| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Icelander |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 22:45:45
Some of the ethinicities have fairly clearly established histories and plausible deriviations. Others are more mysterious.
The Shaarans, for example, look somewhat like an artist's conception of stereotypical Native Americans, have names that appear derived from Nilotic languages and speak a language that is not related to any other Faerunian language. They started to roam the Shaar about six millenia before the raising of the Standing Stone and the canon sources are silent on where they came from.
My theory is that they were originally related to the Taangans of the Hordelands. The population that made it to the Shaar were among those defeated by the Imaskari and enslaved. I imagine that at least some of them were employed as herders in Nemrut, from which the path to the Shaar is wide open.
Remember, at that time, the Mulan have not yet been brought to Imaskar, so their sources of slaves are in the north and trinkle downwards. The southern lands of Durpar and Ulgarth appear to have been powerful enough to resist military conquest and direct enslavement (see the Gates of Iron), but not powerful enough to resist becoming economically and culturally subject to Imaskar. On the other hand, the influence was not all one sided, with Solon, the capital of Lower Imaskar, at some point becoming the northernmost bastion of Devic culture*. Likely enough, it was at this time that Lower Imaskar took up use of elephants, learnt from their subjects in Ulgarth and the Utter East.
Returning to our hapless slaves, burning for freedom, we find that some time after their capture, probably at around the time of the peasant uprising in Raudor, a group of these proto-Taangans rose against their masters and struck out to the west, coming across a great grass sea with marvellous horses that fit their every need. We neatly account for why Shaarans look vaguely Native American (because stereotypical Native Americans look vaguely Mongolian, i.e. Taangan).
Over the seven millenia since then, their language would have evolved out of all recognition from the Taangan ones, of course, so that's no problem. Not being written down, it would change very fast. In fact, it is very plausible that by the time that the proto-Taangans escaped at all, they no longer spoke their original languages, but instead only knew a bastardised version of Imaskari. It is easy to imagine them dropping that hated language in favour of the language of the first friendly culture that they came across.
But why does it sound vaguely African, at least in the names?
Well, now we come to some fancy explaining. Since the Days of Thunder, tribes of humans with black skin would have spread over the Chultan peninsula (at the time attached to a larger continent, Toril's Africa analogue) and into the lands that later became Tashalar, Lapaliya and further. It is even plausible that just as with Earth, all humans came from there and had already spread pretty much everywhere long before the Tearfall and Sundering. Of course, some became slaves to Creator races, others became food for them.
Ignoring the first, second and a lot of other waves of this diaspora, let's focus on those of the post-Sundering era. In that time, there were on the Chultan peninsula some tribes that resemble East African ones. We don't know what the Tashalan and Lapal tribes were like before their involvement with the Yuan-Ti, but they appear to have been lighter skinned. If there were Nilotic people anywhere, those are most likely to have been the Turami tribes, which appear to have been great travellers.
In any event, two millenia after our era, Turami tribes are found west of the Akanamere. They are said to have been driven ever westward by the Mulan (who, however, did not exist in Faerun at this time) and eventually ended up in Turmish. If we assume that at one point, the Turami lived all along the southern shore of the Inner Sea, we find that the escaping slaves would have passed through their lands.
The Turami seem to have favoured living close to the sea and not liked to go too far inland, while the proto-Taangans were nomadic herd people, so they did not intermarry much, but that does not preclude fairly extensive cultural mixture. The proto-Taangan brought the fruits of their hunting to the Turami and the Turami sold them fish, pearls and salt, among other things. This peaceful state of affairs would endure for four millenia, more than enough time for the proto-Taangans, now Shaarans, to have evolved languages hopelessly mixed with the Turami ones.**
*Which we shall examine in detail later. Suffice it to say that it may be one of the oldest human cultures and may have spread northward from the Malatran subcontinent, to Ulgarth before the Tearfall (which could have made the Yehimals much bigger, among a myriad of other changes).
**We are left with the problem of why the Turami names we see in the FRCS (but not in earlier publications, where they indeed were quasi-Nilotic in origin) are quasi-Spanish. Expect to see an explanation involving the nobles of that nation (but not the common folk) intermarrying and being culturally influenced by Tethens and Chondathans to a great extent, and then retaining an old naming fashion longer than the originating cultures. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Dec 2017 : 19:46:00
I never completed that, but the '3e era' continental map I did (with Krash's prompting) is perfect for something like that (which is what I think George may have wanted it for - he needed something he could paint 'broad strokes' on). In fact, it wouldn't even take me that long, using that...
But not right now. I have 3-4 other maps I am trying to complete by January 1st.
The full map (with kara-Tur) remains incomplete, however. That's probably why I didn't move forward with the human ethnicites/migrations map. |
| callumnen |
Posted - 10 Dec 2017 : 18:35:21
This is both fascinating and mind-boggling to read. Markustay, have you still got the human migration map you mentioned? |
| Sinjin Oban |
Posted - 03 Apr 2012 : 03:11:59
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
The Lapal and Tashalars were originally Katashakan tribes (as, indeed, all native Torilians were during the Blue Age before the Shadow Epoch), but must have diverged from their common ancestors long, long before the end of the Ice Age***. Most probably they were coastal people of northern Katahaka and what became Chult. At the time of the rise of the Sarrukh Mhairsaulk civilisation, they were already much lighter skinned than their more southerly cousins.
Why the Turami remained very dark skinned and the Lapal and Tashalans did not is somewhat of a mystery. Possibly the solution lies in deliberate breeding campaign by the Sarrukh. For some reason, olive skin and straight hair on their slaves pleased them, whereas ebony skin and curled hair did not.
I didn't know anything about the Katashakan until reading this post. Thanks for shedding new light on the Lapal people. Lapal migration has been of some interest to me. I've attempted to clear up the differences in nomenclature for Tashalan and Tashalaran in the Running the Realms thread: "Human Sub Race Tree?". I'll try not to repeat too much of that here. It can get tricky depending on what region and era you are referring to.
As for differences in skin color and bone structure between the decendants of the Katashakan, remember that the Lapal people were enslaved by the yuan-ti of the chultan peninsula for roughly 30,000 years after the "changing of the stars" that rearranged the continents and seas. I assume this is when the Katashakan people were separated.
Yuan-ti, like the sarrukh before them, hate the appearance and smell of humans. I'm sure there was some attempt to breed a more palatable human. The sarrukh and yuan-ti didn't need a good reason to experiment on humans. They just needed time, and a place to do it.
Yuan-ti breeding programs and experimentation aside, 30,000 years was plenty of time spent living in shadowed jungles for natural evolution to change the physical characteristics of the Lapal tribes. And they were farther from the equator than the Tabaxi and the Eshowe.
We will never really know how many Lapal people there were in the lands now called Lapaliiya. The last of the tribes besides the Tashalarans who could have been called Lapal were effectively wiped out by the time the Serpentes Empire fell in 34 DR. So completely, in fact, that "Lapal" isn't even considered in population demographics in Lapalliya. Nor is the language of the Lapal people referred to. The language we now call "Tashalan" would just as accurately be called "Lapalese" in a historical context.
Since the Tashalar was first settled in -553 DR (not in 583 DR as erroneously listed in Serpent Kingdoms*), by Lapal field hands and Calishite merchants from Lapaliiya, I always assumed the Lapal field hands began calling themselves Tashalaran after settling the area.
Chicken or the egg? Did they name themselves after the land or the land after themselves? Racially, they would have been separate from any other Lapal people in name only. I have found no canonical mention of Tashalaran or Tashalan as a separate ethnic group from the other Lapal peoples before the founding of the Tashalar.
Were they predominantly a Lapal tribe called Tashan? I can't imagine they would have taken many families into one of the most deadly regions on the planet. There is no mention that there were still people living in the Tashalar after the Lapal fled the area between 1,179 to 2,256 years earlier. Anyone who remained would have done so as slaves of the yuan-ti.
In conclusion: The Tashalaran, or Tashalan ethnic group, as they are called now, are Lapal. In fact, they are probably the only examples of truly Lapal people left. Since they were isolated from the rest of Lapaliiya, they did not suffer the waves of influx from Shaaran bloodlines which effectively erased the other remnants of the Lapal tribes.
If anyone has something I missed, please let me know. Thank you.
*I recently had to go back over some of my other posts and edit out mistakes I made due to some of my misconceptions about Tashalans. I made a Lapal specific timeline that only made sense after I studied the "Grand History of the Realms" and noted the mistake in "Serpent Kingdoms". Also, I mistakenly thought the picture on page 106 of the FRCS depicted Tashalans taking on a nest of yuan-ti. Those are clearly Thindolese, (racially chultan, specifically of the Thinguth tribe).
|
| Icelander |
Posted - 23 Feb 2012 : 06:56:39
My research indicates that the modern Durpari either have little to do with the historical Imaskari or that 'Durpari' is a cultural designator and actually includes several waves of immigrants and a range of 'ethnic' appearances, from Indo-Iranian-esque people like the Durpari male pictured in Shining South to Semitic-esque people, Nilo-'Hamitic'-esque and even Dravidian-esque individuals.
