| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Imp |
Posted - 27 Aug 2011 : 20:22:57
On another board I saw a discussion about the Realms. One poster was saying that 4th Ed is not only a wholly different gaming system, but also that The Realms aren't THE Realms anymore, because they changed/retconed too much.
All the retcons and changes they made to accommodate new rules are unfortunate and I don't like them, but overall I think those are still the Realms, just in future.
Discuss. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Old Man Harpell |
Posted - 21 Sep 2011 : 01:29:23
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
It might be more accurate to say that this group of designers, not Wizbro specifically, won't change/fix/redact the 4E redesign. Parent companies generally are solely interested in what generates income, not the smaller details of content within a given product. Sure, they'll have limits on how much you'd go beyond PG-13, or something like that, but otherwise it's primarily about cash flow and keeping product lines up that generate more revenue than other product lines.
At the risk of being controversial, what is it specifically about the new Neverwinter Campaign Guide that makes things "better" for the 4E Realms? I've read it through twice and I'd agree that it was superior to the 4E FRCG for sure, but it contains spellplague areas, plaguechanged monsters, pretty much all of the elements seen in the 4E FRCG. Granted, it does have a lot of rules-related crunchy stuff as well, but I can't say that anything crunchy has ever been a selling point for me in any edition. What is it about this supplement that "makes things better"?
No controversy in asking a fair question.
For starters, we aren't going to get away from the Sellplague elements - it's irritating, yes, but in most cases, they're tolerable, if not exactly welcome. The NCS brings the campaign down to the perfect level where the GM is the one to make decisions about such things - I would be disinclined to allow a spellscarred harbinger, for example (and if there are spellscar conversions for Pathfinder, I have yet to see them - though admittedly, I have yet to develop a reason to go searching).
Two points on how it makes it 'better'. One, the setting deliberately (in my opinion) avoids micro-focusing on elements that have anything to do with the Sellplague. Sure, there's Helm's Hold and so forth, but it neatly sidelines the whole Sellplague issue, with absolutely nothing revolving on employing any elements of it. By making it the residence of the Aboleth's servants, the entire thing can be chalked up to weird Lovecraftian influences, and the DM can edit out the Sellplague stuff as they see fit. All this can be done without sacrificing continuity.
Secondly, the timeline and history of the Neverwinter region are little different than that of the rest of the Sword Coast. The city itself actually weathered the Sellplague about as well as the rest of the region - it was an exploding volcano that was the reason the city was ruined, with the trapped primordial easily substituted for any Sellplague excuses. The main focus is (again, in my opinion) presenting a region of devastation that doesn't leave a bitter Halruaa-flavored taste in one's mouth, while at the same time allowing players an opportunity to not only avoid much of the worst elements of the 4th-edition revamp, but to allow them to make a difference in one of the most easily popular locations in the Sword Coast, if not the Realms, while subtly de-emphasizing the 'Points of Light' nonsense (once again, in my opinion).
It has been said by others here, and I agree, that the issue is not the 'crunch', or even the Sellplague, really (very sloppy though the implementation was). It's the 100-year time jump that's got most people's knickers in a knot, with no visible way to (mechanically) 'fix' what was done. The Neverwinter Campaign Setting has, at least, presented us with a toolbox to start repairs, and get that part of the Sword Coast 'functional'. The damage to other places (such as Halruaa) are going to require way, way more than a few Neverwinter-style tools, however - if it's even possible.
The impression I got is that the writers took pains to present it in just this fashion. Sure, they have to give a nod to the Sellplague as a part of it, but in this instance, it's like the sprig of parsley next to the steak and baked potato - easily ignored after the rest is consumed.
- OMH |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 19:35:57
Lets just say the 'New Realms' are NOT the ones I grew to love.
Technically, still The Realms, but emotionally, not so much. 
Back when 4eFR first came out, I think someone here at the 'Keep said it best: Its like the difference between a real Palace, and some Disney version. It looks all shiny and cool from the outside, but there isn't much 'behind the curtain'. In the great ocean of RPG settings, alas, FR has been sucked into the shallow end.
IMHO, of course. Your mileage may vary.
And BTW, I have to - in all honesty - admit that much of the 4eFR setting is more useful to me as a DM then the original was. However, I fell in love with the story that was the Forgotten Realms, much more then the backdrop. As far as RPG campaigns go, the new setting is just as good as most others (in other words, it gets the job done, with few bells and whistles). |
| Therise |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 18:09:08
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
Pretty much. More to the point, Wizbro is not going to undo what they've done. Could the freelancers, if given free reign, repair the damage? I'm betting they could. But I know it isn't going to happen. The in-house folks likely have stubborn pride driving some their decisions, even if some of them now realize that trying to shoehorn the Realms into the whole 'Points of Light' thing (when Eberron and Dark Sun would have served that function admirably) was a colossal mistake.
