| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 10:22:58
I was reading stuff on FR wiki, about the cosmology of the realms and I got confused.
1) The prime material plane; is that Toril as a planet?
2) When AO sundered the Abeir-Toril into Abeir and Toril did he create another plane or and entire new planet? Or did he move a piece of the continent of Fearun?
3) Is the crystal sphere, wherein Toril lies like a solar system, a galaxy or a univers?
4) If you kept climbing in altitude from Waterdeep would you get into space where other planets excist (like in our space) or would you hit the bouderies of the material plane?
5) Do one have to travel between planets or universes to get to Oerth and Kryynn?
I know its a lot of questions that might be answered if I took a deep look into all these scrolls, but im asking anyways!
Thanks... |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 12 Jun 2011 : 19:19:34
Not exactly. My belief is that the Material Plane only exists within discrete boundaries circumscribed by crystal spheres. The Material Plane extends to the shell of the crystal sphere and no further. The shell itself is some kind of transition boundary.
The area outside of crystal spheres is the Shadow Plane. It was established in 3e that the Shadow Plane connects alternate realities and can be used to travel between worlds. You can find support for this in the 3e Manual of the Planes p. 44 & especially p. 62. The Shadow Plane is the void but also the substrate upon which reality attaches itself. Shadow is the Cartesian grid of the multiverse.
Inside the area of a crystal sphere, the Shadow Plane resembles the Shadowfell with which we are more familiar. Outside of crystal spheres, the Shadow Plane looks dark and empty. With no reality to reflect, the Shadow Plane resembles a black void filled with a colorful gas, the interplay of light and dark.
I speculate that the colorful phlogiston gas that permeates the dark void of Shadow between crystal spheres is caused by virtual particles of sheer potentiality emerging spontaneously out of the void, trying to establish reality in a place where nothing exists. Nature abhors a vacuum, and so these virtual particles appear and are swiftly annihilated, the glow of which causes the phlogiston phenomenon.
These virtual particles I surmise are pure ether, but not produced from an ethereal plane. I do not believe that the Ethereal is coterminous with Shadow in the space between crystal spheres. It's not the Ethereal Plane impinging on Shadow; rather, it is raw potential trying to manifest itself. Each particle is the microscopic seed of an ethereal plane, sprouting, trying to establish itself, but finding no reality to nourish it, no soil in which to gain purchase, it dies. A spark cooling to a dead ember.
In D&D, the Ethereal plane is the plane of potential. It is the seminal plane out of which the raw elements form. From the raw elements in turn, reality takes its substance in the shape of a Material Plane.
In the creation myth of Realmspace, Ao did not create the planets or even the sun. Rather, he created the crystal shell of Realmspace which was said to be filled only with a gray mist. This mist I believe was not a material plane, but rather an ethereal plane filled with sheer latent potential. A primordial soup, seething and boiling with inchoate matter craving to exist. The crystal sphere of Realmspace is like a beaker or petri dish into which Ao poured his experiment. (Well, actually, it looks more like a florence flask.)
Over time, the area within the crystal sphere fractured into discrete ethereal, elemental, and material planes in a series of phase transitions, spontaneous symmetry-breaking events where the Ethereal Plane fragmented (or resolved) into distinct, separate elemental planes. And eventually, a nascent material plane formed out of those constituent elements. In the creation myth, Selûne and Shar are said to have formed the celestial bodies from these elements. And Selûne is explicitly said to have created the sun from substance drawn from the Elemental Plane of Fire.
The Astral Plane in turn sublimes out of the Material Plane, created from the collective psyche, soul, or incarnum of the material world. There is some question as to whether sentient life had to evolve before this could happen. I don’t think this is necessarily required. Perhaps the life energy of plants, algae, or even just bacteria was sufficient. According to some animistic beliefs, even rocks and physical objects have souls. So perhaps this was sufficient to create an astral plane. The Astral Plane may have appeared very soon after the Material Plane formed, rheified from the platonic essence of the shapes formed by the newly created matter.
