| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Jarlaxle417 |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 08:29:16
My biggest frustration is attempting to analyse the deity changes, specifically the elven pantheons, in the 4th edition.
From what I've deduced Angharradh, who was 3 goddesses, is now just one, that being Angharradh herself.
Hanali Celanil is actually Sune, Sehanine is actually Selune, and Aerdrie is actually Akadi.
Now comes the most confusing aspect. General D&D considers Sehanine (who doesn't exist in FR) to be Corellon's consort.
FR states that Angharradh is Corellon's consort.
Many other articles state that Sehanine is an aspect of Selune but Selune is not Corellon's consort, Angharradh is.
When reading the The Plane Above resource it is used completely with reference to Sehanine who is the goddess of the moon in general D&D. In FR Selune is the goddess of the moon and therefore contradicts everything stated by the powers of Corellon's constort who is Angharradh and not Selune (Sehanine).
Do you have any idea how this is suppose to work? Am I just suppose to consider Angharradh the consort, flatly state that Sehanine is really Selune and that The Plane Above's Avandor's reference to Sehanine is wrong for FR and reconfigure the moon aspect?
One other thing is deciding where Eilastraee's lost followers decide to go. Do they embrace Selune? or Angharradh? or Corellon? or all the above scattering themselves? Sehanine would make the most sense but unfortunately she doesn't exist in FR...
I would love to hear your opinions on this and I would love to be redirected to more individuals who would have a good response for the lack of continuity here.
Mod Edit: Found this lost scroll floating in the ether. |
| 23 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 26 May 2011 : 19:01:06
Which is why I always fall back on my 'lavalamp theory'.
'Gods' are energy, plain and simple (actually, EVERYTHING outside of the Material Plane is energy, but that's beside the point). Picture this energy to behave similar to a liquid (like rain water, even); it can separate, merge, split, etc, etc...
A God is like a cup of water (or something more gelatinous) - It's Avatars are like individual drops of that god. This is where it gets complicated -
Not only can the individual drops separate and re-merge with the whole, but they can also do so with drops from other cups (gods). Angarraadh is nothing more then three avatars from three different goddesses that combine occasionally for some purpose. Ergo, Corellon is mostly connected to the Moon goddess (a name is nothing more then a mortal concept for something beyond their understanding), but has no problem having the tri-avatar representation of Angarradh as his consort (which means he is really in a relationship with all three, which means nothing at all to a god). Gods (and I mean ALL beings with that descriptor, not just deities) don't think as we do - the mortal concept of individuality, or even monogamy, is meaningless to them. They are whatever they are composed of at the moment.
You can try to quantify this by using their DvRs, but even that is in constant flux (depending on how many avatars they 'have out', and what their current power-level is, which changes constantly). 'The Gods' themselves are often part of some greater being (which I used to dub 'Archtypes'). Each setting may have a piece of some archtype which has broken-off and become it's own individual. These pieces evolve and merge with others, and it is possible for these individual pieces to become so different then their original, 'parent' being as to not even recognize their relationship to similar pieces of the same being (which is what often happens when two very similar powers with similar portfolios wind up in the same Crystal sphere).
So Angarradh is a separate entity, while at the same time is part of three other beings, who in-turn may be parts of other beings - as Hanali is supposed to be Sune, and Sune herself is supposed to be the same being as Venus/Aphrodite (which is just a mortal name for the power of love and beauty, and means next to nothing in the greater scheme of things). Names are created by mortal worshipers, and the same power could have hundreds of different ones, or conversely, dozens of powers could all be using the same name in different spheres.
There is a VERY good reason why planer beings refer to mortals as 'Clueless Primes'. We are unable to process all the data which goes into what a 'god' is, which constantly changes from one moment to the next. Our notion of 'self' does not apply to them; at least not in the same way it does to us. We are defined by the vessel that contains us, whilst they are defined by that which is contained.
All versions of the lore are simultaneously true, depending upon how you look at it. 
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
you can't go wrong with Corellon, best consort to Corellon is Corellon
And that means you suggest something to him that would be anatomically impossible for mortals, but that he could pull it off!
Double Entendre indeed.  |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 04 May 2011 : 06:56:24
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Angharradh's avatar is quite different from those of any of her three component dieties, from their descriptions. I'm pretty sure they'd notice.
-Princess Ilyrana wasn't particularly altered in any way when channeling (supposedly) Angharradh's power to banish the Elf-Eater from Evermeet in 1,371 DR.