See's example of the Traveller system is well-taken. If they'd stopped at MegaTraveller, and then somehow managed to 'fix' the Rebellion damage that 'shattered the Imperium' in a way that was a little more low-key and less time-spanning, there would have been no need for a Traveller: The New Era. The game system wasn't half bad...but the TNE time jump and the storyline sucked.
This is pretty much why Wizbro is the one that will have to decide whether to leave the majority of this awesome world to rot with the unnecessary changes that were made, or if they will produce more worthy material along the lines of the NCS and make it into something resembling the Realms we all know and love.
I am hoping for the latter - the NCS is precisely the sort of product that says someone is listening, and are willing to hire the talent that understands the Realms. And who knows? Maybe one day, just as we saw Marc Miller's Traveller, we'll get to see, as I know I've said, Ed Greenwood's Forgotten Realms.
Hey - a guy can dream, right?
- OMH
It might be more accurate to say that this group of designers, not Wizbro specifically, won't change/fix/redact the 4E redesign. Parent companies generally are solely interested in what generates income, not the smaller details of content within a given product. Sure, they'll have limits on how much you'd go beyond PG-13, or something like that, but otherwise it's primarily about cash flow and keeping product lines up that generate more revenue than other product lines.
At the risk of being controversial, what is it specifically about the new Neverwinter Campaign Guide that makes things "better" for the 4E Realms? I've read it through twice and I'd agree that it was superior to the 4E FRCG for sure, but it contains spellplague areas, plaguechanged monsters, pretty much all of the elements seen in the 4E FRCG. Granted, it does have a lot of rules-related crunchy stuff as well, but I can't say that anything crunchy has ever been a selling point for me in any edition. What is it about this supplement that "makes things better"?
|
| Old Man Harpell |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 12:31:05
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by see
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpelland pester Wizbro to make the repairs they need to.
I'm not going to pester them to make the necessary repairs (resetting the setting changes the way GURPS Traveller reset the changes of MegaTraveller and TNE). They have the perfect right to do whatever they want with their IP. I'm just not going to give Hasbro any of my money.
Along the same lines, there are quite a lot of people who like what happened to the Realms and prefer it the way it is now and make changes according to their own home-campaigns. For better or worse, what WotC published is Canon but no one needs to pay attention to that (just like before). I'm all for re-structuring the Realms and helping people flesh out their own versions of it, but "official" publications need to support what's being done currently and I think asking Wizbro to undo the changes they made is just a bit unecessary IMO.
Pretty much. More to the point, Wizbro is not going to undo what they've done. Could the freelancers, if given free reign, repair the damage? I'm betting they could. But I know it isn't going to happen. The in-house folks likely have stubborn pride driving some their decisions, even if some of them now realize that trying to shoehorn the Realms into the whole 'Points of Light' thing (when Eberron and Dark Sun would have served that function admirably) was a colossal mistake.
See's example of the Traveller system is well-taken. If they'd stopped at MegaTraveller, and then somehow managed to 'fix' the Rebellion damage that 'shattered the Imperium' in a way that was a little more low-key and less time-spanning, there would have been no need for a Traveller: The New Era. The game system wasn't half bad...but the TNE time jump and the storyline sucked.
This is pretty much why Wizbro is the one that will have to decide whether to leave the majority of this awesome world to rot with the unnecessary changes that were made, or if they will produce more worthy material along the lines of the NCS and make it into something resembling the Realms we all know and love.
I am hoping for the latter - the NCS is precisely the sort of product that says someone is listening, and are willing to hire the talent that understands the Realms. And who knows? Maybe one day, just as we saw Marc Miller's Traveller, we'll get to see, as I know I've said, Ed Greenwood's Forgotten Realms.
Hey - a guy can dream, right?
- OMH |
| Diffan |
Posted - 14 Sep 2011 : 21:05:15
quote:
Originally posted by see
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpelland pester Wizbro to make the repairs they need to.
I'm not going to pester them to make the necessary repairs (resetting the setting changes the way GURPS Traveller reset the changes of MegaTraveller and TNE). They have the perfect right to do whatever they want with their IP. I'm just not going to give Hasbro any of my money.