In 4e, while it may appear that the Ethereal no longer exists, I would suggest rather that it is still there, just blended into the Elemental Chaos by the Spellplague event. The Spellplague acted like a Cuisinart, chopping all the elemental planes up and mixing them into each other. Whereas before, the elemental planes were discrete planes floating in the Ethereal; after the plane of Dweomerheart exploded, the elemental planes were all stirred together to the point that the Ethereal Plane was no longer perceptible as a distinct plane. The Elemental Chaos is like a colloid or an emulsion, the Ethereal is the liquid in which the elements are suspended like drops of oil in water.
The Spellplague has rendered the Ethereal useless as a transitive plane. Although, I suspect that spells that used to turn you Ethereal, would now simply bring you to the Elemental Chaos.
You can no longer see from the Ethereal into the Material Plane because the Ethereal Plane is now clouded and obscured by elemental substances. Perhaps even the near and deep Ethereal are all mixed together to an extent that the unique properties of the near ethereal are no longer evident.
It may be that with time, the separate elements will resolve into separate planes again forming distinct elemental, para-elemental, and quasi-elemental planes floating in an ethereal plane as they did before. However, I suspect that such time frames will take more on the scale of eons rather than something that will be happen within mortal life spans.
To some extent the segregation of the elements into distinct planes may be facilitated and accelerated by its inhabitants. Marids and water elementals may consolidate pools of water together to expand their territories and create more comfortable environments for themselves. These pools merge into lakes, lakes into seas, seas into oceans and so on. Likewise efreets and fire elementals consolidate areas of fire and lava, djinns and air elementals filter out the base matter from their pure air and clouds, and so on. Over time, this collective action may slowly and gradually help to reestablish the separate elemental planes once again in timescales somewhat quicker than would take through natural condensation.
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Jun 2011 : 18:36:28
Thank You, both - Thats PRECISELY what I mean. 
If I know how things work (in MY games), then I can figure-out what sort of things occur when unexpected effects are mixed together. This was (in-part) the beauty of 3e - in many ways the systems presented were better able to do this (like template-stacking and 'types').
And really, at the end of the day, my way of looking at Spelljammer and Arcane Space doesn't really change things all that much, at least not for me. Groundlings can still think they are "flying through space", along with many 'spacers', but beings in-the-know (like DMs and gods  ) will know whats really going on.
I believe Gray and I (and correct me if I'm wrong) reasoned that region within the atmosphere of a world is coterminus with the Border Ethereal, the space outside of a planet's atmosphere but within the Crystal Sphere (Arcane Space) is actually the Ethereal, and the space outside of a Crystal Sphere is the 'Deep' Ethereal, which is coterminus with the Plane of Shadows (Shadowfel).
Or something like that.
I rearranged the planer structure in my own HB cosmology, so your my mileage may vary. By saying SJ Helms are simply area-effect planer-shifting devices (with some minor mantle-like powers), they not only function as SJ ships, but other helm-types could operate Astral or Fiend ships (I forget what those are called or which source they are mentioned in).
BTW, I think the Starry Compass mentioned in Rich Baker's book (not sure if it had an earlier canon existence) makes for an excellent Netherease artifact for when they figured-out how to get their normal skyships to operate in Arcane Space. Knowing the Netherease, I think it makes perfect sense that they would have figured out an alternate way of doing what the Mercane do with helms. Just a suggestion, of course - nothing canon.
|
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 11 Jun 2011 : 02:31:57
Gorgonism is an observationally mediated quantum-tunneling effect exhibited by medusae, basilisks, cockatrices, and creatures possessed of a specific neuroanatomy typified by stellate ganglial networks--including certain humans with advanced astrocytomas affecting the cingulate gyrus.
The "gorgon effect" occurs when an observer meets the gaze of a creature so possessed (or afflicted, depending on your point of view.) This mutual observation completes a quantum feedback loop. The loop causes a quantum probability wave resonance that increases exponentially in amplitude which can only collapse after passing a very high potential energy threshold.
The typical outcome of such an event is a symmetry-breaking phase transition involving the outer valence electrons of elements in the p-block group 14 (the carbon group) jumping to the next highest orbital. It is unclear at this time whether a corresponding number of protons is created within the atomic nucleus, or whether the valence electrons are suspended in a "virtual" outer shell. Either way, the energy requirements to fuel such a reaction are astronomical but are thought to be drawn from the vacuum energy of the surrounding quantum foam.
