| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Mournblade |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 19:41:52
If the weave was unraveled, did the shadow weave remain intact? If not did the shadow weave users suffer similar problems?
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 28 Oct 2012 : 02:11:25
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
I believe it was a beam of fire (cosmetically silver-white) with a forward-facing antimagic beam at the tip that shut down the shadow shield (the beam was triggered upon impact with a spell-shield), and then resumed the fire effect which continued onward to hit the Prince... a relatively complex-sounding spell effect, if I do say so myself.
It was not sufficiently elaborated. We just know that somehow Telamont managed to counter a supposed to be 'un-counterable' force. Here are a couple of relevant lines from Troy Denning's The Sorcerer:
quote:
...Khelben raised his hand and loosed a stream of the shimmering magic fire at Telamont.
Crying out in rage and disbelief, Telamont had no choice but to lift both hands and raise a spell shield before him. Freed of the Most High's grasp, Galaeron plummeted toward the bottom of the basin and barely had time to cry out a spell of soft falling before the air erupted into whistling white sparks and cracking lances of black lightning. He brought his legs around beneath him and landed atop the mythallar itself—just in time to turn and see Vala come tumbling into Telamont
from behind.
What happened next was impossible to say. He saw Telamont’s shadowy feet fly, Vala's sword arc, and a black arm whip into the crackling air. All of them dissolved into shadow.
The blow of a tremendous hammer shook the mythallar...
quote:
"Harper hag!" Malik croaked. "I ought to tell them just for spite!" Again, his face contorted into a conflicted mask, and he added, "Except that after what happened in Shadowdale, I know no Chosen would ever be foolish enough to fling a bolt of silver fire into a being of pure shadow essence."
Galaeron did not realize Ruha's threat had been a ruse until he saw her exchange congratulatory glances with each of the Chosen.
Laeral said, "Not very helpful, Malik."
"Actually, we've already tried silver fire," Storm said. She didn't explain that the attack had only been a ruse designed to buy time for Vala. "Telamont blocked it with a shielding spell."
In fairness to the Chosen, although it was just momentarily, Telamont actually had to let go of his control over the mythallar to use both hands to erect his shield. Which only goes to say that the said unexplained shielding spell is far more complex and probably more energy-draining than controlling the flow of magic around the city's mythallar. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 01 Jun 2012 : 02:53:29
quote:
Originally posted by jerrod
Speaking of the shadowweave unravalling....isn't telemont composed entirely of shadow magic? Why is he still in existence? It doesn't make sense.did the wizards of the coast over look this detail?
I have some conjectures. One that I believe most likely is the case is this: Telamont bore witness to the Fall of Netheril, and knew well its cause. Magic is power. But it's 'regulated' by a higher being (deity) whose life is never secured. When the goddess of magic dies, the Weave unravels, rendering magic undependable. Telamont cannot depend on the fates of deities. Even Shar may die. As part of his contingencies, he must have researched and found alternative sources of magic---in the event the Shadow Weave collapses. It could be some negative energy from an unknown plane of existence which funneled through Shade's mythallar. |
| jerrod |
Posted - 01 Jun 2012 : 02:38:46
Speaking of the shadowweave unravalling....isn't telemont composed entirely of shadow magic? Why is he still in existence? It doesn't make sense.did the wizards of the coast over look this detail? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 07:35:43
When rules are broken, new rules can be established. I've no problem with wizards having to relearn spell-casting after the Spellplague; as long as they still can, and not always hampered considerably, then 'tis fine. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 23:52:44
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
With the exception of a few, like Seren (from Bruce Cordell's The Abolethic Sovereignty trilogy), wizards have to relearn spellcasting, working with new set of rules, or rather, creating their own rules in the absence of the established ones (by Mystra).
-If they decide to go with the route they were tossing around in the 5e preview articles about different mechanics for different spellcasters (The Vancian system [for Wizards maybe], 4e system [for Sorcerers maybe], feat-based spellcasting, and whatever else, there's a built-in explanation within the setting explaining the differences in the post-Spellplague world. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 23:45:03
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It still does, albeit not in good shape.
Source and explanation? I don't mind being spoiled.