-In terms of divine servants and petitioners, Angharradh's are the same as the Three. In terms of avatars:
quote:
Angharradh appears as a female elf of unearthly beauty and grade who is gloriously gowned and shining with gems the color of starlight. In times of war she appears in a suit of gleaming silver Elven plate mail. Angharrad can also manifest in any of the ways employed by Aerdrie Faenya, Hanali Celanil and Sehanine Moonbow.
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| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 04 May 2011 : 01:19:13
Angharradh's avatar is quite different from those of any of her three component dieties, from their descriptions. I'm pretty sure they'd notice. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 03 May 2011 : 19:44:52
or you can skip the 4e deities of the realms all together and just use rule 0 and use the 3.x ones , even the dead ones or switch them all around if you want |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 03 May 2011 : 18:41:59
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
And yet they had ample PROOF of her existence when Amlaruil's daughter became her AVATAR.....
-Not really. She could have been possessed by another deity, quite simply, from the point of view of the Elves who witnessed it. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 02 May 2011 : 01:48:32
And yet they had ample PROOF of her existence when Amlaruil's daughter became her AVATAR..... *sigh* And this was in the same book where Sehenine became his consort in the first place after Araushnee's fall. He's pretty much played the entire field of elven goddesses, if you think about it. All he's missing are Hanali and Aerdrie. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 18:55:12
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I wondered about the Sehenine/Angharradh thing even EFORE 4th came and rewrote everything! One is his consort, then the other? Uh, okay.....
-Among the Sun Elves, Angharradh is only a myth, the relationship between Corellon Larethian and Sehanine Moonbow misunderstood by Moon Elves (primarily). |
| Snowblood |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 17:04:54
if its confusing for gamers imagine how it will split the various faiths in the realms.....conclaves...splits.....holy wars....crusades....the fall of entire empires....all because people can't agree on how to interpret their versions of the divine......sigh! |
| Barastir |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 12:15:47
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I wondered about the Sehenine/Angharradh thing even EFORE 4th came and rewrote everything! One is his consort, then the other? Uh, okay.....
It's simple: Corellon wanted or needed the three goddesses (magic, elements and beauty) as his consorts. Angharradh came so he wouldn't have to practice poligamy! heheheh |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 06:47:27
I wondered about the Sehenine/Angharradh thing even EFORE 4th came and rewrote everything! One is his consort, then the other? Uh, okay..... |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 05:51:54
a very confusing discussionary topic isnt it.
Shadowbane for godhood!!!!! |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 05:21:00
I don't think anything posted here contradicts what I said earlier, so I stand by that.
I will address a couple points:
quote:
Originally posted by Jarlaxle417
'All agree that Arvandor centers on Corellon’s palace, Crescent Grove, where he lives with his queen, Angharradh.' - 4th Edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide
Well, in this context "all" refers to all in the Forgotten Realms, because the scope of the FRCG is the Realms.
quote:
my problem still lies in that under the pantheons of FR in 4th Edition Sehanine is no longer listed and therefore does not exist in FR core rules. Just the same Angharradh is not listed under the core rules of D&D and does not exist under the core rules umbrella.
While it is true that Sehanine isn't listed in the FR books and Angharradh isn't listed in the core books, the conclusion that they do not exist in those settings does not follow from this fact.
Not all the gods in FR 2e, for instance, were listed in the old Grey Box, and yet people don't seriously assert that they didn't exist until 2e.
Unless you see it definitively stated in a FR book that this or that deity does not exist, then it's entirely possible (even probable) that the deity does exist and just hasn't been covered (as yet) in a 4e FR product. Which really isn't surprising, since there have been few official 4e FR products released.
quote:
With this in mind even if one would want to consider Sehanine to be an elven representation of Selune the beliefs of both are different. Both may be moon oriented but Selune is anti-evil-lycanthropy, pantience and compassion with a portfolio of Navigation, Questors, Stars, and Wanderers while Sehanine is trickery, illusion, and love with a portfolio of Death, Dreams, Journeys, The heavens, The moon, Moon elves, Mysticism, The stars, and Transcendence.
Again, that's the difference between settings. And it's entirely possible that elves who worship Selune as Sehanine worship her for those very aspects.
quote:
this now leaves one last question. Sehanine is said to live in Arvandor with Corellon. Selune lives in the Gates of the Moon, not in Arvandor. Angharradh lives in Arvandor with Corellon.
