| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Eladrinstar |
Posted - 23 Apr 2012 : 05:31:59
What exactly is it that people travel thousands of miles from Faerun to Kara-Tur to obtain? Silk? Produced in Sembia and Tethyr. Tea? Also in Tethyr.
That is a huge distance for things they can get closer to home. Maybe it's the other way around? Maybe Faerun is the source of exotic goods, and Kara-Tur the consumers. That'd be an interesting (and refreshing) reversal of the situation of the analogues those two continents from real world history, where Europe really had nothing much the Far East wanted or needed.
That'd make sense. In our world it was called the Silk Road. In FR it's the Golden Way, and that's because all of this money from the east is coming in, instead of silks? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| PaulBestwick |
Posted - 03 Jul 2012 : 13:27:43
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Just re-reading Ed's Athalantar Campaign article in Dragon #228 (doing some research on Andlath), and I came across this-
quote:
From Pg.35 of Dragon #228
South of Calimshan, the Tashalar (then “Tashtan” or the Cities of the Seabreeze) produced purple-and-emerald woven fabrics for trade that outshone even the fine silks of Calimshan.
Markus you got the point I thought of, what if the different silk were actually varied in the colours that will take to them, due to a difference in the diet that the silk worms consume. Therefore most nobles would be able to see at a glance where the silk had come from as the colours would not be the local ones. It might be that the dyes are secret just like Roman Imperial Purple. |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 30 Jun 2012 : 06:19:01
Maybe its not just about silks, maybe those entrepreneurs are actually mages who want a piece of Kara-Turan? magic? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 29 Jun 2012 : 19:11:30
Just re-reading Ed's Athalantar Campaign article in Dragon #228 (doing some research on Andlath), and I came across this-
quote:
From Pg.35 of Dragon #228
South of Calimshan, the Tashalar (then “Tashtan” or the Cities of the Seabreeze) produced purple-and-emerald woven fabrics for trade that outshone even the fine silks of Calimshan.
|
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 19:36:20
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
D&D is a tactical superhero game in the fantasy genre. That's a particular style of play. As it happens, it is not the style of the majority of stories set in the Realms, but that's to do with the unfortunate fact that D&D is a very poor fit for Ed's world.
D&D is a fantasy roleplaying game, not a tactical superhero game.
Realms stories are fantasy stories, filled with heroic characters.
The very notion that D&D is a “poor fit” for the Realms is simply wrong. D&D has been the rules set for the Realms since the start.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
D&D rules apply to D&D games set in the Realms. GURPS rules apply to GURPS games set in the Realms. Pathfinder rules apply to Pathfinder games set in the Realms.
Only D&D rules can influence the canon of the Realms.
Do you see the difference now?
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Remember, the people who consume the Realms through the medium of a pen-and-paper roleplaying game are a minority of Realms-fans.
They’re not, but even if they were, what’s your point?
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
The Realms aren't defined by D&D rules any more than the world of Marvel comics is defined by whatever RPG rules the company has currently licensed and/or is publishing.
If we’re talking the canon Realms, your statement is factually wrong.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
By that definition of canon, the Realms is a profoundly stupid setting and I would not play in it unless you paid me a hefty fee. I would probably devote my life to destroying all fiction written there too, as a service to humanity and art.
You’d be a busy man. There are thousands and thousands of pages in print that have been written under that framework.
Like it or not, that’s how it works. For the record: I don’t always like it either.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Fortunately, no author I've read, sourcebook or novel, appears to actually adhere to this view.
You’ve never read a Forgotten Realms sourcebook then? I find that odd.
Anyway, some novels follow the game rules and some don’t, depending on the author and the demands of his or her editor.
Richard Baker was pretty good at limiting his characters to what the game rules allowed them to do.
Many novels featured infravision, for example, while others have removed it after the game switched from 2nd Edition AD&D to 3rd Edition D&D. Authors have talked about how they grappled with rules changes when writing novels over time.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
The rules of D&D are not seen as natural laws in the world of the setting by the people who write about the setting. Regardless of what D&D rules say, characters in novels and sourcebooks have the full range of human frailties, motivations and complexity, at least as far as the author's skill extends. They aren't simply the sum of their D&D stats and the challenges they overcome aren't either.
. The D&D rules are sometimes the natural laws of the setting—traveling in the planes, for example.
However, nobody said NPCs and novel characters lack human frailties, motivations and complexity. No set of D&D rules has ever made this the case, by the way.
Look, nobody is saying the D&D rules are the be-all and end-all, just as nobody is saying novel authors are not permitted to imagine fantastic stories that don't necessarily conform to the game rules.
If you think I'm claiming either of those things, you’re mistaken.
The point is this: the D&D rules have a real, measurable influence on the Forgotten Realms as a setting in terms of how information about the setting is presented in sourcebooks and (some) novels.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Stats that appear in game books aren't written by experts on the lore material they cover. They are often just thrown in there by the equivalent of an intern.
This is a sweeping generalization with no basis in truth.
The design team that created the 3rd Edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, for example, was extremely well-versed in lore and worked damn hard to integrate the setting and the rules.
I wouldn’t describe someone like Eric Boyd or Steven Schend as ignorant of the Realms, but you’ll find a large number of sourcebooks over two editions of the rules filled with game stats they wrote.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Try asking authors about who stated their characters in an official supplement and what they think of the accuracy of these stats.
Go ahead. I don’t recall a specific author ever complaining. In fact, I’ve seen several of them do the stats themselves.
Sean Reynolds did a bang-up job on Drizzt’s stats. Rich Baker’s work in (the print version of) Dragon Magazine depicting Sembian novel NPCs was spot on, save for one wizard I thought was too high in level.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
As a working assumption, I've been going by the notion that people generally realise that statements made by a certain individual represent the opinion of that individual.
The issue isn’t whether you recognize people are sharing their opinions; it’s that you dismiss other’s opinions as either wrong or secondary to yours.
This is my last post on the subject. I’m done with this scroll. My apologies to the OP and the Mods for the off-topic banter.
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 19:00:15
I thought I made my point earlier, but I guess I have to repeat myself.