Over 18% of the mass of a human body is made up of carbon. Consequently, the gorgon effect results in nearly a fifth of the observed subject's body mass transmuting into silicon. Additionally, trace amounts of silicon are transmuted into germanium, germanium into tin, and tin into lead, although such amounts are negligible in the human body and generally not noticed by the subject for reasons not the least of which include the subject's subsequent petrefaction.
Experiments are ongoing to investigate whether lead golems can be transmuted into ununquadium (element 114) by means of the gorgon effect; however, results have so far proven disappointing. It is speculated that a golem's immunity to paralysis and mind-affecting spells, or possibly the fundamental nature of their sapience (or lack thereof) may present insurmountable barriers to further progress in this area.
Current thinking among experimental nuclear alchemists holds that the "Lot's Wife effect" involves a similar mechanism resulting in the transmutation of hydrogen into sodium. |
| Saer Cormaeril |
Posted - 10 Jun 2011 : 19:12:30
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
For instance, in my HB world, things like basilisks and medusae do NOT turn things to stone - they have a gaze attack that mesmerizes victims (something similar to the 'flashy thingy' in MIB), and in the case of the basilisk, an enzyme in their bite that speeds up rigor mortise and enhances the effect. I know that's not how it normally works in D&D, but I like my magic (and monsters) to be more like super-science. I need to know precisely HOW the abilities (or spells/magic) work, in order to better judge the outcome of encounters (IMHO). By sticking to RW physics, I have something to base all my decisions on.
Basilisks gaze emits a wave-form which interacts with the cell membranes of living creatures which alters the electrostatic forces associated with calcium and carbon, turning the victim into limestone? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Jun 2011 : 16:51:02
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And one of my earlier points remains, as well -- real world physics is not, in canon, fully in sync with physics in the Realms. Why is that not a problem for you, but the reverse is?
Because canonicaly, the rules within each crystal sphere are different, just as they are are with planes, demi-planes, domains, etc...
I have no problem with that at all. What I have a problem with is D&D defining EVERYTHING between the spheres (which equate to solar systems), which we know to be patently false.
I will concede that if we live in an incredibly large sphere, that it is feasible that phlogiston exists outside of it, but that just doesn't sit well with me. I guess its just a matter of personal preferences. For me, SJ was a mish-mosh of very good ideas sprinkled liberally with really bad ones (like a LOT of the critters). The whole thing felt very rushed to me (and probably was, in response to the excellent SPACE: 1889 that won 'Best Game' the year it came out).
Also, I feel the need to blend RW with fantasy because that is also my preference, and because canonicaly Earth has connections with the D&D universe. I cannot simply except 'its make-believe'; when I game, I try to make thiungs as realistic as possible, even if it is just fantasy.
For instance, in my HB world, things like basilisks and medusae do NOT turn things to stone - they have a gaze attack that mesmerizes victims (something similar to the 'flashy thingy' in MIB), and in the case of the basilisk, an enzyme in their bite that speeds up rigor mortise and enhances the effect. I know that's not how it normally works in D&D, but I like my magic (and monsters) to be more like super-science. I need to know precisely HOW the abilities (or spells/magic) work, in order to better judge the outcome of encounters (IMHO). By sticking to RW physics, I have something to base all my decisions on.
Anyhow, I know that's not how many people view their fantasy, so like I said, its just a matter of personal preferences. I seem to have strayed from the topic quite a bit - my apologies.  |
| The Sage |
Posted - 10 Jun 2011 : 16:07:42
quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I've theorised on ways of connecting the Warp and the Phlogiston. But then, I've also begun tinkering with theories that expand on the similarities between the Astronomicon and the Astral Plane. 
Would you then equate the eldar webways to the shadow plane (you can travel from place to place in it, but only if you know the way)?
Actually, I've already started working on theories that connect Eldar Webways with the Fraal interpretation of Drivespace in the Star*Drive campaign setting.
But the Shadow Plane could work just as well for a fantastical D&D interpretation. |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 10 Jun 2011 : 15:52:21
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I've theorised on ways of connecting the Warp and the Phlogiston. But then, I've also begun tinkering with theories that expand on the similarities between the Astronomicon and the Astral Plane.
