| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| jordanz |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 17:55:08
He dies like 3 times but he keeps getting resurrected. Maybe he should change his title to "Demon Lord of Resurrection". Why does this guy have such a devoted following especially when he is described as not giving to Sh!-tz about them?
Honestly though I like him alive because he is my favorite demon prince I just don't quite get the logic of it. |
| 29 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Varl |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 23:21:21
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, I meant one in each Crystal Sphere he is active in. The nature of artifacts (canonically) is that no-one is quite sure if only one of each exists, only that only one of each may exist at any time in any single sphere. If a deity (or archfiend, etc) can have different manifestations on different worlds, then it stands to reason that each Avatar of said being would carry a copy of the artifact. I really doubt they all just 'pass it around' (Thor's Hammer, etc).
True, if said manifestations mattered to each sphere, which sounds more like a metaphor to me for everyone's individual FR world. Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't really care what happens on Markustay's Toril probably as much as you don't care what happens on mine, so any correlations between the two regarding the finality and the possible destruction of Orcus should remain distinct with each of our worlds and conclusive within each of our own unique crystal spheres. When one starts passing through cosmic spheres to determine whether a monumental event like the permanent destruction of Orcus has occurred, I think it should only matter to the world in which it takes place.
quote:
And I just realized something - the Tarrasque is an artifact! 
Heh. Technically, a living one, yes. |
| Eldacar |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 04:06:12
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And if both Bane and Myrkul thought of this, then I am sure a piece of their buddy Bhaal is still stashed-away somewhere. Mask probably has it (he may have absorbed it when he was in sword-form {Godsbane} and killed him).
Wouldn't Bhaal's leftover energies have been resolved with the Bhaalspawn mess? As I recall (even though I much prefer the events of the games to the books...), Abdel Adrian surrendered the Bhaal essence to become a mortal and continue wandering, while the essence itself was taken by the gods and stashed away somewhere deep in the halls of Mount Celestia where it could never again be found or used.
So his essence is probably still around. You'd just have to dig it up and set it loose first. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 19:11:04
quote:
Originally posted by Varl
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So some beings of power might store parts of their essence in multiple items, and that could be another reason why it is nearly impossible to stamp them out for good. Orcus' wand is the obvious one, but who knows how many items he has? (and he may have several wands!)
Personally, I wouldn't take this tack. Like artifacts, there can and only should be one (or should imo). I'd call this an Overrule of Ao or similar cosmic law that no being can circumvent, not even the one that made it, Ao. So, as much as Orcus would love to have thousands of Wands scattered across space and time as some sort of life essence data backup, he's out of luck. That's how I run things like this, otherwise as you said, he's effectively immortal beyond immortality, and that's simply not going to be allowed by Ao imo. YMMV.
Well, I meant one in each Crystal Sphere he is active in. The nature of artifacts (canonically) is that no-one is quite sure if only one of each exists, only that only one of each may exist at any time in any single sphere. If a deity (or archfiend, etc) can have different manifestations on different worlds, then it stands to reason that each Avatar of said being would carry a copy of the artifact. I really doubt they all just 'pass it around' (Thor's Hammer, etc).
And I just realized something - the Tarrasque is an artifact!
Anyhow, I think the simplest answer is always best - you really can't ever kill anything for good - a 'vestige' (Eldacar's 'Shadows') is always left behind. So long as someone figures out a way to empower the vestige (multiple methods exist, including simply worship), thery can 'reboot' the being.
Two caveats:
#1 - it is best to trap a vestige when destroying a being, which will at least insure the being won't be able to come back (this is precisely what I think happened to Mystra). Still not permanent, but it is usually the best option.
#2 - get an 'Elder Evil' (something that pre-existed the current universe) to consume the vestige. This is what I think Dender (and the River Styx) does. Deities and other uber-beings (like Arch-anythings) cannot be directly consumed, but their vestiges can (which means first defeating them, and then taking that final scrap of them - equivalent to a mortal 'soul' power-wise - and feeding it to the Elder Evil). This is why most powerful beings hide a tiny bit of themselves somewhere, in case of this situation; if their enemy is able to get 'every last scrap of them', they may be destroyed permanently. Only a newly-ascended being would make such a mistake.
