| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| jordanz |
Posted - 26 Dec 2011 : 00:20:41
POSSIBLE SPOILERS FROM THE UNDEAD & BROTHER OF THE GRIFFIN NOVELS
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In terms of magical skills and or power do youguys think Aoth has progressed in the 100 years after the spellplague? When he confronted Szass Tam and Malark he was already pretty darn formidable against ahost of power monsters like beholders and demons e.t.c
Fast forward 100 years later and I would expect him to be even more competent. By this time I expect him to be a bonafide Epic level battle mage but it seems like he's still at the same point from pre spellplague.
Is this a case of a character reaching their highest potential in terms of magical appititude? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| MeddlerSage |
Posted - 27 Oct 2014 : 12:26:15
Yes probably! If I remember correctly, Aoth says that he is a battlemage - I think warmage supplement has been added later to the trilogy.
And anyone can help me finding Spectral Blaze - pm pls!- Because I cannot buy e-book -kindle- versions, it is illegal in Turkey :( (and I want the book on my bookshelf!! |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Sep 2014 : 19:44:50
Personally, I wonder if Aoth was even considered a warmage in 3.5. I don't think it was until he relearned magic that he changed. I would have figured him for a standard wizard (evocation specialist) with some levels in eldritch knight and possibly spellsword (and personally, would have had him in a prestige class revolving around the Thayan Griffin Legionnaires). |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 28 Sep 2014 : 12:54:08
Welcome aboard!
Well game rules dont fully apply to the novels so I think it is probably a case of the author taking a few liberties. |
| MeddlerSage |
Posted - 27 Sep 2014 : 21:34:13
I want to ask a question about Aoth that troubles me. (By the way this is my first message on candlekeep! Ive been following you guys for years but now I'm one of you!)
Here is the question. Ive read the Haunted Lands trilogy. Couldn't begin to Brotherhood of Griffin because I cant find the Spectral Blaze anywhere! In the very begining of Unclean, Aoth takes a ride with Brightwing to search for the Sunrise Mountians. Then they are attacked by undead skin kites and Aoth cast a spell to make Brightwing faster -probably Expeditious Retreat or Haste- But as I recall there are no such spells on Warmage Spell list. And with advanced learning, a warmage can add only evocation spells to his spell list. So what is your opinion? |
| Syllick Rhondial |
Posted - 14 May 2014 : 02:56:16
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Aoth was forced to spend a lot of time dealing with politics, logistics, tactics, survival, mucking his familiar's stall ... I think a sizeable chunk of that 100 years would've been allocated towards these sorts of mundane details rather than advanced magical studies and experimentation. Powerful established mages have underlings to tend to these sorts of things, Aoth never had any chance to exercise his power or establish himself outside of battle, so he's gotta get his hands dirty wasting time on details.
He also spent a lot of time after his blinding, years or perhaps even decades, being a depressed mope and having to relearn how to "see" again. Insofar as raw stats go, I don't think Aoth is at the high-end for Intelligence ... his focus is more practical application, good enough to get the job done.
As I understand it, he did increase in levels and power. Just not so much in magecraft as in martial stuff.
Seems plausible I guess..But that illustrious rep his mercenary company built couldn't be all from bureaucracy, it had to be earned out in the field..So lets say after 60-75 years of waging wars ,and battling powerful undead , evil mages, Dragons, and outsiders you would think he would have come across some more exotic attack spells outside of magic missiles, fireballs, lightning, and the occasional Prismatic sphere.
I haven't yet read The Spectral Blaze (and quite frankly, not sure I'll ever want to, given the glaring presence of dragonborn), so I don't know how Aoth fared in that book. But going by The Haunted Lands Trilogy and the first two books of Brotherhood of the Griffon, I could see Aoth's “improvement.” But it's hardly enough to qualify as the pinnacle of magecraft. Ayrik exaggerated the blindness part. It took only less than a year for Aoth to adjust to his new vision.
Aoth doesn't do all the fighting that involves magic. That's why he's got Jhesri and other wizards and clerics. So some opportunities where he could learn and utilize magic might not have been presented to him. He couldn't be in all places at the same time. Aoth is a fine commander, a brilliant tactician, and a good enough wizard. But to eyes of Szass Tam and the zulkirs who've spent centuries perfecting their craft, he's just an ant (with a stick).
