| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dennis |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 12:39:07
If you were to choose an evil Chosen of Mystra, who would it be? And most importantly, why? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 04 Feb 2013 : 21:26:36
Sirrion (xvim) was claiming something about evil from the realmspace leaking into krynnspace. I can't remember why this encouraged lathander to try to remake tyche though. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 04 Feb 2013 : 20:39:43
That explanation is far more consistent than my fuzzy recollection, Wooly Bluepert. Still not sure how Xvim is involved, but question already answered and I'll just read the novel again.
Could it be argued that, due to his passionate infatuation (or at least obsession) with Tyche, Lathander was being influenced by Sune? It seems a tough call to me, unless the gods are required to be dispassionate emotionless creatures.
I wholeheartedly agree that we could use more of this cross-pantheon interaction. Although I suppose it must be handled most delicately unless Wizbro wants to keep putting Ao back on stage. But seriously, even blasting craters in the landscape through a cold war between two godly pantheons would be far more exciting than just "sacrificing" Mystra every time the world needs a reformat. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Feb 2013 : 20:08:30
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Hmm, I'd thought kender simply couldn't be seen by some of the Krynnish pantheon because of the whole complicated mess about their "unnatural" origins and the Gray Gem and time travelling. I can't really recall the specifics, and I also can't quite grasp how godlike beings with godlike superintelligence wouldn't notice an entire "invisible" race interacting with other things they can perceive - but that's neither here nor there.
I do recall that this Krynn god (Sirrion is interesting ... I'd somehow thought Lunitari or Hiddukel, or really any kind of opportunistic mischief-liar god) was able to "blind" Lathander's ability to see certain events clearly. Although it seems now that this might have been more of an emotional manipulation, given that Lathander seemed uncharacteristically passionate, I'd have to re-read the novel to clarify.
I don't recall anything at all about Iyachtu-Xvim being involved in the novel. But it's been a while. And why would his masquerade be brought down by an inapplicable vulnerability to kender he'd know nothing about?
Ah, okay.
It's not that all kender are invisible to deities -- Emilo was rendered invisible to anyone not native to Krynn, until he revealed himself. Paladine did this to determine whether or not it was Sirrion who was working with Lathander. Emilo eventually proved it wasn't, since "Sirrion" couldn't see him.
That was the only interference/interference from a non-Realms deity. Lathander was preventing other Realms deities from seeing what he was doing in a small portion of his own divine realm. The interference with Beshaba and Tymora's powers was caused by manipulation of power keys devoted to them -- and power keys are connected directly to the deity who issued them. They're like direct conduits to the deity. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 04 Feb 2013 : 19:24:29
Hmm, I'd thought kender simply couldn't be seen by some of the Krynnish pantheon because of the whole complicated mess about their "unnatural" origins and the Gray Gem and time travelling. I can't really recall the specifics, and I also can't quite grasp how godlike beings with godlike superintelligence wouldn't notice an entire "invisible" race interacting with other things they can perceive - but that's neither here nor there.
I do recall that this Krynn god (Sirrion is interesting ... I'd somehow thought Lunitari or Hiddukel, or really any kind of opportunistic mischief-liar god) was able to "blind" Lathander's ability to see certain events clearly. Although it seems now that this might have been more of an emotional manipulation, given that Lathander seemed uncharacteristically passionate, I'd have to re-read the novel to clarify.
I don't recall anything at all about Iyachtu-Xvim being involved in the novel. But it's been a while. And why would his masquerade be brought down by an inapplicable vulnerability to kender he'd know nothing about? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Feb 2013 : 16:30:26
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
[quote][size=1]Dennis[/
It's also interesting to note that an interloping Krynnish deity (can't remember which one) in [i]Tymora's Luck was able to do so as well. Not really sure how that works.
***SPOILER***
I believe that the god was Sirrion and he was unmasked as actually being Iyachtu Xvim posing as Sirrion. No wonder Paladine was worried.
