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T O P I C    R E V I E W
Jeremy Grenemyer Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 16:53:09
The Rise of the Underdark is upon us.

See THIS LINK for a video and information on the event.

I’m curious how this will affect the Realms: will it be the latest RSE or just one of those regional things that happened?

Glad to see the Realms getting some more attention.
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Gary Dallison Posted - 14 Oct 2014 : 14:20:12
Well 1370s all the way for me (before it got silly anyway around 1372).

The history history is always much more interesting anyway.

I'm never gonna stop with FR or D&D, if i have to rewrite the entire future history of the setting myself then so be it. I already dont purchase their rulesets since 3rd edition was the pinnacle for me, it just needed tweaking to perfection.

I wonder how many years it will be before i purchase another FR product?

Oh and George, keep on producing that 1350s, 60s, and 70s stuff. I will never tire of Impiltur and its surrounding regions, well not your version anyway, the 4e version onwards can take a running jump off a cliff.
Markustay Posted - 14 Oct 2014 : 13:22:22
Well, the way I look at it, they'll never lose me as a gamer (and didn't even during 4e - I played 3e... Paizo just renamed it is all). The bad meta-plots that drive the setting with RSE's will only lose 'setting fans', and those are the ones who read the novels. That means a lose of novel-sales, which means losing a lot of extra revenue for most of them. They are shooting themselves in the foot, NOT ME.

I will continue to enjoy MY version of FR until the day I die. There are dozens of other fantasy series I haven't even gotten to yet, so I am not worried about my reading - I still have plenty to choose from. If the FR 'story' gets good again, then I will go back to reading it.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 14 Oct 2014 : 05:00:33
DMs and players can do what they want, but what WotC does with canon obviously affects them majority of us, otherwise we wouldn't vent when they do something we don't like. Yeah you could choose to say the Spellplague never happened or X god wasn't killed on your homebrew, but in canon it did, and if we really didn't care what happened one way or the other, we wouldn't be here.
xaeyruudh Posted - 14 Oct 2014 : 03:57:20
That dry, dusty historical lore is good stuff.

I just meant that WotC hasn't been publishing such things... except occasionally when they're brief enough to be snuck into a "modern" piece as background. The setting deserves better than that.

But yes, individually we're free to do whatever we want. Like have the sarrukh reappear and enslave everything again, and make the PCs dismantle their empires. I'm not feeling constrained.
George Krashos Posted - 13 Oct 2014 : 23:42:17
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Off-topic, but it really isn't, because WotC has done exactly the same thing. After the Time of Troubles, nobody wrote about 1357 anymore. After the return of Shade, nobody wrote about 1365 anymore. After the Spellplague, nobody wrote about the 1370s anymore. Individual DMs have an advantage that WoW players don't have... we can set our campaigns in any timespace we like. We can dwell in whichever era we like, and even expand the content for ourselves. But WotC hasn't been doing that, and that is (again, just my opinion) a colossal fail.



Done lots of 1350s writing in the last few months. Writing in the 1370s now and trying to work up a 1360s angle. Official WotC lore might not go there, but that doesn't stop the fans.

Actually, I've spent the last week predominately crafting lore for the period before there was a Standing Stone. That dry, dusty historical lore isn't for everyone, but it can provide a good basis for ideas sometimes.

What, I'm trying to allude to is that we shouldn't feel constrained by where WotC is on its FR journey. Where are we as individuals, as gaming groups and as a collective, on our FR journey? That's what really counts isn't it?

-- George Krashos
Demzer Posted - 13 Oct 2014 : 22:20:35
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

I actually loathe the storyline. Its name dropping at its worst with a few Mary Sue's thrown in and a distinct lack of depth to the plot.



Oh well, Elminster didn't do much in the whole expansion. He kills a bebilith the first time you enter the Demonweb Pits, acts as quest/reward giver, keeps a couple of portals open and says a lot of "ye". The farmgirl takes down magical barriers in a quest and then just gets kidnapped and does nothing until the final cut-scene-style confrontation with Lolth.

