| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 04:48:12
Would you like to help create some Realmslore (i.e., the very purpose of Candlekeep)?
Would you like to be immortalized/eviscerated in fiction (probably both)?
Well in that case, this is the CONTEST for you!
A thought occurred to me to have a contest, crafting Realmslore in real time to stitch the divided pieces of the Realms back together. None of it is canonical, of course, though it certainly *could* end up that way--the point here is to demonstrate that the Realms *can* be brought back together into a single canon that serves everyone.
This grows out of my "One Canon, One Story, One Realms" thread, which in turn reflects my thoughts on an all-inclusive Realms for 5e. Some of this is based on real design I know is going on, but much of it is just my opinion on how I think the Realms might be presented in the new edition. A vision of the Realms to bring everything and everyone together.
So without further ado:
Forgotten Realms Lore Reconciliation Contest
Inspired by my "One Canon, One Story, One Realms" concept, I would like to put together ways in which the canon *connects* between 3e and 4e.
There are a lot of doubters who say it can't be done--that 4e represents such a huge departure from FR canon that bridging the gap is not possible. But I say thee NAY--we will determine such connections, and thereby prove the possibility of reconciling every era of the Realms, such as I'm hoping 5e will do.
Rules:
1) Give me a canon issue (i.e. destruction of Halruaa, do something with the Spellplague, etc.), and I will answer it in a way that I think *works,* bridges the gap between 3e and 4e, and is true to the Realms (and hope you do too!).
2) Give me some time to do it--I'm a busy guy and will only ADMIT DEFEAT when I'm really stumped, not because I don't have time.
3) If I'm stumped, you WIN the contest and get a CHARACTER OF YOUR VERY OWN(!) in a forthcoming Erik Scott de Bie FR novel (I mean, assuming there ARE more coming). The contest does, of course, keep going, and there can be multiple winners.
(Caveat: It is almost certain that your character will appear for at most one page and be horribly killed by the hero/villain, but hey, you're still in the book!)
4) Nothing I say here is actually canonical--it's just a hypothetical connection. Don't expect WotC to actually do any of these suggestions (though who knows?)
5) We're keeping this positive and fun. If you say certain key phrases, like "4e cannot be reconciled" or "reboot" or "retcon," you are automatically disqualified from the thread.
6) Anyone else (fans/authors/designers) can propose ideas as well--canonical questions or answers. This isn't just the Erik Scott de Bie show.
7) Sage, Wooly, and THO (and Ed, through her) have agreed to serve as judges regarding my answers. (Obligatory American Idol Reference: I think this makes Wooly, as seemingly the least 4e-"happy" of the bunch, Simon.)
Consider them like Dungeon Masters hearing the suggestion of one of their players, with the question put to them "could I use this lore in my game?" If they reject an answer, I (or whoever produced it) get a chance to come up with something else, or admit defeat.
The judges are themselves free to pose Realmslore challenges or offer solutions to advanced Realmslore issues.
8) Since I *am* a FR author and privy to certain info you are not, if I say "I can't talk about it" or "NDA," that counts as a non-challenge. For instance, "Do something about Mystra!" is clearly Ed's territory and covered under NDA. I would hesitate to advance a solution to something I know is currently being worked on. Same goes for my own books (though I'll gladly point out that I'm working on it). Please respect this restriction!
And . . . go!
Cheers |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 04:58:39
Well, the point was it has to be a wardrobe, and the seeds had to come from one world, and then grown on another (which is not how it worked in OUaT, and not precisely how it worked in Narnia).
I guess you could possibly build more then a wardrobe, but it would have to be a completely enclosed space, not just a doorway - the door has to close behind you, before the portal opens in the back.
In the case of a Spelljamming ship or what-not, the material would have grown (fully formed) on the world the seed/nut was from, ergo the magic would not work. It has ti e something 'born of two worlds'.
In the case of Peter Bishop (Fringe)I mentioned above, he had been born on alternate Earth , but was raised on our Earth, so his 'frequency' had become re-attuned to our Earth (presumably every seven years every cell in your body gets replaced, and the new material would have come from the new world - at least thats my theory). However, he had a child with a woman from Earth-2, and even though he was born of Earth-2, he had become part of Earth-1's universe, so the child was of both, and acted as key between worlds.
So he didn't need a wardrobe. 
Applying this further to FR's mega-setting, that means Fey probably discovered this, and that is how they build their feygates - they grow plants from Faerie in the Prime material (and vice-versa), and use the link to power the gates (along with their own innate ability to detect these weak spots in 'the veil').
Thought might have the same mechanic, but is much weaker then a physical connection. Knowledge of another plane/world would make it easier for you to 'find' the path to it, but over time many have forgotten these paths, hence the name of our favorite setting. The paths are all still there, they are just MUCH harder to find now. This seems to be in-line with how teleportation works as well (the better you know the other end, the more likely you are to get there okay).
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 04:35:07
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So I'd not let any old item from anywhere act as a sort of portal or connection to its source... Otherwise, every spelljammer would be linked to its home sphere, and opening a door in that 'jammer may take you home, instead of into the galley. And a plane-hopping mage might reach into his belt pouch and reach somewhere back into the prime.
And so on, into ridiculousness.