I did like the cross-pantheon thing though, I would like to see a bit more of that.
I think he may have been referring to the way Paladine had Emilo hidden from sight -- even deities didn't see him. |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 04 Feb 2013 : 15:47:02
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
[quote][size=1]Dennis[/
It's also interesting to note that an interloping Krynnish deity (can't remember which one) in [i]Tymora's Luck was able to do so as well. Not really sure how that works.
***SPOILER***
I believe that the god was Sirrion and he was unmasked as actually being Iyachtu Xvim posing as Sirrion. No wonder Paladine was worried.
I did like the cross-pantheon thing though, I would like to see a bit more of that. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 04 Feb 2013 : 07:18:18
quote:
Dennis
Do the greater gods have the power to prevent lesser deities from hearing their faithful's prayers? Does Ao allow such anomaly?
quote:
The Masked Mage
The answer is absolutely not.
As for Mystra interfering with Cyric, she was not stopping him from hearing the prayers or answering them. She simply cut off their ability to use magic. And yes, she has been forbidden to do so again.
Well, that is true in the context of a deities using divine power and manifesting divine will. No deity has a supernatural power (or vulnerability) which can sever another power's divine sustenance, they probably can't even perceive, comprehend, or touch faith which isn't attuned to their own. Although maybe in a few rare cases they can act directly vs another power, such as when two gods of war battle for possession of the same portfolio and believers, or when a greater power acts to limit a lesser servant or aspect of itself (Mystra might have such power over Azuth).
Ao has demonstrated the ability to strip the entire Faerūnian pantheon of their powers (causing the Avatar Crisis). He is of course a higher order being who transcends mere godhood.
It is interesting to note that mortals can have the ability to interfere with a god's divine power. Karsus was a fine example. Finder was another. Kelemvor might also qualify. I think Szass Tam has gotten away with this as well. Characters like Larloch conceivably have sufficient power. I would discount the various Chosen/Exarch people like Elminster/Khelben/Simbul, Rivalen/Erevis, etc, because they're not really mortals, they're quasi-deity sorts.
It's also interesting to note that an interloping Krynnish deity (can't remember which one) in Tymora's Luck was able to do so as well. Not really sure how that works.
But gods can certainly attack the body of faith in other ways. Most often by having their worldly priesthood and followers oppose the worldly agents of another god. Bane's soldiers impose tyrannical "conversion" onto other faiths every day, Malar's priests destroy druids on sight, Shar's priests use any method they can to obstruct every other faith. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 04 Feb 2013 : 01:44:38
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
OT time. I don't want to post this as another thread, 'cause I think it doesn't need an in-depth discussion... Do the greater gods have the power to prevent lesser deities from hearing their faithful's prayers? Does Ao allow such anomaly?
The answer is absolutely not.
As for Mystra interfering with Cyric, she was not stopping him from hearing the prayers or answering them. She simply cut off their ability to use magic. And yes, she has been forbidden to do so again. |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 03 Feb 2013 : 23:54:05
I can look it up the proof if you need but I do know that the Magister is mostly Azuth's responsibility. "Mystra has her Chosen, Azuth has the Magister" is a quote from some source (likely from The Magister accessory). Of course, this doesn't change the fact that Mystra actually makes the decision of who becomes Magister, demotes said Magister if necessary, etc. I'm just pointing out that Azuth has primary responsibility over the Magister's work. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 18:13:53
FOR13: Secrets of the Magister does not specify. But it strongly suggests Mystra appoints Magisters:quote:
... Most civilized Faerūnians know that the Magister is some sort of specially anointed (by Mystra, the goddess of magic) wizard ...
... Briefly, the Magister is the personal champion of Mystra ...
... responsibilities [of Magisters] vary over time, and are a private matter between Mystra, Azuth, and the incumbent Magister ...