LK has the right of it about Mystra's survival meaning the survival of the Weave as well.
In addition, Szass Tam himself cast a world window to see the condition of the Weave and the Shadow Weave after the Spellplague struck Thay. And he saw both still exist, but in tatters. It's detailed in Richard Lee Byers' Undead, Book II of the Haunted Lands trilogy.
With the exception of a few, like Seren (from Bruce Cordell's The Abolethic Sovereignty trilogy), wizards have to relearn spellcasting, working with new set of rules, or rather, creating their own rules in the absence of the established ones (by Mystra). |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 18:30:31
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It still does, albeit not in good shape.
-As it was.
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
Source and explanation? I don't mind being spoiled.
-In Ed Greenwood's new books, Mystra is still alive in some capacity, seemingly. Given that she is the Weave, if she exists, it exists (in some capacity). Also, following logic, if the Spellplague is the "Weave burning", for a lack of a better explanation, since we know that there are still isolated pockets of 'active' Spellplague across the planet, there still then must be isolated portions of the Weave still standing. |
| Eldacar |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 04:42:27
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It still does, albeit not in good shape.
Source and explanation? I don't mind being spoiled. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 04:02:54
It still does, albeit not in good shape. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 14 Mar 2012 : 02:08:09
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Agreed. Though sometimes I wonder why some elementalists do that, given that they don't draw power from the Weave, but the individual elements their bodies are attuned to.
-Unless something changed in 4e, they'd still be channeling magic through the Weave. With the exception of a few magical traditions that have been specifically named (Pluma, Hishna, Table, might be missing another), the Weave is always the medium between the caster and the 'Raw Magic' behind the 'curtain' that is the Weave.
EDIT: Duh, the Weave doesn't exist anymore in 4e.  |
| Dennis |
Posted - 14 Mar 2012 : 00:18:13
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-I always envisioned the physical components of spellcasting (moving your hands around, etc.) as the magician 'grabbing the Weave' and pulling/tugging/whatevering it to shape the spell that he/she/it is casting.
Agreed. Though sometimes I wonder why some elementalists do that, given that they don't draw power from the Weave, but the individual elements their bodies are attuned to. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 21:49:24
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
But its different for Elminster and certain gifted others. Its not just being able to detect types of magic by color, its more along the lines of how Neo saw the world at the end of The Matrix.
Elminster can literally 'reach into' those strands, and make adjustments - this goes way beyond normal spellcasting - it is like the ultimate form of Metamagic. He can bypass wards, change the the locations of the other end of a teleport or portal (and has done so), alter spell-effects or send them back at the caster (sometimes in a completey changed way) - he even managed to 'usurp' the Blackstaff from khelben (which even Khelben was perplexed by).
Its more then simple detection - he can literally re-write the 'underlying code' of magic. He can even make adjustments to the weave itself (which may be the combined ability of his natural gifts with him being Mystra's chosen).
Lets take that scene again at the end of The Matrix - all of us know thats computer-code (binary) - thats what most people with 'the gift' could see. We can see it (in that scene), but we can't read it. Neo can actually 'read' what it says - thats what Elminster can do. He can alter reality, like a god (but much more limited in scope, due to the power-requirements of making even incremental changes).
-No doubt Elminster, and various other powerful magi can do things that an amateur adept can't. It's just given that, in theory, the spell(s) allow(s) the caster to 'see' strands of the Weave, I guess that being able to do that much isn't all that uncommon among magicians. The better you are at it, obviously, the more you'll be able to do with it.
-I always envisioned the physical components of spellcasting (moving your hands around, etc.) as the magician 'grabbing the Weave' and pulling/tugging/whatevering it to shape the spell that he/she/it is casting. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 18:03:26
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Don't the effects of generic low-to-mid level spell allow magicians to "see strands of magic", with poetic license. With concentration, the Detect Magic 3e spell allows the magician to sense the different 'auras' that spells give off. Arcane Sight does the same, only stronger.
But its different for Elminster and certain gifted others. Its not just being able to detect types of magic by color, its more along the lines of how Neo saw the world at the end of The Matrix.