So long as "any old item" maintained some level of connection to the planar energies making the connections between places, I don't see the issue.
Look at the portal keys of PLANESCAPE. Consider how strange some of those could be...
I'm not talking about what the object is -- I'm talking about the idea that I pick up an ordinary rock in Arborea, and it can somehow serve as a connection back to Arborea. With a mechanism like that, a planehopper could have objects keyed to 20 different planes tucked into his sock, and a few hundred more stuffed into his backpack.
What I'm saying is that it doesn't matter what the object is, I think it needs something more than just having been someplace to make a connection to there.
Going back to the Narnia example... The wardrobe connected back to Narnia because it was made from wood grown from the seeds of a magical apple from Narnia. It wasn't some random apple plucked off a tree, it was an extraordinary apple that even in Narnia was remarkable. The streetlight growing in the woods didn't have any connection to London, even though it was from there, because it came from a regular streetlight.
So in my mind, something that's keyed to a specific plane doesn't have to be any specific kind of object, but there does have to be something about the object that makes it different from identical ones.
With the fact that portal keys are keyed to portals, and not to planes, I don't think those are a valid comparison. A chicken feather might activate this portal to Arborea, but that one over there might require a golden tuning fork. Portal are like real-world doors: it doesn't matter how you unlock the door, that door is always opening to the same place. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 02:18:28
Basic D&D had "portal" items which could go Boot Hill, Gamma World, Star Frontiers, and other bizarre non-D&D worlds. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 01:34:34
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So I'd not let any old item from anywhere act as a sort of portal or connection to its source... Otherwise, every spelljammer would be linked to its home sphere, and opening a door in that 'jammer may take you home, instead of into the galley. And a plane-hopping mage might reach into his belt pouch and reach somewhere back into the prime.
And so on, into ridiculousness.
So long as "any old item" maintained some level of connection to the planar energies making the connections between places, I don't see the issue.
Look at the portal keys of PLANESCAPE. Consider how strange some of those could be...
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Apr 2012 : 18:58:07
With Narnia, though, it wasn't just any regular tree... The apple that the seeds came from was a special one; the kid had to basically go on a quest just to get this magical apple that healed his mom. And then those apple seeds were planted on Earth.
Considering that Aslan was involved each time, even with a magical apple, this might still have only been a one-time thing.
So I'd not let any old item from anywhere act as a sort of portal or connection to its source... Otherwise, every spelljammer would be linked to its home sphere, and opening a door in that 'jammer may take you home, instead of into the galley. And a plane-hopping mage might reach into his belt pouch and reach somewhere back into the prime.
And so on, into ridiculousness. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 30 Apr 2012 : 17:59:07
Not sure if this is really OT, but it is created lore, and ties-into the Forgotten Realms theme:
Last night I watched Once Upon a Time, which isn't normally a show I watch, despite its subject-matter. Its actually one of my sister's shows, and I was waiting for The Killing and Madmen to come on, which she also watches (and I like to see them on 'the big TV').
Anyhow...
Geppetto (don't ask) was tasked to take some wood from an enchanted tree (the last in the enchanted forest) and build a wardrobe. Apparently, when you build a wardrobe from an enchanted tree, it creates a door to another world (geee... wonder where they stole that one from). 
Here's my thought: If you take a seed/nut from one world, and plant it in another, the wood retains a two-way connection between both worlds, and this can be utilized in the fashioning of magical devices (such as a wardrobe-portal). This would be a natural ability within the material, so the normally difficult processes of creating such permanent gates would be circumvented. A mage stumbling upon this secret could profit from this... if he had the time, power, and inclination to do so.
I definitely think this is something the Imaskari would have stumbled upon - that something 'born' of one world, but from material brought from another, would retain that connection. I realize this isn't precisely how it worked in OUaT (or Narnia), but I wanted it to work within the D&D rules structure, without being overly powerful.
Anyone who watches Fringe will also see how this applies to Peter Bishop, although in his case it was more a matter of becoming attuned to the new plane over time (something very important in planer mechanics, especially when you are trying to Banish stuff). It also helps us with the greater FR phenomena - that other worlds/spheres are encoded in certain races' DNA, so that these people create a sort-of 'racial portal', allowing deities and other things to slip-through more easily (it thins the hypothetical 'veil' between the worlds).
Anyhow, just thought I'd stick this nugget somewhere, and I didn't want to start a new thread over it. Besides, this thread needed a good kick-start again.  |
| Lirdolin |
Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 18:38:23
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I like Egyptian knock-offs (like Stygia), but Mulhorand went too far with the derivation.
I also thought of Stygia when i wrote above , that the Fangs of Seth want to establish a new mulhorandi dynastic-kingdom south of mulhorand, above Okoth and it's hidden rulers.  |
| Markustay |
Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 04:41:50
I like Egyptian knock-offs (like Stygia), but Mulhorand went too far with the derivation. Now, if some other race 'returned' in the region of the northern Shar - like the civilized gnolls - and we had a neo-egyptian culture of those, that would be pretty sweet.
Derivation is only derivative when you see more commonalities with the original then you do differences. If you change just one or two major things - like race, or major deity - then it falls under the purview of "inspired by", rather xerox-copy.