People with large amounts of disposable income will buy stuff that is over-priced, just so they have 'bragging rights'. You will pay more for an actual Xerox machine, or a SONY product, or Apple,or some insanely priced 'designer' article of clothing, etc... just so you can say you did. Human beings are very stupid when it comes to this sort of thing (I wonder if any other races participate in this brand of insanity?).
Case in point: I had a customer that was worth 80 million (or rather, her whole family was - they owned a tech company). She bragged to me that she purchased a knock-off Gucci bag online for about $75, when all her friends bought real ones for $1500. She claimed none of them could tell the difference. Either way, she was one of the few female customers I had that I respected (most of the others couldn't spend their husband's money fast enough).
Another time (YEARS ago) I was at a family function, and my wife's cousin was staring at my 'Champion sweatshirt'. After a few minutes she said, "Aha! I knew it was a fake! I can tell by the stitching under the armpit!" She then showed me the difference in the stitching under her armpit. I looked at her and asked, "how much did you pay for yours? She told me $50. I told her I got mine from some guy on a street corner, 3-for-$20, and that "all that proves is that I am smarter then you". I also asked her if she spent all her time staring at people's armpits. She proudly declared that she did.
People are idiots.
YES, some nobles WILL try to fool others by buying Sembian 'knock-offs', but the majority of them will be afraid of being discovered, and pay the exorbitant prices for the 'genuine article', because thats just how people are (and there is ALWAYS a way of telling the difference). You will also find (in both fantasy settings and RW) that there will be a number of con-artists who will charge the higher prices for the 'fake stuff', because they know their customer (mark) won't know the difference, and will be long-gone before the truth is discovered. Everything from clothing, to wine, to pieces of art get treated this way. Greed & Avarice are a scammer's best friends.
@Icelander - you are trying to apply logic to an illogical human social behavior... its not going to work. People who buy luxuries aren't trying to save money, they are trying to spend it conspicuously. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 18:44:01
I think this has gone far enough off base...
Hopefully we can get past the debate of rules and back to Trade eh? |
| Icelander |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 18:28:25
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
However, the rules don't allow for "a particular style of play". GURPS rules don't affect the Realms. D&D rules do.
D&D is a tactical superhero game in the fantasy genre. That's a particular style of play. As it happens, it is not the style of the majority of stories set in the Realms, but that's to do with the unfortunate fact that D&D is a very poor fit for Ed's world.
D&D rules apply to D&D games set in the Realms. GURPS rules apply to GURPS games set in the Realms. Pathfinder rules apply to Pathfinder games set in the Realms.
Remember, the people who consume the Realms through the medium of a pen-and-paper roleplaying game are a minority of Realms-fans. Those using the most recent version of D&D, adopting every new rule as it comes out and ignoring anything not current, are a minority of a minority.
The Realms aren't defined by D&D rules any more than the world of Marvel comics is defined by whatever RPG rules the company has currenly licensed and/or is publishing.
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
Those rules are set in stone once written or until contradicted by another rules source. It goes like this: What Ed says --> What a sourcebook (including any rules in it) says --> What newer sourcebooks say.
What Ed Greenwood says is true for the Realms unless a published product overwrites or contradicts what he says. If a published product says Electrum Pieces aren't used as currency anymore, that's canon. If the latest Player's Handbook says dwarves can be wizards when page after page of prior lore (including anything written by Ed) says otherwise, that lore no longer applies. If a published product re-writes how the spell Teleport works, all the canon information in Volo's Guides about wizards utilizing the spell or defending against it, as well its use in novels, etc. are called into question.
By that definition of canon, the Realms is a profoundly stupid setting and I would not play in it unless you paid me a hefty fee. I would probably devote my life to destroying all fiction written there too, as a service to humanity and art.
Fortunately, no author I've read, sourcebook or novel, appears to actually adhere to this view. The rules of D&D are not seen as natural laws in the world of the setting by the people who write about the setting. Regardless of what D&D rules say, characters in novels and sourcebooks have the full range of human frailties, motivations and complexity, at least as far as the author's skill extends. They aren't simply the sum of their D&D stats and the challenges they overcome aren't either.
Stats that appear in game books aren't written by experts on the lore material they cover. They are often just thrown in there by the equivalent of an intern. Try asking authors about who statted their characters in an official supplement and what they think of the accuracy of these stats.
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
Just please stop requiring the rest of us to think like you do. When you "dismiss" (your words) someone else's opinion as wrong, you give off the vibe that says "I, Icelander, have established how the Realms should be viewed. If you don't think like me or if you don't view the Realms as I do, whatever you say is wrong".
It would be nicer if you wrote "here's where I disagree" instead of "your opinion was dismissed and here's why I'm right".
As a working assumption, I've been going by the notion that people generally realise that statements made by a certain individual represent the opinion of that individual.
When discussing history or literature, I don't preface every sentence by 'in my opinion'. I state my opinion and trust listeners to realise that by doing so, I implicitly endorse that opinion. Why should it be different when discussing fictional history? |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 17:17:54
Icelander, everyone recognizes that the rules are used as a system for ease of play. You can't fully model reality with any set of game rules. At best the rules are a lense through which we view the Realms.
However, the rules don't allow for "a particular style of play". GURPS rules don't affect the Realms. D&D rules do.
Those rules are set in stone once written or until contradicted by another rules source. It goes like this: What Ed says --> What a sourcebook (including any rules in it) says --> What newer sourcebooks say.
What Ed Greenwood says is true for the Realms unless a published product overwrites or contradicts what he says. If a published product says Electrum Pieces aren't used as currency anymore, that's canon. If the latest Player's Handbook says dwarves can be wizards when page after page of prior lore (including anything written by Ed) says otherwise, that lore no longer applies. If a published product re-writes how the spell Teleport works, all the canon information in Volo's Guides about wizards utilizing the spell or defending against it, as well its use in novels, etc. are called into question.
I think we're all capable of choosing which we think is better, but if you're having a canon discussion (which you seem to be), you can't ignore the rules, because the D&D rules have informed Realms design decisions for a long, long time.