Now, if you want to find a fault in the whole thing, the problem is that during the last big quest (a "raid" with 12 players instead of the regular 6) you supposedly attack Lolth at the core of the Demonweb Pits to rescue the farmgirl, and instead of obliterating you the greater goddess just tries to stomp you with her colossal spider legs or smite you with weird laser-like eye-rays.

I think Ed collaborated with the developers only for the Elminster bits in this one and he collaborated more on the successive Faerunian expansions (against Sharrans in Wheloon [that gets overrun by shadow magic, undeads and Sharrans], the Halls of Eveningstar and against Aurgloroasa [i think?]), but i may be very wrong and i haven't logged in the game or in the game forums in months so i'm not up to date anymore.
Markustay Posted - 13 Oct 2014 : 19:40:36
Well, obviously they were trying to bring FR fans into the DDO by crossing-over, and also bring Lolth into Eberron (that whole 'lets merge everything together in an unrecognizable stew' mindset that lead 4e). Don't get me wrong - I love cross-contamination (and so does Ed, considering the most basic concept of The Forgotten Realms) - but 4e went beyond what 2e did, with its trio of 'meta-settings'. 2e left each setting unique, while allowing us to travel between them. 4e blurred the lines and tried to lump everything into some vague, amalgam-setting (Nerath... and I can't even find a version of the map online anymore!)

So, I don't mind some cross-pollination, when it is done in-game and with a good story behind it, but when it is done purely for business reasons (mixing the fan-bases), then that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

EDIT: Agree with xaeyruudh on everything. I loved playing WoW, and enjoy the lore (and have even read a few of the books), and although its not anywhere near as deep as FR, its above-par for what it is. The thing they DO RIGHT is write the novels set in the past history of the game (the ones I read actually took place between Warcraft2 and WoW). That way, the setting isn't driven by the novels, but rather, the novels help to back-fill in the story that is the setting.
xaeyruudh Posted - 13 Oct 2014 : 19:23:37
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus

This is why table top gaming always trumps video games in my eyes. Very difficult to build true depth into an MMO while still creating a playable game. <snip>. It's a tough nut to crack for the video game industry.


I'm not disagreeing; they haven't figured it out yet. But I don't think it has to be difficult. Particularly with the longer-lasting companies and the series-of-sequels we've already seen. Diablo and WoW for instance. The key is (imo) to retain all/most of the old content as you move forward.

Azeroth has a ton of lore --not on the Realms' level, but a lot more than other video games-- but it doesn't feel like a real world. One of the places I think Blizzard has flubbed in developing WoW is that each new expansion is basically a whole new game. When The Burning Crusade came out, all of the level 60 dungeon & raid content instantly became irrelevant. Why would you even bother going to Molten Core when you'll get better gear from doing level 58 quests in Outland? Same thing happened with each successive expansion... everything that was done prior to that expansion became useless, irrelevant, and pointless except for the tiny fraction of people who run old content for nostalgia. Consequently the whole point of WoW is to reach level cap as quickly as possible, because that's where the game actually starts. Of course, it also brings the drudgery of dailies, getting mats for crafting professions, and so forth.

Off-topic, but it really isn't, because WotC has done exactly the same thing. After the Time of Troubles, nobody wrote about 1357 anymore. After the return of Shade, nobody wrote about 1365 anymore. After the Spellplague, nobody wrote about the 1370s anymore. Individual DMs have an advantage that WoW players don't have... we can set our campaigns in any timespace we like. We can dwell in whichever era we like, and even expand the content for ourselves. But WotC hasn't been doing that, and that is (again, just my opinion) a colossal fail.

Yes, time marches on and the world moves forward. However, the fact that some/many of us have declined to move forward with each new edition, and the fact that this trend got a whole lot of steam with the 4e changes in the Realms, means there is a market for continued development of "the old world" and WotC could be capitalizing on that. I understand economic constraints and priorities and all that bull... that's what it is: bull. The only reason most of us are still here is the freedom we have to selectively ignore/reject/improve what we don't like about the setting. That can't be done in an MMO.