And if both Bane and Myrkul thought of this, then I am sure a piece of their buddy Bhaal is still stashed-away somewhere. Mask probably has it (he may have absorbed it when he was in sword-form {Godsbane} and killed him). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 15:46:30
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Could it not also be possible that each new "Orcus" is just another new body that "Orcus" inhabits. Perhaps he has to disappear for a time to prepare a new body to act as his host and the problem is people keep killing the body and not the "mind behind it".
And to take this one step further, could it be that Tenebrous is that "mind behind it" and he's simply controlling the physical form from the far realm where all the vestiges reside.
Ah, and to take it one step further, perhaps the new body is formed by using cultists to convert the body of a dead god on the astral (it may not even be the body of the formerly dead Orcus as some suspect). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 15:44:15
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Could it not also be possible that each new "Orcus" is just another new body that "Orcus" inhabits. Perhaps he has to disappear for a time to prepare a new body to act as his host and the problem is people keep killing the body and not the "mind behind it".
And to take this one step further, could it be that Tenebrous is that "mind behind it" and he's simply controlling the physical form from the far realm where all the vestiges reside. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 15:42:13
Could it not also be possible that each new "Orcus" is just another new body that "Orcus" inhabits. Perhaps he has to disappear for a time to prepare a new body to act as his host and the problem is people keep killing the body and not the "mind behind it". |
| Sill Alias |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 12:06:25
I think it is possible that his malevolence and wish of revenge plus him being god with that portfolio that returns him back to the world of living. I just really like the idea of immortal evil that exists while good is afoot. That being said, I also believe that if there won't be counterpart, Ao will make one or will destroy him with snap of finger... Or whatever he has in void. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 04 Feb 2012 : 03:59:52
Question: What happened to the Karsestone? If it's still intact, presumably the Ascalhi Wulgreth still exists in some form as well. I believe it was last known to be in the possession of Shar. And, seeing as I couldn't find anything in the 'Keep on this related matter, here's the Wulgreth clarification:
quote:
George Krashos on community.wizards.com:
The answer is simply this: Slade's references to Wulgreth in that product of products, the "Netheril" boxed set, seemingly ignored the references to Wulgreth in FR5 "The Savage Frontier". Eric discussed this informally with a few Realms writers and we agreed that there would be two Wulgreths which was then canonised in Troy Denning's Shade novels and then in subsequent products like LEoF. It was the simplest and neatest option available and a stark lesson in the damage caused by 'writing in a vacuum'.
-- George Krashos
Heh... a lesson learned so well it needed to be learned more than once. Anyway, for those who don't know the story, the "younger" Wulgreth of Ascalhorn, whose phylactery is the Karsestone, is the original Wulgreth; Wulgreth of Netheril is a later (in our time) creation to fix the temporal snafu. Personally, I would have made the two Wulgreths one wizard/lich who fled back in time to escape the wrath of the demons and devils of Hellgate Keep, maintaining a preserved appearance in the manner of Szass Tam (explaining his appearance to other arcanists as a living wizard) until his enclave crashed in Karsus' Folly, at which point those magics failed as well... therefore, after the Year of Sundered Webs, the demilich is the "true" Wulgreth; the existence of another lich named Wulgreth in the same area could even be explained as a wild-temporal-magic hiccup caused by the instability of the Weave during the Fall of Netheril.* I like that more than the idea of two separate liches with the same name residing in the same area who are connected with the same dead god. Too many coincidences for me. 
* - Edit: Or, even better, the temporal anomaly was caused by Wulgreth's use of time travel to go to an irrevocably doomed realm (according to Realms chronomancy, significant past events like the Fall of Netheril or the Fall of Myth Drannor cannot be changed by time travelers; they would undo the future they came from, and therefore create a paradox); the other Wulgreth is the one who did not travel back in time, who still exists because of that same paradox needing to resolve itself because of Wulgreth's presence at the Fall, even though he made no attempt (successful or otherwise) to change history. As for Wulgreth choosing to go to ancient Netheril, well, he didn't; his destination was also a product of magical flux. When and where was he trying to go? Who knows.  |
| The Sage |
Posted - 04 Feb 2012 : 02:01:01
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
This is also why I think the Karsestone was involved in Mystra's downfall - it still retained a piece of her power, and therefor was able to 'trap' her mortal essence (Midnight) within it (see Authentic Thaumaturgy by Bonewits, and the Law of Association in particular). Its not that she intentionally stored a piece of herself within it - its that Karsus stole a piece of her and thereby gained control of her (something any of her Chosen could probably do, which is why she has to trust them completely).