Elminster can literally 'reach into' those strands, and make adjustments - this goes way beyond normal spellcasting - it is like the ultimate form of Metamagic. He can bypass wards, change the the locations of the other end of a teleport or portal (and has done so), alter spell-effects or send them back at the caster (sometimes in a completey changed way) - he even managed to 'usurp' the Blackstaff from khelben (which even Khelben was perplexed by).
Its more then simple detection - he can literally re-write the 'underlying code' of magic. He can even make adjustments to the weave itself (which may be the combined ability of his natural gifts with him being Mystra's chosen).
Lets take that scene again at the end of The Matrix - all of us know thats computer-code (binary) - thats what most people with 'the gift' could see. We can see it (in that scene), but we can't read it. Neo can actually 'read' what it says - thats what Elminster can do. He can alter reality, like a god (but much more limited in scope, due to the power-requirements of making even incremental changes). |
| Dennis |
Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 01:26:06
Szass Tam was able to see both the Weave and the Shadow Weave (in their unraveled condition after the Spellplague).
Given that his entire being is now made purely of shadowstuff, it just makes sense that Telamont, too, can see all the colors, or lack thereof, of the Shadow Weave. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 01:15:56
Yep, Detect Magic does that. In fact, an instructor is going to cast that on Aeron Morieth to allow him to 'see' (actually, not see) magical strands when he casts shadow magic. Morieth then reveals that he can always see these strands and thus has no need of such a spell.
The way it's described, it seems to confer a much deeper understanding than it granted by Detect Magic. Which makes sense, as one is a brief adaptation of a sense humans normally use to allow it to perceive something else, but the innate ability to do this implies a level of being 'in tune' with the Weave that is above and beyond normal mages. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 00:45:57
-Don't the effects of generic low-to-mid level spell allow magicians to "see strands of magic", with poetic license. With concentration, the Detect Magic 3e spell allows the magician to sense the different 'auras' that spells give off. Arcane Sight does the same, only stronger.
-I vaguely recall Araevin Teshurr able to perform a similar feat during the Last Mythal trilogy. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 00:34:01
My mind's blurry on the details. I might have to revisit that part of the novel. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 00:13:21
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I'm not sure about that. I think what he saw during his training with the elven archmage was more like 'reflections' of the colors of magic, which might not necessarily be that of the Weave, but the raw one.
He saw the Weave, but not Shadow Magic. It was made pretty explicit that this was how it originally worked for him. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 00:00:51
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Elminster is so powerful because he can literally 'see the strands' of magic.
So did Vhostym. Before he created the Weave Tap, he first examined the primary source of Toril's arcane magic---the Weave itself. He described it as something akin to a gigantic 'web.'
As did Aeroth Morieth, from the beginning of his career.
I'm not sure about that. I think what he saw during his training with the elven archmage was more like 'reflections' of the colors of magic, which might not necessarily be that of the Weave, but the raw one. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 12 Mar 2012 : 23:37:31
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Elminster is so powerful because he can literally 'see the strands' of magic.
So did Vhostym. Before he created the Weave Tap, he first examined the primary source of Toril's arcane magic---the Weave itself. He described it as something akin to a gigantic 'web.'
As did Aeroth Morieth, from the beginning of his career.
This seems to be a fairly 'common' trait marking greatly gifted users of magic.
As a GM, I've given it to a PC mage who died in Mystra's service and was reborn as a reward for her sacrifice. In game terms, little more than vision that functioned without reference to light (but only saw magic), as well as the equivalent of a permanent Detect Magic.
In roleplaying terms, cool as hell. Allowed for metaphysical descriptions in the narrative, puzzles relying on 'feels' and 'colours' of magical aura and so on. Hints that may or may not be tracable to divine aid could be slipped on, with the players being able to rely on the fact that they wouldn't be traps, but with no way of knowing if they were about to stumble into something heroic again. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 12 Mar 2012 : 23:19:54
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Elminster is so powerful because he can literally 'see the strands' of magic.
So did Vhostym. Before he created the Weave Tap, he first examined the primary source of Toril's arcane magic---the Weave itself. He described it as something akin to a gigantic 'web.' |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 12 Mar 2012 : 17:24:49
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Elminster is so powerful because he can literally 'see the strands' of magic.