Would you then equate the eldar webways to the shadow plane (you can travel from place to place in it, but only if you know the way)? |
| Barastir |
Posted - 10 Jun 2011 : 12:42:27
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
(...) BUT, we know there is NO Phlogiston, because we KNOW what space is composed of - THAT is my problem with it. (...)
In the immensely large crystal sphere theory, space would be Wildspace, the phlogiston would be yet undiscovered.quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
If you fall back on the theory that Earth sits in a cleverly disguised (or immensely large) crystal sphere, then we still have the problem of how a normal spacecraft (from a technological sphere) was flying trough Grayspace, which Expedition to the Barrier Peaks was based upon. A ship from a high-tech sphere shouldn't work within a magical/Spelljamming one. The two types of 'space' are not compatible. (...)
Well, this is a problem if you stick to the statements that physics work differently. Since I choose to make things more compatible, I see no problem. The difference among ships is magic, and SJ space ships and creatures are simply magical, in my setting. But I understand, the problem is the way it is presented.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Spelljamming also doesn't make much sense, as presented, in terms of Planescape/D&D cosmology, because why would any race go through so much trouble to travel through all that space that they can easily avoid?
Well, if you think this way, SJ doesn't make any sense. But I think people - especially non-spellcasters - feel more safe travelling in a ship than through a portal. And if you think teleporting works better when you know your destination, spelljammer takes you to different places physically.
I think the only problem with the planar travel is that ships would be out of phase. It would be a trouble for those few place that use SJ ships as earthly protection (like Evermeet) and about rumors of SJ ship sights (legends of elves leaving their ancient homes flying in the back of giant butterflies, in the North). However, if they could "blink" in the Material Plane, it would be fun - butterfly invisible jet fighters! |
| The Sage |
Posted - 10 Jun 2011 : 01:39:07
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I dunno... I loved Spelljammer, and find it a most viable alternative to planar travel. I'd tweak the rules just a hair, in regards to how helms work, but that would be more of a flavor thing than a mechanical change.
I found SPELLJAMMER to have the most gripping sense of otherworldly-reality... and that's what attracted me most to the setting.
quote:
And it's easy enough to drop a technologically advanced spacecraft into Greyspace. We've got a very strange vessel there already, a portal that can flip ships across time and space, and plenty of room to drop in some other abnormal astronomical feature.
Considering that the limits of the Phlogiston have never been properly defined, the amount of just about ANYTHING you can drop into a SPELLJAMMER campaign, is limited only by the imagination of the DM.
And I think the existing SPELLJAMMER material displayed that aspect of the setting, perfectly.
quote:
In fact, one of my NPC ideas is a Space Marine from the Warhammer 40k -- my idea is that he was on a space hunk that fell into the Warp, and fell back out in D&D space. He was rescued and is now in the Realms, his armor has been magically modified, and he's now a priest of Torm (he sees the Emperor as a servant to Torm).
I've theorised on ways of connecting the Warp and the Phlogiston. But then, I've also begun tinkering with theories that expand on the similarities between the Astronomicon and the Astral Plane.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Jun 2011 : 00:34:09
I dunno... I loved Spelljammer, and find it a most viable alternative to planar travel. I'd tweak the rules just a hair, in regards to how helms work, but that would be more of a flavor thing than a mechanical change.
And it's easy enough to drop a technologically advanced spacecraft into Greyspace. We've got a very strange vessel there already, a portal that can flip ships across time and space, and plenty of room to drop in some other abnormal astronomical feature.
In fact, one of my NPC ideas is a Space Marine from the Warhammer 40k -- my idea is that he was on a space hunk that fell into the Warp, and fell back out in D&D space. He was rescued and is now in the Realms, his armor has been magically modified, and he's now a priest of Torm (he sees the Emperor as a servant to Torm).
As for meshing spelljammer (and fantasy in general) with the real world... That one puzzles me. Why would this be an objective? Unless I'm reading urban fantasy (which I am, at the moment: the Dresden Files), I'm more than happy to have fantasy and the real world be separated from each other. I see fantasy worlds as alternate realities with rules that may not necessarily be the same as in the real world, and that's fine with me.
