
THIS would be awesome.

The whole struggle to get started, how they preserved their culture and what influence the faith of Azuth had would really interest me.
Dennis Posted - 22 May 2012 : 21:33:26

One sees a dot, another a hole. I could care less. It's not rewriting history for me, it's "expanding" it so many others can understand what really happened, and what could have, if this and that hadn't done this or that.

I'd also like to see how Halruaans started out, got nuked, and are presently rebuilding their nation...
Ayrik Posted - 22 May 2012 : 11:06:35
Establish some kind of cross-time storyline? I would personally vote most strongly against anything of the sort because it would eventually turn into the ultimate mechanism for rewriting written history ... a retcon machine built right into the setting itself. No thank you, why would I leave the launch codes with the same entity which already pressed the Big Red Button so many times before?
Dennis Posted - 22 May 2012 : 03:53:07
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

The Netheril setting itself, being set as history, is somewhat linear, we know all about how and when and where certain apocalyptic events occur, we also know that any apparently significant characters and events which haven't been documented within ancient Netheril's history are ultimately fated to be of little or no consequence.

Basically, I see Wizbro having nothing to gain and possibly much to lose by shifting creative efforts towards dead-end product lines.


If they really want to put more emphasis on the current edition (or future, 5E), they could tie the story set in the past to the "present" state of the empire's survivors.
Jeremy Grenemyer Posted - 21 May 2012 : 16:40:51
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

we also know that any apparently significant characters and events which haven't been documented within ancient Netheril's history are ultimately fated to be of little or no consequence.
I’d have agreed with you in all of this, if it weren’t for the fact that I played HALO: Reach.

Just like in that video game (where you know going in that the planet Reach is doomed), even if we know the fate of Netheril, it doesn’t mean the stories of all the people who lived, died and fought in Netheril aren’t interesting or of interest.

To me, the stories about the little guys; the people who didn’t raise up floating enclaves or challenge a goddess for her power—if they’re done well—are worth reading.

If these stories help to smooth out what I’ve observed many scribes around here refer to as the “very rough edges” of Netheril’s lore, all the better.

But if these stories don’t smooth out the edges…so what? The stories and the people in them are of no consequence, right?
vallon Posted - 21 May 2012 : 14:41:06
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Attempting to be more objective, I ask what could Wizbro possibly accomplish with novels set in ancient Netheril?

If such novels should turn out to be poorly written they'll just throw another load of unwanted baggage and rubbish onto a wobbly pile of canon. Some fans would maintain that we would have been better served by no lore than by a mountain of awful lore.

On the other extreme, if these novels become popular, wildly popular, and spawn trilogies and sagas and talk about who'll be playing Mystryl and Karsus in the upcoming movie adaptations ... they would do so at the cost of taking focus (fanbase) away from the "present" Forgotten Realms. For those of us who reject WotC's version of modern Realmslore, hiding in the past might seem appealing but realistically doesn't change anything. The Netheril setting itself, being set as history, is somewhat linear, we know all about how and when and where certain apocalyptic events occur, we also know that any apparently significant characters and events which haven't been documented within ancient Netheril's history are ultimately fated to be of little or no consequence.

Basically, I see Wizbro having nothing to gain and possibly much to lose by shifting creative efforts towards dead-end product lines.

Interesting points. However, I still find it rather astonishing that so few stories have been published about the Grand History of the Realms, from the Creator Races to the old Elven and Netherese civs. Like all histories where the facts are already known, it's the skill of the writer(s) and the presentation of the facts that determine whether great stories come to life and are entertaining to the reader.

Hopefully, the idea of lore from the past being released (and respected) is expanded to include the distant past... What can I say? I'm an eternal optimist.
Ayrik Posted - 21 May 2012 : 12:22:20
Attempting to be more objective, I ask what could Wizbro possibly accomplish with novels set in ancient Netheril?