Lastly, please keep in mind I'm not trying to tell you how to think about the Realms. I like your style, even if I don't always agree with it.
Just please stop requiring the rest of us to think like you do. When you "dismiss" (your words) someone else's opinion as wrong, you give off the vibe that says "I, Icelander, have established how the Realms should be viewed. If you don't think like me or if you don't view the Realms as I do, whatever you say is wrong".
It would be nicer if you wrote "here's where I disagree" instead of "your opinion was dismissed and here's why I'm right".
[EDIT: Haha! Weapon shrinkage. I haven't read that one in a while.] |
| Icelander |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 16:50:03
The rules don't say that humans need to eat a diet consisting of anything other than travelling rations to remain healthy. I don't interpret this as meaning that nutritional requirements for humans are different in the Forgotten Realms, I interpret it as being a function of the rules being a simplified system designed for ease of play, not accurate modelling.
If a statement by Ed Greenwood says that something is the case in the Realms, I believe him. If applying the rules as written would lead to another conclusion, I conclude that the rules-as-written do not represent actual reality in the setting. They're just meant to allow a particular style of play and no one designed them to be perfect models.
D&D books, if taken literally, would indicate that the world of any setting was so strange that it resembled the real world not at all. I've never taken them this literally and instead gone by the feel of the world provided by actual descriptions of it.
Any other method leads to parody like the excellent Order of the Stick. |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 16:37:44
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
When discussing it in general, it is a mistake to focus on a particular rule system (...)
Why?
The Realms have been designed around four full generations of rules over the last 30 years. How the D&D rules work has had a literal and direct influence on setting.
That the rules change over time leads to contradictions, but that can't be helped.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
(...) especially if doing so would force us toward a different conclusion than what canon already says is the fact in the setting.
You're getting this backwards. In order to have a proper, detailed discussion about the Realms, it's important to note where the canon has been shaped by the rules, especially in the Realms earliest days as a product.
You may have noted a lot of scribes want to see the Realms divorced from the rules for 5th Edition, because we don't like how the rules can have a negative, always-changing-things effect on the setting.
If we get our wish for 5E, it will be the first time ever that the Realms aren't associated with the current D&D rules set.
The Forgotten Realms has never been divorced from the D&D rules since it's been a published product for sale on store shelves. Even before it was purchased by TSR, Ed was slowly modifying his Realms to fit the D&D books as they were being published. I appreciate the desire to elevate (if that's the right word) the setting above the rules--and I think there is a place for that kind of a discussion--especially since many novels (not all, mind) ignore the rules too.
But to dismiss the rules as irrelevant when having the deep sort of “how does the Realms work?” discussion that many scribes enjoy is, I think, a mistake. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 03:34:55
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I understand. No matter what I say, no matter the flaws I point out, you're -always- going to tell me I'm wrong. Even if I'm right, you will simply point out how you're using different rules entirely... and so I'm still wrong and you're right. The problem, though, is that the Realms we discuss here -do- use the general D&D rules. Editions change, but the wacky economics of D&D are still fairly wacky regardless of edition. It's interesting that you seem to think it's okay to argue strenuously for real-world operating rules when most players/DMs are going to be going off some form of D&D rules, though.
The Realms exist as a fictional setting and as a home for campaigns run using all sorts of rules.
When discussing it in general, it is a mistake to focus on a particular rule system, especially if doing so would force us toward a different conclusion than what canon already says is the fact in the setting.
I've always wanted to model the Realms as Ed visualises them and as they are presented in good fiction set there.
I know that I can't do that while using D&D rules. That's not what they are designed to do.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I am curious about one thing, though. In the face of a total theory-breaker like magic, especially the pervasive magic of the Realms, do you still think your real-life economic theory holds?
That people respond to incentives? Yes. I do.
The incentives are different, because the mechanisms of production and transport are not analogous to any period of history. But that does not mean that it's not possible to analyse them rationally, once we establish how they work. |
| Therise |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 03:25:08
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
If you say so... 
http://blogofholding.com/?p=2187
http://disgustedbeyondbelief.blogspot.com/2009/02/economics-of-dungeons-and-dragons.html
http://www.koboldquarterly.com/k/front-page145.php
http://rpgdigest.com/2008/01/31/the-economics-of-the-dd-world/comment-page-1/
You might have noticed that I don't use D&D rules to play in the Realms, for the very reason that D&D rules are simplistic and hopelessly inadequate for modelling a place where people are people and trade drives the economy.
D&D being stupid doesn't make economic theory stupid. The Realms exist as a place described using both the English language and through the medium of a simplified game system. When the game system has imperfections that would make the English description impossible, the DM has to decide whether to throw away the canon descriptions or the rule artifact that doesn't work.
It is well known that most of the people who write D&D books are not historians, economists or even people with a good grasp of anything other than a particular game system. We should not expect them to turn in anything other than what they are paid for, i.e. rules for tactical superhero play in a fantasy setting.
If we are not playing tactical superhero games, we need to find rules to model the rest of the world somewhere else, or alternatively use our best judgment, like with any other worldbuilding.
I understand. No matter what I say, no matter the flaws I point out, you're -always- going to tell me I'm wrong. Even if I'm right, you will simply point out how you're using different rules entirely... and so I'm still wrong and you're right. The problem, though, is that the Realms we discuss here -do- use the general D&D rules. Editions change, but the wacky economics of D&D are still fairly wacky regardless of edition. It's interesting that you seem to think it's okay to argue strenuously for real-world operating rules when most players/DMs are going to be going off some form of D&D rules, though.
I am curious about one thing, though. In the face of a total theory-breaker like magic, especially the pervasive magic of the Realms, do you still think your real-life economic theory holds?
|
| Icelander |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 02:42:23
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
If you say so...
http://blogofholding.com/?p=2187
http://disgustedbeyondbelief.blogspot.com/2009/02/economics-of-dungeons-and-dragons.html
http://www.koboldquarterly.com/k/front-page145.php
http://rpgdigest.com/2008/01/31/the-economics-of-the-dd-world/comment-page-1/
You might have noticed that I don't use D&D rules to play in the Realms, for the very reason that D&D rules are simplistic and hopelessly inadequate for modelling a place where people are people and trade drives the economy.