The description of them given appears to correspond to the vaguely 'Hamitic' or North African-esque part of the population, with the low average height being somewhat of a challenge to explain, given the long period of affluence enjoyed by the Durpari, the very hot climate, non-arboreal lifestyle of the population and the general similarity to climatic conditions that have produced some of the tallest people on Earth.
One might postulate inter-breeding with proto-halflings in Luiren... |
| Icelander |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 07:40:20
quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar
Where are you getting all this stuff about the Blue/Sapphire Age? Is it mentioned in passing somewhere or are you just homebrewing it from scratch?
Brian R. James, the author of GHotR, included two creation myths in his manuscript that were not included in the published version. The Sarrukh legend is that before the Ice Age that is mentioned there, Toril was covered in water until Dendar the Night Serpent swallowed the sun and plunged the world into eons of darkness.
Considering that the Sarrukh were in a position to know, if anyone was, and that Brian has elsewhere confirmed that the legend refers to factual events in his opinion, I see no reason to doubt the inherent veracity of this legend.
It even ties into the (canon) human legends, in that this happened during the War of Light and Darkness. Dendar becomes a servant (unwitting or not) of the Stormstar (Talos) and Shar, acting to keep Toril dark and frozen*.
Finally, the chunk of divine essence that Selune hurled at Shar, and from whose impact Mystryl was born, becomes the new sun that ends the eons of darkness.
Mystryl forces an uneasy truce among the powers, allowing life to quickly flourish on Toril after that. This would have happened before the Days of Thunder, but not all that much before it.
What is not canon, but is derived from it, is that after Selune summoned the Yellow Sun (the First Sun), the Earthmother birthed the animals and what would become humans from its skin. Oroborous the World Serpent** observed this empty world, with its deities distracted by fighting, and decided to create life in his image there. He was responsible for the proto-Thunderers (at that time the ancestors of serpents, reptiles and birds all).
The fish and the amphibians, not to mention the proto-Batrachi and the progenitors of the aboleth and phaerimm of the deeps, also came from somewhere. The most likely source is a power of the primordial oceans as life-giving force, lost with the freezing of his home*** after the arrival of the Night Serpent and the coming of the Cold Night. Or not lost, because the races of the abyssal depths certainly worship a mystery or two, and it is far from impossible that this power survives in some form yet.****
*Auril does not exist at that time, with her portfolios being part of the Stormstar, at that time embodying all the Gods of Fury.
**Who existed before Toril and the War of Light and Darkness, being a primordial power outside this single crystal sphere.
***Perhaps even imbuing a part of it with his (quasi)-divine essence to ensure that no all of it froze and that his creations thus lived on.
****Probabaly fragmented among his many creations, going from Neutral to all the alignments that are appropriate for a people as diverse as shalarin, kraken, phaerimm, aboleth and batrachi. |
| Eladrinstar |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 01:59:26
Where are you getting all this stuff about the Blue/Sapphire Age? Is it mentioned in passing somewhere or are you just homebrewing it from scratch? |
| Icelander |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 00:21:22
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for the Kalmyk/Raumvari from 'primordial times' - I wanted to connect them to the other northern proto-group somehow, but I can't remember what my reasoning for that was, if any. So be it - the first (human) Kalmyk would have been there pre-Imaskar, but not much further back then that. If that giant hole (the Great ice sea) was indeed created by a meteor strike (tear-fall), then it would have wiped any culture there, so they must have risen long after. The actual humans, however, may have even been a last vestige of the other group, after going through thousands and thousands of years of de-evolution (yes, I know there is no such thing, but its conveys a certain idea that I am going for).
So far, I'm leaning toward the first human inhabitants of the north of Merrobouros arriving there very shortly after the 'last glaciations largely ended' in -37,000 DR. The wording, as well as indirect climatic evidence (the northern range of the cold-blooded Sarrukh shortly later, for example), suggests that in those early days, before the map on GHotR p. 6, the glaciers are far smaller. Toril was hotter in those days, with the tropics nearly impossible for humans to live in, unless they found shade.
Well, going back in history a bit here, we all know about the Sapphire Age, when the oceans of Toril were hundreds of feet higher than they are now and the only land was scattered islands. Who, if anyone, lived on most of them, we don't know. We do know that either they were inhabited, or someone spent an awful lot of deific energy creating fully-formed land animals just after the New Dawn. Prefering the simpler, cleaner explanation, we'll say that early proto-Thunderers and mammals lived there, along with who-knows-what-else... and early humans.
The death of the sun killed nearly all these animals as well as the humans. Only around the equator did any of them have a chance to survive and that only because of some unknown force which warmed the equator*. In Katashaka**, humans*** and mammals shared a home, surviving the terrible Cold Night. Proto-Thunderers survived in the deep oceans, as well as some particularly warm valleys, but they were not commonly encountered by the humans of this era.
While the tropics at that time received some equivalent to sunlight, Katashaka was still frozen tundra surrounded by a tiny frozen sea of broken ice, enclosed with glaciers reaching north to over the southern-most mountain chain in the tip of Katashaka and south to the end of that western mountain range on the shores of what was the Silver Sea in -31,500 DR.
After the new sun rose, the glaciers that had surrounded the refuges of the few human survivors of the Ice Age started to recede. The sun was pitiless during the first few millenia of its life and many of these early humans** would quickly have started to move away from the worst of it. Some moved south and others moved north. There were those who prefered the cold and those who did not mind the heat so much. Few humans stayed on the equator itself, though, not for until the fury of the sun abated in -33,800 DR*** (and again in -31,000 DR).
Before that time, the Katashakan hunters of wooly things that lived where Mhairsaulk would later be settled started their exodus of the world, avoiding the extreme temperature of the equator. While they probably had no knowledge of sailing, it is not unlikely that some of them went over the Lopango Strait while it was still under ice and/or the sea levels were low enough for it to still be dry land.
For those who passed west of the great mountains they encountered, we have no tales at this time. They concern us not. Some of those who went east, however, eventually reached almost to the pole in pursuit of their rapidly expanding herds of megafauna.
The rise of the Sarrukh empires would have provided them with an excellent reason to run in terror as far north as they could, because that was the only place that the Sarrukh would not follow. But the Sarrukh did follow, given the incredible heat of the sun in those days, and the herds of megafauna were concentrated at the very edge of the poles, with the humans with them. This would have been in -35,000 DR or so, the very beginning of the Dawn Age.
Can you dig it?
*The same, or other, unknown forces might also have warmed isolated valleys nearly anywhere, but the further from the equator, the better the odds that an enormous glacier covered the place during this time.
**The equatorial regions of Malatra and Osse would likely have provided a similar refuge.
***At least one of these peoples travelled out of their native island cluster, either on foot or using small reed rafts, and traced the higher lands west over the modern day Chultan peninsula and into the Nataghal Mountains. Their travels did not stop there and by the time of Dendar's feast and the beginning of the Long Night, several populations of them survived near enough to the equator (or by some other means, divine or magical). We'll see later what happened to them.
****While they were already composed of several distinct ethnic groups, due to their development in relative isolation on their island homes before the Night Cold, they interbred fairly briskly after the receding of the Great Oceans. The most important distinctions between them became a) The people who lived on the islands around the Peak of Flames in modern Chult and spread out over what later became Mhairsaulk, living as big-game hunters, b) The nomadic hunter-gatherers of central Katashaka, c) The more settled cave-dwellers of the western mountains, who had the most vegetation around their warmish homes and d) The (cold) desert people of the far south.
*****The clash between Sarrukh and Phaerimm archmages not only reshaped the land where Netheril would later reside, it also changed Toril's climate permanently. Some sages theorise that the attempt to drown the Phaerin actually used some part of the sun for its component, but surely that is impossible. It would, however, perhaps explain the peculiar affinity of this area and large-scale ecological spellcraft if the Sarrukh somehow managed to bind the very forces of the world there.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There certainly WAS a very early, advanced Human group, despite what it may say elsewhere (I distinctly recall something about 'ape-like' humans a little over 10,000 years ago). Read Traitors in Realms of the Elves. That story has more then one continuity glitch, BTW (but I've dealt with the Elven one elsewhere). Or you can just read this Wiki entry.
Certainly yes, some of the dragonic slaves were favoured slaves and advanced in their way. But they didn't build their own societies, and, more importantly, they are far enough from any modern culture so that it would be almost impossible to identify them with one of them.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Advanced (not hairy), civilized humans, not only talking and interacting with both Dragons and Elves, but also becoming powerful spellcasters (at least one, at any rate), a little over 26,000 years ago!
As for 'hairy' humans, modern day humans on Toril are not really descended from them. They existed, yes, but they were either mostly wiped out by one (or all) of the other Creator Races or they were so few that the little admixture of blood they provided to modern humanity went almost unnoticed.
Even my 'pre-Ice Age' people who made their way from island to island were anatomically modern humans.