Medrash and Balasar were awesome dragonborn, so give it a try. That said, Aoth handled himself well in The Spectral Blaze especially when he fought of an army of abishai (spoiler-ish). You should give it a try. But back to the conversation, as a war-mage, Aoth is indeed a formidable foe. That doesn't mean more devoted arcane casters aren't more powerful than him. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 06:19:43
Again, it's not clear if the vasuthant's power involves alteration of time or complex illusion. |
| Averis Vol |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 06:07:11
he also could have been referring to his break enchantment that shattered the vesthaunts spacial hold on mirror, he was frozen in time and space and he spent attempt after attempt trying to break it with his countersong, and eventually did. i'm not sure if those were the specific abilities he used but that's all i can imagine. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 02 Jan 2012 : 13:32:36
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
If Ao becomes an archmage, or as powerful as one, he'd most likely quit the Brotherhood and live in relative peace and quiet where he can find more time for magical research and experimentation. So, he has to stay as he is because he's got at least one more trilogy to finish as the Brotherhood's captain. [Right, Richard?]
What I mean is that he lives forever I think he will eventually tire of being someone else's servant, hired or no. I think it will take a while because he is kind of stubborn. It could be another century of losing comrades. It could be a century of lots of success and eventually having more gold then he could ever hope to count thus forcing him to wonder what to do with all of it. But, I do think if he lives long enough he will decide that he wants to be his own master. From there, if enough time passes boredom will set in eventually and he will want to meddle, either to advance some goal or desire or just to pass the time. And to do that takes power. I don't see it happening for centuries, but I do think it would happen. I believe it's his immortality more than anything that will drive him to become more than he is now. I think one of the only ways for it to happen quickly would be if he is put in a situation where he has to use some very powerful magic (a very powerful spell he hasn't used before, an artifact, being part of a major magical ritual, whatever) to overcome something and once he gets a taste of real power he decides that he likes it and wants more.
Interesting thoughts, and all very likely.
I've been thinking... We know that Aoth (unlike Bareris) is not the hopeless romantic type. But perhaps, by some jest of Lady Luck, one day he would find a woman he'd do anything for... And if that woman is caught amid an impasse that can only be solved via powerful magic that's currently beyond his reach, I suppose he'd do everything just to get it. Behind the rise and fall of a man is a woman, they say. |
| Tyrant |
Posted - 02 Jan 2012 : 03:22:04
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
If Ao becomes an archmage, or as powerful as one, he'd most likely quit the Brotherhood and live in relative peace and quiet where he can find more time for magical research and experimentation. So, he has to stay as he is because he's got at least one more trilogy to finish as the Brotherhood's captain. [Right, Richard?]
What I mean is that he lives forever I think he will eventually tire of being someone else's servant, hired or no. I think it will take a while because he is kind of stubborn. It could be another century of losing comrades. It could be a century of lots of success and eventually having more gold then he could ever hope to count thus forcing him to wonder what to do with all of it. But, I do think if he lives long enough he will decide that he wants to be his own master. From there, if enough time passes boredom will set in eventually and he will want to meddle, either to advance some goal or desire or just to pass the time. And to do that takes power. I don't see it happening for centuries, but I do think it would happen. I believe it's his immortality more than anything that will drive him to become more than he is now. I think one of the only ways for it to happen quickly would be if he is put in a situation where he has to use some very powerful magic (a very powerful spell he hasn't used before, an artifact, being part of a major magical ritual, whatever) to overcome something and once he gets a taste of real power he decides that he likes it and wants more.
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| Dennis |
Posted - 01 Jan 2012 : 18:40:04
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
For that matter, I can't even recall there's a time altering spell that's cast. The closest is Yaphyll's suicidal divination, which allowed her to send half of her being into the future. But it's not exactly time altering. I wonder if jordanz mistook the spell for something else?
Sorry I probably got my facts mixed up. I remeber when he
SPOILER
and mirror infiltrated Tam's underground tunnels and fought that weird beast that was conjuring up past versions of himself....something like that.
Ah, you must be referring to their fight against the vasuthant, a sentient wound in the fabric of time itself, a condition that allowed it to play tricks with the march of the moments to destroy its prey. It created several "versions" of Bareris at different stages of his life. I'm not sure if I would call it time altering, though. Illusion may be the appropriate term for it. |
| jordanz |
Posted - 01 Jan 2012 : 16:06:09
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
For that matter, I can't even recall there's a time altering spell that's cast. The closest is Yaphyll's suicidal divination, which allowed her to send half of her being into the future. But it's not exactly time altering. I wonder if jordanz mistook the spell for something else?