D&D being stupid doesn't make economic theory stupid. The Realms exist as a place described using both the English language and through the medium of a simplified game system. When the game system has imperfections that would make the English description impossible, the DM has to decide whether to throw away the canon descriptions or the rule artifact that doesn't work.
It is well known that most of the people who write D&D books are not historians, economists or even people with a good grasp of anything other than a particular game system. We should not expect them to turn in anything other than what they are paid for, i.e. rules for tactical superhero play in a fantasy setting.
If we are not playing tactical superhero games, we need to find rules to model the rest of the world somewhere else, or alternatively use our best judgment, like with any other worldbuilding. |
| Therise |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 01:37:34
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
LOL - I'm out. When people are so utterly convinced of their own infallibility, there's no point in contributing.
You're allowed to totally dismiss the whole concept of name/origin having a huge impact on pricing of luxury goods, but I say that doing so is incredibly narrow-visioned and more than a little arrogant. And the fact that you're still rigidly using real-world economics (incomplete though it is) to back your rejection, it's rather naive.
Economic theory isn't 'real world' or not. These are methods that can be applied to examples whether they are real or fictional.
If you say so...
http://blogofholding.com/?p=2187
http://disgustedbeyondbelief.blogspot.com/2009/02/economics-of-dungeons-and-dragons.html
http://www.koboldquarterly.com/k/front-page145.php
http://rpgdigest.com/2008/01/31/the-economics-of-the-dd-world/comment-page-1/
|
| Icelander |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 01:07:40
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
LOL - I'm out. When people are so utterly convinced of their own infallibility, there's no point in contributing.
You're allowed to totally dismiss the whole concept of name/origin having a huge impact on pricing of luxury goods, but I say that doing so is incredibly narrow-visioned and more than a little arrogant. And the fact that you're still rigidly using real-world economics (incomplete though it is) to back your rejection, it's rather naive.
Economic theory isn't 'real world' or not. These are methods that can be applied to examples whether they are real or fictional.
It cannot possibly be controversial that in order to develop a product identity, by means of brand-naming or origin-branding, the product has to be identifiable. If it isn't, what you have is essentially a confidence game, not a business strategy, and the fact that you might be telling the truth is irrelevant. Since any competitor that simply lies about the origin of his wares will have an immense advantage over you, you'll quickly go out of busines anyway.
It's easy to dismiss conspicious spending as 'spending a lot of money on nothing'. It's also wrong. It matters greatly that the spending is, in fact, as conspicious as possible, as well as conforming to accepted social norms.
This means that it doesn't matter to most people how much you paid, it only matters how much it looks like you paid. It is true that there are exceptions, but there's a reason we call them exceptions. It's because they aren't the rule.
Whether in a fantasy world or a real one, the value of a particular luxury good is not particularly enhanced by paying a nameless person without fame or notoriority of any kind to carry it around for months before you use it.
Yes, you could double your spending on wines if you only bought them after someone had performed intimate rituals on the bottles, but that wouldn't impress most of your peers. They'd be far more impressed if you simply bought wine that was twice as expensive in the first place.
Rich merchants and nobles don't actually have infinite money. They have set budgets, even if these are greater than what you might be used to, and they are generally looking to use those budgets for discrete things, even if you might not recognise them. Every coin they spend on travelling expenses for people who buy identical goods far away is a coin they can't spend to match the luxuries of their peers at home.
While individuals can and do make errors in judgment and not realise this, the long-term trend will be that those who spent their money on things that don't impress will see their influence diminish. This means that it is not sustainable for a given good to enjoy continually high demand unless it has distinguishable characteristics from local substitute goods that can be the subject of preference among the target demographic.
Do you disagree with any of that? Because you'd be hard-pressed to find any kind of marketing professional or economist who'd be willing to accept the idea that you could have product brand identity without some identifiable characterics of the product.
Happily, as Ed Greenwood says, Shou silk is distinct from Sembian silk and the buyers can tell the difference, at least if they are among the cognoscenti. This explains why there is a demand for Shou silk despite the availability of Sembian silk.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Nobles, and the very wealthy, drive luxury markets (and black markets) in ways you haven't even brought up.
You don't think that by referencing the tulips I'm acknowledging that? Surely you can find plenty of learned commentary on all sides of the issue in works on the tulipmania.
None of which will support a theory that such fads lasts centuries. |
| Therise |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 00:48:50
LOL - I'm out. When people are so utterly convinced of their own infallibility, there's no point in contributing.
You're allowed to totally dismiss the whole concept of name/origin having a huge impact on pricing of luxury goods, but I say that doing so is incredibly narrow-visioned and more than a little arrogant. And the fact that you're still rigidly using real-world economics (incomplete though it is) to back your rejection, it's rather naive. Nobles, and the very wealthy, drive luxury markets (and black markets) in ways you haven't even brought up. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 00:24:40
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I could say the same thing about you, blindly ignoring my point and just rejecting it out of hand.
My point, had you cared to really think about it, has NOTHING to do really with overt quality of the fabric itself. Instead, you come back to this point over and over while still rejecting what I said. Who, really, is not listening to whom? Hmm?
Your point was made more than ten posts after it had been evaluated and dismissed in a prior post. The demand for Shou silk has endured for far too long for it to be plausible for it to represent a fashion trend of the sort you describe. You'll note that in the early posts of this thread, the Tulip Mania is alluded to as an example of the sort of brief frenzy of demand for what appears afterward to be almost random items, out of all proportion to the cost of manufacturing. And the most important point is that such brief periods end.
It beggars belief to maintain that Shou silk has retained a status as a high-fashion good for centuries if it could not be distinguished from other silk. In order for reputations of any sort to form and endure, there has to be a recognisable identity for it to latch on to.
You cannot discuss branding and product identity if the product is neither branded nor identifiable.
The fact that magic exists to determine origin is not terribly significant. While it exists, the fact is that the average noble or person looking to dress like a noble meets a whole lot of people whose good opinion matters, but who do not habitually subject all others to a battery of magical tests, focusing on their clothing. In real world terms, it's comparable to scientific tests of various sorts and how often do you see business leaders or Hollywood icons judged in fashion magazines by what a forensic laboratory could tell about the fabric in their clothing?