In fact, while I will include 'hairy' humans (canon mentions them), I'll not have them come from the same place as the others. They either diverged before the Sapphire Age (which would mean that there are more ages of Toril before it, perhaps going in cycles) or were simply created seperately.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Also, there are human ruins in the far north, attributed to some 'antideluvian people', lost in the midst of time. The Citadel of the Raven is one such.
Just so. We'll get there, I promise.
To be continued... |
| Markustay |
Posted - 14 Feb 2012 : 22:00:13
@Mumadar - Agreed. I like that, and may use it (with your permission, of course). I was thinking too much 'RW Celts'. Thanks for smacking me in the head (I definitely need that sometimes).
I would agree that the cultures should NOT be the same, and I would also like to point out that any of the terminology I am using - whether HB or canon - should be regarded as termininology created by modern Sages, to describe all of these things. Those ancient peoples would not have called themselves any of these names (some of them probably barely spoke at all).
As for the Kalmyk/Raumvari from 'primordial times' - I wanted to connect them to the other northern proto-group somehow, but I can't remember what my reasoning for that was, if any. So be it - the first (human) Kalmyk would have been there pre-Imaskar, but not much further back then that. If that giant hole (the Great ice sea) was indeed created by a meteor strike (tear-fall), then it would have wiped any culture there, so they must have risen long after. The actual humans, however, may have even been a last vestige of the other group, after going through thousands and thousands of years of de-evolution (yes, I know there is no such thing, but its conveys a certain idea that I am going for).
There certainly WAS a very early, advanced Human group, despite what it may say elsewhere (I distinctly recall something about 'ape-like' humans a little over 10,000 years ago). Read Traitors in Realms of the Elves. That story has more then one continuity glitch, BTW (but I've dealt with the Elven one elsewhere). Or you can just read this Wiki entry.
Advanced (not hairy), civilized humans, not only talking and interacting with both Dragons and Elves, but also becoming powerful spellcasters (at least one, at any rate), a little over 26,000 years ago!
Also, there are human ruins in the far north, attributed to some 'antideluvian people', lost in the midst of time. The Citadel of the Raven is one such.
Put those two canon facts together with the lore regarding the Creator Races - that humans are one of them - and you can see where I get most of my logic from.
There were FIVE Creator races before 'the world went kablooey' (thats a new technical term  ), and all five were nearly wiped out to extinction. Their legacy can be seen in that which they created - the many intelligent species currently existing on Toril, including (but not limited to) direct descendents.
My assumption here is that Giants and Dragons were both 'born of the Ice Age' - that period when the Creators fell. Those two groups existed before the fall of the creators, but the vacuum left by their absence allowed Giants and dragons to rise to prominence (both species being better able to handle severe climactic changes).
Dragons probably kept humans first as a food-source, and later as slaves and even companions. When the Eladrin arrived (because Sylvan Elves were already there), things got 'complicated'. Regardless, the humans were able to once-again rise, because of knowledge and civilization gleaned from those around them (humans are, after all, the finest 'mimics' in the universe - we adapt and evolve to circumstances much quicker then others). After thousands of years of over-lordship, the Dragon-Lords were taken-down by the Eladrin (High Elves) a mere 600 years (a single lifetime to them)after their arrival on Toril.
I am really not loving how things went in the timeline back then - too many things going on at once. That one story really screwed things up - the Dragon/Giants empires and wars should have come much later, and not over-lapped at all with the Creators.
If only we could go back and re-write the entire setting from scratch... so much could be fixed. {sigh} |
| Mumadar Ibn Huzal |
Posted - 14 Feb 2012 : 20:57:45
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I have to keep two tabs open for this (response from other thread) -
Paranormal Sites
I had all of the locations of pyramids and other 'strange phenomena' written down at one point, but thats gone now. There are some of those, along with 'Stone Circles' all over Toril, not just in Faerun. The Stone Circles I blame on my theoretical 'Cortae' group (since those are my 'FR Celts'). There is also 'the Mountain of Iron', with powerful magnetic properties, in the far NE corner of the Taan. As we know, cold iron is anathema to fey, so I suspect that isn't a natural phenomena, and was created to drive the Maraloi out of the region (more on them later).
Why would (all of) the Stone Circles have to be human 'creations'. There are several of these circles in the LOI region and I could very well imagine that these circles were created by giants, which have a big influence in the region for quite some time. |
| Eladrinstar |
Posted - 14 Feb 2012 : 18:36:18
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Most of Faerun's cultures will have spread far more rapidly than the ethnic groups involved. Expect customs and languages to diverge (or converge) much faster than 'races'.
Indeed. The Dalelands and Chondath both have the majority of their pop. as Chondathans, but they are very different places.
And I also agree with what you said about gaps of thousands of years not being insignificant. Even among elves and dragons that is a long time. After all, look how much human culture can change in only a century. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 14 Feb 2012 : 17:35:33
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Paranormal Sites
I had all of the locations of pyramids and other 'strange phenomena' written down at one point, but thats gone now. There are some of those, along with 'Stone Circles' all over Toril, not just in Faerun. The Stone Circles I blame on my theoretical 'Cortae' group (since those are my 'FR Celts'). There is also 'the Mountain of Iron', with powerful magnetic properties, in the far NE corner of the Taan. As we know, cold iron is anathema to fey, so I suspect that isn't a natural phenomena, and was created to drive the Maraloi out of the region (more on them later).
Unless clearly stated otherwise, I would make pretty much all of these post-Sundering. The only thing which might make sense as evidence of proposed unknown pre-Sundering cultures is if you have clearly similar archictural designs seperated by wide oceans.
Remember that 10,000 years is already very old. That's more than old enough to be 'before recorded history' in most parts of the world. In fact, it is before most humans had developed writing.
On the other hand, archeology is complex. We have to assume that similar cultures will have risen again and again, sometimes in teh same places, sometimes elsewhere.
Any time a 'modern' Faerunian culture is supposed to be the heir to a tradition not numbered in centuries, but millenia, I tend to be sceptical. If the survivors of a catastrophe continue to be cohesive and prosperous enough to write down or otherwise retain recognisable cultural elements, they are probably also successful enough to build a new civilisation of note. Gaps of '5000 years here' and '9,000 years there' are, judging from real archeology and history, enough time for invasions, migrations and cultural evolution that not only makes the initial culture radically different, but can have spawned several culturally distinct groups.
Some physical changes are, in real world terms, very slow. Cultural changes happen on a scale of years, decades and centuries, not millenia.
Being from the same ethnic group and having a similar culture or language should not be regarded as a rule. Not, at any rate, over the aeons. It is much more useful when the time involved is only a couple of thousand years, at most.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Maps
This is sore spot for me... just use them as a very generic, inaccurate starting point. Trust me - they are REALLY bad the further back you go. The fact that the artists hired as cartographers know little to nothing about the setting is bad enough, but this is compounded by designers who don't seem to realize the world didn't look precisely the same for thousands of years. Imaskar, Crown Wars, even Netheril (which is fairly recent) - all inaccurate.
Fair enough. On the other hand, while the glacial extent and thus the sea levels have changed wildly, it is easy enough to assume that the few canon maps published in GHoTR simply happen to be from periods where it was similar to the modern day. It doesn't preclude sunken cities and glaciers both higher and lower at other times.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In fact, if you look at the FR L-List, you will see we are missing an entire chain of islands between Faerun and that western continent north of Maztica - Ed's original Anchormé.
What map is missing them? And where ought they be, precisely? I can see a lot of islands stretching from the Sea of Moving Ice to the west.
Do you mean those or do you mean something closer to the pole?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Raumvari Lore
I am using the term coined in the Dragon article because I like it better then my original - the Kalmyk. I turned the Kalmyk into 'beast men' (hobgoblins mostly), because of some stuff I read elsewhere (the Hordelads modules), and while not entirely canon, it works (and creates a different group in the Hordelands - we have way too many identical cultures there, and as a DM, I wanted to 'spice things up'). I have even written-up some lore about that culture somewhere - the Hobgoblin 'Drummers', and the Kingdom of Fan-Kiang.
I really like your hobgoblins and will definitely be using them. On the other hand, I think that some of the dates you are using are far, far too early for some of these cultures to have already emerged in any form.
Most of Faerun's cultures will have spread far more rapidly than the ethnic groups involved. Expect customs and languages to diverge (or converge) much faster than 'races'. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 14 Feb 2012 : 16:37:50
I have to keep two tabs open for this (response from other thread) -
Paranormal Sites
I had all of the locations of pyramids and other 'strange phenomena' written down at one point, but thats gone now. There are some of those, along with 'Stone Circles' all over Toril, not just in Faerun. The Stone Circles I blame on my theoretical 'Cortae' group (since those are my 'FR Celts'). There is also 'the Mountain of Iron', with powerful magnetic properties, in the far NE corner of the Taan. As we know, cold iron is anathema to fey, so I suspect that isn't a natural phenomena, and was created to drive the Maraloi out of the region (more on them later).