The Disney game Wizards 101 uses a race of crocodile folk for its Egypt wanna-be, and it was cute. They also went for an elemental theme in each different area. Its the little things that set it apart (and thats a pretty fun game BTW - I used to play it with my two younger boys).
So, I would bring back something with a bit of 'pharonic' flare, and also bring back some of Maztice (not all of it, at least not like it was). With the spellplague doing the mish-mosh of worlds thing, this is a prefect opportunity to fix Maztica - don't throw the baby out with the bath-water. Merge the lore (locales and all) with Returned Abeir, and its a win-win. You spice-up an otherwise flat RW derivation, and turn the RA lore into something more useable (because then it would be truly different then just another continent of medieval fantasy kingdoms - all of which we have on the main continent, making the entire thing horribly redundant).
Also, either bring back a fully functional portal-network (turn it into a guild-run thing), or do something else with travel (blimps, trains, magical sailing ships, Faerie-paths, etc). Thats the only way places like the shining South, Maztica, the Utter and far East, Zakahara, Chult, and all those other DM-only (OH NO! here comes Bob!!!  ) continent/islands all over the place - into useable adventure areas for DMs. No one wants to bother with a sessions-long trek across the globe anymore - folks today need instant gratification. Whats the point of taking away the portals - that was THE most useful tool Ed ever came up with for running D&D games (and we are talking about a man with a toolbox that would make Sears jealous). Put 'em back, and emphasize them. People need to get from point 'A' to point 'B' in a hurry when the "fate of the world hangs in the balance" (doesn't it always?) |
| Lirdolin |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 18:38:00
quote:
Originally posted by EytanBernstein
I'm glad someone got some use out of the Unthalass adventure in DoF.
Among other sources, yes :) |
| EytanBernstein |
Posted - 04 Apr 2012 : 18:08:50
quote:
Originally posted by Lirdolin
Save some of the spirit of the Old Empires:
Shadows of the Old Empires
The Citadell of Ash
Located in the Smoking Mountains, the Citadell of Ash, formerly a fortress-temple of the now dead god Gilgeam, is now the domain of Gilgeam’s exarch Shuruppak the Reaper, Lord of the Plain of Black Ash. Having absorbed some of Gilgeams scattered divine strength through artifacts and the leftovers from a failed god-golem experiment, Shuruppak is now a demigod himself, who hopes, that from him Gilgeam will one day be reborn. He gained the loyalty of the Citadell’s huecuvas and a huge following of descendants of untherite Mulan. Shuruppak hates the dragonborn and kills everybody who calls the land by any other name than Unther. Presently he rules supreme in the Smoking Mountains and on the Plain of Black Ash. The raids of his followers strike deeper into Tymanther every year, with the dragonborn unable to bring down the well fortified Citadell of Ash, only adding to it’s defenses as slain dragonborn are revieved as undead soldiers of Shuruppak.
Under-Unthalass
The tunnels and warrens below ruined Unthalass are the realm of Erishkigal, Queen of Tortures, a fiendish lamia born of marilith blood claiming to be scion of the all but forgotten goddess of the unteric underworld, whose name she bears. She is served by tribes of wererats, lamias, lizardfolk and remaining Untherites, whose society worked out a semblence of a city-state of old Unther. Erishkigal sees herself as Queen of Unther now and views Tymanthers dragonborn as invaders. Her closest allies are the ‘Spawn of the Dark Queen’, the cult of Tiamat. The cult is headed by Braeden a female half-brown dragon and cleric of Tiamat. Together with her mother Slavin’krath’magaal, a female fiendish brown dragon, she is
building a force of dragonborn and dragonspawn creatures of Tiamat, to back Erishkigal’s warriors when the time for war against Tymanther is right.
Children of the Gods
The tieflings and devas of Geldaneth claim divine descent and although not a few are children of slaves and fiends, many are in fact descendants of the manifestations of Mulhorand’s (and to a lesser extent Unther’s) old Gods. Well know ‘divine’ offspring are:
Derlaunt a deva formerly serving Thoth, but who now is in the service of Oghma.
‘Inanna’, deva of the dead godddess Inanna and now serving Sune.
Qebehsenuef and Hapi, devas in servive to the banished god Horus-Re, waiting in their ‘father’s’ tempel in Geldaneth to return to the world.
Umara Ankh-Hathor is revered as a descendant of the vanished Mulhorandi goddess Hathor, and heads a secret circel of believers, which actually is only a glorified cover for a high-class brothel and a ring of thieves. Umara uses the religious facade to gain loyalty from many citizens, who want to protect the ‘old ways’ from the ‘Imaskari oppressors’.
The Wizards of Messemprar
The wizards sealed of their tower and protected themselves with ancient wards similar to the spells the imaskari used to keep out the old gods of the mulan in ancient times. In time their bodies began to fail and they helped each other to turn themselves into archliches. Now the deem the time is right to revisit the world, seek new students and rebuild the city of Messempar if possible.
The Holy Order of Assuran’s Revenge
“Transgressor…Betrayer… Defiler…I’m Assurael, the Avenging Angel! I shall punish you!!!”