Along the same lines, there are quite a lot of people who like what happened to the Realms and prefer it the way it is now and make changes according to their own home-campaigns. For better or worse, what WotC published is Canon but no one needs to pay attention to that (just like before). I'm all for re-structuring the Realms and helping people flesh out their own versions of it, but "official" publications need to support what's being done currently and I think asking Wizbro to undo the changes they made is just a bit unecessary IMO. |
| see |
Posted - 14 Sep 2011 : 20:06:38
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
But it's what we're stuck with,
Why no, I'm not stuck with any of it. My Realms are simply out-of-print.
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
and now we have to fix it,
No, I don't need to fix anything. Hasbro does, but my Realms continue to exist just fine without them.
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpelland pester Wizbro to make the repairs they need to.
I'm not going to pester them to make the necessary repairs (resetting the setting changes the way GURPS Traveller reset the changes of MegaTraveller and TNE). They have the perfect right to do whatever they want with their IP. I'm just not going to give Hasbro any of my money. |
| Therise |
Posted - 14 Sep 2011 : 19:11:10
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
Yup
We get some Serenity in the form of Kara Tur. Then towards the end of the year is Moonshaes.
Oh very nice. Kara Tur is one of my favorite settings.
|
| Bakra |
Posted - 14 Sep 2011 : 19:03:02
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
Razz, that wouldn't work well at all in a business model. Though, I could see some very small treatments being drafted up that might cover it as teasers. The last sentence you put, however, is definitely possible. Keep your eyes peeled ;)
*coughs* October *coughs*
What's coming in October? Something shiny?
Yup
We get some Serenity in the form of Kara Tur. Then towards the end of the year is Moonshaes.
|
| Bladewind |
Posted - 14 Sep 2011 : 16:40:59
Heh, you already knew I like your work. Now get Shadowbane into proper print and I'll be able to further support you financially!  |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 14 Sep 2011 : 16:22:47
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
I am of mind that the 15th century the 4th edition Realms is set in definitely is the Forgotten Realms. If Ed, Cunningham, De Bie, Salvatore and Kemp (and many others) are willing to write and work in it there are surely some great things headed our way.
I am honored to be so included! Your faith means a great deal to me. 
Cheers |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 14 Sep 2011 : 16:16:23
I am of mind that the 15th century the 4th edition Realms is set in definitely is the Forgotten Realms. If Ed, Cunningham, De Bie, Salvatore and Kemp (and many others) are willing to write and work in it there are surely some great things headed our way.
I am rather fond of the idea of being able to choose what time period I play in; a bit like choosing your prefered era when starting a Star Wars campaign. Do you play during the the Old Republic era, the Clone Wars period, the Rise of the Empire or after the Return of the Jedi? Unfortunately, I prefer 3.5 rules and some 4ed rules prove to be a problem when applying to the 15th century realms.
I'd like to see a middle ground emerge, where all new crunch of the new edition realms has a side section with tips for a conversion to older systems. For example a way to streamline the AED spells into a vancian casting system and vice versa would be very handy. If only the 4e system wasn't as big a leap from previous ones this would be quite intuitive (look at the Star Wars SAGA system).
|
| Ayrik |
Posted - 14 Sep 2011 : 15:56:00
quote:
Old Man Harpell
And while I am currently using the 4th edition Realms (although not 4th Edition D&D), I am doing so with an eye towards 'fixing what Wizbro broke when they decided it needed fixing...when it wasn't broke to begin with'.
I've actually done the opposite; having tried a few months of playing 4E rules/system in a decidedly non-4E Realms setting.
How did that work for you, btw? |
| Therise |
Posted - 14 Sep 2011 : 01:40:58
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
Razz, that wouldn't work well at all in a business model. Though, I could see some very small treatments being drafted up that might cover it as teasers. The last sentence you put, however, is definitely possible. Keep your eyes peeled ;)
*coughs* October *coughs*
What's coming in October? Something shiny?
|
| Seethyr |
Posted - 14 Sep 2011 : 01:29:49
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
The NCS is a really good first step, and if we can keep quality stuff like that coming, maybe we can make it back into something resembling what was rather contemptuously yanked out from under us.
I think it is such good news that the newest product seems to be well-liked. No matter what happens, I will always root for a "comeback" for my favorite setting (even though it never really went away). |
| Old Man Harpell |
Posted - 14 Sep 2011 : 00:49:44
quote:
Originally posted by see
Are they the Realms? I'm not the one to say.
But the current-published Realms aren't my Realms. 3.5 material was already going far enough in directions I disliked I was questioning whether it was worth buying; 4th Edition stuff went even further away setting-wise while the new system mechanics were useless for me.
They are 'the Realms' if you approach it from an official standpoint...Wizbro, in other words. And also in terms of Candlekeep - all editions are supported here, although you'd do worse than Wooly's 'PBJ' analogy, which is the best I've seen to describe how the Realms comes across.