Maps
This is sore spot for me... just use them as a very generic, inaccurate starting point. Trust me - they are REALLY bad the further back you go. The fact that the artists hired as cartographers know little to nothing about the setting is bad enough, but this is compounded by designers who don't seem to realize the world didn't look precisely the same for thousands of years. Imaskar, Crown Wars, even Netheril (which is fairly recent) - all inaccurate.
Read through both Pages from the Mages and Prayers from the Faithful - there are DOZENS of lands and 'lost cities' mentioned, many of which existed on islands that no longer exist, or peninsula that have 'fallen beneath the waves'... some only a few hundred years ago! Ed had confirmed this. NONE of the 'ancient maps' represent any of that. Just consider them "modern maps drawn by modern scholars, to represent how they think the world looked at those points in history" (which is precisely what they are, from a meta-gaming point of view). In fact, if you look at the FR L-List, you will see we are missing an entire chain of islands between Faerun and that western continent north of Maztica - Ed's original Anchormé.
Look at the Fonstad map of the poles, and then compare it to the FRIA map of the world. Ed has said that the Fonstad is the 'most accurate' in regards to his Realms, but has also told me that there is 'open water' (treacherous, iceberg-filled) above the Faerunian continent, connecting Yal Tengri to the sea of Floating Ice (around Icewind Dale). This is reconcilable though; Ed has stated that the water above the landmass does indeed 'freeze over' from time-to-time, sometimes for centuries. Ergo, all we have to do is apply a little 'ice' to the FRIA map - This one is canon - and wallah! That's the real deal right there. Karen Fonstad was also unaware that Toril is bigger then Earth, so her depiction of the continent that close to the pole is inaccurate (but still beautiful and useful as a reference, none-the-less).
I look at my job as two-fold - to fix as much as possible, and fill in the gaps where needed (all the while keeping things interesting for a DM who needs 'hooks'). My job ISN'T to cater to 4 editions of bad cartography. Even the (much-beloved) 4e map of Cormyr is wack - the coastlines all line-up with the old coastlines, which they shouldn't! No-one informed Mr.Shley to make the necessary adjustments. How can you map a world you know nothing about? (not knocking his art - just the amount of direction he received).
Raumvari Lore
I am using the term coined in the Dragon article because I like it better then my original - the Kalmyk. I turned the Kalmyk into 'beast men' (hobgoblins mostly), because of some stuff I read elsewhere (the Hordelads modules), and while not entirely canon, it works (and creates a different group in the Hordelands - we have way too many identical cultures there, and as a DM, I wanted to 'spice things up'). I have even written-up some lore about that culture somewhere - the Hobgoblin 'Drummers', and the Kingdom of Fan-Kiang.
This part is almost entirely homebrew: The Kalmyk were a fairly primitive culture existing in the area around The Great Ice Sea. I think they had some early contact with the 'Human Creator race', which I pegged as the proto-Illuskan, or 'Illu-pozi' - my own term, based on some stuff Brian James wrote, concerning the other half of that group - the Asu-pozi (later Azuposi). The actual group the Kalmyk interacted with would have been the Pozi-people, who had a large, highly-advanced civilization in the far north (ruins of these ancient people still exist in canon, and they must also be the group of humans from the Realms of the Elves anthology).
After the Sundering (the real one, involving Tearfalls, and a 'war of the gods', not the later Elven Ritual), the pozi were all but wiped-out (reduced to an extremely primitive state). The Kalmyk, on the other hand - even though their own homeland may have been nuked by a meteor - managed to fill that void, and build their own civilization at the 'top of the world' (this took millenia, not just a few centuries). It think these early (human) Kalmyk also had some major interaction with the Fey, who were from 'the east' (spirit folk in K-T, or 'Kami'). This is where the later Raumvari peoples got some of their druid-like traditions (think Rashemi nature-lore).
Then Louhi launched an assault from Pohjola on Kalevala (the capitol of the Kalmyk Republic), with her armies of 'beast men' (gnolls, hobgoblins, & bugbears), and the human Kalmyk fled south, into the forest that used to cover the Northern Taan (around the southern end of Yal Tengri). The Kalmyk city-states were occupied by the evil creatures (except for Kalevala, which vanished), who then began referring to themselves as 'Kalmyk'. Those were the creatures we read about much later (thousands of years) in the Hordelands material, who were lead by Ma Yuan (better known as The Copper Demon of Tros in the Realms) at that time (This was that century or so when he 'went missing' - he was taking over and uniting all the 'beast folk' of the far north).
Ergo, rather then using the confusing 'Kalmyk' (which I have assigned to two different groups), I use the better catch-all term Ruamvari, to describe the entire ethnic group (which is similar to Earth Russo-Finnish culture). 'Raumvari' are the people and their culture, 'Raumathari' is the appelation assigned to people who were part of the Raumathar empire (so the folk of Amlorel are both Raumvari & Raumathari - ones an ethnicity, the other a national heritage).
Yes, I have tweaked some of the canon ethnic groups - they needed tweaking. People who write articles tend to do so with way too much focus, and neglect 'the big picture' oft-times. As I have stated, the lore for the surrounding lands does not jell well with the Hordelands own, internal history, nor that of Imaskar and its survivor states. My two goals were thus: to keep to canon as much as possible, except where canon contradicts itself (and try to fix those contradictions), and also to make the Hordlands as interesting as possible - my plan was to eventually release a Hordelands netbook, which I was working on, and it was about 90% complete at the time of the fire.
So yes, I do know a LOT about procrastination, and not getting around to finishing anything, which has cost me dearly.  |
| Markustay |
Posted - 14 Feb 2012 : 00:13:47
I must have been thinking of Nimbral, then - I know a branch of the Netherease survivors broke from Halruaa and settled there.
I think you misunderstood what I was going for above. The Scattering did not cause the colonization of Calimshan, the genies did. What I mean was that the humans were 'scattered' (and now I'm thinking the majority of them - those from central Zakhara - were removed to Abeir), and then there was nothing left but the Dgen (genies) and halflings. Those Dgen Nobles (I assume the four mentioned in the Al-Qadim products are the same four that retreated to Calimshan) then began their own kingdoms in the vacuum left by the scattering, which turned into empires, which turned on each other, until one by one the various Dgen lords fled to Calimshan, leaving only Memnon behind. Then a thousand years later (during which time he ruled Zakhara alone) he himself was 'chased' to Calimshan by something. There is where I think those interlopers came in.
The timline needs to be tweaked - its easier to fudge the non-specific dating of Zakhara then it is the rest of Toril. Also, I feel (after our little discussion) that something has made the modern Zakharans forget about a long stretch of their history, for whatever reason. They only think their history goes back 1000 years. This could be powerful genie magic at work, or even Ao (he has canonically done something similar in Faerun).
For instance, if he allowed Fate to move the ancient Zakharans to Abeir (she is a High God - something almost on-par with an Overgod, and has even been referred to as an Overgod in 2e), and the original Zakharans dwelt there for some 9000 years, and then they were brought-back to The Land of Fate (perhaps Memnon-ruled Zakhara was far worse then what the humans had?), don't you think Ao would want everyone to forget all about Abeir?
His ability to do this - manipulate people's memories of past events - appears to work subtly and slowly. The first few generations may have had some recollection of 'that other world', but in time, they would have completely forgotten that portion of their past (which fudges the time-frame of our errant female Caliph nicely).
One last thing - in The Nightmare Lands (Ravenloft), there is a similar canon group of horse nomads - they are called the Abber Nomads. 
I have theorized that these nomads were actually from Abeir (they are from a world that is in constant 'flux' - doesn't that sound like Abeir?) The name was slightly changed over time after that one group wound up in Ravenloft.
Now, take that piece of homebrew I created, and attach it to my new theory regarding the Zakharans - that they were trapped in Abeir for 9000 years - and its pure win, IMHO.
As for the Lantana, I suppose that a group of mixed imaskari/Shou wound up there (they look like my version of the Anoque, but speak a dialect of Roushum). I would just assume the Anoque gene is dominant, or the exodus happened sometime after (several generations) the Shou people were absorbed by Imaskar, and that the common tongue of the Imaskar was Roushum (that actually makes the most sense - they even made the Taangan tribes speak their language). |
| Icelander |
Posted - 13 Feb 2012 : 23:15:21
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
If the scattering of Fate happened just prior to the settling of Durpar (which it should have) around -8350 DR, it is pretty damn close to the -7800 arrival date of the djinn in Calimshan. That gives us 550 years in which the human were scattered from Zakhara, and Djinn ruled (which is great). Memnon's army is finally chased from Zakhara (by something) into Faerun in -6800 DR - this was probably when interloping humans arrived and started 'kicking some serious butt'.
I disagree strongly with this.
The Al-Quadim setting specifically states that the Scattering of Fate took place something like 'if not in memory of an elven grandfather, at least in the memory of an elven grandfather's grandfather'. This is certainly vague, but, in my opinion, it is more '500-2000 years' than 'thousands and thousands of years'.