‘The Holy Order of Assuran’s Revenge’ or ‘Order of Assuran’ for short is a secret circle of holy warriors mainly devas of mulan/untheric descent, who serve the ancient untheric god Assuran (who became Hoar). In their angelic guise they revere to themselves as Assurael, the Avenging Angel. They are mortal foes of the clergy of Shar and Cyric, the gods they hold responsible for the destruction of Unther and hate the dragonborn of Thymanter for taking Unther’s place in the world. As they do believe that the worship of Assuran or Hoar as Bane’s exarch is heresy they do not bow to the church of Bane. But as the Assurans do not act against Baneites without a cause for revenge, Bane doesn’t seem to mind. The order is active as far north as Waterdeep.
Fangs of Seth
The Fangs are a group of sethite cultists and are lead by the lich Hodkamseth of Skuld, the Lord of Seth. The group is sponsored out of the hidden realm of Okoth, and Hodkamseth hopes to rebuilt the mulhorandi empire in the south, above Okoth, so the mulan will be serving it’s secret masters. Currently the Fangs are aktive in High Imaskar and among their number are yuan’ti and mummies who all serve the god of serpents.
Vault of the Scorpion King
In Tymanther’s Underdark there is a large cavern, where untherite miners sought refuge when Unther was smashed by parts of Abeir. The chaotic energies of the Spellplague warped the miners and created Scorpionmen (Stingers), who organized themselves in the image of Unther’s lost society and built a city-state complete with a ziggurat where they honor the semi-divine Scorpion King as their leader and god.
I'm glad someone got some use out of the Unthalass adventure in DoF. |
| Lirdolin |
Posted - 20 Mar 2012 : 09:27:42
Bring back ‚the Names’ III
Zallanora Argentresses / Shoon VII
Shoon VII, the most evil wizard-dictator from human history and former demilich still inhabits the young body of the elf woman Zallanora Argentresses. Before the Spellplague ‘she’ had already succsessfully infiltrated the Cowled Wizards of Amn and nearly was ready to take over when the Spellplague struck and whipped her memories clean. She wandered aimlessly until an elftribe from Tethyr took her in. She lived some decades with the elves and even bore a daughter, but in the end unrest took her over and she became an adventuress who as it turned out was magically drawn to the ruined imperial city of Shoonach. There she almost knowingly made it through the defenses and gained access to the lower dungeons, where she found her old lair and regained her memories. Zallanora/Shoon then returned to the Cowled Wizards telling them the partial truth about the memory loss, claiming to wish to restart her studies and having lost almost all knowledge of magic.
Today ‘she’ again acts the part of the flirtous elf with a dry sense of humor, hidding her vast knowledge of ancient history and her magical powers of a 36th lvl. mage. Her curly silver hair has grown long and the copper skinned body of the short elf temptress haunts the dreams of many of the Cowled Wizard’s appreantices and masters alike.
In this way she gains power over her fellow students and her ‘tutors’, gathering lore, new magic and influence on the way, until she can take over the Cowled Wizards of Amn and make them her enforcers in rebuilding the Shoon-Empire.
Bhaal
After his last offspring rejected to become the new Lord of Murder and dispersed the divine energies into the astral sea, it took Bhaal decades to pull himself together as a vestige. During the chaos of the Spellplague he was finally able to possess one of his last followers, an assasin from the city of Triel near the Boareskyr Bridge. There he fathered a child, transfering his spirit into the unborn and absorbing the lingering energies of his avatar that was killed on the bridge by Cyric. His first victim was his mother who did not survive the rebirth of Bhaal. The god-child grew extremly fast and had killed his next victim by the age of two, becomeing stronger with every kill and reaching adulthood by the age of five. He left Elturgard and it’s paladins behind and took over an assasin-guild in Baldur’s Gate, where he had located an abandonded underground tempel dedicated to his former self. Bhaal has already ascended to the status of a demigod, never suspecting that some of his streaks of luck are actually the work of his former ally Bane, who seeks to bring back the Dark Three.
Myrkul / Crown of Horns
The Crown of Horns, bearing the essence of Myrkul, finally ended up in the hands of a Horned Harbringer, one of the dead god’s remaining desciples. The Harbringer willingly surrendered his body to Myrkul and was transformed into a lich. Myrkul, who had enyoed being free of Ao’s dictates and rules for a while, came to realize that he missed true divine power. But instead of aspiring to regain his former portfolio as Lord of the Dead, a divine mandate that would again bother him with managing the souls of the departed, he now plans to gain the portfolio of fallen Velsharon, Lord of the Necromancy. More powerful than the average lich, Myrkul has the powers of a demigod. He gathered his harbringer followers for the sole purpose of gaining access to the corpse of the dead god, which he suspects to be hidden in Aglarond. Myrkul being way smarter than Bhaal already sees the hand of Bane behind some of his past successes.
|
| Lirdolin |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 08:48:44
Yes, I agree. Just because a 'being' or it's followers think it is as powerful as Ao, that doesn't mean it actually is (or at least not in Realmspace).
On a smaller scale you might take the example of Karsus, who thought himself to be as powerful as the gods and look how well that turned out for him: Mystryl reloaded herself as Mystra, Netheril was crushed and Karsus turned into a thinking rock
And information on Far Realm entities from Bruce Cordell? I believe he is (unknowingly?) an agent of the Abolethic Sovereignity at least since Gates of Firestorm Peak |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 05:53:28
I think the fact that Ao hasn't intervened to crush the Abolethic Sovereignty means he doesn't perceive them as an actual threat to him. He exists far beyond the power of anything in Realmspace.