And while I am currently using the 4th edition Realms (although not 4th Edition D&D), I am doing so with an eye towards 'fixing what Wizbro broke when they decided it needed fixing...when it wasn't broke to begin with'.
And I certainly understand the sentiment of 'it isn't my Realms' - it's Wizbro's interpretation of the Realms, which is realities apart from the Realms the rest of us would have chosen. But it's what we're stuck with, and now we have to fix it, and pester Wizbro to make the repairs they need to.
The NCS is a really good first step, and if we can keep quality stuff like that coming, maybe we can make it back into something resembling what was rather contemptuously yanked out from under us. |
| see |
Posted - 14 Sep 2011 : 00:28:37
Are they the Realms? I'm not the one to say.
But the current-published Realms aren't my Realms. 3.5 material was already going far enough in directions I disliked I was questioning whether it was worth buying; 4th Edition stuff went even further away setting-wise while the new system mechanics were useless for me. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 13 Sep 2011 : 22:07:19
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
Bringing this scroll back onto topic. I think the OP's question is odd. I don't look at the Realms in terms of editions. It's been stuck in my head that the actual timeline takes precedence. 1480 DR exists and is indeed the Realms.
I agree 100% |
| Bakra |
Posted - 13 Sep 2011 : 19:03:40
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
Razz, that wouldn't work well at all in a business model. Though, I could see some very small treatments being drafted up that might cover it as teasers. The last sentence you put, however, is definitely possible. Keep your eyes peeled ;)
*coughs* October *coughs* |
| Matt James |
Posted - 12 Sep 2011 : 22:45:01
Razz, that wouldn't work well at all in a business model. Though, I could see some very small treatments being drafted up that might cover it as teasers. The last sentence you put, however, is definitely possible. Keep your eyes peeled ;) |
| Razz |
Posted - 11 Sep 2011 : 06:51:16
What I'm wanting to see is the lifting of NDA on what I call "dead lore". As in, Realms stuff everyone is pretty sure will never be covered and, thus, can't possibly break NDA.
A few examples; official Maztican lore, Kara-Tur, Lantan, Unther, Mulhorand, some deities, etc. I'd point out specifics but it's late and can't think of any at the moment.
Or a series of Dragon articles that detail something from "way back" (pre 4e) and then has snippets of what became of it currently (post-4e). |
| Old Man Harpell |
Posted - 09 Sep 2011 : 07:32:10
Nah, it's all good. |
| Matt James |
Posted - 09 Sep 2011 : 04:43:58
Old Man Harpell, I didn't mean to infer I was speaking to your comments directly :) Sorry if it came off that way. |
| Old Man Harpell |
Posted - 09 Sep 2011 : 04:30:09
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
Bringing this scroll back onto topic. I think the OP's question is odd. I don't look at the Realms in terms of editions. It's been stuck in my head that the actual timeline takes precedence. 1480 DR exists and is indeed the Realms.
I agree...but I would point out that what brought us up to the 1479 DR point does not feel like the Realms, in many respects.
In some places, like the Sword Coast, you pretty much can dismiss the differences as minor. Even the working-over that Neverwinter received has a plausible explanation and background. Name almost any feature north of Amn and west of the Dales, and it's still what we remember.
In my opinion, what happened in Halruaa, for example, is not 'Realms' in flavor. Nor was trashing the Vilhon. Or 'draining the Sea of Fallen Stars'. And I am sure other people have geographical gripes (in fact, I am sure of it).
I have mellowed my criticisms somewhat, but one thing that can never actually be fixed is the 100-year time jump. I would imagine that this, more than anything, is why folks like the OP asked the question to begin with.
A few years after my grandparents passed away, my family had the occasion to visit the farm in British Columbia they had lived in since my mother was a kid (until she left home, yadda yadda). I remember walking through the farmhouse then - all the utilities were shut off, there was no furniture, and the building was empty. Barren, desolate, and cold, if I may say so.
It was the building where I had accumulated a wealth of memories of happiness, security, and love amongst family over more than two decades, including many summers in residence, which I will always have. But it was no longer giving me those feelings - it was like walking through a crypt.
At the risk of sounding dramatic, that was the feeling I first had when cracking open the FRCG for the first time. This was not the Realms I knew and loved - it was similar to walking through that empty Canadian farmhouse.
Since then, I have been able to do with the Realms what I cannot with the places of my childhood - start fixing what I view as flawed and damaged, and outright avoiding what I cannot (i.e. I will never, ever have my campaign leave the Sword Coast, unless it is to visit the Moonshaes - which I can accept the changes of - or Returned Abeir).