Besides, the Bedine in Aunaroch arrived in -339 DR. The Zakhara reference was pretty clearly written to match that date, with some 1600 years being pretty reasonable for an elven grandfather's grandfather.
I have another reason for disagreeing strongly with stating that the Scattering of Fate happens in dim prehistory. Judging from the evidence, the people, customs and fauna spread by it are not that far from modern Zakhara.
This early, however, I don't see any reason to believe that the society on the peninsula had much, if anything, to do with modern Zakhara.
I think that the arrival of Calim ought to be, as GHotR does, treated as its own event. It wasn't an accidental scattering of hapless humans, it was a deliberate colonisation.
And it wasn't made by humans, it was made by the jinn, who colonised Zakhara from the Inner Planes.
The Zakharan civilisation in any recognisable form cannot be all that old. I would rather link the Calim-colonisation with the earlier legends of a war between the gods and genies, with the identity of the 'gods' to be determined.*
*I'm leaning toward a race of powerful beings that later became Toril's versions of asuras and devas.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
BTW, the Year of Sundered Webs is VERY important to my Hordlands history - I used it to explain how the Copper Demon of Troos escaped his imprisonment in Faanlag (all the protective magics went down). This was the start of his rampage through the Taan and into Chukei (K-T). Think about it - magic didn't just shut-down in Netheril, it shut down EVERYWHERE.
I agree that one ought to consider the ramifications of -339 DR and 1358 DR for all Toril and make sure no timeline escapes without it being kept in mind.
On the other hand, the Copper Demon of Tros/Troos ruled from -248 DR to -240 DR, so you'd have to account for his whereabouts in the intervening century.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
They are? 
I thought I made them up.
I refer, of course, to the fact that your physical description is spot on for Lantanna people. Red hair, very fair skin (described like 'bleached parchment') and large green eyes.
Of course, I can't find a source that tells me whether the Lantanna are tall or short. On the other hand, Storm Silverhand did not have to reduce her height any to impersonate a Lantanna telbront, which tells us that 6'2" women exist there. This certainly suggest that they are tall, as your proposed interlopers are.
In addition, the picture of Storm as a Lantanna (GHotR p. 126) has her eyes being very elf-shaped.
Yep, they are spot on in all ways.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I thought the Lantanna were Netherease? It would interesting to say the modern Lantanese were of mixed Netherease(Gur)/Anoque(Shou) stock. I assumed some such in Raumathar, but never considered isolated Lantan.
According to Tom Costa, Lantanna is an Imaskari language.
How does that fit for Lantan being settled by some of your interlopers who reject the dangerous magic that caused the fall of Imaskar? Just one last portal trip and then they're finished with magic!
But they're still artificers, of course. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 13 Feb 2012 : 21:15:30
Probably not very well. This convoluted 'Timeline of the Taan' is the direct result of dozens of different designers not bothering to try and mesh everything together very well - three major settings, two sub-settings (Hordelands & Living Jungle), and few random modules shoe-horned in (which later became the mega-module Desert of Desolation), and lots of splats (the destroyed city of Dharrmaghongh is mentioned in Dwarves Deep, for instance).
There is also relevant history in the 2e Book of Artifacts, 3e Dragon Magic (Wyrmbane Helm), 2e Complete Book of Necromancers, etc... its not even just FR - the lore is spread all over the place. There are even some relevant bits in the 4e Open Grave tome.
And gluing it altogether used to give me headaches (but FUN headaches). 
@Icelander - I know you were interested in the Turami; found a little bit about them in the Metos entry on pg.65 of LEoF. |
| Eladrinstar |
Posted - 13 Feb 2012 : 20:48:47
This is all really fascinating. I wonder how much these theories mesh with the designers' original ideas. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 13 Feb 2012 : 20:11:01
The end of the first kingdom - the arrival of the Shou ushered-in the Middle Kingdom period. At least that's where I think I put it at (I don't have that timeline anymore). Unless that conflicts with the Imaskari timeline in both the GHotR and LEoF. I haven't checked those in quite some time (not since I did all this research way back when). If I connect it to the defeat of the Taangan (as I have), then this had to have ocurred in -7100 DR, which is still during the first age of Imaskar.
If the scattering of Fate happened just prior to the settling of Durpar (which it should have) around -8350 DR, it is pretty damn close to the -7800 arrival date of the djinn in Calimshan. That gives us 550 years in which the human were scattered from Zakhara, and Djinn ruled (which is great). Memnon's army is finally chased from Zakhara (by something) into Faerun in -6800 DR - this was probably when interloping humans arrived and started 'kicking some serious butt'.
The only thing I can think of off the top of my head is another 'Weavefall', and some realms get swapped around with Abeir and elsewhere (apparently this happens every so often when Mystryl/Mystra/whatever dies). So Fate Scatters her people to the four winds (poetically speaking), and the genies are left to their own devices for 1550 years, and then BAM! Something else shows up (new humans) and Memnon flees northward. and Ergo, the 'interlopers' (mentioned by Erik Boyb) were from Toril all along - a very large group of them got 'scattered' to Abeir!
{see - that is why I say "keep Abeir", regardless of reboot - it really is convenient to have around.}
Or Fate may have finally "brought them home", their 'punishment' over.
BTW, the Year of Sundered Webs is VERY important to my Hordlands history - I used it to explain how the Copper Demon of Troos escaped his imprisonment in Faanlag (all the protective magics went down). This was the start of his rampage through the Taan and into Chukei (K-T). Think about it - magic didn't just shut-down in Netheril, it shut down EVERYWHERE.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
You do, of course, realize that these are Lantanna?
They are?
I thought I made them up.
Is that from RoF? I tend to avoid that source... mostly because it doesn't conform to my over-model very well.
I thought the Lantanna were Netherease? It would interesting to say the modern Lantanese were of mixed Netherease(Gur)/Anoque(Shou) stock. I assumed some such in Raumathar, but never considered isolated Lantan.
Perhaps a group of them - not wanting to join with Imaskar - were lead away? |
| Icelander |
Posted - 13 Feb 2012 : 19:07:50
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Pg2, of Powers & Pantheons:quote:
Much later goblinkin (orcs, hobgoblins, and their lesser kin kobolds and goblins) entered Faerūn, as did human people from other spheres, moving to settle in what we know as Kara-Tur, Maztica, and Zakhara.
Ignoring Maztica and Zakhara for the moment...
Awesome, thanks!
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
When a bunch of us were working on the Kara-Tur netbook project over at WotC (which stopped abruptly after the 4e announcement), a bunch of us - including Brian R. James - concluded that were two groups of kara-Turrans; the aboriginal oriental-like people, and the 'interlopers'.
Actually, Kara-Tur as a whole has more than two groups. The aboriginal people of Malatra (before the Nubari arrived) are not 'oriental' and are probably seperated from a common stock more than 50,000 years ago (perhaps more).
I'd think that down in what you call Jambu Dweepam, there are people from that stock as well. So are the Bawani of Bawa, of course.
Most likely they got to Bawa shortly before the Dawn Ages, i.e. after the second sun started to warm Toril, but before so much of the glaciers had melted that the archipelago extending south-west from the Akashnu Mountains to an unknown extent beyound Bawa had sunk below the waves, leaving only the tips of its mountains as islands in the Eastern Sea.*
At some point they were ruled by one of the progenitor races, but whether that was Sarrukh, Batrachi or later serpent people, no one knows. The ruins are still there on Bawa, though, in case any adventurers are curious.
Where did they originally come from? My money is on Katashaka, the eastern part. Humanity didn't arise in -34,000 DR, that was just the first time they built societies anywhere near someone to bear witness. Remember, it is specifically noted that during the Dawn Ages, there are small groups of humans huddled in caves from the start.
The -34,000 Katashaka exodus was the one most modern Faerunian humans are descended from, it is true.
But before it, during the Blue Age, at the Time of the First Sun, eons and eons ago, there was another exodus, along the lines of highlands and mountains that were not below the waves. Inch by careful inch, these proto-humans walked (or island hopped, perhaps, at times) from the modern-day Chultan peninsula, over mountains of Tashalar and somehow got to the Lhairgal Mountains of Halruua. From thence they must have found some parts of the modern Shaar above the water** and eventually reached the high lands of the Giant's Belt Mountains.***
From there, the Dustwall Mountains provide a path to the Katakoro, the A-Lin-Shan and finally the Yehimals. I imagine that a population (or more than one) of them was protected somewhere in the southern Yehimals or the surrounding mountains, in enchanted valleys watched over by unimaginably ancient powers.****
Finally, once the sun appeared in the sky once more, they would have resumed their journey. At first, it was still cold and icy pretty much everywhere*****, but that's why they went south and ended up at the tip of the Malatran subcontinent. The continuing thawing and the sinking of much of their homeland must have seemed particularly unfair, considering what they had already been through, but them's the breaks.
The eons of ice erased most or all evidence of what cultures they could have built and, of course, killed all those not protected by some divine power.