While I am sure this is something that he achieved after becoming a Chosen, I think its more of a 'potential' type of thing - that he would have been a great Mage regardless, and anyone given the power of a Chosen is powerful, but someone like him - with nearly unlimited potential - given the power of a Chosen increases that power exponentially.
Ahem. Yes . . .
[Resists the urge to say something more.]
Nothing to hear here. Carry on.
Cheers |
| Eldacar |
Posted - 12 Mar 2012 : 01:52:01
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Not all the princes who fought the Chosen could easily cast epic spells. They could have perished in that battle had the Chosen opted to use their silverfire to all of them. Ergo, the complex (but less tedious and less energy-siphoning than epic spells) manipulation of their shadow magic was more likely what they did to save their royal assess.
Actually, I believe (as has been pointed out) that it was only Telamont who was able to shield himself from silver fire. Easily argued as a custom-researched epic spell that is based on the Shadow Weave (but, as I noted, draws on raw magic more than his usual base for spells).
Galaeron's magic is naturally less powerful. It causes a heavy disruption in reality when impacting Shadow Weave magic, represented by the instant sundering of the powerful Sharnwall. It rends magical bindings and damages the "planar fabric" of Toril. However, by comparison, silver fire is immensely strong and represents the raw energy of the Weave. So when it impacts Shadow Weave magic (such as what happened at the end of the novel), the damage to the planar fabric not only rent all magical shields and protections around the Shadovar it was aimed at (reference is made to it imploding the shield he was using, and in the subsequent book the Princes state that the individual in question was slain by the attack), but it went one step further and opened the hole in reality, simply because of the energies involved.
Perhaps the rending effect against Shadow Weave magic is because it breaks the spell apart along with any other active effects in the vicinity, and then keeps on "pushing" until a tear opens up or its energy is spent (granted, perhaps). Were this the case, then putting more "power" into the spell would enhance it from a not-quite-real shell to something able to "dissipate" all the energy without leaving it nowhere else to go but discharging its effect against the planar fabric. It gives the silver fire something to expend all its energy against.
And (just to repeat) Telamont would then be able to deflect the silver fire because his shield was either not wholly Shadow Weave, if at all, or because he threw so much power into it that it was able to completely absorb the discharge.
He pointed out with regards to the false silver fire* that the Phaerimm used that when he stuck his hand into the after-effect everybody in the room would have been standing in the middle of a dimensional rip. Since Telamont is composed of "not-exactly-living shadow magic" he would naturally have no way to defend himself against it. He can't push more power into himself, after all. He can do it to his spells. It would also explain why he would design such a defense in the first place. If Telamont was hit head-on by a blast of silver fire, then the resultant effect would likely annihilate him.
Naturally, I'm just speculating, but some of it does seem to be true.
* I believe it was a beam of fire (cosmetically silver-white) with a forward-facing antimagic beam at the tip that shut down the shadow shield (the beam was triggered upon impact with a spell-shield), and then resumed the fire effect which continued onward to hit the Prince... a relatively complex-sounding spell effect, if I do say so myself. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 21:49:16
It’s possible he got divine help from Shar. But that would mean the Chosen got divine help from Mystra, too. Too much divine intervention often spoils the fun. So, no, I’d rather think he did it all alone. He was pretty much multitasking that time---controlling the mythallar so the city wouldn’t plummet to the desert while defending himself from the Chosen and their allies. (However, the Chosen were outnumbered by the princes.) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 20:54:24
It could also be a character (level) thing. They could be equal in terms of raw power, but are only as effective as the wielder (a matter of sheer magical might, or even willpower).
Ergo, sometimes one is more powerful then the other, or vice-versa, depending upon the circumstances and characters involved (which is a bit of a McGuffin, but it makes some sense - magic is about personal power).
Could Shar (or Mask, etc) be helping him somehow? I haven't read the series yet, but it seems plausible that at-times he may get 'divine help' (which is another way we can vary results without breaking continuity).
EDIT: It appears Icelander said much the same thing. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 20:24:11
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Even Chosen able to call upon magic in a fairly pure form, that of Silver Fire, are not able to shatter shields of shadow magic with it and fry the person behind in the same way that their Silver Fire has previously been able to penetrate any magical defences.