I've theorized a connection between Mystra and the Karsestone similar to that of Spider-Man and the symbiote that is Venom: because the Karsestone was once part of the deity of magic, it is shielded from the awareness of the current deity of magic. Meaning someone carrying the Karsestone could enter Dweomerheart without Mystra knowing about it...
I always liked this theory.
My own alternate take suggests that, perhaps, the Karsestone created a "hole" in the Weave, or some kind of "blank" area that neither Mystra I nor Mystra II were ever able to properly detect. Cyric could've made use of that "hole," thanks to Shar's manipulation. Magic of Faerūn established the basis of the Shadow Weave as the "gaps" in the Weave itself. It could be that the Karsestone, tainted by Shar's influence, exploited the principle of the Shadow Weave as "gaps" in the Weave and allowed Cyric to pass through into Mystra's realm without being detected. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 23:53:45
quote:
Originally posted by Varl
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So some beings of power might store parts of their essence in multiple items, and that could be another reason why it is nearly impossible to stamp them out for good. Orcus' wand is the obvious one, but who knows how many items he has? (and he may have several wands!)
Personally, I wouldn't take this tack. Like artifacts, there can and only should be one (or should imo). I'd call this an Overrule of Ao or similar cosmic law that no being can circumvent, not even the one that made it, Ao. So, as much as Orcus would love to have thousands of Wands scattered across space and time as some sort of life essence data backup, he's out of luck. That's how I run things like this, otherwise as you said, he's effectively immortal beyond immortality, and that's simply not going to be allowed by Ao imo. YMMV.
I don't think Ao cares. To him, Orcus is an ant. And an immortal ant is still an ant. In other words, so long as Orcus doesn't ruin the Balance which Ao eternally sustains, he wouldn't care how many times the demon lord resurrects himself. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 23:46:52
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
This is also why I think the Karsestone was involved in Mystra's downfall - it still retained a piece of her power, and therefor was able to 'trap' her mortal essence (Midnight) within it (see Authentic Thaumaturgy by Bonewits, and the Law of Association in particular). Its not that she intentionally stored a piece of herself within it - its that Karsus stole a piece of her and thereby gained control of her (something any of her Chosen could probably do, which is why she has to trust them completely).
I've theorized a connection between Mystra and the Karsestone similar to that of Spider-Man and the symbiote that is Venom: because the Karsestone was once part of the deity of magic, it is shielded from the awareness of the current deity of magic. Meaning someone carrying the Karsestone could enter Dweomerheart without Mystra knowing about it...
I like this theory. This can be an alternate explanation as to how Cyric, who plotted with Shar (who got the Karsetone), managed to circumvent the wards of Dweomerheart, entered it, and killed Mystra.
[But of course, I'd like to think Mystra wasn't killed at all. That it was just her schedule to undergo her regular Ao-pre-programmed reboot.] |
| Wolfhound75 |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 19:48:13
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I think Orcus is a little bit like a lich. His "essence" gets dispersed or ends up in a particular artifact (his scepter, for instance), and bides its time until it can put him back together. He got an influx of power going into 4e, and it allowed him to rebuild himself. Also, the goddess that was keeping him dead (Kiaranslee) was spending her own time in the grave, so to speak.
I can't help this...it's kind of like a gruesome scene where you know you should look away but can't....sorry. Hope the humor hits.
Maybe he's friends with Voldemort and through that friendship learned how to make Horcruxes.
Good Hunting! |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 19:21:43
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
This is also why I think the Karsestone was involved in Mystra's downfall - it still retained a piece of her power, and therefor was able to 'trap' her mortal essence (Midnight) within it (see Authentic Thaumaturgy by Bonewits, and the Law of Association in particular). Its not that she intentionally stored a piece of herself within it - its that Karsus stole a piece of her and thereby gained control of her (something any of her Chosen could probably do, which is why she has to trust them completely).