While less dramatic, is is most problable that the people of the islands to the south of Malatra diverged from the proto-Taangan/Shou at least as early as the Illuskans and other 'white-skinned' folk did. In fact, I'd put the people who became the Tashalar, Durpari and Lapal tribes as a seperate descent from this proto-race, which was by then already olive skinned.
How to account for some of Maztica and perhaps Anchorhome and eastern Kara-Tur having similar looking people is intriguing. I'm leaning toward having the original race that became Mazticans, the majority of Kara-Turans (apart from your interlopers and the small hold-out above) and all the 'Caucasoid' races of the Realms having been led West by their dragon overlord, before the Sundering.
I'll see where that takes me.
*Any speculation that the land bridge may have extended as far as distant Osse (which may, of course, have been much closer in these pre-Sundering days) is just that, pure speculation.
**Plausible, the Eastern Shaar is a landrise, while there are several hills and mountains in the west close to each other.
***They might have reached the Dragonswords too, but whether or not they got further north from there, there was no protection sufficient to survive being actually covered by miles and miles of glacier for eons. So only those located near the equator at the time of Dendar's feast (and worshipping powers prepared to provide some substitute for the sun) had a chance of survival.
****Proposing another survival further north which eventually spread over the ice once the sun came back and establishing these as the ancestors of the korobokuru would be crazy, so I won't do it. At least, not definitely.
*****I imagine that thawing a ball of ice took some thousands of years.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Hence, my fix, which was generally excepted by most folk, and extends the musings of the designers (and fans) mentioned above:
The people known as the Anoque came from another sphere - they were tall (males averaging 6'6" and females 6'), had very pale skin, red hair (ranging from 'strawberry blonde' to deep auburn), and had large, slightly slanted eyes similar to Elves (but not like the aborignal K-T peoples, who had an epicanthic fold much like our RW Orientals).
You do, of course, realise that these are Lantanna?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
They were granted all those lands in the NE of the Empire formerly belonging to the Tangaan, and together the united Shou and Imaskari first finished their domination of the Taangan tribes, and then other ethnic groups in the region (like the ancient Raumvari who hailed from around Yal Tengri).
Would this have been during the Middle Kingdom period of Imaskar? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 13 Feb 2012 : 17:42:52
Pg2, of Powers & Pantheons:quote:
Much later goblinkin (orcs, hobgoblins, and their lesser kin kobolds and goblins) entered Faerūn, as did human people from other spheres, moving to settle in what we know as Kara-Tur, Maztica, and Zakhara.
Ignoring Maztica and Zakhara for the moment...
When a bunch of us were working on the Kara-Tur netbook project over at WotC (which stopped abruptly after the 4e announcement), a bunch of us - including Brian R. James - concluded that were two groups of kara-Turrans; the aboriginal oriental-like people, and the 'interlopers'. If memory serves me, we also got some input from George Krashos (designer) and Gray Richardson (accredited consultant) on this point (Gray came up with the Anok-Imaskar material, if I am not mistaken). Most of us didn't really care for the fact that Erik Boyd made so many Torillian groups interlopers, so we set-out to fix that.
At that time Brian James was referring to the two branches as the 'Shou' and the 'Lung' peoples, which worked for awhile until I ran into some complications with that. The name 'Shou Lung' actually translates to "Followers of the Dragon" in Kao te' Shou, which means the Shou would have literally been called 'followers', and the indigenous people 'dragons', which makes little sense.
Hence, my fix, which was generally excepted by most folk, and extends the musings of the designers (and fans) mentioned above:
The people known as the Anoque came from another sphere - they were tall (males averaging 6'6" and females 6'), had very pale skin, red hair (ranging from 'strawberry blonde' to deep auburn), and had large, slightly slanted eyes similar to Elves (but not like the aborignal K-T peoples, who had an epicanthic fold much like our RW Orientals). Their world had under gone some major cataclysm, and their gods were forced to intervene. The folk were divided into several groups and lead by avatars of their deities (in the form of celestial dragons, or 'Lung') to other worlds.
One such group arrived via gate into the region of The Cave of a Thousand Gods, right in the midst of a battle between Imaskari Mages and a horde of Horse Barbarians (the Taangan). Men Lung Chen-Shan-Tien-Kung-Te (the first historian) lead a charge of Anoque Wūdein (later Wu-jen, or 'wizards') against the barbarians, aiding the encircled Imaskari, saving the day for the hard-pressed Sorcerers. A deep friendship was formed between the two peoples from that moment on, and the Imaskari history records them as the "Followers of the Dragon", or simply 'Shou' for short. They were granted all those lands in the NE of the Empire formerly belonging to the Tangaan, and together the united Shou and Imaskari first finished their domination of the Taangan tribes, and then other ethnic groups in the region (like the ancient Raumvari who hailed from around Yal Tengri).
It was during this early period of expansion that nearly all of the avatars (celestial dragons) that came with them from their world left them and settled to the east (and south), where they became part of the animistic faiths of the primitive peoples dwelling there. Some even merged with local deities (and exarchs, archfey, etc). Men Lung Chen-Shan-Tien-Kung-Te, however, took human form (some say that of Chih Shih) and acted as chief-advisor to the new Anoque Emperor, from his Gōng yķnyuįn ding (Silver-Domed Palace).
The Imaskari were masters of the elemental arts - something held-over from their Mujhein (Zakharan) heritage. The Shou were brilliant artificers, and had reached heights in the Golemic sciences (autonimatons, golems, and the like) unheard of. The Imaskari also had a gift of magical knowledge from the Fey (Darkvision), which allowed them to easily pierce the 'veil between the worlds' (it is theorized that this magic weakens this barrier over time, which is why that entry point was chosen by the Anoque/Shou). With their combined knowledge and power they extended the reach of their empire from the eastern end of the Shaar and the Sunrise Mts. to the their western outposts deep in Kara-Tur, and from The Great Ice Sea all the way into the Utter East (Ulgara was an enclave/colony of theirs).
After the fall of the first Imaskari Empire, the lands were split amongst the Anoque (Shou) and the Mujhein (Imaskari), and the shou lands became know as the 'Upper Kingdom'. At this time, the capitol of the Upper Kingdom was located in Khati, and extended both south and east. It was during this time period that the Shou began to take-over small, fairly primitive human kingdoms around them, including the Kingdom of Guge (they were able to use their powers to drive the ruling spirit-folk there insane). The Maviddi (native Drow living in vast anthill-like mounds) retreated into the jungles, but the human population was subdued. When first encountered, these native peoples were asked by the Imaskari "Who rules here?", to which they answered "Lung", or 'the spirit dragons'. So, the native human population of Kara-Tur were referred to as 'Lung' by the Imaskari, because of a mistranslation. They called themselves 'Haltai', which simply means "people' (or humans) in their tongue (Han).
So this is why westerns know these two groups as 'Shou' and 'Lung' (not because of the name of the later empire), even though they referred to themselves as 'Anoque' and 'Haltai' (respectively). Further confusion was added by the Mulan peoples, who later called the Second Kingdom 'Anok' in their tongue, which carries over today in modern history tomes. Ergo, Anok-Imaskar was really 'Empire of the Anoque'.
The final 'Kingdom period' of Imaskar also overlaps with Kara-Turran history, and is referred to as the 'First Empire of Shou-Lung'. Therefor, what Faerūnians consider the 'end of an era' (the fall of Imaskar), the K-T folk consider 'the new beginning'. The Shou and Lung (Anok and Haltai) peoples have intermixed heavily, with each other and also the southern Ang, so very few cases of 'pure bloods' can be found anymore (the Imperial line is considered one-such... but not really). The larger size and red hair of the interlopers can still be discerned amongst many of the northern provinces, however, including Chukei. Many Mandarins also consider themselves 'pure blood' Shou - it is a matter of 'bragging rights'. The people in Koryo and the Islands have had very little inter-mixing, and remain almost exclusively Lung (Haltai).
I did a whole breakdown of the ethnicities of Kara-Tur (by province) a long time ago - don't know if that survived anywhere. Note also that Tan Chin has had at least three names in canon - his history is both long and interesting. I even have him as the current emperor of Shou-Lung in 4e (he pulled-off a 'savior' maneuver after the spellplague). Rumors of his demise are greatly exaggerated.  |
| Icelander |
Posted - 13 Feb 2012 : 15:47:19
Ok, I'm still trying to assimilate all the relevant lore so that I can have an opinion of the above.
One question, Markustay, where does the notion that the Shou are interlopers from another crystal sphere come from? Is there any canon support for that idea, either from any of the 2e or earlier sources or some mention that made it into GHotR?
Frankly, I don't quite see the need for interlopers. Not in an ethnic sense, at any rate. The strange look of the Shou is more than adequately explained by Earth-like genetics, especially if we keep in mind that the Maraloi (fey-ish) probably interbred with some of the human populations.