This isn't about trashing WotC. It's about the drawback of games which strive to be immersive environments. One of their problems is that the developers invalidate some percentage of their earlier content every time they try to sell us something new. I believe this is a recipe for Fail which will always have blecky results... and I think it's true whether you're making an MMO or a pencil & paper RPG. YMMV.
Eilserus Posted - 13 Oct 2014 : 18:18:30
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

I actually loathe the storyline. Its name dropping at its worst with a few Mary Sue's thrown in and a distinct lack of depth to the plot.





This is why table top gaming always trumps video games in my eyes. Very difficult to build true depth into an MMO while still creating a playable game. Though I remain hopeful for Dragon Age 3, but that's not quite the same thing :)

I stopped gaming a few years ago (somewhat tempted with the upcoming WoW xpac), but had played most major online games since the Everquest days, ages ago. It's a tough nut to crack for the video game industry.
Eilserus Posted - 13 Oct 2014 : 18:12:23
I think Ed was brought in to assist with creating this expansion if memory serves.
Gary Dallison Posted - 13 Oct 2014 : 16:03:34
I actually loathe the storyline. Its name dropping at its worst with a few Mary Sue's thrown in and a distinct lack of depth to the plot.

Markustay Posted - 13 Oct 2014 : 15:56:23
VERY interesting. I like the cross-over stuff.

So Lolth's failed power-grab actually set-in-motion the series of events that lead to Mystra's return? I really hope we see more of this story expanded upon. On the other hand, I have to wonder if this conflicts with the stuff Ed wrote regarding her return?

Does RAS-lore trump Ed-lore now?
Demzer Posted - 13 Oct 2014 : 14:47:17
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Looking for more information about RotU...

From what I can see, the end of this was that Mystra returned - thats kind of important for it all to have just been swept under the table.

Also, I read somewhere that there was a portal to Eberron created for this event, because there was to be an FR expansion from Stormreach (D&D Online)?

How much of that never happened and just fell-through? It seems it was meant as the lead-in to 5e (even blending the rules from 4e & Next as the encounters progressed).



As i played through the DDO expansion i can relate what happened there, but i don't know how much of that is canon for the Realms and i don't know what happened in the encounter season (as RotU was some kind of big multiplatform event i think, at least it was advertised as that).

BIG SPOILERS FROM DDO: RISE OF THE UNDERDARK EXPANSION PACK!!!




The adventure starts in the city of Stormreach in Eberron, the players are asked to look into cult activities and discover fanatics looking to release ancient and very (very very) powerful demons from their likewise ancient cages (as a background, various drow NPCs start talking of another deity contesting their allegiance with Vulkoor, the scorpion-like drow god of Eberron). The players track the nearest prison and cultist cell and while they fight through the cultists one of the demons is released, the Spinner of Shadows, that looks like a big female drider. While the heroes battle the Spinner she "calls across the void" for "her sister" and in the end the heroes are unable to put the Spinner back into her mystical cage and Lolths makes her grandiose entrance detonating the prison, almost killing the heroes and opening a permanent ever-expanding portal to the Demonweb Pits.
With the portal threatening to swallow all of Stormreach and then all of Eberron (despite the attempts of the Eberronian druidic anti-planar-weirdos organization) the heroes give chase into the Demonweb Pits where they meet Elminster and witness Lolth absorbing completely the Spinner of Shadows.
After fighting through the Demonweb Pits and a patch of Underdark the heroes join Elminster in Eveningstar, besieged by a powerful army of drow from Sschindrylin. The drow and Elminster are looking for the Thread of the Weave and both parties think it's in Eveningstar, the heroes agree to help find the Thread while Elminster and War Wizards try to find a solution for the portal-swallowing problem Eberron faces.
After some adventures in the King Forest and Eveningstar a farmgirl shows incredible magical powers but no one seems to think she may be related to the Thread of the Weave in some way until, while destroying the Noble Houses of Sschindrylin and ransacking Lolth's temple, the heroes, Elminster and the farmgirl confront the High Priestess of Lolth that laughs, thanks for bringing her the Thread and sends the farmgirl through a portal into the Demonweb Pits.
After disposing of the High Priestess the heroes are sent again into the Demonweb Pits, where Lolth is experimenting with the farmgirl and extracting magical essence from here. The heroes run around beating tanar'ri, recovering orbs of magical essence and finally stopping the expansion of the portal gnawing at Eberron.
Still Lolth remains a threat and she has the Thread of the Weave so the heroes are sent directly against her, battle more tanar'ri, rescue the girl and make a run for it, succesfully going back to the Underdark through a portal.
Lolth, weakened from the fights, from the loss of many servitors and the escape of the farmgirl, decides to give chase and appears again to the party of heroes in all her divine grace, ready to roflstomp everyone. BUT the farmgirl says "No", starts spewing blue radiance and silver fire and bitch slap Lolth into banishment in a matter of seconds. Cue Elminster congratulating the heroes and departing with the farmgirl to someplace secret and safe.