And one of my earlier points remains, as well -- real world physics is not, in canon, fully in sync with physics in the Realms. Why is that not a problem for you, but the reverse is? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 22:07:06
My point is that the existence of something that we haven't discovered or how to do yet does not negate the fact it could be possible. For instance, there is a very good book about Dragons that discusses them from a RW perspective, and although I would not agree with everything presented therein, the author gave some very plausible theories about how such creatures could have existed. I have seen other works discussing similar subjects, and there are numerous scify series (The Saga of Pliocene Exile jumps to mind) that explain other fantasy phenomena.
BUT, we know there is NO Phlogiston, because we KNOW what space is composed of - THAT is my problem with it. You can suggest to me that Bigfoot does indeed exist, but you couldn't possibly convince me he lives in my house.
If you fall back on the theory that Earth sits in a cleverly disguised (or immensely large) crystal sphere, then we still have the problem of how a normal spacecraft (from a technological sphere) was flying trough Grayspace, which Expedition to the Barrier Peaks was based upon. A ship from a high-tech sphere shouldn't work within a magical/Spelljamming one. The two types of 'space' are not compatible. In fact, the final (real) issue of Dragon Magazine addressed the ship in that adventure, and we find out that it was simply one module jettisoned from a MUCH larger vessel trapped in Grayspace.
Spelljamming doesn't make sense in terms of it being a magical way to 'fly through normal space', but it could easily make sense if it were actually flying through something else (like some sort of planer medium).
Spelljamming also doesn't make much sense, as presented, in terms of Planescape/D&D cosmology, because why would any race go through so much trouble to travel through all that space that they can easily avoid? By linking Speljamming to the planes - and saying the phlogiston is a physical manifestation of some sort of 'astral sea' - it not only alleviates the problems with RW astrophysics, but also blends SJ better with PS (ships that sail the planes is an old - and good - fantasy trope).
Anyhow, you can probably tell I was never really happy with the SJ rules, but I have managed to distill the core concepts out for my own gaming. There was some good stuff buried (deep) under all that crap (for instance, the ships were the bomb!) |
| Barastir |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 19:14:34
quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins I have seen Spelljammer maps of the crystal spheres, but I do not think that I have seen any Planescape maps. Do you know where I might find one?
Inside the Planescape boxes...
Well, check this link, one of the maps I remember is quite like this one I found in the internet: http://zen79.deviantart.com/art/The-Planescape-Multiverse-35619350 |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 18:50:42
quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
My personal problem with Spelljammer is trying to fit the overall "map" of crystal spheres and the phlogiston within the planescape. I have a hard time conceptualizing it.
-I was actually thinking about that last night, for whatever reason. I see it as pretty simple, really: Everything exists on the Material Plane. The Void, on the Material Plane, is the Void. The Void, in the Elemental Plane of Water, might simply be a great expanse of water. On the Elemental Plane of Fire, lots of lava. On the Elemental Plane of Air, vast nothingness. On the Elemental Plane of Earth, more solid rock. And so on. |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 15:29:48
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
My personal problem with Spelljammer is trying to fit the overall "map" of crystal spheres and the phlogiston within the planescape. I have a hard time conceptualizing it.
Some planescape maps with the structure of the planes have this swirling mist with spheres that I think represent the phlogiston and the spheres, have you seen them, Hawkins?
I have seen Spelljammer maps of the crystal spheres, but I do not think that I have seen any Planscape maps. Do you know where I might find one? |
| Barastir |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 12:28:58
[quote]Originally posted by Hawkins
My personal problem with Spelljammer is trying to fit the overall "map" of crystal spheres and the phlogiston within the planescape. I have a hard time conceptualizing it.[quote]
Some planescape maps with the structure of the planes have this swirling mist with spheres that I think represent the phlogiston and the spheres, have you seen them, Hawkins? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 01:42:54
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Heck, it's been in canon since 1E that real-world devices such as electronics and gunpowder don't work in the Realms. That, too, defies physics and common sense. How is that okay?
-Right. The physics of Realmspace are notably different from the physics that we are used to, here in the real world. As far as I can tell, the physics in Realmspace, as well as the physics of Spelljamming are consistent.
Indeed.