As for the culture, I would rather link that to the (clearly interloping from somewhere) race of dragons. You don't need an ethnic connection to spread culture. Ideas bread without an actual blood admixture taking place. An excellent way for ideas to spread is for some parts of the area having been ruled by Lung dragons before the rise of Imaskar and Anok-Imaskar. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 12 Feb 2012 : 01:03:09
@Icelander - have you read my article in the Candlekeep Compendium? I tried to do several things with it, including a little 'Easter Egg' of lore on how the Utter East was settled by Ffolk and Northmen. I used the canon lore Umberlee's Fist to explain-away some of the problematic continuity (including the conundrum of the inconsistent cultural tropes).
Even when we don't see the logic in canon, we should still use and work-around it.
Anyhow, the Utter East, we (non-official) scribes decided had a history of warfare and invasions/migrations (this is actually apocryphal canon, from the Blood & Magic video game), starting all the way back in the Days of Thunder. Ancient (primordial) magic is buried deep in the region, and massive wars have been fought over it.
Anyhow, the original peoples in the area were not human (several groups - hold-overs from thew time of the Creators), and the very first were the Zakharan (Muhjein) tribes that were displaced by Fate.
Tempat Larang & the Mar:
The Mar of the Utter East are actually a branch of the Ang racial group (the Indiansque peoples of southern Kara-Tur). Originally just one of many small 'jungle kingdoms' in that part of Faerun, the expanding Anok-Imaskari conquered the mostly peaceful Larangans (more like 'just declared themselves rulers'), and installed an Imperial governor. As the Shou of Anok became more and more decadent, and their abuses became more profound, a small group of Larangans calling themselves the 'Mar' (meaning 'disgruntled' in Lidahan) left Tempat larang and headed into the Mountains. Lead by a holy man (mystic), they discovered a beautiful valley hidden from the rest of the world, and began life anew. This settlement became know as Langdarma (Faces of Deception), and was considered 'blessed by the gods' (the Lords of Creation in the K-T religions, but better known to us as the Vedic Pantheon).
Sometime later, a terrible civil war broke out in the remnants of the Imaskari Empire, and losing ground to 'demonic hordes', Tan Chin relocates his capitol from Khati to Chu'ta Te (Chukei Plateu), and renames the new Kingdom 'Shou-Lung' (followers of the Dragon). The governor of the northern Anok province sinks into madness, calls himself the T'Shar (shadowlord), and renames the kingdom T'sharoon (land of the Shadow Lord). Chaos reigns in the Taan, and the myriad Imaskari survivor states all sink into various states of depravity.
Tempat Larang, under the governorship of Sangkal Chumbi, became semi-autonomous for a time, and eventually built into an empire of its own, controlling much of the Segara Sea (The Shao Mountains Empire). After Tan Chin (Joon Tsao Choo) was defeated in Kuo Meilan (faking his own death), he fled south to his old stronghold in Tempat Larang, where he took control of the current Emperor of Tempat Larang (Tan Chin is a Suel Lich), and began his plans of Kara-Turran conquest anew. Unfortunately for him, he no longer possessed his original body, and therefor did not have the right blood to activate the secret golem army beneath Tempat Larang. In trying to find someone with the right blood - some unknown descendent of his - he sacrificed hundreds of innocent citizens, to no avail. He also began construction of the Larang Highway, which angered Nung Chiang, using the Ang peasants of the surrounding regions like slaves (The folk of Tempat Larang itself were of mostly Anokian stock). The Immortal ordered the highway project stopped, and Tan Chin refused, and so the exarch caused the volcano Mt. Tengkorak to erupt, burying the city beneath lava and ash. The Ang peasants who were pressed into service begged the gods mercy, and so they were shown the secret path through the mountains to Langdarma.
Langdarma - sweet, tranquil Landarma, literally the 'valley of the gods' - could not support the large amount of refugees, and so, after rest and re-supplying, they were directed by hidden paths further west, through the towering Yehimals, into the land known as the Utter East. Recently having had their populations reduced by bitter tribal warfare, the Zakharan descendents allowed the peaceful Mar to settle along the foothills of the mountains, leaving the coastal lands to the Horse Nomads and Muhjein fisherman. And so the two inter-mixed, and the Mar culture (and gods) took root amongst the Muhjein peoples, and after just a few centuries they became one.
This was the land the Arkaiuns of the Shaar raided into on their rampage through Veldorn and Durpar, and then into Ulgara (later to be called Ulgarth), where they ran afoul of descendents of Imaskari mages that had settled there in ancient times, and driven back north to their own ancestral home. It was also the land torn apart by wars - some started by those same Imaskari descendents - where golemic armies were thrown against each other, and most of the Utter East Muhjein met their ends, as the Mar cowered in their mountain villages. This was the land discovered by those Ffolk and Northemen, thrown far off course into strange seas by a twist of Fate, who in their turn began their own wars of control for those lands. This strife - often called the Bloodforge Wars - spilled into the surrounding lands, including the northern portion of Zakhara, where the many rulers found it necessary to unite to drive back the evil forces from the Land of Fate.
This is the Utter East. A land steeped in blood, a land forged in blood. It is the land of Blood & Magic.
Don't know if that helps anyone - I just pieced it back together mostly from memory - it may have a few continuity problems, which is why I left out any dates. All names and places are canon - the lore is based heavily on canon, with some filler to link everything together. |
| Quale |
Posted - 11 Feb 2012 : 11:50:01
quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar
I've also always wondered where the Lantanna come from?
According to the article about languages they are related to the Imaskari. It's possible that during their alliance with the le shay (Moonshaes) the Imaskari established a colony on Lantan.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
In my Realms the Imaskari were similar to the proto-Indoeuropeans, just one southern group then invaded Durpar. And people of the Shaar were another branch, kinda like the Scythians.
I like what I'm reading here, Quale. Can you elaborate on this?
There isn't much, it's just history that I imagined to be in the background, it included a lot of breaking of canon. In that world the Realms were a real parallel Earth, every human culture except the Netherese had a real world analogue, historical events on Earth had fantastic versions on this world. So the fall of Imaskar was the Black Sea deluge, which in some theories is behind the expansion of the Indoeuropean/Kurgan culture. So the Plains of the Purple Dust is all dust of dryness. A post-Imaskar realm, Raumanthar (like Hettites, cause of their skill with metals) warred with Mulhorandi god-kings, not the first Imaskari. Another post-realm conquered Durpar (Dravidians), would be similar to the process described in the Vedas (including the high technology). But I have no details cause I never ran a game in the Utter East. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 11 Feb 2012 : 08:52:36
I was thinking about the language chart in the Hordelands and Tom Costa's article Speaking in Tongues, as well as the challenge of making it all play nice with the 'Indian-esque' elements of the Utter East an upwards.
I've come to the conclusion that Costa's work needs a little reordering.
First of all, Imaskar was founded almost ten millenia before the present era. That's longer than recorded history on Earth. The languages spoken at that time did not necessarily correspond much with those spoken on modern Toril.
In fact, on our world, we don't know much about languages spoken that far back. Serious linguists get away with postulating such ideas as proto-Indo-European, proto-Altaic and proto-Uralic all being related that far back.
As such, stating that at the time of Imaskar's founding, the Durpari tribes spoke a whole range of languages (most lost without a trace), including proto-Imaskari, is just sensible.
However, reviewing the origin of the Imaskari, it does not seem to me plausible that they came down from the Ama basin after the Sundering because they were unwilling to fight the more warlike tribes around them. Not, at any rate, without a lot of qualifications and such. The early Imaskari seem to have been warlike before they were magical.
Rather, the aborigines of the Ama basin spoke languages that have been lost today. They were the genetic predecessors of the Taangan, Ra-Khati, Bhutan and even the Tabotans, being driven west and south by the displacing Shou. Little or no trace of their languages survive.
On the other hand, it is possible that at the end of the ice age before the Dawn Ages, populations of them were caught over on the landmass that became Anchorhome, Maztica, etc., so some of the languages there might be descendants from those early aborigine languages. Or that landmass might have been empty of humans altogether until settled by humans from another Crystal Sphere. Both are possible.
Well, let's first trace genetics, then culture. Genetics changes much more slowly.
Excepting outer planar arrivals, I think that those Torilian people who look 'European-esque'* settled Faerun from the western side of the Katakoro Shan (and the fertile lands west of there), travelling north and west through the recently fallen Batrachi kingdoms after the Tearfall. They went west because the fall of the Batrachi left open fertile lands and they went north because of the gradual warming (or sudden, I don't know) at the end of the Ice Age in -37,000 DR.
Before the founding of Ostoria, they had settled around the Bay of Raum (the north-east population) and skirting the edges of the Jotunbrud territory, around the Moonsea (the central population). The founding of Ostoria drives a lot of them further west, where many of them become dragonic slaves and vassals (the north-west population). It is likely, but not certain, that at this time, the southern shores of the Inner Sea saw their native Turami and unnamed refugee tribes from the serpent-folk being joined by escaped slaves from the giants in the Vilhon Reach.**
This would depend rather heavily on what the giant's attitude toward humans was. If we assume that they had no use for them (thus killing them when they competed for living space), then Cormanthyr, Cormyr and the Dales would have been completely human free at this time, populated only by giants and dragons.