Cheers |
| Lirdolin |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 19:12:28
"The aboleths of Xxiphu rejoiced as they had finally archived their ultimate goal and the unreal form of their 'god', the Eldest, pushed through the gate they had created. Soon all of Realmspace would bow to the allpowerful ruling entity of the Far Realm , changing to it's whims and they would be masters of all other races. Then the first commands of the Eldest started to flood their minds and they were sure of their destiny. But in that instant the night sky itself seemd to take on form and a shape, dwarfing even the gigantic proportions of the Eldest stepped from the heavens. With one swift blow it crushed the Eldest transforming the undiscribable into unidentifiable. With a second move the nightsky taken form banished the pulp the eldest had become back through the gate, which exploded an instant later. As if in answer to the panicing thoughts of Xxiphus residents how this could be possible, the nightsky-being spoke with a voice of exploding suns inside the aboleths heads:
"Because I'm Ao - the Alpha and the Omega of Realmspace!"
Many aboleths heads exploded under the strain or lost their formidable intellects and as the powers that kept Xxiphu afloat diminished it sloly dropped into the sea, sinking into a dark watery abyss, draging the main force of the Abolethic Sovereignity with it.
|
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 17:42:15
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
EDIT: (because Karsus posted before I posted the response below). You are going by past (1e/2e/3e) lore, much of which has been over-written by newer (4e) lore. People only thought those things were deities before.
The 4e books did not change them; they are deities.
My point was, with what WotC did to the cosmology (stomped all over it), 'all bets are off'.
Bruce Cordell has already decided the 'king of the Catfish' (The Eldest) is more powerful then Ao; tomorrow he may decide that Ao was really a tangerine, and there is nothing we can do about it. When decisions are being made based on personal preferences, rather then '"whats good for the Realms", we can't count on ANYTHING being what it was in past lore.
They were deities... in 5e they could be asparagus.
{Psssst... does that count as "creating Realmslore"? }
Not if it's ad absurdem. :)
And the Eldest may be more powerful than Ao from a particular point of view under particular circumstances. I doubt Ao could beat him/her/it/them in the Far Realm, but the Eldest isn't nearly as powerful as Ao in the prime material realm.
In case we're not clear what "unreliable narrator" and "opinion/misinformation" means, let me make it clear: Not everything printed in a novel is canonically true.
Cheers |
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 16:05:26
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
EDIT: (because Karsus posted before I posted the response below). You are going by past (1e/2e/3e) lore, much of which has been over-written by newer (4e) lore. People only thought those things were deities before.
The 4e books did not change them; they are deities.
My point was, with what WotC did to the cosmology (stomped all over it), 'all bets are off'.
Bruce Cordell has already decided the 'king of the Catfish' (The Eldest) is more powerful then Ao; tomorrow he may decide that Ao was really a tangerine, and there is nothing we can do about it. When decisions are being made based on personal preferences, rather then '"whats good for the Realms", we can't count on ANYTHING being what it was in past lore.
They were deities... in 5e they could be asparagus.
{Psssst... does that count as "creating Realmslore"? } |
| Lirdolin |
Posted - 09 Mar 2012 : 22:41:31
Bringing together old and new Dragonborn
and
An Idea for Abeir's location after the Spellplague (bringing Maztica, Mulhorand and the nenthir Vale back into the game)
‘Dragonborn’ Races of the Realms
Dragonborn of Abeir
The dragonborn of Abeir are an ancient race, hateful of their draconic progenitors and the dawn titans. Due to intermingeling for millenia, their scales are no longer clearly divided into the colors of the metallic and chromatic dragons from whose essences they were once born due to the machinations of the Dawn Titans. Two large groups of abeiran dragonborn were brought to Toril during the Spellplague, the dragonborn of the ‘new’continent Laerakond and the dragonborn of Tymanther, whose lands smashed and effectivly replaced Unther.
Dragonborn of Toril
Toril’s native Dragonborn are a rather young species, only recently created during the years before the Spellplague by the gods Tiamat and Bahamut. First created by rituals from devote followers of the two draconic gods as warriors for the renewed Dragonfall War, they later bred true. They revere dragons as superior beings and their scales still match the alignments and colors of their ancestors, so a blue scaled dragonborn probably is an evil follower of Tiamat. The dragonborn still are most often found were their deity’s influence is strong, so there are still large groups found in Damara and in the ruins of Unther. Many have also flocked to the dragons ruling Murghôm.
Half-dragons
Half-dragons are the actual offspring of humanoids and dragons and appear to be of their humanoid parents race, but mixed with draconic features of it’s dragon parent. Half-Dragons are quite common in dragon-ruled lands of Abeir and Toril like or Murghôm the draconic domains of Laerakond and Abeir.
Saurials
Abeirs saurials live in a jungel that mirrors the landmass of Toril’s Chult, were they live in a tribal society, revering the Estelar, the gods of Abeir, among them a deity of Justice and a goddess of Luck. Their main rivals are the towering jungelgiants who hunt the saurials.