This doesn't, however, mean that the Realms doesn't have an entirely unique set of physical laws all its own -- as the Old Grey Box states:- "The physics of the Realms are slightly out of sync with the rest of the planes, so that gunpowder and many technological devices which operate on electronics do not function. Equivalent devices may be developed by player-characters. DM’s judgment is advised as to what may be allowed into the world." [DM's Sourcebook of the Realms pg. 9]
As such, determining physical connections between Realmspace and the overall scope of SPELLJAMMER, is likely left up to the DM to decide upon. |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 21:49:57
My personal problem with Spelljammer is trying to fit the overall "map" of crystal spheres and the phlogiston within the planescape. I have a hard time conceptualizing it. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 20:32:56
I understand Markustay's concerns about making fantasy and RW somehow compatible. I also like to see fantasy settings like the real world with some spice. And I think it makes stories of Elminster coming to Earth, or travels of Dragonlance artists to Krynn, for example, make more sense, and stories being more "consistent" is part of the fun for me.
I think the hypothesis of spheres with a huge difference in size (from single-planet to universe-sized) was given to me by a friend as a home rule, since most of my knowledge of SJ was playing with him as a DM. But I think it is a nice alternative. Another one is that the Spelljammer helms also keep the temperature and air envelopes around the ships (they keep the gravity planes and give the ships motion power, right?). |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 18:33:15
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Heck, it's been in canon since 1E that real-world devices such as electronics and gunpowder don't work in the Realms. That, too, defies physics and common sense. How is that okay?
-Right. The physics of Realmspace are notably different from the physics that we are used to, here in the real world. As far as I can tell, the physics in Realmspace, as well as the physics of Spelljamming are consistent. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 18:10:40
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
But Spelljamming, as presented, cannot function within the same universe as as RW physics because it defies physics, and even common sense.
And again, things like dragons, teleportation, or other interesting magics like polymorphing are things that defy RW physics. Why are some things acceptable where others are not?
Heck, it's been in canon since 1E that real-world devices such as electronics and gunpowder don't work in the Realms. That, too, defies physics and common sense. How is that okay? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 16:56:34
I have no problem with fantasy (magic, monsters, etc..), because as a scify buff as well I have read many works which have married the concepts (is there really any difference between 'super-science' and magic?)
Magic can easily be made to shoe-horn into a scientific universe - D&D magic is based on Jack Vance's books, which are technically scify and therefor D&D magic itself is 'super-science'.
But Spelljamming, as presented, cannot function within the same universe as as RW physics because it defies physics, and even common sense.
Like I said, as presented. If we simply say that the ships are shifting into another plane as they leave the atmosphere, and NOT traveling through normal space, then everything works-out. The phlogoston CANNOT exist in the normal Prime Material Plane because science already knows it does not.
However, the Phlogiston CAN exist in any other place science has not yet ventured into. That's where my problem lies with Spelljamming - they imply that RW physics is wrong and that D&D rules are right, rather then trying to work within what we already know as factual.
And Earth being within its own crystal sphere is plausible, so I have no problem with that. It could be in an immensely large sphere, or alternately, be in a cleverly disguised one (like in the World of Tiers novel series). I personally lean toward the 'impossibly large' model, perhaps even going so far as to say the entirety of the Milky Way is contained within a single crystal sphere (which would alleviate some of the weirdness - trapped Spelljamming vessels would only be encountered at the outer rim of the Galaxy). Of course, encountering a 'Spanish Galleon' floating in-space out beyond Pluto would make for a great story as well. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 05:22:47
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So you dislike Spelljammer because it doesn't make sense compared to the real world, the same place where we don't have mages teleporting, dwarves and dark elves fighting under our feet, and dragons getting tweaked off and leveling cities?
-We have all of that stuff. It's just, you know, real. |
| Daviot |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 05:07:52
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The only thing I could possibly add is that I 'think' (as in, mostly conjecture) that the pocket-dimension that contains Abeir is within Realmspace, but out-of-sync with it (for you scify buffs, it resonates at a different quantum frequency).
...
I hadn't quite applied the 4e Abeir and Shadowfell stuff (given my group isn't using the Spellplague/4e shenanigans), but your otherwise Spelljammer+planes+physics mashup is pretty much spot-on with what I've been using with my group for our games. I approve, saer. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 02:17:10
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
ALL known D&D worlds, with the lone exception of the Domains of Dread (Ravenloft), are located in the Prime Material Plane.
Not quite.