... Some [Magisters] love the powers of the office, and some misuse them; Mystra sees to it that the latter do not last long ...
Of course Azuth was the First Magister, and Azuth unswervingly serves Mystra's will in all things so the point is somewhat academic. Mystra can promote or demote Magisters as she deems necessary. (Although, for the mortal wizard, it's a one-way trip.)
As I mentioned earlier, Mystra's Chosen tend to be meddling Goody Two-Shoes, while Mystra's Magisters have been a mix of Good, Neutral, and Evil sorts. Mystra doesn't care if they abuse the power (magic has no alignment), as long as they don't abuse the office (ignore whatever "mission" she's decreed). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 17:56:53
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I'm not sure about Mystra's Chosen (although they do seem like a very happy hippy coven of like-minded meddlers).
But Mystra's Magisters are selected primarily for their magical aptitude. How they use their magic doesn't especially concern Mystra as long as they keep on wandering the land and conspicuously using magic - some have been great scholar and compassionate tutors inspired to share the Art, others have tyrannically blasted everything in range and used Mystra's boon for nothing more than the magical power they needed to destroy their obstacles and enemies. If Mystra had any preferences then she hid them well, seeming to choose Magisters at a whim without any regard to what what they would do or what others had done.
Clarification here.... weren't the magisters actually chosen by Azuth? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 14:06:08
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Has it ever actually been said that it is the duty of ALL the Chosen to spread magic?
Yes. At least Elminster said so, quite a few times, in fact. |
| Euranna |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 00:57:54
My vote would be for Halaster. :) I love the Mad Mage. And he seems to want to honor Mystra. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 00:51:11
I'm not sure about Mystra's Chosen (although they do seem like a very happy hippy coven of like-minded meddlers).
But Mystra's Magisters are selected primarily for their magical aptitude. How they use their magic doesn't especially concern Mystra as long as they keep on wandering the land and conspicuously using magic - some have been great scholar and compassionate tutors inspired to share the Art, others have tyrannically blasted everything in range and used Mystra's boon for nothing more than the magical power they needed to destroy their obstacles and enemies. If Mystra had any preferences then she hid them well, seeming to choose Magisters at a whim without any regard to what what they would do or what others had done. |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 00:28:07
quote:
Mystryl and Mystra-1 were Lawful Neutral, which can essentially be considered her "base" state for eons. However, Mystra-2 was Neutral Good by stats in Forgotten Realms Adventures, the main FR guidebook for 2nd edition; this was supported by her behavior immediately following the Time of Troubles.
Actually, the Netheril boxed set states that Mystryl was CN. Her second incarnation (renamed Mystra) was LN. Midnight was also LN in the modules but became NG (apparently due to the influence of the Chosen) upon her apotheosis.
As for good candidates for evil Chosen:
Pre-4e Tam is a great choice. He always struck me as a coldly-calculating evil type who was 'beyond' trifling expressions of that evil (I dont see him kicking puppies).
Halaster is a somewhat reasonable choice as well...if you can get beyond the madness. I cant recall where, but he was once described as sort of a 'gentleman' who disdained rudeness. A trait that makes him more interesting, IMO.
Sadly, the Realms is absent a really good example of an evil female wizard (I think there is one that belongs to the Twisted Rune but I dont know enough about her). The Shadowsil might have made a good choice but she died didn't she? I seem to recall a scene where El was crying over her body.
Sort of off-topic (but applicable to the conversation I think)...I prefer evil characters with redeeming qualities (such as Raistlin from Dragonlance having a sense of honor and always repaying his debts or Turin Deathstalker from Gheyhawk who loves and protects children). Evil is too boring when they neatly fit into the category and never feel love or other 'positive' emotions. In fact, loving someone is a great catalyst for succumbing to evil. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 22:39:32
Has it ever actually been said that it is the duty of ALL the Chosen to spread magic? In my mind, Mystra would have different chosen with different abilities have different responsibilities. I think one duty might be to teach fear. Part of the allure of magic is its power, and the fear it instills. Fear of a greater power drives lesser mages to strive ever harder to surpass that power, that they need not be afraid, thus furthering magic.