You might impress a few very strange merchant-mages by wearing clothing that could be determined to be from far off by a battery of magical tests. You'll impress far more people by wearing clothing that is recognisably expensive, in the proper fashion and cut and of superior appearance and materials.
How it looks is more important than how it might eventually test, if it should be tested. This is a truism that is as true in fantasy as it is in real life.
Remember, in order for there to be significant demand, more people than just a few eccentrics have to buy Shou silk. And for that to happen, it has to be recognisable as Shou silk in some easier way than casting Legend Lore. It has to have, in modern terms, product identity.
Of course, in the real world, Chinese silk was considered superior to Venetian silk. And expert tailors, as well as fashion-conscious nobles and merchants, could by all accounts tell the difference. So the closest historical analogy we have supports what is, after all, merely the tautological affirmation of common sense. If no one can tell the difference between cheap goods and expensive goods, most people will buy the cheap goods. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 00:05:30
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I see where you’re coming from here, but I think you’re forgetting about preference and rivalry.
Preference: in many parts of the Realms, rich nobles often wish to be the first to purchase the "next big thing" and, by wearing it, displaying it or using it, make those things they personally favor popular and set the latest trends for others to follow.
If one of the ten richest nobles in Sembia, for example, decides that he wants all of his curtains or clothes for his staff made of silk from Westgate (hypothetical), you can bet your last gold-piece others will work hard to get that silk.
Those wishing to emulate or "be like" that noble will do the same. This drives demand, even if the actual item is inferior to other silk (such as that from Sembia).
Rivalry: if one noble outspends another, they're doing it to show they've the coin to spend. What they spend that coin on doesn't actually matter.
Ergo, the quality of an item (such as silk) doesn't actually have to be better before one person tries outspending another to acquire it.
I acknowledged it didn't have to be, but for demand to be steady over a period of centuries, it was certainly the way to bet. One of the defining traits of the kind of fads caused by inexplicable preferences of leading trend-setters is their short duration.
Also, in order for a good to develop any kind of reputation, good or bad, it has to be distinguishable. That is, it's no good if nobody can tell where silk comes from except by magic or spying, because in that case only the tiniest fraction of potential rivals or peers will have any idea they are supposed to be impressed by where its from.
It's not impossible that someone will spend money to impress one particular peer or a very narrow group, that's obvious. But we aren't talking about such exceptions, we are talking about a widespread demand that persists for centuries. That's not a fad and that's not confined to just a few eccentrics.
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I think this is, at best, a guideline, not a universal truth. That is, the logic makes sense and most of the time it will hold, but nobles and merchants with coins to spend, as well as people with ambition, aren’t always logical. 
Interesting conversation. Hope it lasts.
Economists have found that discounting personal idiosyncracies still allows for reasonable prediction of long-term trends. People do things for all sorts of reasons, but the irrational actions tend to cancel each other out sufficiently to make it reasonable to look at behaviour as being driven by incentives.
We can't predict what will be popular in Sembian fashions next fall, but we can say with almost zero chance of error that a good that is in no way distinguishable from a far cheaper substitute good will not generate sufficient demand over a period of centuries to sustain a thriving cross-continental trade road. |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 22:49:15
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
You're ignoring the fact that if Shou silk doesn't have features that make it at least different and ideally arguably superior to Sembian silk, other nobles who find out that you are spending a fortune on it will not have any reason to be impressed by your conspicuous consumption.
I see where you’re coming from here, but I think you’re forgetting about preference and rivalry.
Preference: in many parts of the Realms, rich nobles often wish to be the first to purchase the "next big thing" and, by wearing it, displaying it or using it, make those things they personally favor popular and set the latest trends for others to follow.
If one of the ten richest nobles in Sembia, for example, decides that he wants all of his curtains or clothes for his staff made of silk from Westgate (hypothetical), you can bet your last gold-piece others will work hard to get that silk.
Those wishing to emulate or "be like" that noble will do the same. This drives demand, even if the actual item is inferior to other silk (such as that from Sembia).
Rivalry: if one noble outspends another, they're doing it to show they've the coin to spend. What they spend that coin on doesn't actually matter.
Ergo, the quality of an item (such as silk) doesn't actually have to be better before one person tries outspending another to acquire it.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
You're ignoring the fact that if Shou silk doesn't have features that make it at least different and ideally arguably superior to Sembian silk, other nobles who find out that you are spending a fortune on it will not have any reason to be impressed by your conspicuous consumption.
I think this is, at best, a guideline, not a universal truth. That is, the logic makes sense and most of the time it will hold, but nobles and merchants with coins to spend, as well as people with ambition, aren’t always logical.
Interesting conversation. Hope it lasts.
|
| Therise |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 22:48:01
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
You've never seen Shou silk, it's not real.
I've made a perfectly legitimate point, but you're welcome to stick to your beliefs about this imaginary fabric's quality.
I haven't made any statements about its quality. Which I should hope would be obvious if you would read my posts.
I could say the same thing about you, blindly ignoring my point and just rejecting it out of hand.
My point, had you cared to really think about it, has NOTHING to do really with overt quality of the fabric itself. Instead, you come back to this point over and over while still rejecting what I said. Who, really, is not listening to whom? Hmm?
|
| Icelander |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 22:31:54
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
You've never seen Shou silk, it's not real.
I've made a perfectly legitimate point, but you're welcome to stick to your beliefs about this imaginary fabric's quality.
I haven't made any statements about its quality. Which I should hope would be obvious if you would read my posts.
I have made statements that in order to justify continued demand for it, it would necessarily be distinguishable from substitute goods available at much lower prices.
This is not a controversial statement.
As it happens, though, Ed Greenwood has stated that Shou silk is perceived by most people as higher quality than Sembian silk. It was on the 21st of March, this year:
Ed has finally clawed aside enough time to properly reply, and here he is:
Hi, Icelander. The Shou empire does indeed export silk to the westerly lands detailed in most Realms products, and yes, the demand is great—because Shou silk is by far the best, making other silk garments (those of Var the Golden and the Utter East in the mid 1300s DR, for instance, and the small silk production in Murghom at the same time) seem coarse by comparison.