Toril’s saurials are divided into two main cultures and only the one from Kara-Tur’s Malatra jungels being actually native to Toril. The saurials of Faerûn were brought from Abeir by the god Moander during one of the smaller dimensional alignments of the two twin planets. Here they adapted by chosing divine patrons corresponding to their abeiran gods. During the Wailing Years these Saurials were driven from their hidden dale into the Underdark by Netheril.
Abeir-Toril
In the years before the Spellplague many scholars wondered about the origin of the word ‘Abeir’ before the name their planet Toril. Little did they know, that the double word described two worlds, both created by Ao that shared the same space in Realmspace but on two different dimensions. One he gave to the gods, the other to the primordials. But to function both worlds needed divine and primordial stewards, so Toril kept the primordial elemental ‘gods’, while Abeir had a few ‘Estelar’, gods who managed non-elemental portfolios like love, luck, justice, good and evil. Sometimes the barriers between these two worlds became thin, when the two worlds were in alignment. One such occasion was used by the dark god Moander to kidnap a tribe of saurials from Abeir. Disaster struck when the Spellplague hit Toril and the two planets happend to be in alignment and parts of the worlds exchanged places or destroyed each other. Ao rescued the two worlds by bringing the dimensions together again, but he hid Abeir on the opposit side of the sun, unseen by Toril. Only recently spelljammers have brought news of the ‘new’ planet within Realmspace and stranger yet reportthat the vanished lands of Maztica and Mulhorand can now be found there. Some adventurers also report that they have found an old gate that now connects these two worlds insted of it’s former destinations. They didn’t say where they found the gate, but it can probably found somewhere where the plantes merged, so maybe in Tymanther, Akanûl, High Imaskar or Laerakond.
Abeir’s best 'known' native continent is Shyr whose landmasses coresponds roughly to Toril’s Faerûn. Maztica replaced the continent of Laerakond, while Mulhorand destroyed the realm Telos when it appeared, Telos' primordial despote, Telos the Steeltyrant still missing but not missed. Besides humans dragonborn, dwarves and genasi are numerous races with elves, eladrin and uncorrupted jungel darkelves being a minority, although the Feywild started to connect to the new world when it appeared in Realmspace, so the fae races started to appear in Abeir in slighly greater numbers today. With the elven races came the whorship of Corellon and a well known center of estelar/god-whorship is found in Shyr's Nenthir Vale region, where the gods of Abeir are revered, but recent interlopers like Bane have already set up shop as well. Abeir has a moon similar to Selûne and also sports a second, smaller companion moon, but lacks the Tears of Selûne.
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| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 03:10:22
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
EDIT: (because Karsus posted before I posted the response below). You are going by past (1e/2e/3e) lore, much of which has been over-written by newer (4e) lore. People only thought those things were deities before.
-The 4e books did not change them; they are deities.
-And, from a mortal point of view, as I was discussing with Sage, if a mortal in 1,376 DR thought of [Inset Entity that was in 1e/2e/3e a 'Deity' and is now a 'Primordial'], the only major difference between that person worshiping [Inset Entity that was in 1e/2e/3e a 'Deity' and is now a 'Primordial'] and a person worshiping [Inset Entity that was in 1e/2e/3e a 'Deity' and is now a 'Primordial'] in 1,386 DR is semantics- semantics that, seemingly, are more metagame than anything else.
-Was not Bender worshiped as a deity despite being a bending unit? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 02:54:21
EDIT: (because Karsus posted before I posted the response below). You are going by past (1e/2e/3e) lore, much of which has been over-written by newer (4e) lore. People only thought those things were deities before.
____________________________________________________________________________
Thinking more on my last post, I have a slightly altered theory: ALL gods require a power-source, therefor Primordials cannot 'exist in a vacuum' (metaphorically speaking).
Deities are gods that have found a way to tap-into human faith (and non-human, in many cases). Primordials probably derive their energies from the elemental chaos - the primal soup of the universe itself. Like the deities, this is a two-way conduit, which is what makes them so much more alien (to us) then the deities are.
Ergo, all gods require some sort of 'cosmic power', and for each group it might be something different. For instance, Fiend-lords and Archfey may tap-into the Outer Planes themselves (each tapping into a different plane, aligned with their nature).
So now we must ask ourselves, do the beings plugged-into planes for power get their nature from the plane, or does the plane get its nature from the beings tapping it? Or, as in the case of the mortal/deity relationship, is it a two-way street, with both giving and taking (which helps us understand the sheer multitude of 'like' things in the universe).
So, like 4e characters, gods have power-sources, which would include all the planes, including the Prime. This might help explain some of the weirdness of the 4e lore (in regards to older lore) - do the four elemental lords have special exceptions because they are focused on one element? Suppose all the (other) Primordials were tapped-into the Elemental Maelstrom for power, and then the deities somehow (mortal belief?) distilled the elements from the chaos, first into the four prime elements, and then into the four Para-Elemental planes, and finally into the Eight Quasi-Elemental Planes. This may have been why the gods separated the chaos - to de-power the Primordials. The ones that chose to limit themselves to just one Element (or energy-type) were allowed to stay within the normal universe, but the rest were banished (once they were sufficiently weakened).