Again, you're mixing sources. The Realms cosmology isn't strictly the same as the core cosmology. And even if in your game it is, why can't Sehanine/Selune live in both places?
quote:
Angharradh's portfolio is Birth, Defense, Fertility, Planting, Spring, and Wisdom which are not the same as Sehanine (who does not exist in FR according to the core rules of FR).
Well, that's not so much a surprise, since Angharradh has always had a different portfolio than those of her component goddesses. And as I said above, Angharradh ISN'T Sehanine/Selune, or Hanali/Sune, or Aerdrie/Akadi--she is all three all at once.
quote:
Therefore I digress. Does this state that Sehanine, Selune, and Angharradh are one in the same in 4th Edition being that Sehanine does not exist in FR core rules and therefore Angharradh is Selune but uses a different portfolio? And therefore Angharradh is Sehanine for FR but not moon oriented?
Angharradh and Sehanine are not the same goddess. Sehanine is the elven name of Selune.
I can't really be any clearer, I don't think. Sorry. 
Cheers |
| Garen Thal |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 00:41:23
I weighed in on my thoughts about this not long after the 4E FR books came out. This scroll summarizes my ideas about how to reconcile the differences between 3E and 4E lore.
It doesn't necessarily work for everyone, but it's how I see things. |
| althen artren |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 23:54:37
i knew avatars were good for something. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 23:11:57
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
you can't go wrong with Corellon, best consort to Corellon is Corellon
And that means you suggest something to him that would be anatomically impossible for mortals, but that he could pull it off! |
| Quale |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 23:05:33
you can't go wrong with Corellon, best consort to Corellon is Corellon |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 19:58:37
I'd like to point out that Richard Baker;before he went silent, has said that the Core deities and the FR deities may not be the same god...
I'd look for a link, but I would not know what to lookk for....
but hey its your realms so whatever floats in the astral sea. |
| Jarlaxle417 |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 19:09:30
'All agree that Arvandor centers on Corellon’s palace, Crescent Grove, where he lives with his queen, Angharradh.' - 4th Edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide
First, thank you for your responses. I do understand the concept of the gods being worshipped under different names by separate races or different worlds. This does make sense to me but my problem still lies in that under the pantheons of FR in 4th Edition Sehanine is no longer listed and therefore does not exist in FR core rules. Just the same Angharradh is not listed under the core rules of D&D and does not exist under the core rules umbrella.
With this in mind even if one would want to consider Sehanine to be an elven representation of Selune the beliefs of both are different. Both may be moon oriented but Selune is anti-evil-lycanthropy, pantience and compassion with a portfolio of Navigation, Questors, Stars, and Wanderers while Sehanine is trickery, illusion, and love with a portfolio of Death, Dreams, Journeys, The heavens, The moon, Moon elves, Mysticism, The stars, and Transcendence.
Even if you wanted to state that these domains can be interchangeable by the worshipper depending on their race and beliefs this now leaves one last question. Sehanine is said to live in Arvandor with Corellon. Selune lives in the Gates of the Moon, not in Arvandor. Angharradh lives in Arvandor with Corellon.
Angharradh's portfolio is Birth, Defense, Fertility, Planting, Spring, and Wisdom which are not the same as Sehanine (who does not exist in FR according to the core rules of FR).
In the Manual of the Planes it does mention that Sehanine uses moongates to move around and therefore makes reference to the Moon of the Gates, I guess, which would be where Selune and Sune live, but the Moon of the Gates realm does not exist in the core rules but only in FR.
Therefore I digress. Does this state that Sehanine, Selune, and Angharradh are one in the same in 4th Edition being that Sehanine does not exist in FR core rules and therefore Angharradh is Selune but uses a different portfolio? And therefore Angharradh is Sehanine for FR but not moon oriented?
Again referencing the quote from 4th Edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide. 'All agree that Arvandor centers on Corellon’s palace, Crescent Grove, where he lives with his queen, Angharradh.'
|
| Barastir |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 18:46:30
Besides, if there is a "core Sehanine" that exists in many worlds and Sehanine is identified as Selûne in FR, I think it makes some sense that, specifically in FR, she is more recognized as Selûne only because there are more human than elven followers in this world. But she would still be the same old Sehanine Moonbow.
About the story of Corellon, Sehanine and Araushnee's treachery, you can also check on Evermeet: Island of Elves, a great novel from Mrs. Elaine Cunningham. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 18:08:51
As the writer of the Plane Above's Arvandor section and an established Realms fan, I thought I'd weigh in on this.
