| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Caolin |
Posted - 22 Apr 2011 : 05:33:05
This came up in the novel Sword of the Gods. I'm not sure who Oghma's nemesis is. Can anyone shed some light on this? |
| 26 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| ChieftainTwilight |
Posted - 23 Apr 2011 : 22:03:55
quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
quote:
that seems too small-scale...
I actually had made this point when dicsussing Morality.. you see, my idea is that sometimes you must do something wrong in order to do something right (the ends justifies the means). whether what you did is good or evil depends on the balance. there is a comb(i)nation of deeds and the intentions behind them that determines whether someone is good or evil.
now, if we look at this objectively we will see that how absolute it is depends on a being's scope of the greater picture. let's say there is a prophecy that says that if a certain something that would be great comes to pass, something far more terrible than the goodness of that good thing will happen generations later. I higher being, probably a god or something, decides to do something about this.
let's say that this god has bee manipulating events for an ultimate goodness. he of course is playing mortals like pawns, and has agents spend a generation or two in the goal of preventing this small-scale miracle from happening. these pawns don't even know about the potential large-scale disaster. they are led by some other goal.
you see, from the mortal perspective, these pawns are evil people. there is no doubt about the fact that on their level of life and experience what they did is evil. however, the higher being lives on a much larger scale and so his conscience is clean.
my point is, that I don't think that something along the lines of some scrolls being destroyed is worthy of the emergency-level attention of a god as it is for humans. on a cosmic scale, the entire lifespan of our planet is insignificant!
Cheiftain Twilight, I think we're mixing metaphors here. Oghma is unconcerned about prophecies in his role. He is very specific in telling Mystra that he is powerless to help her stop Cyric from writing the Cyrinishad because Cyric is in no way threatening Oghma's duties as The Binder (the God of Knowledge). I don't have my copy of Price of Lies handy, but the whole point of that book and its sequel is to point out to Mystra and Kelemvor that their duties are first and foremost to the Balance. Mystra is forced to grant magic to wizards who kill people, and cannot grant and deny magic as she sees fit. Kelemovor, equally, cannot sentence people who die nobly to "good" immortal punishments. Aside from those who worship him, he is to judge them as false or faithless. All other spirits are taken by their patron deities on the Fugue Plane. The point of the Pantheon is that each god is responsible for a certain aspect (or more than one) of the multiverse. Thus, one might make the argument that Loviatar and Ilmater are opposites, as one favors pain and one seeks to stop suffering, but Oghma is the God of Knowledge. He isn't the God of Important Knowledge, he is the God of All Knowledge. As a Greater Power, Oghma can be in many places at once, but that doesn't mean he is going to manifest every time a scroll is burned.
Oghma only concerns himself with the collection and storage of knowledge. He doesn't care if it's accurate, he doesn't care if it's important. His task is to safeguard knowledge. With respect to the comment of his statement about immediately (concurrently, really) telling Mystra of Cyric's task, it is fair to state that Mystra already has this knowledge as she is the goddess of all magic. She wouldn't need to read from Oghma's library to understand the spell. The Balance is a decree from Lord Ao, that gods are required to foment activities that cancel out one another when taken as a whole. As Oghma's only true task is to preserve knowledge, anything or anyone that attempts to do otherwise is his "enemy." I do agree that Leira would have been a frequent rival, as is Mask, but Oghma's task bears no reference to time. From his creation to his destruction, his task is lore's keeper: nothing more, nothing less.
way to make me feel guilty! XD now I don't have a good excuse for not mailing my list servs as a Student Senator, even though I talk to students face to face all the time. |
| Caolin |
Posted - 23 Apr 2011 : 20:28:15
Now that I have finished the book Sword of the Gods I am thinking more and more that his nemesis is indeed Shar. The antagonist wasn't actually trying to acquire all knowledge and fore knowledge, it was just a means to an end. I don't want to say more as it will ruin the story.
After digesting the book for a few days I have to say that it is one of the best Realms novels I've read in a while. I would highly recommend it. The Abyssal Plague stuff plays a very small role in the story. Read the Gates of Madness pdf first then pick up this book. It also appears that they will continue this story and deviate away from the Abyssal plague story line in future novels. |
| Azuth |
Posted - 23 Apr 2011 : 20:05:34
quote:
that seems too small-scale...