Ergo, in 4e, when the elemental planes all came crashing back together, the Primordials regained much of their lost power, and can now break-free of their prisons.
Its as good a theory as any. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 02:40:24
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I don't think any of the first three you just named are true deities.
-And yet, we know they are deities.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
IF a deity requires worship (which they do, even before Ao mandated their interaction), how can deities have existed prior to teir being mortals to worship them? A deity, by its nature, is nothing without worship.
Primordials, on the other hand, require no worship. Their power is their own, and they neither help nor require mortals at all. Take away a deity's faithful, and it withers and dies - Primordials can exist forever in vacuum, without any outside forces interacting with it.
-Worship is only one part of the total equation that a divinity draws their power from. We know various deities currently exist, or did exist, that received little-to-no worship (Shar and Selûne before there was anyone to worship them in the past, Ulitiu and Auppenser, more contemporarily, for example). If a deity holds a portfolio that is sufficiently 'powerful' (for a lack of better words), their continued existence is guaranteed by that portfolio.
-The equation can roughly be written as P = W(N x F) + Po1 + Po2..., where:
P= Power
W= Worship Base
N= Number (of worshipers)
F= Fervor (or worshipers)
Po= Portfolio |
| The Sage |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 01:23:14
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Deities traditionally tend to have divine/celestial/otherworldly aspects to their personaes, while primordials tend to feel more grounded in the firmament of hard-earth reality.
-Which could be said about numerous 'deities'. Chauntea is the very earth herself. Umberlee is the sea, and the storms. Auril is the snow and blizzards. Silvanus is nature. And many others.
That's true. But at the same time, that kind of mindset isn't as predominant as I'd imagine it would be for the primordials.
I'll also say that I'm not dismissing the notion that the saurials might have considered the primordials as deities. And I suppose the fact that deities weren't as prevalent on Abeir would make it more difficult for the saurials to distinguish any differences -- whatever they may be -- between the two divine groups.
Overall, though, I just like the notion that the saurials venerated the primordials as something distinctly different from that of deities. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 21:19:39
I don't think any of the first three you just named are true deities.
Gods, yes, but deities? Doubtful....
IF a deity requires worship (which they do, even before Ao mandated their interaction), how can deities have existed prior to their being mortals to worship them? A deity, by its nature, is nothing without worship.
Primordials, on the other hand, require no worship. Their power is their own, and they neither help nor require mortals at all. Take away a deity's faithful, and it withers and dies - Primordials can exist forever in vacuum, without any outside forces interacting with it.
Primordials are independent. Deities are co-dependent. Ergo, Chauntea (as a deity) could not possibly have existed before there were 'people' to worship her.
Auril is the same being as The Queen of Air & Darkness (4e lore), so we know she is an archfey (and sister of Titania). I think Umberlee is another, and maybe the same 'sea god' mentioned in the 2e Spellbound box (pg.55), which would definitely point to a fey-connection for her as well.
Silvanus? An amalgam-deity borrowed from the Celts by the Romans (providing further proof for me that their was at least one group of ancient Romans in the Realms). He never seemed so much as representation of nature itself to me - he's more about farming and husbandry (civilized nature). I peg him as another archfey (Oberon?). |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 19:27:39
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Deities traditionally tend to have divine/celestial/otherworldly aspects to their personaes, while primordials tend to feel more grounded in the firmament of hard-earth reality.
-Which could be said about numerous 'deities'. Chauntea is the very earth herself. Umberlee is the sea, and the storms. Auril is the snow and blizzards. Silvanus is nature. And many others. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 02:12:37
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
[quote]Additionally, the previous lore on the saurials states that they worshipped an alternate pantheon of gods, and, only after their arrival on Toril, did they convert to the worship of equivalent deities in Faerûn.
So far as I know, deities aren't exactly prominent on Abeir. Therefore, unless the saurials worshipped the Primordials of Abeir, the previous edition reference that the saurials came from another world, still holds some validity in the current post-Spellplague era, given the pantheon tidbit I noted above.
-Don't fall into the trap of semantics. For all intents and purposes, a 'Primordial' can and will be treated as a deity by mortals (Kossuth, and all of the other Primordials-retconned-from-deities), just like Archfey, Archelementals, Archdevils, Demonlords, Primus, and other highly powerful Outsiders are.
In The Haunted Lands trilogy, it was noted that Primordials are not exactly deities, but close to in power. I think it was a certain priest of Bane who said it to Cera, a cleric of Kossuth. So not all mortals think of primordials as deities, or at the very least, not the clerics of non-Primordial entities. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 02:07:53
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Or maybe the Phaerimm (and Sharn?) exist 'outside of time' - they would have memories of things others do not (from defunct timelines). That would really help us fudge quite a bit of inconsistencies (like I keep saying, the tools to fix the Realms are built right into the lore). The Pharimm/Sharn (and others) could be like the El-Aurian from Star Trek - they "have an awareness that supersedes the normal flow of time and space" (Whoopi Goldberg's character Guinan was an El-Aurian).
An interesting theory, but one I disagree. If the phaerimm were outside of 'time,' they should not have been affected by the magical storms brought about by the endless experiments of the Netherese. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 02:06:58
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
It's not really an issue of semantics, but, rather, looking at the perception of deities and primordials from the perspective of the saurials.