Basically, you have the CHOICE to assert that the deities are the same, the deities are separate, or just leave it ambiguous.
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-Concerning The Plane Above, stay with me here, because this can be confusing. The Plane Above is a sourcebook for "Core World" of 4e. "Core World" had entities that use the same names as Forgotten Realms entities- Sehanine, who became a "Core World" deity, is one of them. The Sehanine mentioned in "Core World" products need not be the Sehanine Moonbow of the Forgotten Realms. So, when a generic 4e product says something in regards to "their" Sehanine, it does not necessarily apply to "our" Sehanine Moonbow. When you have clashing references, as mentioned, in the Forgotten Realms, that Forgotten Realms products trump the generic D&D products, from the lore standpoint.
That is indeed one way to look at it.
Another way to look at it is that Sehanine from "Core" and Sehanine/Selune from "FR" *are indeed* the same deity, one that is worshiped differently in different worlds. We've already seen that gods can exist in multiple worlds and have different dogmas/followings (Bahamut and Tiamat for two examples, and I rather think the Bane of Core and the Bane of FR are the same deity also). From a deity's perspective, this makes a lot of sense, particularly if your divine power depends on your worshippers: you tailor your "message" to each world where you're worshipped.
And yes, IMO, Selune and Sehanine are the same deity in the Realms. Sehanine is just the name elves use when referring to the moon goddess. In a similar way, Sune and Hanali Celanil are the same goddess with two different names, as are Aerdrie and Akadi. And yes, thus, the three goddesses that make up Angharradh still exist, and Angharradh is still a manifestation of those three goddesses. None of the goddesses individually is Corellon's consort, but in their triune state, they are.
What does it mean for three deities to be a single deity? This was something I sort of went into in the Plane Above chapter on Arvandor, though away from my books I can't say exactly how much of it survived editing. In my design, Corellon, Sehanine, and Araushnee/Lolth were originally a triune deity of "the fey"--a race that wasn't eladrin, elf, or drow but all three. They were fragmented in part by the Dawn War, and in part by Lolth's treachery.
If you want to tie all this into FR, Angharradh manifested out of Sehanine/Selune's power along with that of two other goddesses (Hanali/Sune and Aerdrie/Akadi, in their fey manifestations) in order to resist Araushnee/Lolth, just as described in the Faiths and Avatars book, etc., etc.
Ultimately, this is supposed to be a divine mystery. You're going to have to make your own decision about what you want to be the case in your own game, or just leave it a mystery.
Cheers |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 17:05:33
-Angharradh, or if you're a Sun Elf, Sehanine Moonbow. Nothing's changed.
-Concerning The Plane Above, stay with me here, because this can be confusing. The Plane Above is a sourcebook for "Core World" of 4e. "Core World" had entities that use the same names as Forgotten Realms entities- Sehanine, who became a "Core World" deity, is one of them. The Sehanine mentioned in "Core World" products need not be the Sehanine Moonbow of the Forgotten Realms. So, when a generic 4e product says something in regards to "their" Sehanine, it does not necessarily apply to "our" Sehanine Moonbow. When you have clashing references, as mentioned, in the Forgotten Realms, that Forgotten Realms products trump the generic D&D products, from the lore standpoint.
-And, as for Eilistraee's former and current followers, odds are, they go to Arvandor under Corellon Larethian's protection, since he seemingly became the steward of Elistraee's stuff, as evidenced in the final scene of the Lady Penitent trilogy. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 13:15:02
Indeed. I'll add that elves of Toril would still call the moongoddes Sehanine Moonbow, with all the myths, clergy and rituals that come with that. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 12:25:39
It is a bit more complicated, and I just don't know how 4e deals with that. Usually (even in FR) Sehanine was considered Corellon's consort. However, under some conditions Angharradh tre Triune Goddess (a greater power) manifested herself through the fusion of Sehanine, Hanali and Aerdrie (all intermediate deities).
I think there is nothing that prevents the now-modified goddesses to fuse into Angharradh. But considering all the knowledge and legends mortals have about deities can be wrong or inaccurate, maybe this piece of mythology is just that: myth. Maybe this "union" is only a mythological explanation the elves have for the origins of a major deity that encompasses all the elven ideals of a perfect goddess (the beauty of Halani, the elemental power of Aerdrie, and the mysticism of Sehanine). |
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