My example is a bit less cheerful than Wooly's 'peanut butter and jelly', but no less applicable, I think.
Edit: Ayrik - don't think for a minute that I haven't been tempted to do just that.  |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 09 Sep 2011 : 04:18:17
I'll happily suggest that if your players would view a healing surge as a bit of a redundant overkill then you simply need to damage them a little more.  |
| Old Man Harpell |
Posted - 09 Sep 2011 : 04:01:40
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
I just can't say the Surge system is any worse than carrying a bag of wands ;) I think the original detractors of the edition change found a sore spot and jumped on it. It persists today.
Well, to be fair, I DID say I was a control freak. I can maintain some control over that bag of wands.  And I'm guessing that's it, to a large extent. Plus, I am truthful when I say it seems like a pen-and-paper version of World of Warcraft in the manner the mechanics play out. Probably just me, I realize. |
| Matt James |
Posted - 09 Sep 2011 : 03:47:12
Bringing this scroll back onto topic. I think the OP's question is odd. I don't look at the Realms in terms of editions. It's been stuck in my head that the actual timeline takes precedence. 1480 DR exists and is indeed the Realms. |
| Matt James |
Posted - 09 Sep 2011 : 03:45:45
I just can't say the Surge system is any worse than carrying a bag of wands ;) I think the original detractors of the edition change found a sore spot and jumped on it. It persists today. |
| Old Man Harpell |
Posted - 09 Sep 2011 : 01:24:03
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
What I like about the mechanic is that it allows the party's cleric type to actually participate in the action, rather than simply setting himself up as a first aid station full of nothing but healing spells. Each member of the party is self-reliant enough to keep muddling through the mire without strictly requiring medical backup unless things get nasty indeed.
Although this rules mechanic might be new (and a little harder to explain in-game) to D&D it's nothing new to RPGs in general. FASA's Earthdawn RPG is the first game title I know of which employs this logical construct, it even established the now-common "healing surge" and "wounding" terminology which was adopted into 4E and other games.
I admittedly did not play Earthdawn (although I have a couple of the books).
I have known my players to set their strategy up to the point where a Healing Surge would be overkill...and I suppose that is the fault of the (three) DM types in our group. Then the players receive this extra mechanic that lets them plow through content without actually needing a healer (as was evinced the time we ran through the system) in such a manner that attempting to properly utilize said mechanic comes off as an attempt to squish them like insects.
I am not saying that is what the designers intended. But I am saying that is what is happening, at least with the slick creativity that is the group I play with. They do awesomely well with Pathfinder, so I'll not worry about making a switch, at least not at this point. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 08 Sep 2011 : 20:17:39
What I like about the mechanic is that it allows the party's cleric type to actually participate in the action, rather than simply setting himself up as a first aid station full of nothing but healing spells. Each member of the party is self-reliant enough to keep muddling through the mire without strictly requiring medical backup unless things get nasty indeed.
Although this rules mechanic might be new (and a little harder to explain in-game) to D&D it's nothing new to RPGs in general. FASA's Earthdawn RPG is the first game title I know of which employs this logical construct, it even established the now-common "healing surge" and "wounding" terminology which was adopted into 4E and other games. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 08 Sep 2011 : 18:03:08
Not to derail the topic further into the 4e discussion, but a thought on the healing surges issue: The main reason I like healing surges is because it allows the game to keep functioning. In 3.5 (and it was even worse in earlier editions), you had basically one fight and had to rest to replenish those hit points. Then one fight, and have to rest. Sometimes you'd have a string of small fights, but you'd have to rest ultimately. And you'd have to rest a LONG time. It would help to have a cleric, of course, but even so you'd spend a couple days of your cleric casting healing spells, then rememorizing spells, then healing again, etc. And it really put a drag on play with some frequency.
Now this isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I have been at many, many tables where the game gets really bogged down while the cleric burns his cool divine spells in order to heal everyone else.
Healing surges are a way to keep the game moving. Mechanically, they are a measure of roughly how many encounters you can do, and the baseline assumption is 4-5. This is basically a whole adventure without having to do a long rest, and then when you do, you can get back into the action without taking a week sabbatical.
Also, I have never thought of hit points as a "life meter" or anything like that. To me, they're a measure of fatigue and endurance/personal drive. When your hit points go down, you're getting tired and clumsy, making it more likely for you to get hurt by an attack. When you get bloodied, it means an attack has broken your defenses and actually hurt you. In this paradigm, a second wind is indicative of exactly what the book says: you catch your breath, focus on the battle, and fight defensively for a moment. It's not a "self-heal," but a refocusing--which everyone can and should do in a real-life fight.
Cheers |
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