It was only Telamont known to have successfully shielded himself against silverfire.
Rivalen's heart nearly shattered when hit by the silverfire. Though it wasn't the real one, but the phaerimm's replica. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 19:59:11
The Shadow Weave has been repeatedly stated by those in a position to know to be less powerful than the Weave. The reasons given are fairly cogent and make sense to me.
Unfortunately, the way it has been presented, in novels, but also in sourcebooks, this has been treated as an 'informed attribute', if acknowledged at all. When Shadow Magic meets Weave Magic, the results appear to be determined by the relative strength of the caster, with no suggestion that there is any advantage to using the Weave. Even Chosen able to call upon magic in a fairly pure form, that of Silver Fire, are not able to shatter shields of shadow magic with it and fry the person behind in the same way that their Silver Fire has previously been able to penetrate any magical defences.
So, we have a sensible and logical state of affairs, as explained by Masters of Realmslore and Loremaster Greenwood Most High, but one that conflicts with how WotC has chosen to present things in their published literature. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 19:47:34
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I have a different theory for that. I think the Shadovar have the ability to modify their Shadow Weave-powered spells in terms of intensity and characteristics so they may control the instances of them tearing the fabric of reality when countered/mixed by powerful Weave-based spells, like the Chosen's silverfire. Melegaunt and Galaeron's clash of spells didn't create rift in reality, but instead tore a hole in the Sharnwall.
True, but it also needs to be pointed out that Galaeron's magic is significantly less powerful than silver fire (and that silver fire is not a spell).
Not all the princes who fought the Chosen could easily cast epic spells. They could have perished in that battle had the Chosen opted to use their silverfire to all of them. Ergo, the complex (but less tedious and less energy-siphoning than epic spells) manipulation of their shadow magic was more likely what they did to save their royal assess. |
| Eldacar |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 14:25:03
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I have a different theory for that. I think the Shadovar have the ability to modify their Shadow Weave-powered spells in terms of intensity and characteristics so they may control the instances of them tearing the fabric of reality when countered/mixed by powerful Weave-based spells, like the Chosen's silverfire. Melegaunt and Galaeron's clash of spells didn't create rift in reality, but instead tore a hole in the Sharnwall.
True, but it also needs to be pointed out that Galaeron's magic is significantly less powerful than silver fire (and that silver fire is not a spell).
And when Elminster sees Storm's blast of silver fire streaking towards one of the Shadovar at the end of the first book, he actually wonders if that might not be a good idea - in other words, he wasn't sure what would happen, only that it would be bad, like a matter and antimatter collision. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 05:42:34
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It's been noted before, and I'll it say again. Telamont once erected a shield against silverfire and it held. And it was not some illusory magic, but a real, actual shadow magic shield.
I don't see how that changes anything. I already pointed out that even though the Shadow Weave is less "real" than the Weave, a spellcaster could still erect a shield that could defend against even the most powerful Weave effects, as long as they were willing to pour enough power into the spell.
The way that silver fire reacts to the Shadow Weave in that trilogy also makes it questionable, since if that shield was purely Shadow Weave, there should have been a giant hole in reality where the impact happened. I'd be more likely to believe that the shield was a construct formed from epic magic, rather than just the Shadow Weave, and if epic magic draws more from raw magic than through the Weave or Shadow Weave, then it also makes sense that it would not suffer from the same downsides/weaknesses, at least not to the same extent. Considering that Storm's silver fire created a rip in the fabric of reality back at the end of the first book when a similar situation to Telamont's occurred, I think the theory carries some weight.
I have a different theory for that. I think the Shadovar have the ability to modify their Shadow Weave-powered spells in terms of intensity and characteristics so they may control the instances of them tearing the fabric of reality when countered/mixed by powerful Weave-based spells, like the Chosen's silverfire. Melegaunt and Galaeron's clash of spells didn't create rift in reality, but instead tore a hole in the Sharnwall. Telamon't shield must have been modified in such a way. The Chosen didn't want a rift in reality, because it can open a passageway to the Nine Hells or worse---worse problems than the Shadovar themselves. And Telamont himself didn't want it either. His city would be the first casualty if he let it happen. |
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