Before the coming of the elves, the north-west population would have been able to spread downward the Sword Coast pretty freely. Obviously, dragons ruled the roost, so the humans were either barbarians trying to avoid their notice or slaves under them, but from this population eventually came the Netherese, the Talfirs, the Ffolk and the Illuskans (assuming that this population is not purely extra-planar). Also, the human tribes of the Keltormir were of this stock.
Let's move on to the south a bit.
The Lapal and Tashalars were originally Katashakan tribes (as, indeed, all native Torilians were during the Blue Age before the Shadow Epoch), but must have diverged from their common ancestors long, long before the end of the Ice Age***. Most probably they were coastal people of northern Katahaka and what became Chult. At the time of the rise of the Sarrukh Mhairsaulk civilisation, they were already much lighter skinned than their more southerly cousins.
Why the Turami remained very dark skinned and the Lapal and Tashalans did not is somewhat of a mystery. Possibly the solution lies in deliberate breeding campaign by the Sarrukh. For some reason, olive skin and straight hair on their slaves pleased them, whereas ebony skin and curled hair did not.
The proto-Turami, in any event, probably represented the last wave of Katashakan migration before the severing of Katashaka from Chult.**** The great dragon kingdoms of the south most have discouraged many of them from striking out into the Shining South and I imagine that they found the Lake of Steam already settled by proto-Tashlutans who had fled the serpent people (and maybe found beholders no kinder masters). The Shaar was wide open, but I imagine that their culture did not relish a nomadic herding or hunting existence. The proto-Turami were, in my view, coastal hunter-gatherers, disdaining dry savannahs.
No doubt a fair bit of them settled around the Lake of Steam, but for one reason or another, the Sundering and time wiped out most of the remnants. And elves, probably, given that they settled there too. Probably massacred a lot of beholder-ruled humans, I don't doubt. Well, maybe a few dragon-ruled ones too.
Those proto-Turami that lived therefore gravitated ever further east and north, avoiding the elves. By the time of the Crown Wars, I imagine that they had settled all the southern shore of the Inner Sea.
I note that I didn't actually address what I meant to address. Well, there's always another post.
*Where did they originally come from? Well, a long time before the last Ice Age, Katashakan humans had already travelled west over what would become Mhairsaulk and settled those aresa of Merrobouros that were above water. As soon as the waters receded at the start of the Ice Age, the humans that had followed the highlands and mountains (then, of course, islands) for a laborous course to the Katakoro and further south had an opportunity to spread out to the new lands. During the Ice Age, they would have settled the whole tropics of Merrebouros. The Sempadan has probably known human habitation for more than 100,000 years and so might the jungles of Malatra. The furthest-travelling wave of these migrants now inhabits the southernmost tip of Malatra (and possibly made it across to Osse a long time ago). While the origins of Zakharan humans is disputed, the most mundane and plausible explanation is simply that at some point before the Tearfall, a population of them went there and after the Sundering and Tearfall, were mostly isolated. In any event, the dark-skinned Katashakans who made their home on the western part of the Katakoro Shan gradually became lighter skinned, even before the Ice Age, and during it they changed out of all recognition. These Katakoro men would become the ancestors of all the Western men, as well as the Devics of Ulgarth and the Utter East (though these diverged from each other 30,000 years ago).
**These would then have become the Jaamdath a long, long time after that. As in, some twenty thousand years later. On the other hand, the tribes that founded Jhaamdath might equally likely have been of Turami stock or from one of the olive-skinned tribes around the Lake of Steam that share original stock with the Tashalans. Is there a canon appearance for Jhaamdathans in the early days?
***As evidenced by their extremely different appearance from Tabaxi, Eshodow and even the Turami, who are far closer to the Tabaxi than they are.
****Did that happen at the Tearfall or the Sundering? Both are plausible. If any scholar knows, I would really appreciate it. In any event, if it was the Tearfall, the proto-Turami were able to pass Mhairsaulk due to the passing of the Sarrukh, but if it was the Sundering (much prefered), they fled the war between Mhairsaulk and the coatl. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 11 Feb 2012 : 04:38:30
quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar
Yes. And I like this idea of the Utter East and the Golden Water area being so diverse within itself. It's not just a uniform Indianesque culture (something that doesn't even exist in the real world).
Very much true.
I've been trying to make sure that nothing I postulate is a fantasy counterpart of 'India', as that's a latter day political creation.
The Mar, in my mind, were originally fantastic analogues for the Marwari (the plains and rivers of Edenvale and Doegan) and Maratha (Koeningheim, Barbarian Marches), with these taking on elements from central India (Madhya Pradesh) and next to the Yehimals the southern part of the Uttar Pradesh. The Parsanic area could be compared to the Gujarat, but these consummate traders were already well mixed with the Durpari tribes by the of the Ffolk invasion and after it there was an even larger diaspora of them to the coastal, urban areas of the Shining Lands.
The Ulgarthians, in turn, for the Rajput/Rajastani, with the more inland areas resembling the former Kuru Kingdom around Dehli in the north and the northern part of Uttar Pradesh in the south. The Galuil Mountains and the hills around it resemble the Himachal Pradesh.
The Shining Lands for Punjab and Sindh, with the coastal areas having received an extensive wave of Gujarat and Marwari immigrants after the Ffolk invasion. It is also useful to imagine the Shining Lands are being analogues to societies of Indian traders who sprang up all through the Middle East and all the way to Zanzibar. In fact, with the Shaar above, the Durpari are not at all unlike Indian traders in Africa, in many ways.
As for the rest of Toril's echo of Pakistan, not to mention Afghanistan, these were located plumb in the middle of where the Imaskari disaster placed deserts and devastation. The remains of such people live to the north of former Thommar, along the western edge of the Katakoro Shan, but their range is much smaller than on Earth, because much of what would would be their lands is desert where Zakharan interlopers have set up their culture.
Thommar is not unlike Jammu and Kashmir. For the 'Indian-esque' flavour to Solon, see the historical ancient 'Indian-esque' Kingdoms in Central Asia.
All of these, however, have been affected by magic, different religion, different climate, different neighbours and different history so that they are today very much their own cultures, not simply transported real worl ones. The real world analogues are just handy sources for how the people look and feel, mutatis mutandis for influences which are not present in real life, such as the multinational trading for the Durpari coast.
I don't know whether there is canon support for the idea, but it would make a lot of sense for the Sempadan to be/have been Bengali. The Tearfall or Sundering might have destroyed most of that region, leaving only a fairly small population and no longer connected to the Malatran mainland.
The South Indian areas, Tamil, Kerala, etc., complete with Dravidian peoples, would then be found down in the south of Malatra. |
| Eladrinstar |
Posted - 11 Feb 2012 : 01:22:49
Races of Faerun lists Illuskans as the majority of Dambrath, and as we all know that place is primarily inhabited by partially-Illuskan Arkaiuns, so any other Illuskans in the Shining South are probably meant to be Arkaiuns as well. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 11 Feb 2012 : 01:12:28
quote:
Icelander
Purely out of interest, can anyone explain to me why 18% of the population of Estagund and 3% of the population of Var the Golden is composed of Illuskans?
Is this perhaps meant to read Arkuins, a population of transplanted Nar with some slight admixture of Illuskan blood, both courtesy of a Gate in the Council Hills?
I don't have an answer for that - except to point out that when clearly differentiated ethnicities exist within a population it's usually because one or more of them was "recently" introduced. Given sufficient time (measured in generations), the cultural barriers which isolate the ethnicities begin to dissolve and the entire population assumes an homogenous identity which is a new ethnicity in itself. In RL such rapid ethnic injections are typically the result of war, changing political/religious boundaries, or natural distasters. In the Realms it might also be an artifact of magical designs, plus of course the Realms are interconnected with countless other D&D worlds. |
| Eladrinstar |
Posted - 11 Feb 2012 : 00:20:29
Well one thing I noticed is that the Lantanna are red haired and copper skinned. Another red haired group in the Realms is the Shou interlopers (pierced together by Markustay from hints in the descriptions of the provinces of Kara-Tur). The Shou came to Toril with the Lung Dragons. Lantanese uses the Draconic alphabet. Maybe I'm grasping at straws, but I would homebrew that the Lantannese (and maybe even the Gnomes) came from the same Oriental-themed world (especially considering their knack for invention, possibly reflecting coming from a world with a higher tech level).
Maybe they've mixed with proto-Tethyrians and proto-Ffolk (remember that the Ffolk are themselves the result of immigration from Tethyr mixing with unknown Moonshae natives), which is why they don't look so Asian anymore? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 11 Feb 2012 : 00:02:50
quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar
I've also always wondered where the Lantanna come from?
I've actually got a pending theory on this myself. Let me dig around through my archives, first... |
| Eladrinstar |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 23:39:46
Well at least I didn't ask where half-orcs come from... |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 20:25:12
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar
I've also always wondered where the Lantanna come from?
Well, when two Lantanna love each other very much...
Darn, someone beat me to it... |
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