I've theorized a connection between Mystra and the Karsestone similar to that of Spider-Man and the symbiote that is Venom: because the Karsestone was once part of the deity of magic, it is shielded from the awareness of the current deity of magic. Meaning someone carrying the Karsestone could enter Dweomerheart without Mystra knowing about it... |
| Eldacar |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 17:28:26
I take the position that beings of great power (like demon lords, archdevils and gods) will cast a metaphysical shadow. They leave footprints in the sand. Their presence and power has a sort of weight to it, and will persist in many cases long after the being itself is slain. This shadow might only be a vestige of their power and identity, but given time, it can rebuild itself, "regenerate" if you will. It's just something inherent to their nature, that they are really, really hard to put down once and for all.
You can't kill them just by hitting them over and over again with your choice of sword, hammer, axe, arrow, spell, or whatever murderous death-dealing implement the enterprising adventurer favours these days. It takes much more than that. You need to erase them, remove their presence entirely. And that is far more difficult to accomplish than merely slaying the corporeal form of whatever cosmically horrifying beastie you're facing on this particular Tuesday afternoon.
Mystra dies? That doesn't mean she's gone forever. She'll leave behind shadows, whispers of her presence that can affect the world long after her death. Even bring about her "resurrection" to her full might.
Orcus dies? He lived on as Tenebrous for a time, but eventually returned to his status as a demon lord.
Bahamut/Marduk? Reduced to a shadow of what he once was, as I recall sacrificing his divinity and getting himself bound within some sort of extradimensional prison. Eventually, he broke free and regained much of the power that he had lost.
Demogorgon in the Savage Tide is a good one. He might die at its conclusion, but eventually the leftover bits and pieces of him will drag themselves together and thanks to the Abyss will congeal into a reborn Demogorgon. Weakened and without much of his power and stature, but he'll be back.
There are probably other examples. |
| Varl |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 17:07:27
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So some beings of power might store parts of their essence in multiple items, and that could be another reason why it is nearly impossible to stamp them out for good. Orcus' wand is the obvious one, but who knows how many items he has? (and he may have several wands!)
Personally, I wouldn't take this tack. Like artifacts, there can and only should be one (or should imo). I'd call this an Overrule of Ao or similar cosmic law that no being can circumvent, not even the one that made it, Ao. So, as much as Orcus would love to have thousands of Wands scattered across space and time as some sort of life essence data backup, he's out of luck. That's how I run things like this, otherwise as you said, he's effectively immortal beyond immortality, and that's simply not going to be allowed by Ao imo. YMMV. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 15:25:46
I just had a thought <EDIT: This line of reasoning was inspired by Erik's post>
I've thrown around the theory that 'uber' beings store their 'quintessential essence' with inside of something. This broad description covers everything from a liche's phylactory to a god's Domain*. Basically, the only way to permanently destroy these beings is through their phylactory (place/item).
In the Harry Potter series we learn about something called a Horcrux, which is nothing more then a piecemeal version of a Phylactory. I think Tan Chin (Ambuchar devayam) may also use a similar method (based on stuff in the trilogy of Hordeland modules). Also, Halaster's soul has been 'shattered'.
From that we can deduce that it is possible to separate a beings 'quintessential essence' (I don't like using 'soul', since I doubt demons even have those). Now, if we take what we know about phylactories (my broadened definition), then we can see that using such a 'horcrux method' is very dangerous, even though it provides multiple contingencies to 'come back'. Someone getting a hold of any of these artifacts would have the same ability to cause 'final death' as they would with just an individual item (although it probably requires more effort).
So some beings of power might store parts of their essence in multiple items, and that could be another reason why it is nearly impossible to stamp them out for good. Orcus' wand is the obvious one, but who knows how many items he has? (and he may have several wands!) I have a similar theory regarding Myrkul and the Crown of Horns.
This is also why I think the Karsestone was involved in Mystra's downfall - it still retained a piece of her power, and therefor was able to 'trap' her mortal essence (Midnight) within it (see Authentic Thaumaturgy by Bonewits, and the Law of Association in particular). Its not that she intentionally stored a piece of herself within it - its that Karsus stole a piece of her and thereby gained control of her (something any of her Chosen could probably do, which is why she has to trust them completely).