While the 3e interpretation of RAVENLOFT didn't specifically define the nature of the realm in which it sit, the lore describing it tended to wax and wane around the possibility of it -- at one time -- existing in its own Prime Material -- while at other times -- it was sitting in a demiplane all on its own.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 18:23:20
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
This is why I dislike Spelljammer - it is hard to get it to work within the same universe as the RW. It only makes sense if the ship is actually shifting dimensionally, which the SJ rules never imply.
So you dislike Spelljammer because it doesn't make sense compared to the real world, the same place where we don't have mages teleporting, dwarves and dark elves fighting under our feet, and dragons getting tweaked off and leveling cities? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 16:19:23
The only thing I could possibly add is that I 'think' (as in, mostly conjecture) that the pocket-dimension that contains Abeir is within Realmspace, but out-of-sync with it (for you scify buffs, it resonates at a different quantum frequency).
What that means is that IF travel between the Prime Material and Abeir is at all possible, it can only be done from Realmspace; the pocket-dimension is a subset of Realmspace, and cannot be reach by traveling through any other plane (AFAIK). Some Crystal Spheres, like the one surrounding Athas (Dark Sun) are 'closed', and cannot be passed through by any means (including planeswalking, AFAIK). Crystal Spheres follow much the same setup as planes and domains, in that they all have their own set of rules & physics, including what levels of magic and technology are available, as well as which gods may enter (if any). This set of governing rules is known by various names depending upon the world in question; in the Realms we call it "The Weave".
ALL known D&D worlds, with the lone exception of the Domains of Dread (Ravenloft), are located in the Prime Material Plane. One can travel from one world to another by moving through the Phlogiston ('Space' in a magical universe), or the Deep Ethereal (pre-3e), or the Plane of Shadows/Shadowdfel (3e+).
Gray and I had some theories about phlogiston being the physical manifestation of the Deep Ethereal (or astral), which overlaps the Shadowfel dimensionally. Ergo, you are traveling through the same physical points in space as you move from world to world, but within different planer 'layers' (like traveling through the ocean, or beneath it at different depths). The magic of the Spelljamming Helms shifts you into the Border Ethereal as you exit the atmosphere, and from there you can enter various levels of dimensional space to reach your goals.
Once again, that last paragraph was mostly conjecture, to help marry some older D&D concepts to new ones, and also still allow RW physics to function in the D&D universe. It works very similar to how creatures in the Ethereal/Astral can't be seen from the Prime. The Enterprise (or Deathstar) would not be able to see the Spelljammer, even if the two passed right by each other, because the Spelljammer would be in a parallel plane (Astral, Ethereal, or Shadow), and NOT in the physical (Prime Material) Plane. Once within the gravitational field of a singularity, the spelljamming helm would return you to normal space, in a gradual manner that is indiscernible to normal (human) senses. Theoretically, it should be possible for either or both to see each other is the proper magic or technological sensing methods were employed, but under normal circumstances this would not apply.
This is why I dislike Spelljammer - it is hard to get it to work within the same universe as the RW. It only makes sense if the ship is actually shifting dimensionally, which the SJ rules never imply. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 05:56:08
From Ed's post over at Loremaster.org, Abeir appears to be in a pocket universe a little bit larger than Abeir. This pocket universe is located in roughly the same location as Toril, but dimensionally out of phase with each other. During the Spellplague, Abeir came back into "phase" with Toril and the planets briefly occupied the same physical reality (to some degree) causing displacement of landmasses and physical features.
It does not sound (from Ed's comments on the matter) as if Ao, or the Primordials created any celestial bodies for Abeir. The pocket universe appears to have been a cold, black space without any sun or stars. Some of us have speculated that the Steelsky which appears over Returned Abeir is what served the planet Abeir in lieu of a sun, giving light, and perhaps warmth, so that life could survive. Alternatively, it is possible that Abeir might have been able to see Toril's sun and stars through the borders of its pocket universe in the manner that people on the Ethereal Plane can peer into the Material Plane. Although, if they do have a Steelsky blanketing the planet, this might have obscured any such view.
See this thread here for a discussion on the matter: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/21077089/Planes_of_FR?pg=1
I was going to link directly to Ed's quote on Loremaster.org, but apparently Loremaster.org had a crash and the Ed Greenwood quote is no longer available there. But I will reproduce the question asked of Ed Greenwood by Silversword and Ed's reply:
"The_Silversword
November 22, 2009
Thank you Ed Greenwood! That was a very enlightening response!
