| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 01:50:53
I've only started reading non-Drizzt novels 5 years ago. I've read about 15 Realms novels per year since then, and more than 50 novels later (almost all bought in the first year), I see the end of my must-read list. I had about 30 years to cover, with a few recent material here and there, so it took me some time. Now that I am about to buy novels again, I started shopping around. Imgine my surprise when I realised that the follow-up to the excellent Downshadow, Shadowbane, is eBook only.
What did I miss? I've read a couple of 4e novels, and none of them had such cruel treatment. Didn't they read Downshadow? Did they think it wasn't worth a paperback release? Are they insane?
Ebooks have merit, and good for you if you are satisfied with them. I love technology, I'm en electrical engineer, so I'm usually biased FOR everything turning electronic. Books are not the case, eBooks have no charm, eBooks do not make a nice librairy (yes, it counts for something). eBooks do not get old and dusty, with a folded corner here and there, feel like they lived through something, like the reader did when he went through it.
They are not even much cheaper. I know what a pdf download is worth in terms of cost in data transfer (not much) and I have a good idea what a paperback is worth (not much, but much more than a pdf). It is a shame that a marketing decison to increase profit (a reasonable goal) comes at the detriment of something as fundamental as the pleasure of reading a printed book.
So I'm stuck, in one hand I want to read all that Erik, and other authors too, has to offer. On the other, I don't want to send the message that it is OK to go eBook-only, that I will pay up anyway.
Damnit, raise the price if needed, but allow me my printed book.
Rant over.
And just to be clear, I think eBooks are great for people who use them. Go ahead and release an ebook for every novels. I'm only against the eBook-only policy. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Clad In Shadows |
Posted - 05 Jul 2012 : 18:42:30
As a completely 100% anti-ebook person, I just pre-ordered the Nexus 7 Android tablet. Fear not Erik, I WILL read your book. :) |
| BEAST |
Posted - 03 Jul 2012 : 21:01:48
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
I would love to see future FR novels available in each and every format readers prefer. (Except perhaps for cuniform tablets, which are very cumbersome and tough to sign.)
*Imagines Elaine lugging a hammer and chisel around to book signings.*
*Snickers*  |
| ElaineCunningham |
Posted - 03 Jul 2012 : 15:42:27
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
6 bucks for 1's and 0's?!? Give me a break, a paperback costs as much. This is crap. I'm sorry to the authors who lose money to people like me, but are you serious?? If they printed it, I'd gladly give you my money even if it turns out I hated it.
A eBook is not JUST zeroes and ones, any more than a paperback novel is JUST paper and ink. E-readers and paper are the delivery systems. What matters is the story, and if a story isn't worth 6 bucks, why on earth would anyone want to read it in ANY delivery system?
An eBook is not just a file. It's a novel, and as such it has many of the same costs as a paperback. It requires editing, copyediting, proofing, formatting, art, distribution, promotion, and office overhead. And I can attest from personal experience that an ebook takes as much time and effort to write as a paperback or a hardcover.
It's true that paperbacks have some expenses eBooks don't, such as printing costs, warehousing, and shipping. It's my opinion that when a new book is released simultaneously in print and digital format, the print version should cost more. But as more and more sales move toward eBook versions, the cost of an eBook has to bear a reasonable share of the book's production costs.
I would love to see future FR novels available in each and every format readers prefer. (Except perhaps for cuniform tablets, which are very cumbersome and tough to sign.) As POD technology improves, perhaps we'll see books becoming available in a variety of formats.
|
| Krafus |
Posted - 01 Jul 2012 : 00:24:11
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
Are you sure that was the kindle fire you saw on amazon.com? I just checked and its listed at 199$ for me.
My mistake: I meant the Kindle Touch, Wi-Fi, 6" E Ink Display. But the $99 price for US and $139 price for non-US customers is correct (clicking on the Kindle Touch ad on Amazon.ca's homepage directs me to the Kindle Touch's international shipment page at Amazon.com). So it looks like it's not just Canadians, but all non-US customers who get ripped if they want to buy a Kindle Touch. Lovely. |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 30 Jun 2012 : 20:33:14
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I've pointedly not argued against purchasing the reader itself. People don't complain that they need to purchase an iToy, MP3 player, phone, computer, television, CD player, DVD player, PVR, VCR, turntable, or other piece of hardware to actually view/listen/play/operate all the media stuff they're buying. In fact, entire industries and megacorporations feed on the consumer's need to purchase ever bigger and smaller and better and fancier and newer devices, it's as if people actually look forward to paying over and over again for that brand name tech.