However, it’s (as usual) wrong to so closely compare the Realms to our real world. Silk making is not and never has been a Shou “secret,” and no one has to “steal” silkworms from anywhere—though some merchants have tried, following the mistaken thinking that the Shou worms are somehow superior.
What IS superior is the proper climate for silkworms to flourish; certain damp, warm southerly regions in the vast Shou lands are ideal for silkworms, just as a few damp, warm areas of western Faerûn are ideal (and the vast majority of territory in both places is unsuitable). In Sembia and most of the Heartlands and all of the Sword Coast and Moonsea North, it’s too cold in winter for silkworms to survive—and most attempts to keep them alive in heated dwellings and warehouses fail because the heating makes the microclimate in the rooms where the silkworms are kept too dry. Also, tiny mites that eat and sicken and ultimately kill silkworms are present in quantities in any home that has dogs, cats, and a lot of traffic (particularly children, at play) with the outdoors and farm animals.
What certain individuals in Sembia (concerned with shipping of fruits and fine textiles without much mold growth and ruination) thought of was that light, moisture, temperature, and other things need to be “right” for silkworms to produce superior silk. So they started tinkering—and their “best conditions” are their secrets, if they can be said to have any. Their output is still small and uneven in quality, so the Shou silk remains highly prized (and in fact, folk wisdom up and down the Sword Coast makes Sembian silk command higher prices and be bought more quickly and avidly if it’s passed off as Shou silk).
The Yarnmaster family rose to wealth and importance by perfecting faster, larger looms for the weaving of everyday bulk textiles. Silk was a small, high-end portion of the field they worked in, never their daily bread-and-butter—but over the years, they have been increasingly active in sourcing the cheapest raw materials for all weaving, manipulating market prices, and “playing” rulers, merchant groups, and rival trade cabals to keep supplies ample and prices low to feed their looms. So, yes, Yarnmasters were traveling all over the known Realms, trading (and manipulating) energetically. In recent years, the Yarnmasters are very much involved in the Sembian silk business.
There are at least seven Sembian merchant family cartels involved in silk-making within Sembia; the families are the Arrandamars (a large lusty, jovial, rip-roaring clan), the Brethrents (dignified, discreet, secretive, conservative; owning much city properties and avoiding publicity), the Calathnars (haughty, arrogant, and swift to violence and the use of poison), the Marynters (fashion-setters and seekers of the new and the innovative and fads that can be exploited), the Ondremmeths (a physically large and strong family who are hard bargainers, armed enforcers of contract details, miserly and governed by greed), the Pendrels (seafaring merchant fleet owners and old-guard “swap this for that” dockside manygoods traders), and the Yarnmasters.
I hope this is of help. Please feel free to ask followups.
Ed
So saith Ed. Creator of Sembia, and a man I happen to know has slept a time or two on silk sheets . . .
love,
THO |
| Therise |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 22:13:34
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
You're ignoring the fact that if Shou silk doesn't have features that make it at least different and ideally arguably superior to Sembian silk, other nobles who find out that you are spending a fortune on it will not have any reason to be impressed by your conspicious consumption.
You've never seen Shou silk, it's not real.
I've made a perfectly legitimate point, but you're welcome to stick to your beliefs about this imaginary fabric's quality.
|
| Icelander |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 20:39:37
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Look, both you and Ayrik seem to believe that other nobles couldn't, or wouldn't want to, assess the origin of Shou silk. I'll remind you both that this isn't even a remotely realistic version of medieval or Renaissance Earth, but the Realms. Nobles here, particularly in Cormyr and Waterdeep, have spies and magic for everything. Especially where trade, finance, and one-upmanship are core to their life and goals.
In the Realms, because of spies and magic, a good portion of the time nobles will know -exactly- what other nobles are purchasing. Everyone keeps tabs on the others, if they're any good at keeping their own position and finances.
Frankly, I think it's more than a little bizarre that you're suggesting "the world wouldn't know" Shou silk when it's seen. Even if that were the case, which I doubt, you still have the merchant caravans who brought it in, the sales transactions along the way, other goods from the same origin point, and magical means of identifying and verifying everything. I'll grant you that Joe Commoner wouldn't know Shou silk from some other kind, but a) he doesn't buy silk anyway, and b) he doesn't have a staff, a network of spies, and doesn't monitor trade patterns with magical means.
You're ignoring the fact that if Shou silk doesn't have features that make it at least different and ideally arguably superior to Sembian silk, other nobles who find out that you are spending a fortune on it will not have any reason to be impressed by your conspicious consumption.
Nobles generally respect shrewdness and good taste* in addition to wealth. Just spending a lot of money to get the same thing you could get for much less marks you as a dupe, not an aesthete.
The person who pays champagne prices for fizzy coloured water is not showing off his wealth, he's showing off how easy he is to fool. If Sembian silk is just as good as Shou silk, buying Shou silk would be the same kind of solecism.
Other nobles won't think that your silk tunic is more impressive if you pay someone to drive the material for a wide circle around Saerloon six hundred times before you have a seamstress make it. If Shou silk was functionally identical to Sembian silk, buying it would be an example of paying someone to travel a long way and then coming back with the same thing you could have bought at the corner store.
That's not the kind of conspicious consumption that makes others admire your taste, wordliness and wealth.
The noble who spent his 'impress peers' budget on luxuries that are actually visible to them will leave the poor dumb noble who spent his on paying for a long boring vacation for some underling in the dust.
This is why Shou silk has to be distinguishable from Sembian silk for it to make sense that there is a steady demand for it.
*Defined as being ahead of the curve in following approved rules of what is cool and trendy. |
| Therise |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 14:54:32
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Just to add another variable, because so far it's been a discussion about the quality of goods driving price...
Origin and "name brands" can significantly elevate price. Is the Gap, or Abercrombie, or D-squared, tremendously better in quality than Wal-mart or Ross? Why does my Birkin bag and my Prada jacket make smile more than my (way, way) cheaper alternatives?