If you want names of NPCs, places and such i'll have to log in the game to take a stroll through Eveningstar to give you the details, but the timeframe is surely 4E with ruined temples of Mystra and Lathander and priests of Amaunator running around.
Eilserus Posted - 13 Oct 2014 : 00:03:23
As far as I know the expansion did go through for the game. It featured parts of Cormyr such as Eveningstar? and the drow city of Sschindylryn. The FR cross-over was due to Lolth taking an aspect in Eberron and attempting to subvert the drow of that land.

Salvatore's just released Rise of the King is actually detailing out the War of Everlasting Darkness where the drow blanket the land in darkness. The old 2E Complete Guide to Elves made mention of Lolth covering the land in loathsome clouds of black for her final victory until Corellon intervened during the Elfwar. I find the similarity interesting myself.

Markustay Posted - 12 Oct 2014 : 21:17:59
Looking for more information about RotU...

From what I can see, the end of this was that Mystra returned - thats kind of important for it all to have just been swept under the table.

Also, I read somewhere that there was a portal to Eberron created for this event, because there was to be an FR expansion from Stormreach (D&D Online)?

How much of that never happened and just fell-through? It seems it was meant as the lead-in to 5e (even blending the rules from 4e & Next as the encounters progressed).
silverwolfer Posted - 31 Jul 2013 : 10:33:16
Some of it is cannon , not all of it, some of it was core d&d not just FR. The basic jist of it is, Lloth tries to make magic web her own, player characters help stop her, with the help of lady of magic, stop her, helps further the storyline on restoring lady of magic as a full goddess.
jerrod Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 23:41:43
Is the rise of the underdark considered canon? Or is it just an offshoot of some project.
Markustay Posted - 28 Apr 2013 : 20:25:45
Ah, so it was really a 'non-event' for anyone not bothering to play through any of that.

Gotcha
Irennan Posted - 28 Apr 2013 : 20:09:14
AFAIK, this RSE was resolved by players in those 'encounters' things, and the result was what I posted above. So I guess that they actually ended the storyline at that point.
Markustay Posted - 28 Apr 2013 : 18:13:32
Yup.

I would assume either there wasn't nearly enough interst generated by it, or that the 'powers that be' have decided to go another route (because the people in charge of certain things have changed).

On the other hand, there was a 20' tall statue of Lolth at last year's Gencon... but that may have been ordered before the story-line was shelfed.

Like I said earlier, I am expecting them to roll some of that (and the Abyssal Plague) into the new Sundering arc.
Thieran Posted - 28 Apr 2013 : 15:59:58
In other words, there was no official statement...
Irennan Posted - 27 Apr 2013 : 13:44:22
The drow were defeated. The Demon Weave was destroyed and one of Lolth's avatars was killed by some adventurers (with the aid of Mystra, IIRC), while she screamed 'Nooooooooooo' as her plan to wrap Toril in darkness crumbled. Or something along those lines.
Arcanus Posted - 27 Apr 2013 : 13:41:09
I don't really mind them dumping it because it never really got off the ground.
Markustay Posted - 27 Apr 2013 : 13:32:19
The Drow got tired and went back to sleep?