Or perhaps maybe this evil chosen is just a kick ass spell researcher, inventing spell after spell, and all he has to do to maintain her favor is give copies of every new spell he makes to her clergy, who can then see that the spell is preserved and eventually distributed.
Also, I'd say that being evil certainly does not preclude being a God's servant. You want to talk about a pragmatic approach to power? How about I'll serve you for more of it, please, Lady Mystra. This is basically the arrangement between every evil power and their servants.
In Sammaster, I'd say we have the answer to the question about whether she can force someone to be her Chosen. He consciously turned his back on her and she had to let him go his own way. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 02:53:36
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
OT time. I don't want to post this as another thread, 'cause I think it doesn't need an in-depth discussion... Do the greater gods have the power to prevent lesser deities from hearing their faithful's prayers? Does Ao allow such anomaly?
I'd be surprised if they could. Mystra has the power to do so (she did it on Cyric) by cutting him off from the Weave, but she has been forbidden to do so again on anyone.
Oh! Thanks for reminding me. She also did it to the Storm God in Crucible, if I recall it right. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 00:56:56
Her alignment has almost no effect for the average mage. For most worshippers she's much as she was in the pre-Godswar millennia when she was LN. She doesn't withhold magic because you're evil. She doesn't pursue good ends other than the dispersal and furthering of the Art. Evil wizards like Manshoon of the Zhentarim actively worship her much as they did before. Her nominal alignment is for most purposes transparent and irrelevant.
Now, through whatever process, there's an actively good, constantly interfering Mystra which people gossip about on messageboards through Chinese whispers. But she isn't the Mystra of Realmslore.
Besides, I think it partly indicates the difficulty of fitting Mystra into a D&D alignment. The LNity of the previous Mystra was also much unlike that of a mortal, and less central than the alignment of a morally oriented god like Tymora or Bane. Compare this in the Cyclopedia: "The goddess of magic is a manifestation of the Cosmic Balance. which appears to right great inequalities or going-awry in the magical balance of things."
Obviously, Midnight's ascension wasn't Ed's idea, and his development of the post-Godswar Mystra is one of many cases where he's worked to smooth over and make something positive out of things like Doug Niles's Moonshaes, Dale Henson's Netheril, Caladnei and the Shadow Weave. |
| Therise |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 00:10:56
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So it's rigid and inflexible to think that if there is nothing in print that even implies that something is the case, then there's no reason to assume it is? If that's rigid and inflexible, then I'd hate to see a definition for defending that which actually is in print...
But either way, I'm out of this discussion.
Did you miss the whole part where I mentioned that Mystra was clearly labeled as neutral good in both 2E and 3E? It's printed, in canon sourcebooks. Alignment gives a general indication of what a PC, NPC, or other character (such as Mystra) is likely to do. Not a perfect one, but it does reflect general tendencies. Being neutral good means she's strongly likely to do good things with respect to her mission/portfolio: magic; the neutrality in "neutral good" relates to the law/chaos axis. You're holding on to the old "lawful neutral" alignment of Mystryl when you think she's neutral with respect to magic.
If such were not the case, then why would Amaunator and Lathander and similar deities who promote goodness be labeled as "good" instead of "neutral"?
So yes, you're being stubborn and inflexible when you suggest that the reader is somehow at fault for misjudging Mystra's alignment in 2E and 3E. They're reading what's in print, and making a natural conclusion. It would be a totally different story if they'd never put "neutral good" for Mystra in both of those editions' sourcebooks and had left it blank, but they didn't.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 23:31:21
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Dude. I understand everything you're saying. However, I'm trying to point out that you're breaking "Wil Wheaton Rule #1" because you're so freaking stubborn about this.