As someone who recently shelled out megabucks for the lastest samsung galaxy I resent that.  |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 30 Jun 2012 : 16:33:08
I've pointedly not argued against purchasing the reader itself. People don't complain that they need to purchase an iToy, MP3 player, phone, computer, television, CD player, DVD player, PVR, VCR, turntable, or other piece of hardware to actually view/listen/play/operate all the media stuff they're buying. In fact, entire industries and megacorporations feed on the consumer's need to purchase ever bigger and smaller and better and fancier and newer devices, it's as if people actually look forward to paying over and over again for that brand name tech. |
| Tanthalas |
Posted - 30 Jun 2012 : 15:09:26
Are you sure that was the kindle fire you saw on amazon.com? I just checked and its listed at 199$ for me. |
| Krafus |
Posted - 30 Jun 2012 : 14:21:49
Although I prefer actual books to eBooks, after reading this thread I decided to go take a look at the Kindle on Amazon... and then discovered that the Kindle Fire, which is priced $99 on Amazon.com, costs $139,99 in my country, Canada. I could accept a price increase of up 20% to account for currency conversion (even though that's very nearly even at the moment) and the costs of shipping and customs, but 40%? There's no way I'll accept such a blatant ripoff. |
| skychrome |
Posted - 21 Jun 2012 : 02:50:44
My 5 cents:
1) Thanks Elaine for posting the explaination! Absurd but at least one starts to understand this archaic model.
2) I understand the negative comments on ebooks, but since I bought my Kindle, I love it! I start prefering it very much over paper books, which I never believed would happen until I tried it. I wouldn't read on iPad and such though. The special grace about Kindle is that it is not a lighted computer screen, which is no go after 10 hours office per day.
3) As long as WoTC does not resolve the rights issue, I will not be able to purchase FR eBooks and limit myself to occasionally buying a paper novel instead of the frequent consumption I used to have.
4) I reward publishers who publish eBooks worldwide. That's also the reason why I pre-ordered Paul S. Kemp's "The Hammer and the Blade", (which is available worldwide) instead of downloading it after its release date. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 20 Jun 2012 : 20:38:21
I stare at a computer screen all day long at work, so the last thing I want to do when I get home is spend MORE time staring at a screen while enjoying my favorite hobby: reading. Our society is too plugged in for my taste. |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 20 Jun 2012 : 19:44:27
I know it's taboo and against the CoC to even discuss it, but the reality is, I can download every single FR sourcebook and novel in less than a half hour. If I were an author, e-books would piss me off. |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 20 Jun 2012 : 19:24:14
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
An extension of that argument might be that people should only pay $3.99 for an audio CD ... obviously less than a real piece of turntable vinyl. Of course, almost everybody has the option of printing sheafs of hardcopy for a dime while almost nobody can press their own vinyl.
Alas, I see that *all* of the readers for proprietary eBook formats (including Kindle) prevent the end-user from copying or printing the eBook. Ah well, more and more people are converting their iTunes into plain MP3/OGG formats, I expect that more and more people will convert their KindleBooks into plain PDFs once the novelty (and subscription fees) begins to wear thin. I can't really blame the publishers and vendors from trying to make profit ... although I still feel the entire book industry is trying to dominate tomorrow's technology with last century's printing press mentality.
Ayrik, I have to disagree. When I buy a $20 CD, even though it is ridiculous, I am at least getting something concrete. If you take care there is no reason for a CD not to last a decade or more. Now as if I buy an e-book, what am I getting? It's ephemeral, not quite imaginary, but close. Have you ever had a computer crash and didn't back up your data? How hard is it really to take a finished draft, convert the format and send it out? I don't know how much an author gets per book, but it seems like trademark and distribution don't even begin to justify the astronomical price hike.
edit: Authors please, I don't expect you to divulge whether you get a quarter or a dollar for every copy sold, but am I totally deluded?!
edit2: And yes I know that I am perfectly capable of taking my e-book and transferring it into whatever format my software is capable of as a hard copy, but, damnit man, it's a book. I don't want to have to grab a CD, rip it up, transfer it to a jump just so I can read it on my tablet everytime I don't quite remember something. |
| Clad In Shadows |
Posted - 20 Jun 2012 : 19:14:17
For me, price has nothing to do with it. I'm the type of guy who will buy hardcover over paperback. Every time. I don't care that it's more expensive. It's the version I want. Same thing with paper vs ebook. I would rather pay 20 bucks for a hardcover book than pay 1 dollar for the equivalent ebook.