I see what you mean, Im begining to understand now how Abeir fits in with the Realms Cosmology.
I have (at least) one more question on Abeir. Is there an Abeirspace? Was just Toril twinned or all of Realmspace? If you was on Abeir and left the planet via a Spelljamming vessel, or something similar, where would you end up? in Abeirspace, Realmspace, or some sort of Limbo? (Sorry I know thats more than one question.)
Thanks again for all your replies, I'm hoping you can enlighten me on this one as well.
Ed Greenwood
November 22, 2009
If you spelljammed up off Abeir, where you found yourself would depend on WHEN you left the surface of Abeir.
If it was immediately before, during, or after its "collision/passing through/intersection with" Toril, you would be in Realmspace (in probably very dangerous "weather" of bursts of spontaneous, uncontrolled lightning, vortices of destructive winds, wild magic, and other hairy, ferocious and everchanging side-effects of the two worlds "passing through" each other).
If it was long before or well after that time (more than a perhaps six months or so, either way), you'd find yourself lost in the phlogiston...somewhere. (I.e. up to your DM what the nearest crystal spheres would be.) Or in another dimension altogether (again, according to your DM's desires)." |
| The Sage |
Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 02:38:23
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's possible Athas is the only planet in its sphere, but unless there's something truly wonky about that one, then there's a sun in there, too, making it a solar system.
From what little we do know about the rest of Athas-space, the other bodies in the sphere aren't any nicer than Athas. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 20:30:09
As ive said before... Im a novice when it comes to FR lore, but slowly im getting there. All answers have been most helpfull. Though I must admit there are still things I dont get. Perhaps I'll find it all out someday!
Thanks again! |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 18:46:46
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
1) The prime material plane; is that Toril as a planet?
-The Prime Material Plane is the plane that Toril exist in. It is indeed a planet.
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
2) When AO sundered the Abeir-Toril into Abeir and Toril did he create another plane or and entire new planet? Or did he move a piece of the continent of Fearun?
-This was one of the biggest questions surrounding breaking 'Abeir' and 'Toril' into two distinct entities, when it used to just be Abeir-Toril in pre-4e sources. Nothing really said, in the preview material, just what exactly 'Abeir' was. As it turns out, 'Abeir' is a planet, like 'Toril'. The Spelljammer product Realmspace shows us what the solar system looks like. With 'Abeir' being retroactively added in there, obviously, the solar system has changed, with a new planet having been added in. No 4e material makes it clear that 'Abeir', as a planet, wasn't in some other plane, so presumably, it's always been in orbit around the sun, just without any kind of meaningful interaction with 'Toril' until the Spellplague.
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
3) Is the crystal sphere, wherein Toril lies like a solar system, a galaxy or a univers?
-A Crystal Sphere, it's literally a giant, physical sphere that contains the solar system of a D&D world, making things nice and neat. Depending on how big your solar system is, they can be bigger and larger, obviously.
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
4) If you kept climbing in altitude from Waterdeep would you get into space where other planets excist (like in our space) or would you hit the bouderies of the material plane?
-All of space is on the Material Plane. So, you'll go up, get into space eventually, but you'll still be on the Material Plane. If you left Realmspace, and went to another Crystal Sphere, you'd still be on the Material Plane.
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
5) Do one have to travel between planets or universes to get to Oerth and Kryynn?
-They're all different planets, in different Crystal Spheres. So, you'd have to travel out of one Crystal Sphere, into another. Phlogiston is the stuff that Crystal Spheres float in, so a spelljammer ship would travel through that stuff, to get from one to another. I always saw that as akin to traveling through Hyperspace, like in Star Wars.
-Anyway, hopefully, from everyone answering, you have enough info to sort things out. Something to remember, is that Spelljammer is a 2e thing, and we're now in 4e. There's two editions of rule changes, retcons to the multiverse and how things work, and names and such to work with. Personally, the 2e materials, obviously, are the best, and those are the ones I stick with. Make sense of that 2e stuff as a starting point, and then the changes made in 3e and 4e will come easier, and make more sense. |
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