Imagine the noble who can idly comment, "oh, we're importing Shou silk for the gowns this year."
If no one but the noble himself can tell whether or not he's telling the truth, such demand will not be common or particularly lucrative. Few people, as I said above, enjoy spending money merely to impress themselves. They want to share their sense of smug self-satisfaction with the world. In order to do that, the world must know the difference between the expensive and the cheap brand.
Look, both you and Ayrik seem to believe that other nobles couldn't, or wouldn't want to, assess the origin of Shou silk. I'll remind you both that this isn't even a remotely realistic version of medieval or Renaissance Earth, but the Realms. Nobles here, particularly in Cormyr and Waterdeep, have spies and magic for everything. Especially where trade, finance, and one-upmanship are core to their life and goals.
In the Realms, because of spies and magic, a good portion of the time nobles will know -exactly- what other nobles are purchasing. Everyone keeps tabs on the others, if they're any good at keeping their own position and finances.
Frankly, I think it's more than a little bizarre that you're suggesting "the world wouldn't know" Shou silk when it's seen. Even if that were the case, which I doubt, you still have the merchant caravans who brought it in, the sales transactions along the way, other goods from the same origin point, and magical means of identifying and verifying everything. I'll grant you that Joe Commoner wouldn't know Shou silk from some other kind, but a) he doesn't buy silk anyway, and b) he doesn't have a staff, a network of spies, and doesn't monitor trade patterns with magical means.
|
| Ayrik |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 03:33:40
Although you (and I, and probably almost every other experienced DM) imposes house rules for teleportals and such stuff, the published game rules do allow for some methods like teleport without error which are pretty much 100% safe and reliable. Okay, there are sometimes risks involving weird multi-dimensional storms, divine interference, and other such extraordinary circumstances ... but I wouldn't be surprised if teleporting was statistically safer than other methods of travelling the same distance (at least that's the argument quoted in Star Trek).
Mages powerful enough to cast teleport usually have better things to do with their time and magic than flashing across the continent every day to load up on as much silk as they can carry, let alone spending all the time and effort in the marketplace trying to haggle out a heavier handful of silvers (or paying half the profits toward employing a merchant instead). Not very adventurous, heroic, villainous, or magical ... just dull and ordinary, might as well quit role-playing and get a job. I think most mages would prefer to save that teleport spell for important or emergency use, and they'd rather just blast or loot something to seize their share of the hoard. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 01:34:34
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
lets not forget Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue as well.
She has her own Faerun-spanning portal network, just for merchandise, and probably has expanded to other continents/sub-settings by now as well.
Think on how cheaply she can ship Shou silk compared to others.
Hmmm... a teleport spell requires a high-level wizard and risks losing the entire shipment. It's quick, but is it cheap?
Teleport Object is 7th level, meaning a 13th to 14th level caster. You'll lose at least 2% of shipments, meaning that you must effectively self-insure for quite a lot of money if you're shipping expensive stuff. You'll also need permanent magical items, the teleport beacons, at each place you plan to operate.
In my campaign, everything stocked by Aurora that can conceivably be shipped by other methods uses them. Only special orders are teleported and this adds thousands of gold to the total order, much the same as when you have your order flown in by special plane today.
Given that the final price of the Shou silk is not thousands of gold pieces for enough material to make a simple dress, I'd hardly call it the most economical method.
That being said, you could no doubt make money with matched teleport circles, beacons and all, in Shou Lung and Faerun. It's just rather hard to set up and you need someone willing and able to do it. I'm perfectly willing to accept that no one has as yet successfully done it in modern Faerun.
And I'd also be willing to rule for my own campaign that the Mandarinate, considering foreign influences synonymous with 'evil', is entirely against any such plan. Shou Lung is rather strongly based on historical China and it is difficult to overstate the rabid xenophobia and isolationism of many, if not most, of their regimes.
This extended into the end of the 19th century, mind you, while the rest of the world was busily modernising and growing ever wealthier trading among themselves. As a result, China went from world superpower to desolate wasteland riven by internal conflict for the next century or so, with occasional periods of mere poverty and peace.
A Shou Lung without rabid xenophobia might be interesting, but it wouldn't be anything close to China and it would be very different from the written Shou Lung in the Kara-Tur boxed set, where it is made rather obvious that educated upper-class Shou consider themselves the only real people and their civilisation the only civilisation.
Normal folk from border provinces might not share these prejudices, but they are not the ones who have the power to grant or deny licences to foreign mages who want to build magical transport gates. The border province folk are probably the ones who provide middle men who trade with Faerunian merchants, though.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Zakhara would also be a logical choice for a store.
I doubt the Amnish Gov't would allow her to open a shop in Maztica, though.
She has to have a 13th+ level wizard who is willing to physically travel to any potential location. That's quite a requirement and probably puts a damper on any urge to expand.
After all, anyone who is willing to work for her can probably be better put to use actually employing his magical talents for the months it would take for him to travel half-way across the world. She'll only expand when the demand in places where potential new hires have already been has begun to lag.
And there's no sign of that.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Also, one has to wonder why the Thayans didn't set-up a similar network with their enclaves (unless strictly prohibited to do so by the local authorities).
I can imagine that the local authorities would perceive it similarly as a modern one would respond to a request to set up an experimental fast-breeder nuclear reactor to make weapons-grade material on their ground.
Portals fail, often, and the result is often a terrible extraplanar invasion. Everyone fears this possibility. While teleport beacons are not portals, they are certainly close enough to trigger many of the same fears.
And I expect that the Thayans do not have enough 14th level wizards to go around for all the enclaves. That being said, I've established the existence of a secret teleport circle of this very kind in at least two enclaves and my PCs suspect that the Thayans are, indeed, working diligently to establish them in all enclaves, without asking or telling the local authorities anything that might alarm them.
Their eventual goal? Who knows? |
| Icelander |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 01:12:38
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Just to add another variable, because so far it's been a discussion about the quality of goods driving price...