Sorry I probably got my facts mixed up. I remeber when he
SPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILER
and mirror infiltrated Tam's underground tunnels and fought that weird beast that was conjuring up past versions of himself....something like that. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 01 Jan 2012 : 05:58:35
For that matter, I can't even recall there's a time altering spell that's cast. The closest is Yaphyll's suicidal divination, which allowed her to send half of her being into the future. But it's not exactly time altering. I wonder if jordanz mistook the spell for something else? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 01 Jan 2012 : 00:57:06
I don't recall Bareris being able to counter or resist anything of the sort. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 31 Dec 2011 : 14:25:18
Bareris countered a time altering spell? For some reason I can't recall it. And oh! Who cast the said spell? Szass Tam? |
| jordanz |
Posted - 30 Dec 2011 : 03:56:25
I dont expect Aoth to be an archmage but I do expect him to be one of the best battlemages in the realms by now. The guy was holding his own versus Hordes of powerful undead beholders , and demons 100+ years ago, In my opinion he wasn't too far from Epic even then. But who knows perhaps the novels are not the best place to show this progression.
Tyrant you make good points although I do vaguely recall a certain Bard in the Unholy novels that was able to counter time altering magic...pretty powerful stuff.... |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 29 Dec 2011 : 13:20:53
Well i think the simplest reason is that Aoth is not Elimister and Richard Lee Byers doesnt want him like the Old Mage either so has capped his abilities at the point where he is still powerful but not phenomenally so and this helps to keep his battles with dracoliches and such more interesting and more in character. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 28 Dec 2011 : 21:12:54
If Ao becomes an archmage, or as powerful as one, he'd most likely quit the Brotherhood and live in relative peace and quiet where he can find more time for magical research and experimentation. So, he has to stay as he is because he's got at least one more trilogy to finish as the Brotherhood's captain. [Right, Richard?] |
| Wolfhound75 |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 22:27:25
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Ummm, no most everyone else in the world died due to old age, so they didn't have 100 years to advance their skill.
Hence the statement "Everyone we have to compare him against...." If they're dead, it's hard to compare them against each other. But against Szass Tam & other undead/overly long lived types, it's a plausible explanation of why he doesn't seem any more powerful at the end of The Haunted Lands.
@Ayrik
Agreed that he just may not be an epic level character. I was trying to keep the elements of each particular group of stories compared to like elements in the same story. Put into a mechanic-type 3.5e explanation, it's a level adjustment. Sometimes it just takes a character longer to gain the experience necessary to increase in level. Maybe there is more action in Drizzt's part of the world with Obould and the Kingdom of Many Arrows in comparison to Aoth taking "Garrison Duty" for a large part of that same time. Maybe he started lower and the xp gain in that time wasn't enough to let him achieve epic level status. Maybe it's a result of his spell scarring. To stay with your Drizzt example, I would say he was probably a lot more active than Aoth who was worried more about administrative issues with his merc company than he was about what new nasty was going to try and poke holes into his hide. Just my two-Zhents.
Note: I just finished The Haunted Lands last week so am just starting the subsequent stuff.
Side thought...someone pointed out that Aoth likes to use his staff a lot in battle. Pure speculation here - after reading some of those staff attacks seem awfully like a Hideous Blow from another class. Hmm....?
Good Hunting! |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 20:54:28
I don't think Occam's Razor is applicable in this instance. Or more accurately, I don't think it's a valid axiom because the explanation you've offered is not the simplest one.
You state that Aoth's levels may have advanced only enough to maintain relative parity with his peers. I disagree, since many other NPCs starting at comparable levels attained epic levels during the timejump whereas Aoth did not. Even lousy old Drizzt has done better.
I submit the simplest explanation would be that Aoth, to put it bluntly, is just not an epic character. Maybe he's too busy, lazy, slow, dumb, unlucky, whatever ... the fact is that he just hasn't levelled up a lot while other people are outpacing him. This suggests that Aoth is just lacking in whatever intangible trait impels some people to achieve greatness. He is not übermensch. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 19:54:05
quote:
Originally posted by Wolfhound75
Why doesn't Aoth seem any more powerful?