Unless we're introduced to new lore that suggests otherwise, I'm inclined to assume that the saurials can tell the difference between divine deities and elemental "deities," like primordials.
-What's the functional difference between the two, 'deities' and 'primordials', to a mortal worshiping them?
That would depend on how you play them, I suppose.
Deities traditionally tend to have divine/celestial/otherworldly aspects to their personaes, while primordials tend to feel more grounded in the firmament of hard-earth reality.
I suppose the argument could be made that being of an "earthy-racial type" themselves, the saurials have more affinity for primordials, than they have for investing their religious interest in otherworldly entities. Perhaps they perceive the primordials as having a special relationship with the land and the world they inhabit, like the saurials, and see deities as something else entirely. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 01:51:10
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
It's not really an issue of semantics, but, rather, looking at the perception of deities and primordials from the perspective of the saurials.
Unless we're introduced to new lore that suggests otherwise, I'm inclined to assume that the saurials can tell the difference between divine deities and elemental "deities," like primordials.
-What's the functional difference between the two, 'deities' and 'primordials', to a mortal worshiping them? Where was the difference for X amount of years in-setting, where priests and priestesses of Akadi were invoking her as a 'deity'? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 01:40:49
quote:
Originally posted by Lirdolin
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Additionally, the previous lore on the saurials states that they worshipped an alternate pantheon of gods, and, only after their arrival on Toril, did they convert to the worship of equivalent deities in Faerûn.
So far as I know, deities aren't exactly prominent on Abeir. Therefore, unless the saurials worshipped the Primordials of Abeir, the previous edition reference that the saurials came from another world, still holds some validity in the current post-Spellplague era, given the pantheon tidbit I noted above.
Deities are known on Abeir as Estelar who fought the Dawn Titans (primordials), see FRCG pg.200.
True. But we're also told that these references to ancient deities are secrets locked in the past history of Abeir. I wouldn't expect the saurials would immediately have access to such knowledge, especially when we're specifically told that only a handful of humans have any knowledge of these events. And this was long before the primordials became ensconced as the primary higher-level powers on Abeir.
So unless the saurials were worshipping the pantheon that held Estelar as one of it's members, and also possessed the knowledge required for knowing of this ancient and lost pantheon of gods, it's still a vague possibility that this could suggest saurials coming from Abeir.
...
Interestingly, I'd entertain the likelihood that the saurials perhaps transitioned their belief system to primordials of similar guises and powers to those of the deities they once worshipped, especially after the primordials achieved dominance on Abeir.
Or, alternatively, perhaps Abeir was merely one planetary stop among several for the plane-hopping saurials. Maybe what we know of their original homeworld still remains the same, but they were either later transposed or journeyed to Abeir, before again being lifted from Abeir by Moander and planted on Toril. [I'll admit, that's stretching things even further, but for whatever reason, I enjoy tinkering with saurial origins.] |
| The Sage |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 01:31:25
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
[quote]Additionally, the previous lore on the saurials states that they worshipped an alternate pantheon of gods, and, only after their arrival on Toril, did they convert to the worship of equivalent deities in Faerûn.
So far as I know, deities aren't exactly prominent on Abeir. Therefore, unless the saurials worshipped the Primordials of Abeir, the previous edition reference that the saurials came from another world, still holds some validity in the current post-Spellplague era, given the pantheon tidbit I noted above.
-Don't fall into the trap of semantics. For all intents and purposes, a 'Primordial' can and will be treated as a deity by mortals (Kossuth, and all of the other Primordials-retconned-from-deities), just like Archfey, Archelementals, Archdevils, Demonlords, Primus, and other highly powerful Outsiders are.
It's not really an issue of semantics, but, rather, looking at the perception of deities and primordials from the perspective of the saurials.
Unless we're introduced to new lore that suggests otherwise, I'm inclined to assume that the saurials can tell the difference between divine deities and elemental "deities," like primordials. |
| Lirdolin |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 21:32:04
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Additionally, the previous lore on the saurials states that they worshipped an alternate pantheon of gods, and, only after their arrival on Toril, did they convert to the worship of equivalent deities in Faerûn.
So far as I know, deities aren't exactly prominent on Abeir. Therefore, unless the saurials worshipped the Primordials of Abeir, the previous edition reference that the saurials came from another world, still holds some validity in the current post-Spellplague era, given the pantheon tidbit I noted above.
Deities are known on Abeir as Estelar who fought the Dawn Titans (primordials), see FRCG pg.200. As this name seems to be known even today it is not difficult to imagine, that Abeir 'needed' a set of divine beings to function, just like Toril retained it's score of Primordials. As the dawn titans were weakend enough to be brought low by the dragons it's probable that these few gods had little to nothing to fear from them. I would imagine, that Abeir's god's would regulate fundamental mechanics of the world that are not 'elemental' based: Love, Hate Magic, Good, Evil and so on. So Abeir's water 'god' is a neutral primordial, but they have a fickle chaotic evil sex-goddess who let's people fall in love on a whim, so procreation of the races is ensured .
And if the saurians revered a deity of justice and a goddess of Luck, then they might have been part of that pantheon too. |
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