But, I'm not stupid. RLB is right. Ebooks will (over time) phase out paper books. Unless something major happens. I've come to accept this. When given no other option, I will purchase an ebook. I'll do it grudgingly, but I'll do it. Wizards is slowly doing to other books what it did to Erik's. Bruce Cordell's new one, as well as Rosemary Jones' novellas are ebook only. I don't want to miss out on potentially awesome reads because I'm too stubborn. |
| Richard Lee Byers |
Posted - 20 Jun 2012 : 19:00:43
Erik's right. Writers only determine the price of an eBook when we self-publish.
When we don't, we have our own issues with eBook pricing and how the publisher divvies up the money. But since those are our concerns and not those of the readers, there's probably no point in laying them out here.
Not that I have a crystal ball or anything, but I think eBooks are the future. They simply offer too many advantages to a world that's getting more and more accustomed to getting its information and entertainment electronically. But I also think paper-and-ink books will be with us for a while longer. I give them twenty years. After that, publishing will all be electronic except for special collectibles.
Meanwhile, the industry is in transition, and Ayrik has a point that in large measure, it's clinging to an outmoded business model. The problem is that nobody has come up with a new business model that will allow traditional publishers like Random House and Wizards of the Coast to thrive. So for the moment, they have to rely on the methods they've got. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 20 Jun 2012 : 18:30:34
Fellfire, your feedback about pricing should be directed to the people who decide it: the publisher.
In this case, WotC.
In most cases, we authors have nothing to do with it.
Cheers |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 20 Jun 2012 : 18:30:06
An extension of that argument might be that people should only pay $3.99 for an audio CD ... obviously less than a real piece of turntable vinyl. Of course, almost everybody has the option of printing sheafs of hardcopy for a dime while almost nobody can press their own vinyl.
Alas, I see that *all* of the readers for proprietary eBook formats (including Kindle) prevent the end-user from copying or printing the eBook. Ah well, more and more people are converting their iTunes into plain MP3/OGG formats, I expect that more and more people will convert their KindleBooks into plain PDFs once the novelty (and subscription fees) begins to wear thin. I can't really blame the publishers and vendors from trying to make profit ... although I still feel the entire book industry is trying to dominate tomorrow's technology with last century's printing press mentality. |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 20 Jun 2012 : 17:32:26
$6.36 or whatever. Who cares? If I should lose my electricity in the coming zombie apocolypse, I'd like to have a hard copy. An e-book should be no more than $3.99.
edit: No matter what!
edit2: Seriously, I can save a whole dollar fifty to get something or nothing?? |
| Clad In Shadows |
Posted - 20 Jun 2012 : 17:27:38
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
Ohgma's quill! Read a full length novel on a smartphone?! I think I'd rather eat my own eyeballs.
I've only read novellas on a smartphone. Which is why I'm waiting till I get a tablet before I purchase any full length ebooks.
That being said, I don't find it hard to read on a phone. I'd just prefer a tablet. |
| Clad In Shadows |
Posted - 20 Jun 2012 : 17:26:28
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
I will pirate this as a silent protest.
edit: 6 bucks for 1's and 0's?!? Give me a break, a paperback costs as much. This is crap. I'm sorry to the authors who lose money to people like me, but are you serious?? If they printed it, I'd gladly give you my money even if it turns out I hated it.
I don't know what paperbacks you've been buying but even the smaller mass market paperback books like those from Forgotten realms are a minimum of 7-8 bucks. In Canada they're 9 bucks minimum. I agree that the price should be lower than it is, but as it stands, it's still lower than paper copies. |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 20 Jun 2012 : 17:26:17
Ohgma's quill! Read a full length novel on a smartphone?! I think I'd rather eat my own eyeballs.
edit: But as I've stated before, Coldfire might be worth it. |
| Clad In Shadows |
Posted - 20 Jun 2012 : 17:22:43
I've been pretty anti-ebook, but I've come to realize that more and more publishers will be releasing e-book-only editions. I've had to buy a couple Stephen King ebooks, as well as a novella from the Coldfire series by CS Friedman because they simply were not released as paper copies. I will ALWAYS buy a hardcopy (and hardcover if at all possible) when available, but I feel less anger towards the ebook-only releases. I plan on getting Shadowbane soon as well.