Just some "Theory of (fantasy) Everything" stuff I've been knocking-about in my head. YMMV
*As well as such oddities as Iron Kingdoms Soul Cages and the Magic Jar spell. |
| arry |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 13:30:10
Orcus keeps coming back because doing so brings more profits. |
| Shemmy |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 06:42:09
He's not as cool as Pale Night or Lamashtu (in PF), but he's pretty dang cool.
But being devoured by the Last Word couldn't have been pleasant, even if he managed to get returned to life by Qua Nomag (ostensibly so at the end of 2e). |
| Aryalómė |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 01:26:41
Well, I mean, he IS the demon prince of the UNDEAD ;) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 01:15:41
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I think Orcus is a little bit like a lich. His "essence" gets dispersed or ends up in a particular artifact (his scepter, for instance), and bides its time until it can put him back together. He got an influx of power going into 4e, and it allowed him to rebuild himself. Also, the goddess that was keeping him dead (Kiaranslee) was spending her own time in the grave, so to speak.
I like this theory.
I suspect, simply, that given his long history with both death and deities, Orcus has managed to divine many secrets regarding the control of one's "power/essence," the transference of life, and the possibility of redrawing to himself his dispersed power across the mutliverse. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 00:14:44
Not only good people die young. The evil+stupid, too. And Orcus is far from stupid. Simple answer to the OP: contingencies.
However, it would make more sense if in every "resurrection," he gets very weak, and thus endeavors to steal power from other entities. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 19:32:48
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
Erik, Orcus was back midway through 3e - by the time of the Fiendish Codex, at least.
Ah, yes, that's right. So 1.5 editions then, and plenty of time from 3.5 - 4e to rebuild his power base. 
Cheers |
| Varl |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 19:25:00
I think Orcus is smart enough to place many contingencies upon his eventual death, either through his cults or through his vast power he wields. Permanent destruction of Orcus should be on the level of permanent destruction of an artifact. The hoops you have to jump through just to get to him, then kill him, then make sure you've overcome all his contingencies he's undoubtedly placed, makes it so much easier to simply thwart his plans and undermine all his objectives. You weaken him by weakening his retinue of slavering followers, one pathetic cult at a time. Once you do that enough, I think you'll know exactly when you've irritated him enough, cause he'll make a personal visit to you. That's when you should strike because that's when he'll be weakest, and have a lot less contingencies to fall back on. Just an idea. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 19:24:39
Orcus can't stay dead because he's young. And as we've been told, only the good die young.  |
| Arivia |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 19:20:39
Erik, Orcus was back midway through 3e - by the time of the Fiendish Codex, at least. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 19:19:09
Gods wage war and kill each other all the time. Kiaransalee managed to kill Orcus for two whole editions (2e and 3e), and he finally managed to resurrect himself in 4e. I don't think it's that big a stretch, honestly.
I think Orcus is a little bit like a lich. His "essence" gets dispersed or ends up in a particular artifact (his scepter, for instance), and bides its time until it can put him back together. He got an influx of power going into 4e, and it allowed him to rebuild himself. Also, the goddess that was keeping him dead (Kiaranslee) was spending her own time in the grave, so to speak.
And I don't think Mystra's actually dead--or at least not in a permanent respect. But we'll see what Ed does in his upcoming books.
Cheers |
| Markustay |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 19:05:58
This is why some demon-Lords have cults.
When you establish any religion, you create a conduit between yourself and your followers, which is two-way... in other words, give-and-take.
Fiends don't like to give, they only like to take, which is why most don't bother going this route. Having to 'cater' to mortal's whims isn't something they want any part of (its almost like a self-binding, and they HATE getting bound).
On the other hand, its has the one great benefit of being 'brought back' - so long as you have someone praying to you, you can't die for good (except Mystra... which makes no sense... but what does these days?)
So Orcus fosters these annoying cults, on multiple worlds (because his cultists often get wiped-out with him), and he has a 'get out of jail free' card. Clever, no?
The big problem I see with this is that Fiends already don't die - they return to their plane of origin and eventually reform. I think this has something to do with how he is an 'undead' power (something neither a fiend or god should be). My theory is that because he has two different 'no dying' contingencies in-effect, they are getting their wires crossed, and we wind up with an undead demon lord. |
| Tamsar |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 18:46:56
He dies because he's cool, and gets resurrected for exactly the same reason! |
| Rhewtani |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 18:35:05
Probably to take the attention off of Vecna's similar tricks. |
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