Origin and "name brands" can significantly elevate price. Is the Gap, or Abercrombie, or D-squared, tremendously better in quality than Wal-mart or Ross? Why does my Birkin bag and my Prada jacket make smile more than my (way, way) cheaper alternatives?
Imagine the noble who can idly comment, "oh, we're importing Shou silk for the gowns this year."
If no one but the noble himself can tell whether or not he's telling the truth, such demand will not be common or particularly lucrative. Few people, as I said above, enjoy spending money merely to impress themselves. They want to share their sense of smug self-satisfaction with the world. In order to do that, the world must know the difference between the expensive and the cheap brand.
In other words, in order for a particular class of good to enjoy a prestige position, suitable for conspicious spending, the class must be somehow distinguishable from other, similar goods. That means that Shou silk has to be clearly distinct from Sembian silk, preferably at a glance, but at the very least upon inspection, so that there is little risk of anyone who matters failing to notice that you do buy the more expensive brand.
Remember, if it's too hard to distinguish, the noble who realises this and simply spends more on things that can be distinguished, such as better jewelry or dyes, will appear far more splendid for his budget. And since nobles are generally in a constant contest of influence, taste and wealt, with conspicious spending being a method of demonstrating all three, the nobles who realise that you can say that you are wearing x silk while paying only for y silk will be at an advantage.
This is the reason I say that in order for there to be demand for Shou silk for year after year, it must be clearly distinct and perceived as superior to Sembian silk. Theoretically, the perception is less important than reality, but given the fickleness of fads, it is most plausible that such a cachet will remain because there is an element of truth in it.
For a thought exercise in our world, imagine how far you'd get selling a name brand from a designer whose fame has faded, while continuing to demand three times the price of a similar one without his name on it. Or imagine anyone paying several times the price of an identical dress if no one could possibly tell which was the designer one.
In our world, companies that enjoy brand recognition spend a lot of time, money and energy trying to maintain their reputation for excellence. Indeed, that is the only alternative open if you wish to create a perception of excellence without the reality. To be fair, though, many of the 'name-brands' of our world do use materials that are far superior to cheaper articles. Compare the durability of Church's Oxfords with a pair of off-brand leather shoes.
As I believe I mentioned above, while the real world has examples of certain goods acquiring a cachet more or less inexplicable, like tulips in one memorable instance, such frenzies tend to be brief and the crash afterwards has a sobering effect. Shou silk looks to have been sought-after for quite a while in the Realms, for far longer than any such period of inexplicable fashion has held in our world. If it is considered better than Sembian silk, enough so that people pay several times the price, it is probably because it is better.
This is not incontrovertible so, of course, because there are snobs who will buy a much more expensive item for no better reason than because they can, but it can be safely asserted that these people are a far smaller potential market than the alternative, i.e. anyone who wishes to impress the quality.
It's the difference between someone who spends extra to get the finest champagne, because he knows that the truly important people will notice what he serves (even if many won't), and a person who will pay a dethroned monarch living in exile somewhere an obscene amount of money to walk a dog inside a private garden, where no one will ever see him do it. One person is playing an elaborate social game for advantage and prestige, as well as perhaps being a snob and/or enjoying good champagne. The other is simply at his wits end at how to spend all his money and has taken to eccentricity*, contriving increasingly pointless and elaborate ways to spend it.
Buying silk from Shou Lung is silk of equal quality exists in Sembia falls under the latter. If the Sembian silk is not of the same quality, however, it will also be bought by others than enourmously wealthy eccentrics and is therefore worth importing in some quantity.
*It is well known that at beyond a certain yearly income, insanity is technically impossible. One merely acquires eccentricity in increasingly charming amounts. Royal blood, then, is a sovereign cure for eccentricity as well as anything else that in mere mortals would be perceived as mental illness. A royal personage merely cultivates an unwordly demeanour, as well as lacking the caution of common men. Some happy royals succeed to the extent of having clearly managed to leave this world behind entirely, even while apparently still walking around in it. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 01:06:23
Brand-recognition mass consumerism on such global scale is an invention of modern society, and even today there are still people who reject the notion.
Certainly there have always been eclectic scholars, collectors, dilettantes, and aristocrats willing to commission inflated prices for all sorts of strange and wondrous things, and craftsmen capable of producing masterpiece commodities (like books, musical instruments, jewellery, weapons, and suits of armour) have always been able to command outrageous premiums for their skills.
But the overwhelming majority of people in a feudal society aren't able to waste coin on exotic luxuries, they purchase the things the need from the sources they trust. Even the "middle-class" are comparatively rare and tend to emulate the trends of higher social castes, they aren't numerous or affluent enough to substantially impact market trends.
These people lived in a different time and smaller world. A craftsman took some measure of pride in only doing quality work and he would be apprehensive about selling shoddy goods - his livelihood depended on his customers, the very same people he'd eventually have to purchase things from himself. Selling leaky barrels, flimsy carpentry, flawed cookpots, and brittle horseshoes would be the mark of an inferior craftsman who would soon be out of work. One "brand name" was much the same as any other, a punchstamped hallmark or painted signature which only guaranteed the item was good quality. Anything beyond that became the realm of legendary masters sought out by clients and patrons ... and for good reason, because their brands were absolute promises of superior products. Compare an original Stradivarius to a violin made by a lesser luthier. |
| Therise |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 22:43:16
Just to add another variable, because so far it's been a discussion about the quality of goods driving price...
Origin and "name brands" can significantly elevate price. Is the Gap, or Abercrombie, or D-squared, tremendously better in quality than Wal-mart or Ross? Why does my Birkin bag and my Prada jacket make smile more than my (way, way) cheaper alternatives?
Imagine the noble who can idly comment, "oh, we're importing Shou silk for the gowns this year."
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 22:10:25
lets not forget Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue as well.
She has her own Faerun-spanning portal network, just for merchandise, and probably has expanded to other continents/sub-settings by now as well.
Think on how cheaply she can ship Shou silk compared to others. Zakhara would also be a logical choice for a store.
I doubt the Amnish Gov't would allow her to open a shop in Maztica, though.
Also, one has to wonder why the Thayans didn't set-up a similar network with their enclaves (unless strictly prohibited to do so by the local authorities). |
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