Anyone, anywhere, with anything, can misperceive just about anything. But this is in print, which pushes people toward conclusions, so give people a little freaking slack.
Not familiar with that rule.
I've seen the same stuff in print, and I was not pushed towards those conclusions. No in-game effect has ever been mentioned, so how people could conclude that something offstage is a problem is beyond me.
Hey, you're totally allowed to hold on to a rigid and inflexible perspective. Just trying to point out that maybe that attitude doesn't serve you very well.
So it's rigid and inflexible to think that if there is nothing in print that even implies that something is the case, then there's no reason to assume it is? If that's rigid and inflexible, then I'd hate to see a definition for defending that which actually is in print...
But either way, I'm out of this discussion. |
| Therise |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 23:10:25
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Dude. I understand everything you're saying. However, I'm trying to point out that you're breaking "Wil Wheaton Rule #1" because you're so freaking stubborn about this.
Anyone, anywhere, with anything, can misperceive just about anything. But this is in print, which pushes people toward conclusions, so give people a little freaking slack.
Not familiar with that rule.
I've seen the same stuff in print, and I was not pushed towards those conclusions. No in-game effect has ever been mentioned, so how people could conclude that something offstage is a problem is beyond me.
Hey, you're totally allowed to hold on to a rigid and inflexible perspective. Just trying to point out that maybe that attitude doesn't serve you very well.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 22:19:10
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Dude. I understand everything you're saying. However, I'm trying to point out that you're breaking "Wil Wheaton Rule #1" because you're so freaking stubborn about this.
Anyone, anywhere, with anything, can misperceive just about anything. But this is in print, which pushes people toward conclusions, so give people a little freaking slack.
Not familiar with that rule.
I've seen the same stuff in print, and I was not pushed towards those conclusions. No in-game effect has ever been mentioned, so how people could conclude that something offstage is a problem is beyond me. |
| Therise |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 21:48:58
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Where is it strongly suggested that Mystra's alignment had any effect on her stewardship of magic? In what sourcebook is it even implied?
Are you even trying to understand my point, or is it more important to "win" an argument?
You and I both know Ed's views on the gods and their alignments, and about alignment issues generally. But it's a little disingenuous to tell people less familiar with those intricacies that it's their problem when the sourcebooks clearly have strong implications.
I'm wondering if you're understanding the point I'm making: Mystra's alignment has never had an in-game effect. Never. Her favoring good spellslingers and hampering evil ones was a plot point in a book, and was never reflected in any sourcebook. With regards to how she deals with magic, in terms of the rules, Mystra has always been neutral.
So, with regards to the setting, Mystra's good alignment has never been a factor. Saying it has been is a misperception, because it's ignoring the fact that it's never even been paid attention to outside of a single novel.
Besides, people misperceive what's in the rulebooks all the time -- just look at how poorly some people understand alignment in general. A lot of people think CN means be evil one day and good the next, and a lot of people think CE = murdering psychopath. It's explicitly stated otherwise in alignment descriptions, but that misperception remains.
Dude. I understand everything you're saying. However, I'm trying to point out that you're breaking "Wil Wheaton Rule #1" because you're so freaking stubborn about this.
Anyone, anywhere, with anything, can misperceive just about anything. But this is in print, which pushes people toward conclusions, so give people a little freaking slack.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 21:24:41
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Where is it strongly suggested that Mystra's alignment had any effect on her stewardship of magic? In what sourcebook is it even implied?
Are you even trying to understand my point, or is it more important to "win" an argument?
You and I both know Ed's views on the gods and their alignments, and about alignment issues generally. But it's a little disingenuous to tell people less familiar with those intricacies that it's their problem when the sourcebooks clearly have strong implications.
I'm wondering if you're understanding the point I'm making: Mystra's alignment has never had an in-game effect. Never. Her favoring good spellslingers and hampering evil ones was a plot point in a book, and was never reflected in any sourcebook. With regards to how she deals with magic, in terms of the rules, Mystra has always been neutral.