I actually had made this point when dicsussing Morality.. you see, my idea is that sometimes you must do something wrong in order to do something right (the ends justifies the means). whether what you did is good or evil depends on the balance. there is a comb(i)nation of deeds and the intentions behind them that determines whether someone is good or evil.
now, if we look at this objectively we will see that how absolute it is depends on a being's scope of the greater picture. let's say there is a prophecy that says that if a certain something that would be great comes to pass, something far more terrible than the goodness of that good thing will happen generations later. I higher being, probably a god or something, decides to do something about this.
let's say that this god has bee manipulating events for an ultimate goodness. he of course is playing mortals like pawns, and has agents spend a generation or two in the goal of preventing this small-scale miracle from happening. these pawns don't even know about the potential large-scale disaster. they are led by some other goal.
you see, from the mortal perspective, these pawns are evil people. there is no doubt about the fact that on their level of life and experience what they did is evil. however, the higher being lives on a much larger scale and so his conscience is clean.
my point is, that I don't think that something along the lines of some scrolls being destroyed is worthy of the emergency-level attention of a god as it is for humans. on a cosmic scale, the entire lifespan of our planet is insignificant!
Cheiftain Twilight, I think we're mixing metaphors here. Oghma is unconcerned about prophecies in his role. He is very specific in telling Mystra that he is powerless to help her stop Cyric from writing the Cyrinishad because Cyric is in no way threatening Oghma's duties as The Binder (the God of Knowledge). I don't have my copy of Price of Lies handy, but the whole point of that book and its sequel is to point out to Mystra and Kelemvor that their duties are first and foremost to the Balance. Mystra is forced to grant magic to wizards who kill people, and cannot grant and deny magic as she sees fit. Kelemovor, equally, cannot sentence people who die nobly to "good" immortal punishments. Aside from those who worship him, he is to judge them as false or faithless. All other spirits are taken by their patron deities on the Fugue Plane. The point of the Pantheon is that each god is responsible for a certain aspect (or more than one) of the multiverse. Thus, one might make the argument that Loviatar and Ilmater are opposites, as one favors pain and one seeks to stop suffering, but Oghma is the God of Knowledge. He isn't the God of Important Knowledge, he is the God of All Knowledge. As a Greater Power, Oghma can be in many places at once, but that doesn't mean he is going to manifest every time a scroll is burned.
Oghma only concerns himself with the collection and storage of knowledge. He doesn't care if it's accurate, he doesn't care if it's important. His task is to safeguard knowledge. With respect to the comment of his statement about immediately (concurrently, really) telling Mystra of Cyric's task, it is fair to state that Mystra already has this knowledge as she is the goddess of all magic. She wouldn't need to read from Oghma's library to understand the spell. The Balance is a decree from Lord Ao, that gods are required to foment activities that cancel out one another when taken as a whole. As Oghma's only true task is to preserve knowledge, anything or anyone that attempts to do otherwise is his "enemy." I do agree that Leira would have been a frequent rival, as is Mask, but Oghma's task bears no reference to time. From his creation to his destruction, his task is lore's keeper: nothing more, nothing less.
|
| Kerryth Silver |
Posted - 23 Apr 2011 : 19:32:03
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
quote:
Originally posted by Kerryth Silver
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
I dont consider that series canon... but my guess would be Shar just look at her portfolio
The 'Sword of the Gods' and The Abyssal Plague are totally canon dood. But yea, Shar is the best candidat for Oghma's best frenemie. Oghma hates it when peeps keep secrets, and Shar totally luvs it. So ye... Shar + Oghma "" B(Frenemies)FFs!! ""
Not in My REalms... official canon or not
ye, but nuthin in yer Realms is canon, sfdragon, lolz! |
| Calmar |
Posted - 23 Apr 2011 : 16:08:27
The orc gods?  |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 23 Apr 2011 : 15:54:44
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-Kilvan, it all depends on the lie.
-You could get a lie that tells you that your ancestry is Russian, when it really is Estonian. It's a lie, but it does contain a kernel of truth- you are of Eastern European ancestry. Not having information present, period, since it's being kept a secret, you're not getting anything out of it whatsoever.
That's a good point, but the same could be told for secrets. There are many things that are better left unknown, so it depends on the secret too.
EDIT: For example, the location of a secret weapon that would only bring plague, death and destruction. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 23 Apr 2011 : 15:50:26
-Kilvan, it all depends on the lie.
-You could get a lie that tells you that your ancestry is Russian, when it really is Estonian. It's a lie, but it does contain a kernel of truth- you are of Eastern European ancestry. Not having information present, period, since it's being kept a secret, you're not getting anything out of it whatsoever. |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 23 Apr 2011 : 14:00:34
Let's say I'm looking for a definition in a dictionary, I'd rather find no definition at all than finding one which is false. In that regard, a secret (Shar) is a lesser-evil than a lie (Cyric) for my knowledge.
That is, of course, an over-simplification, but you get the idea.