Occam's Razor - a principle that generally recommends that, from among competing hypotheses, selecting the one that makes the fewest new assumptions usually provides the correct one, and that the simplest explanation will be the most plausible.
Accordingly...
Aoth has had 100 years to advance his skills but so has everyone we have to compare him against. Thereby, the relative balance of power between said individuals remains largely unchanged.
Good Hunting!
Ummm, no most everyone else in the world died due to old age, so they didn't have 100 years to advance their skill.
Maybe he just didn't face any challenges that would give him actual XP (i.e. serious threats to his person). |
| Tyrant |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 19:39:08
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Aoth's seeming "puniness" compared to archmages shouldn't be entirely taken as something against him, though. Some powerful archwizards fell victim to a puny spellcaster's cantrip, or a thief's blunted knife. Besides, Szass Tam wouldn't have approached him (and the rest of the Brotherhood of the Griffon) if he were insignificant.
I agree that he shouldn't be underestimated. I would expect him to be better at using magic in a battle situation than a regular wizard, even one of higher level. In other words, because he specializes in a narrow field he is better at that particular use of magic than someone with a more expansive knowledge of magic. I would picture it along the lines of practical application vs. theoretical use. Other wizards may have some battle experience, but he makes it a career.
On the other hand, I would expect that over time his knowledge of Art would increase. So, if his spellscar made him truly immortal I could see him being an archmage (or some type of equivalent) at some point. The Warmage* has knowledge: arcana and spellcraft as class skills, so from a mechanical standpoint his general magical knowledge should advance. I take this to mean that at the very least once he hits epic levels (if he hasn't) then he could take part if some epic level rituals if not eventually be able to cast epic level spells himself (though I see that as being a long way off as he likely doesn't spend time delving into the deeper mysteries of Art). Alternatively, I could see him (based on mechanics, charisma being the main stat for a warmage) being a ruler somewhere or the head of a larger web of mercenary companies eventually (that too is likely a long way off).
I am basing my opinion on the idea that even though he is a warmage he should have general knowledge of Art to the point that if he were to take up wizardry (or if he suddenly developed sorcererous ability) he shouldn't be considered a first level caster in that class. I think that outside of certain prestige classes the rules don't handle this type of situation very well. A characters prior knowledge and experience with Art** should count for something if they multiclass into another arcane class (more so if the classes are very similar). If I were running a game I would probably try to come up with something to fit this situation.
*I'm basing that off of the Miniatures Handbook write up of the class so if it changed elsewhere, or in 4.0, that may not apply.
**With a martial character this is accounted for by their BAB continuously increasing even if they multiclass into something else. |
| Wolfhound75 |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 18:58:54
Why doesn't Aoth seem any more powerful?
Occam's Razor - a principle that generally recommends that, from among competing hypotheses, selecting the one that makes the fewest new assumptions usually provides the correct one, and that the simplest explanation will be the most plausible.
Accordingly...
Aoth has had 100 years to advance his skills but so has everyone we have to compare him against. Thereby, the relative balance of power between said individuals remains largely unchanged.
Good Hunting! |
| Dennis |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 14:46:48
I wholeheartedly agree, Tyrant.
Aoth's seeming "puniness" compared to archmages shouldn't be entirely taken as something against him, though. Some powerful archwizards fell victim to a puny spellcaster's cantrip, or a thief's blunted knife. Besides, Szass Tam wouldn't have approached him (and the rest of the Brotherhood of the Griffon) if he were insignificant.
Experience and knowledge-wise, Aoth is still a thousand miles away from reaching the full potential of magecraft. |
| Tyrant |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 00:52:32
I would think that it is a reasonable assumption that his levels advanced in the 100 year gap, and since then as well. However, I think the novels aren't the best medium to try to convey that because the game rules are nonsensical if you try to apply them to reality. Why would killing lots of rats and bears grant anyone greater magical insight (earning XP, advancing levels, learning new spells)? The better question then is, why doesn't everybody do that if that is how their world works?