Actually, I think some of that may get wound into the Sundering (along with whatever unfinished, stray bits of of Abyssal Plague and that other series that got cancelled... I can't even recall the name anymore).

Authors don't throw away their ideas (and whatever finished writing they may have done), the simply recycle them as part of something else.
Thieran Posted - 27 Apr 2013 : 13:11:01
Whatever happened to Rise of the Underdark? Did they give any reason why they stopped the puzzle hunt?
Irennan Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 09:43:10
My point is that once a drow gets out of Lolth's grasp, none forces him/her to still 'work' for Eilistraee, Vhaeraun, or any deity at all (even in the case said person managed to break free with the help of E, or V).
Dennis Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 03:14:41

A very limited choice, that is. If you were a drow male, would you choose a goddess that favors the females who savor torturing you and treating you as toys and commodities, or a god that offers 'relative' freedom? Even if such freedom may cost a lot, it's obvious and reasonable what you'd choose.
Irennan Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 02:37:38
No, it's not the same. It is possible to still find one's own spaces while being dedicated to something. Also, I think that most people who 'work' for Vhaeraun's cause (because at the end of the day being an 'active' follower of a deity reduces to that, in D&D) do so because of their choice, not because they were brainwashed into it.
Dennis Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 02:32:15
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Meh, Vhaeraun expects dedication to his cause from his followers, but AFAIK he doesn't impose them what to think or how to live. He's a sort of revolutionary, nothing like Lolth II.
Which is ultimately the same. It's not always that one's way of life synchronizes with the dogma of his deity. Either because the temptation is too strong to ignore, or the faithful is, ironically, not faithful enough. And I doubt any deity, however 'revolutionary,' would tolerate that.
Irennan Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 01:59:26
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

I don't see it as dependance on divine support- it's more like religious fanatacism, at least regarding Lolth (and possibly Vaerhaun, as well). That stems more from a very narrowly focused view of what is acceptable or desired, as opposed to "Wah, I want my Blankie(deity)!" dependence. With E, that kind of fanatacism is utterly discouraged- it's simply not what she is about. Where the other two want to RULE the lives of the drow (and make no mistake, even Vaerhaun does- he's NOT a "freedom fighter" by any means, he's just determined to steal what his mother has claimed, by any means neccessary), E simply wishes to show them another way, that does not involve stepping on each other for "powah and da monies!" or acting like a much magnified version of the Vyshaan clan(meaning, arrogant, power-hungry and tretcherous). She wants them to return to the "true" elven ways, which is her ultimate goal in the end. To that end, yes, she wants them free of Lolth, but mostly so they can once more rejoin the elven race as respected and accepted equals.


Meh, Vhaeraun expects dedication to his cause from his followers, but AFAIK he doesn't impose them what to think or how to live. He's a sort of revolutionary, nothing like Lolth II.

quote:
It's a question of redemption, yes, but not from original sin, so much as TO the way they once were before they fell to Lolth's (and Vaerhaun's, and Ghuanadaur's, and...) influence. She is saddened by what they have become, and wishes more than anything to return them to their true selves- which as it happens, was the Ssri'Tel'Quessir! That's what the change was really about in the first place, to return them to their rightful place- it's right there in her message! "Come and take your rightful place in the Lands Above, where trees and flowers grow."



Maybe, but all this matter of the curse which affects even newborns (who have fault of nothing) and blah... feels a lot like the concept of 'Original Sin'. E wants the drow to be free to forge their own path and be able to go back to their roots, but her followers (and all the ones who got 'redeemed') are already there -free and 'redeemed'- and don't need (or even want) a change in skin color (or any kind of reversal) in order to be happy.

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