If such novels should turn out to be poorly written they'll just throw another load of unwanted baggage and rubbish onto a wobbly pile of canon. Some fans would maintain that we would have been better served by no lore than by a mountain of awful lore.

On the other extreme, if these novels become popular, wildly popular, and spawn trilogies and sagas and talk about who'll be playing Mystryl and Karsus in the upcoming movie adaptations ... they would do so at the cost of taking focus (fanbase) away from the "present" Forgotten Realms. For those of us who reject WotC's version of modern Realmslore, hiding in the past might seem appealing but realistically doesn't change anything. The Netheril setting itself, being set as history, is somewhat linear, we know all about how and when and where certain apocalyptic events occur, we also know that any apparently significant characters and events which haven't been documented within ancient Netheril's history are ultimately fated to be of little or no consequence.

Basically, I see Wizbro having nothing to gain and possibly much to lose by shifting creative efforts towards dead-end product lines.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 21 May 2012 : 12:16:35
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil

In fact we could have everyone favorite authors chipping in perhaps like the War of the Spider queen series.



I'd prefer not... In my opinion, one of the weaknesses of the WotSQ series is the way character personalities changed from book to book, which was caused by each book having a different author.
Thauranil Posted - 21 May 2012 : 11:52:08
I can understand that some people would prefer to preserve the mystery and glamour of that era but I really think a series that is handled well can do justice to it especially with a competent author or two at its helm. In fact we could have everyone favorite authors chipping in perhaps like the War of the Spider queen series.
Dennis Posted - 20 May 2012 : 01:16:53
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil

I heartily second this. A Karsus trilogy sounds great , so far we have just had a few short stories about that era but its left me wanting more, especially with Shade Enclave now playing such a prominent role in the realms.


Perhaps another Wizards series featuring Netheril's archwizards (Larloch, Telamont, Karsus, Ioulaum, Aumvor, ect) would be just right for this. And instead of making it stand-alone as the last Wizards novels, have an overarching theme that would tie the books in.
Lord Karsus Posted - 19 May 2012 : 21:40:28
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil

I heartily second this. A Karsus trilogy sounds great , so far we have just had a few short stories about that era but its left me wanting more...


-We'd all prefer it being kept that way.
Thauranil Posted - 19 May 2012 : 13:08:41
I heartily second this. A Karsus trilogy sounds great , so far we have just had a few short stories about that era but its left me wanting more, especially with Shade Enclave now playing such a prominent role in the realms.
Dennis Posted - 19 May 2012 : 04:48:47

True. He humanized him, and made him complex and far more interesting than most of his brothers.
vallon Posted - 19 May 2012 : 04:46:30
I agree re: Paul. I especially liked his rendering of Brennus.
Dennis Posted - 19 May 2012 : 04:41:54

Indeed. Richard would be an excellent choice, too. Paul simply came to mind first because his treatment of Shade, specially its rulers, always feels right---to me, at least.
vallon Posted - 19 May 2012 : 04:34:46
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by vallon

Indeed. I'd love to see a Karsus trilogy, a series on the younger days of Telamont Tanthul, leading up to the founding of Thultanthar, and perhaps something along the lines of "Ed Greenwood Presents Netheril"...I'd buy those novels and sourcebooks in a heartbeat!


This gets a plus 10!

The Arcane Age (Netheril) Trilogy is a series that hardly touches on the intricacies of its namesake, ironically. That's why in one of my threads, I proposed an expanded version of it, or perhaps a retelling from the point of view of one of the founding archwizards.

We've seen how Shade rose to power. But never before that. If there'd be one trilogy to explore this interesting stage of their evolution, I'd like Paul to write it.