That's why I think a better way would be to explain (in the case of spellcasters) that they have also been doing magical research or working for a more powerful spellcaster who is giving them pointers. With more martial characters it makes sense for their swordplay to improve with experience and with divinely powered individuals it can be chalked up to developing a deeper connection with their deity. For Aoth, I would assume that he became more efficient in his use of spells and/or that he has a larger pool to draw upon. However, I don't think he's anything approaching an archmage since being a battlemage gives him a narrow exposure to the Art. I think it would be similar with a swordmage or a bard (if I understand bardic ability properly). They know more than most about Art and can probably form a basic understanding of how most spells function, but they are not knowledgeable of the deepest secrets or the most powerful spells.
That's my take on it anyway. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 26 Dec 2011 : 07:32:13
But you probably are wrong.
 |
| Dennis |
Posted - 26 Dec 2011 : 07:19:41
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Hmm, I suppose I did exaggerate. I mistakenly recalled Aoth being crippled by his blindness for an overlong time.
It's in the same year, The Year of Blue Year. But I'm not exactly in the mood to count the exact number of months.
Do recall, the zulkirs were thankful for the Spellplague as much as they were worried about its effects to their craft. Magic acted like a stubborn child. They were practically crippled. Dmitra suggested that Lauzoril vivisect the ones that were touched by the Blue Fire and survived. Aoth happened to be one of them. But Malark saved him through a very obvious suggestion: what Lauzoril could find in vivisecting Aoth would be same thing he'd find in dissecting useless animals, like pigs and goats. Later, Aoth found out that the blue fire granted him some sort of extra-vision, seeing the truth about someone. That's how he learned of Malark's betrayal. All these happened shortly after the Spellplague struck Thay. That's less than a year. I reread the trilogy recently so I can't be wrong. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 26 Dec 2011 : 05:55:22
Hmm, I suppose I did exaggerate. I mistakenly recalled Aoth being crippled by his blindness for an overlong time. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 26 Dec 2011 : 04:48:19
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Aoth was forced to spend a lot of time dealing with politics, logistics, tactics, survival, mucking his familiar's stall ... I think a sizeable chunk of that 100 years would've been allocated towards these sorts of mundane details rather than advanced magical studies and experimentation. Powerful established mages have underlings to tend to these sorts of things, Aoth never had any chance to exercise his power or establish himself outside of battle, so he's gotta get his hands dirty wasting time on details.
He also spent a lot of time after his blinding, years or perhaps even decades, being a depressed mope and having to relearn how to "see" again. Insofar as raw stats go, I don't think Aoth is at the high-end for Intelligence ... his focus is more practical application, good enough to get the job done.
As I understand it, he did increase in levels and power. Just not so much in magecraft as in martial stuff.
Seems plausible I guess..But that illustrious rep his mercenary company built couldn't be all from bureaucracy, it had to be earned out in the field..So lets say after 60-75 years of waging wars ,and battling powerful undead , evil mages, Dragons, and outsiders you would think he would have come across some more exotic attack spells outside of magic missiles, fireballs, lightning, and the occasional Prismatic sphere.
I haven't yet read The Spectral Blaze (and quite frankly, not sure I'll ever want to, given the glaring presence of dragonborn), so I don't know how Aoth fared in that book. But going by The Haunted Lands Trilogy and the first two books of Brotherhood of the Griffon, I could see Aoth's “improvement.” But it's hardly enough to qualify as the pinnacle of magecraft. Ayrik exaggerated the blindness part. It took only less than a year for Aoth to adjust to his new vision.
Aoth doesn't do all the fighting that involves magic. That's why he's got Jhesri and other wizards and clerics. So some opportunities where he could learn and utilize magic might not have been presented to him. He couldn't be in all places at the same time. Aoth is a fine commander, a brilliant tactician, and a good enough wizard. But to eyes of Szass Tam and the zulkirs who've spent centuries perfecting their craft, he's just an ant (with a stick). |
| Dennis |
Posted - 26 Dec 2011 : 04:04:30
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It's possible though that he'd grow more in magical strength in Rashemen (as Liriel did). We'll have to wait and see The Masked Witches to find out.
Btw, jordanz, it's Fezim, not Fezrim.
That's what I wrote see 
You must have cast an edit spell. |
| jordanz |
Posted - 26 Dec 2011 : 04:00:16
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It's possible though that he'd grow more in magical strength in Rashemen (as Liriel did). We'll have to wait and see The Masked Witches to find out.
Btw, jordanz, it's Fezim, not Fezrim.
That's what I wrote see |
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