I don't want to get an e-reader, but I do have the Kindle app on my phone, and hope to get a tablet some time in the near future where I can install the kindle app and read on a bigger screen. The tablet screens don't bother my eyes like some other people so e-ink doesn't interest me. |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 20 Jun 2012 : 16:56:35
I will pirate this as a silent protest.
edit: 6 bucks for 1's and 0's?!? Give me a break, a paperback costs as much. This is crap. I'm sorry to the authors who lose money to people like me, but are you serious?? If they printed it, I'd gladly give you my money even if it turns out I hated it. |
| Elsenrail |
Posted - 20 Jun 2012 : 14:57:47
I've checked Wotc products listing on Amazon for the second half of 2012 and for 2013. Ebooks far outnumber printed novel releases. This is really worrying. As many people, I have no pleasure in using an ereader (read on screen); reading a physical book (especially a collection on my bookshelf) is an unique experience.
Jaleigh Johnson's next novel is an ebook exclusive as well :/
http://www.amazon.com/Spider-and-Stone-ebook/dp/B008C8PMEG/ref=sr_1_12?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1340198849&sr=1-12 |
| ElaineCunningham |
Posted - 17 Jun 2012 : 22:26:21
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Going with Kindle Direct Publishing (KDP), for instance, may be self-publishing that gets you a good royalty rate (between 30%-70% depending on how you price the book), but that essentially shackles your book to Amazon, and distribution of the ebook is based on their policies, not necessarily your will.
Not quite accurate. Indy authors who use KDP can also sell their books at other outlets, such as Barnes & Noble NOOK bookstore, Smashwords, iTunes, and so on.
quote:
As someone who's looked into the options, it seems to me there's a huge amount of time and resources that goes into doing the things a publisher is better equipped to do: create an entire e-book line, secure editing services, do marketing/promotion, and provide a print-on-demand system that doesn't frustrate readers or bankrupt you. Not that it can't be done--obviously a lot of authors can manage it. It's just not as easy as one might think.
True story. It's a LOT of work.
|
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 15 Jun 2012 : 19:56:18
I share that hope. All I know is that they are working on it.
WotC often gets a bad rap for supposedly not making their stuff available, but most of the time it isn't their fault. They're big enough and complicated enough that distribution snafus happen on a regular basis. Let's all try and keep an open mind.
Cheers |
| Tanthalas |
Posted - 15 Jun 2012 : 16:10:40
Well, its good to know the legal stuff behind eBook availability, even though it does look like just another form of limiting consumer freedom. Hopefully WotC can sort the international availability of their eBooks for people living outside the US. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 13 Jun 2012 : 21:50:09
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I say the publishing "industry" needs to figure this all out or step aside or be replaced by a system which works.
Well, it's a little more complicated than that. Self-publishing is all well-and-good, but there are many different routes which have substantial pros and cons, which can require considerably more financial investiture than some authors are willing to make. Going with Kindle Direct Publishing (KDP), for instance, may be self-publishing that gets you a good royalty rate (between 30%-70% depending on how you price the book), but that essentially shackles your book to Amazon, and distribution of the ebook is based on their policies, not necessarily your will.
As someone who's looked into the options, it seems to me there's a huge amount of time and resources that goes into doing the things a publisher is better equipped to do: create an entire e-book line, secure editing services, do marketing/promotion, and provide a print-on-demand system that doesn't frustrate readers or bankrupt you. Not that it can't be done--obviously a lot of authors can manage it. It's just not as easy as one might think.
Cheers |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 13 Jun 2012 : 16:00:29
If I understand this correctly, a publisher needs to purchase licensing/rights to have permission to sell the book? And consequently, books might not be available to retailers in certain regions? Readers are basically unable to obtain books unless the publisher decides it's enough of a strong seller to splurge in bidding for more expansive rights?
To be sure it's business and everything of any value can ultimately be treated as a commodity. But to me it seems inane that an author wouldn't want the most widespread exposure possible ... and yes many authors are in it for the money of course, but still if they sell fewer copies they'll generate less revenue. By extension, it seems to me that authors wouldn't choose to deal with agents and middlemen who install these sorts of self-serving barriers. True, authors (like anybody else) sometimes can't get everything they want, and authors in niche markets will suffer even more restrictions.
The internet has enabled authors and readers to interact and be keenly aware of each others' status in real-time. Readers expect some sort of access to any books the authors produce - yet many are only able to see what amounts to being foreign commercials. I say the publishing "industry" needs to figure this all out or step aside or be replaced by a system which works. |
| ElaineCunningham |
Posted - 13 Jun 2012 : 15:33:17
Here's a great answer to the question of ebook availablity from P. Nielson Hayden, posted on John Scalzi's blog www.whatever.com.
*****************
Claudio Morais asks: “Why is the ebook version not made available worldwide considering there are no physical constraints that may apply for the hardcopy version?”