As for Oghma 'helping' Cyric during ToT, he also went straight to Mystra to tell her of Cyric's plan and about the information he got from his library. IIRC, he wouldn't have done it if Mystra's and Cyric's role had been reversed. |
| ChieftainTwilight |
Posted - 23 Apr 2011 : 10:20:33
quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
I truly believe it depends on the Balance. If Talos is flooding a major library and destroying scrolls in the process, he is against Oghma. Mask dislikes Oghma, but they found common cause in uniting against Cyric. Oghma may view Shar as the ultimate threat, but on a daily basis, Shar does not seek to destroy knowledge. In fact, through the Shadow Weave, she might be creating new knowledge which would further Oghma's goals. Oghma wants knowledge, and seeks to provide it be available to all. In Prince of Lies he allows Cyric to read a text (but not touch) because his knowledge is open to all. (This is one particular problem I have with Candlekeep, as those who visit must pay a price. That being said, Ed created Candlekeep, thus Jim Lowder's take on him may or may not be Ed-informed)
Thus I think that the true answer is that anyone who would destroy in formation is Oghma's nemesis. Anything or anyone that tips the Balance away from the preservation of knowledge is against Oghma's greatest tenet, and thus his nemesis.
that seems too small-scale...
I actually had made this point when dicsussing Morality.. you see, my idea is that sometimes you must do something wrong in order to do something right (the ends justifies the means). whether what you did is good or evil depends on the balance. there is a combonation of deeds and the intentions behind them that determines whether someone is good or evil.
now, if we look at this objectively we will see that how absolute it is depends on a being's scope of the greater picture. let's say there is a prophecy that says that if a certain something that would be great comes to pass, something far more terrible than the goodness of that good thing will happen generations later. I higher being, probably a god or something, decides to do something about this.
let's say that this god has bee manipulating events for an ultimate goodness. he of course is playing mortals like pawns, and has agents spend a generation or two in the goal of preventing this small-scale miracle from happening. these pawns don't even know about the potential large-scale disaster. they are led by some other goal.
you see, from the mortal perspective, these pawns are evil people. there is no doubt about the fact that on their level of life and experience what they did is evil. however, the higher being lives on a much larger scale and so his conscience is clean.
my point is, that I don't think that something along the lines of some scrolls being destroyed is worthy of the emergency-level attention of a god as it is for humans. on a cosmic scale, the entire lifespan of our planet is insignificant! |
| Dennis |
Posted - 23 Apr 2011 : 03:48:27
Cyric? Hmm, he's actually next in Shar's "To-Subsume" list. |
| Azuth |
Posted - 23 Apr 2011 : 02:43:01
I truly believe it depends on the Balance. If Talos is flooding a major library and destroying scrolls in the process, he is against Oghma. Mask dislikes Oghma, but they found common cause in uniting against Cyric. Oghma may view Shar as the ultimate threat, but on a daily basis, Shar does not seek to destroy knowledge. In fact, through the Shadow Weave, she might be creating new knowledge which would further Oghma's goals. Oghma wants knowledge, and seeks to provide it be available to all. In Prince of Lies he allows Cyric to read a text (but not touch) because his knowledge is open to all. (This is one particular problem I have with Candlekeep, as those who visit must pay a price. That being said, Ed created Candlekeep, thus Jim Lowder's take on him may or may not be Ed-informed)
Thus I think that the true answer is that anyone who would destroy in formation is Oghma's nemesis. Anything or anyone that tips the Balance away from the preservation of knowledge is against Oghma's greatest tenet, and thus his nemesis.
|
| Kilvan |
Posted - 23 Apr 2011 : 01:54:56
Aren't lies worse than secrets from a knowledge point of view? I imagined Cyric to be Oghma's main nemesis.
|
| sfdragon |
Posted - 23 Apr 2011 : 01:23:59
quote:
Originally posted by Kerryth Silver
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
I dont consider that series canon... but my guess would be Shar just look at her portfolio
The 'Sword of the Gods' and The Abyssal Plague are totally canon dood. But yea, Shar is the best candidat for Oghma's best frenemie. Oghma hates it when peeps keep secrets, and Shar totally luvs it. So ye... Shar + Oghma "" B(Frenemies)FFs!! ""
Not in My REalms... official canon or not |
| The Sage |
Posted - 23 Apr 2011 : 01:12:42
Re: Oghma's nemesis...
I've actually been providing subtle hints in my campaigns for the last several years about something like this. As I see it, Oghma's nemesis, in my Realms at least, could possibly be an ascended, divine-like Keeper of Oblivion from The Complete Guide to Liches.