I agree, Dennis. I just finished the Clayton Emery trilogy last weekend and liked it very much. However, it's frustrating that they remain the only Realms novels centered around this lore-rich era. I think that Paul would be a great choice to explore more of this fascinating time period. I also think that Richard Lee Byers could really sink his teeth into the Netherese Empire as well...
Dennis Posted - 19 May 2012 : 03:34:34
quote:
Originally posted by vallon

Indeed. I'd love to see a Karsus trilogy, a series on the younger days of Telamont Tanthul, leading up to the founding of Thultanthar, and perhaps something along the lines of "Ed Greenwood Presents Netheril"...I'd buy those novels and sourcebooks in a heartbeat!


This gets a plus 10!

The Arcane Age (Netheril) Trilogy is a series that hardly touches on the intricacies of its namesake, ironically. That's why in one of my threads, I proposed an expanded version of it, or perhaps a retelling from the point of view of one of the founding archwizards.

We've seen how Shade rose to power. But never before that. If there'd be one trilogy to explore this interesting stage of their evolution, I'd like Paul to write it.
antilochus Posted - 18 May 2012 : 06:43:43
Sorry about the delay; it's been a busy couple of weeks. Thank you for the warm welcomes.
vallon Posted - 04 May 2012 : 09:26:04
Indeed. I'd love to see a Karsus trilogy, a series on the younger days of Telamont Tanthul, leading up to the founding of Thultanthar, and perhaps something along the lines of "Ed Greenwood Presents Netheril"...I'd buy those novels and sourcebooks in a heartbeat!
Diffan Posted - 03 May 2012 : 02:10:46
There shouldn't be an emphasis on any timeline or 'campaign date' with D&D:Next rendition of the Forgotten Realms. For example, when Ed Greenwood Presents the Forgotten Realms book comes out, I have this overwhelming feeling that it won't be date specific, just pure Realmslore that can be used in ANY era. From some examples of his Eye on the Realms articles in Dragon/Dungeon the last few years, I'd say 90% of them can be used in almost any era or, exchange Spellplague with Time of Troubles, Wild Magic area, Shadow-Weave Magic area, etc...and there's a good chance it works.

So if this is a prelude for what we're to expect with FR products in the future D&D:Next edition, then I think that's a great start.
The Sage Posted - 03 May 2012 : 01:47:33
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I will buy a 5E FR campaign setting.

However... If everything I hear about it, before getting the chance to buy it, makes me leary, then I'll do like I did with the 4E FRCG: buy it on the cheap, on eBay, whenever it's convenient (and then not read it for months).

If the lead-in stuff and previews make it sound amazing, however, I'll be getting it from my FLGS the day it releases -- possibly even on my lunch break. I used to do that with FR releases, back in 3E.

I'm too invested in the Realms -- after twenty years -- not to buy anything with a FORGOTTEN REALMS theme.

That being said, what I choose to borrow from a future campaign setting for my own Realms, depends entirely on just how I can shape the new lore with my own lore that has been tweaked and tinkered with since I first started fleshing out my own campaign in 1987.

So, really, and ultimately, what comes about as a result of a 5e setting, for me, is just as important as that of any previous edition.
The Sage Posted - 03 May 2012 : 01:45:06
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by vallon

Yes, welcome to the 'Keep, antilochus! And don't let these guys fool you--they're sweethearts, and it's been a continuing pleasure to experience the awesome Realms knowledge of these and so many others on this site. Now as for The Sage and Wooly, however...



Hey, I'm the nicest guy around! Just ask me, I'll tell you how much of a nice guy I am!

I *can* be nice, but it'll have to wait until it comes up on my "To-Do" list.
Nilus Reynard Posted - 03 May 2012 : 01:39:59
I do not like time jumps in any setting.

The time jump, especially if its 100 years or more, is enough time for almost all of the well known (and "loved") characters to have died. That is what kept me reading the novels, finding out what was going to happen with my favorire realms personalities. I already did that once, learning that almost all of my favorites were gone. Not doing it again.

In my opinion, a time jump is simply a lazy way to wipe the slate clean & start over again. Not something that I am interested in or impressed by.

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