This question gets asked all the time. Not surprising, since it is in fact a perverse outcome of inputs which, considered individually, don’t necessarily seem perverse.
The entity that published REDSHIRTS last week, Tor Books, has the exclusive right to sell the book in the English language in the US, Canada, and the Philippines, and a non-exclusive right to sell it in English in all other countries of the world–_excluding_ the UK and a long list of Commonwealth and former-Commonwealth countries. A list which includes South Africa.
John and his agent could have sold us the “World English” package of rights, which would entitle us to publish the book in English everywhere–we would certainly have been willing to offer for that–but instead they opted to take the slightly riskier path of selling us rights only in our core market, reserving the “UK-and-a-bunch-of-Commonwealth-and-former-Commonwealth-countries” package to themselves, in order to try to sell it separately to a British publisher. (This is a slightly riskier path for most genre writers who aren’t top-level New York Times bestsellers, because British publishers don’t really buy very much SF and fantasy from the US below that sales level. This wasn’t always the case but it certainly is now.) After a period during which I imagine John’s agent shopped the book around to various British publishers (I don’t know the details because it’s, literally, not my business), they accepted an offer from Gollancz. However, that deal was concluded just a month or two ago, so it was vanishingly unlikely that Gollancz was going to get their edition out simultaneously with ours. I believe their edition is scheduled for November.
(Footnote here: An exact inverse of this situation is why Tor’s edition of Hannu Rajaniemi’s debut novel THE QUANTUM THIEF appeared in May 2011, several months after Gollancz’s edition in September 2010.)
The more interesting question you ask is: Why can you, in South Africa, buy a copy of the US REDSHIRTS hardcover from (for instance) bn.com in the US, but you can’t buy the US e-book edition? Why do online retailers pay attention to your address and credit card when assessing your eligibility to buy an e-book, while being willing to ship any edition of any print book anywhere?
The answer is a little arcane, but bear with me. The fact of the matter is that, when it comes to traditional printed books, neither the retail booksellers nor their customers (that’s you) are party to the contracts between John and his various publishers. Our contract with John says that _we_ won’t sell our editions of his book outside the territories in which John grants us exclusive and non-exclusive rights. Gollancz’s contract with John says that _they_ won’t sell their editions of his book outside the territories in which John grants them exclusive and non-exclusive rights. But if Amazon buys a bunch of copies in the US and someone in South Africa says “Hi, here’s my credit card, send me one,” no contractual agreement has been violated. Amazon owns those books, not us. They can do what they want with them, including selling them to people in South Africa, Shropshire, or the moons of Jupiter. Amazon is not John Scalzi, Tor, or Gollancz. You are not John Scalzi, Tor, or Gollancz.
(Another footnote: It has been perfectly possible and legal for regular people in the US to buy British editions for decades longer than the Internet has existed. For years one of the absolutely standard ads in the back pages of the NEW YORKER was a little panel ad offering “BRITISH BOOKS BY PHONE.” There’s nothing new about this.)
But the agreements under which online retailers sell our e-books include restrictions, imposed by us, which require them to keep track of where orders are coming from, and require them to refuse to sell to individuals who seem to be trying to purchase from outside the areas in which we have the right to sell. Effectively, in this case, Amazon (or bn.com, or Apple, or Kobo, or whoever) _is_ a party to our agreement which John. So they can’t sell you that e-book, because we don’t have the right to sell copies in South Africa.
(Two footnotes. First, yes, everyone knows that there’s a limit to how thoroughly anyone can police these restrictions. Get a VPN connection that makes you look like you’re online from a country where we have the rights, and a credit card with a US or Canadian address, and you can probably buy the ebook with no problem. Second, the agreements I referred to concerning ebook sales, between us and the online ebook retailers, have nothing in particular to do with any current arguments over “agency models” versus other models of ebook retailing. These restrictions were in place before the “agency model” and they’re in place now.)
Does this sound like a lot of bullshit gobbledegook? Probably. Is it true? Absolutely. Did it happen because everyone rolled out of bed one morning and said “Let’s make global ebook retailing baroquely complicated, because annoying our customers is fun”? No. Does the book industry need to be rethinking how it handles this stuff? Yep. Is it? I think it’s starting to. Meanwhile, you wanted to know why–and that long explanation is the “why.”
|
| Kilvan |
Posted - 15 May 2012 : 16:59:56
I'm hoping for a paperback omnibus release once Erik's trilogy is done (the first of many I hope). I won't hold my breath though |
|
|