The Keeper of Oblivion is, essentially, a lich who seeks out all knowledge, not for his/her own gain, but to keep hidden such knowledge from ALL others. Which is entirely a contradiction of the philosophy of knowledge underpinning the Oghmanyte faith. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 23 Apr 2011 : 01:05:17
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
ultimately it's Shar, the black hole that sucks up information, and then there's Oghma's radiation
You're deliberately trying to draw me into this again, aren't you Quale? 
Thus:-
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
... a phenomena only now just being observed by sages across the Realms. Informally referred to as "Oghma Radiation," it is said to be an odd occurrence enacted by the Lord of Knowledge in order to ensure that ALL information is protected, and is never truly lost. Loremasters believe that Oghma himself literally reaches beneath the void of nothingness [which supposedly leads to the Negative Energy Plane], encouraging info-particles to radiate out from the void, and return to the Prime Material Plane.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Apr 2011 : 20:09:26
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
@SFDragon - you may not consider it canon, but it is an official WoTC novel set in the Forgotten Realms. Like it or not, it's canon.
As for Shar being Oghma's nemesis, I had thought that it was Shar at first as well. But the antagonist isn't about destroying or hiding knowledge. They are about knowing ALL knowledge past, present, AND future. I don't want to spoil too much, but Oghma was very against this.
All knowledge would include knowledge of the gods... So this deity (as I assume it is) is seeking their own destruction... |
| Kerryth Silver |
Posted - 22 Apr 2011 : 19:08:31
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
I dont consider that series canon... but my guess would be Shar just look at her portfolio
The 'Sword of the Gods' and The Abyssal Plague are totally canon dood. But yea, Shar is the best candidat for Oghma's best frenemie. Oghma hates it when peeps keep secrets, and Shar totally luvs it. So ye... Shar + Oghma "" B(Frenemies)FFs!! "" |
| Caolin |
Posted - 22 Apr 2011 : 18:38:08
@SFDragon - you may not consider it canon, but it is an official WoTC novel set in the Forgotten Realms. Like it or not, it's canon.
As for Shar being Oghma's nemesis, I had thought that it was Shar at first as well. But the antagonist isn't about destroying or hiding knowledge. They are about knowing ALL knowledge past, present, AND future. I don't want to spoil too much, but Oghma was very against this. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 22 Apr 2011 : 17:27:24
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Shar is anathema not just to LG gods, but to all. If everything is sucked by the Void, what else will be left for the gods?
-That's a good point, since her goal, to destroy anything and everything. I would have to say, I guess, more deities ally themselves with her, or don't have anything specific against her because of political expedience, not being actually powerful enough to do anything about it, or not being farsighted enough to fully grasp her ultimate goal. |
| Quale |
Posted - 22 Apr 2011 : 14:34:03
ultimately it's Shar, the black hole that sucks up information, and then there's Oghma's radiation |
| Dennis |
Posted - 22 Apr 2011 : 10:45:31
Shar is anathema not just to LG gods, but to all. If everything is sucked by the Void, what else will be left for the gods? |
| ChieftainTwilight |
Posted - 22 Apr 2011 : 09:57:18
honestly, all those other gods participate in the grand orchestra that Oghma conducts. the only one I realy consider to be his nemesis, his arch-rival, is Shar. hell, she did her dirty work to him even worse than she did to Mystra! her little curse in Oghma's book is litterally a means by which anyone can unwravle all of existence, thereby achieving her ultimate goal -- return to Void!
this, coincidentally or not, makes her the polarizing antogonist of both Selune and Oghma. however, you gotta admit that she's more than a little easy to sympathize with. I've actually made a few interesting characters who worshipped her, including a fanatic nihilist Half-Drow Shadow Adept. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 22 Apr 2011 : 08:30:24
I think in Faiths and Pantheons it says Leira was. She had some sort of plot to destroy Oghma by making the world forget everything for a day? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 22 Apr 2011 : 06:40:17
I guess Shar and Leira would be on top of the list. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 22 Apr 2011 : 06:06:54
-Well, Oghma represents knowledge, so anyone who's seek to destroy, subvert, or stop the spread of ideas and knowledge, I would say, would be an enemy of Oghma. A few obvious ones:
Shar: Seeks to bring the world into nothingness, destroying knowledge in the process.
Mask: Covets things and prevents ideas from being spread, by stealing them.
Talos: Causes havoc and destruction, which stunts the growth of ideas and the dissemination of them.
Bane: Worked against him during the Time of Troubles.
Cyrc: Picked up where Bane left off.
Leira: Shrouds the truth in illusion.
*Note, I'm not listing deities that might be on speaking terms with Oghma, in terms of goals, or alignment, or whatever, that compete for followers, like Finder Wyvernspur or Denier. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 22 Apr 2011 : 05:54:00
I dont consider that series canon... but my guess would be Shar just look at her portfolio |
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