So, with regards to the setting, Mystra's good alignment has never been a factor. Saying it has been is a misperception, because it's ignoring the fact that it's never even been paid attention to outside of a single novel.
Besides, people misperceive what's in the rulebooks all the time -- just look at how poorly some people understand alignment in general. A lot of people think CN means be evil one day and good the next, and a lot of people think CE = murdering psychopath. It's explicitly stated otherwise in alignment descriptions, but that misperception remains. |
| Therise |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 20:54:56
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Where is it strongly suggested that Mystra's alignment had any effect on her stewardship of magic? In what sourcebook is it even implied?
Are you even trying to understand my point, or is it more important to "win" an argument?
You and I both know Ed's views on the gods and their alignments, and about alignment issues generally. But it's a little disingenuous to tell people less familiar with those intricacies that it's their problem when the sourcebooks clearly have strong implications.
|
| Kilvan |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 20:31:44
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
OT time. I don't want to post this as another thread, 'cause I think it doesn't need an in-depth discussion... Do the greater gods have the power to prevent lesser deities from hearing their faithful's prayers? Does Ao allow such anomaly?
I'd be surprised if they could. Mystra has the power to do so (she did it on Cyric) by cutting him off from the Weave, but she has been forbidden to do so again on anyone. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 20:05:00
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's a misconception because her good alignment has only been a factor in her stewardship of magic in that one novel. Yes, she's good. But she is neutral with regards to magic... How she feels is not always the same as how she acts. It's like being in customer service: you're smiling and polite to your customers, but you're really wanting to throw large, heavy objects at them.
That's the problem, though. Misconception is the wrong term. She's NG in sourcebooks, and she was portrayed as good in that novel. Since then, we haven't seen her balanced approach in action. So to say that it's a misconception or misperception isn't really fair to people who are reading the sourcebooks when there isn't much evidence to support her definite return to the old LN attitude re: magic.
Again, I'm not saying you're wrong, but I am saying that it's unfair to tell people they're having a misconception when the sourcebooks strongly suggest otherwise. Misprint, or the lack of 3E errata, is more appropriate and doesn't blame the reader for some kind of personal misunderstanding on their part.
Where is it strongly suggested that Mystra's alignment had any effect on her stewardship of magic? In what sourcebook is it even implied? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 19:40:26
OT time. I don't want to post this as another thread, 'cause I think it doesn't need an in-depth discussion... Do the greater gods have the power to prevent lesser deities from hearing their faithful's prayers? Does Ao allow such anomaly? |
| Therise |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 19:22:01
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's a misconception because her good alignment has only been a factor in her stewardship of magic in that one novel. Yes, she's good. But she is neutral with regards to magic... How she feels is not always the same as how she acts. It's like being in customer service: you're smiling and polite to your customers, but you're really wanting to throw large, heavy objects at them.
That's the problem, though. Misconception is the wrong term. She's NG in sourcebooks, and she was portrayed as good in that novel. Since then, we haven't seen her balanced approach in action. So to say that it's a misconception or misperception isn't really fair to people who are reading the sourcebooks when there isn't much evidence to support her definite return to the old LN attitude re: magic.
Again, I'm not saying you're wrong, but I am saying that it's unfair to tell people they're having a misconception when the sourcebooks strongly suggest otherwise. Misprint, or the lack of 3E errata, is more appropriate and doesn't blame the reader for some kind of personal misunderstanding on their part.
|
| Dennis |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 19:02:41
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's a misconception because her good alignment has only been a factor in her stewardship of magic in that one novel. Yes, she's good. But she is neutral with regards to magic... How she feels is not always the same as how she acts. It's like being in customer service: you're smiling and polite to your customers, but you're really wanting to throw large, heavy objects at them.
What novel? |
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