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 Vecna, The Spellplague, and Random Musings....

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T O P I C    R E V I E W
Markustay Posted - 11 Apr 2011 : 00:58:17
While doing some research for a current project, I needed to know what years certain things happened on Oerth (GH) in the FR calender, so I consulted several Wiki pages, and two chronologies, including Bryan James own Chronology of the Primes.

I hadn't realized this before, but the Spellplague took place at the same time as Die Vecna, Die!. Here is a quote from Wikipedia, taken (presumably) directly from the end of the product -
quote:
"Even with Vecna's removal, his time in the crux effected change in superspace. Though the Lady of Pain attempts to heal the damage, the turmoil spawned by Vecna's time in Sigil cannot be entirely erased. Some Outer Planes drift off and are forever lost, others collide and merge, while at least one Inner Plane runs "aground" on a distant world of the Prime. Moreover, the very nature of the Prime Material Plane itself is altered. Half-worlds like those attached to Tovag Baragu multiply a millionfold, taking on parallel realism in what was before a unified Prime Material Plane. The concept of alternate dimensions rears its metaphorical head, but doesn't yet solidify, and perhaps it never will. New realms, both near and far, are revealed and realms never previously imagined make themselves known. Entities long thought lost emerge once more, while other creatures, both great and small, are inexplicably eradicated. Some common spells begin to work differently. The changes do not occur immediately, but instead are revealed during the subsequent months. However, one thing remains clear: Nothing will ever be the same again."


I don't know about the rest of you, but I find the timing extremely interesting. Whereas before I was looking at it funny and thinking "why did an event on Toril effect everything, everywhere?", I now realize that perhaps other major WSE's were taking place across the cosmos, and the end result was something... profound.

Ergo, the Spellplague was just one 'wave' in a multi-spheric storm.

Note that Bruce Cordell was one of the designers of that product, as well as one of the key people involved with the 4e Realms (and I'm not putting any kind of 'dark conspiracy' spin on that - I just find it interesting, is all). That product - DV,D! - was designed to usher-in the changes between 2e and 3e Greyhawk, and I find it kinda cool (in weird way) that the events taking place at the same time (in the D&D universe) also explain the changes between 3e and 4e in FR.

So while GH was moving from 2e to 3e (in D&D's timeline), FR was moving from 3e to 4e.

I figure, by the time the planer-shockwaves hit Dragonlance we should be in 5e; are we ready for Die Takhisis, Die!?
19   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Jakk Posted - 21 Feb 2012 : 21:10:14
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by Jakk

(Bold emphasis mine) It seems that we've just established canonical precedent for parallel worlds, and therefore a 5e Realms canon that evades the Spellplague without evading it on all possible Torils. Just thought I'd point that out.


-The Forgotten Realms specifically already has canonical alternate dimensions. Darkvision's plotline is heavily involved with a parallel dimension. The details of it is fuzzy since it's been a while, but the twin sister that Ususi was regularly dreaming of and coming into contact with wasn't a twin sister, but was actually Ususi from a parallel dimension, who was influencing Ususi from the canonical Forgotten Realms to stop Pandorym, because Pandorym ravaged the world in the parallel dimension that parallel dimension Ususi came from.


Many thanks, LK! I've fallen behind on the FR novels, and have more or less given up on catching up on anyone except Ed, Erik, and Paul... although if Elaine and/or Steven Schend were to return to FR novel writing, I'd probably have to make time for them, too...
Lord Karsus Posted - 20 Feb 2012 : 05:22:57
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk

(Bold emphasis mine) It seems that we've just established canonical precedent for parallel worlds, and therefore a 5e Realms canon that evades the Spellplague without evading it on all possible Torils. Just thought I'd point that out.


-The Forgotten Realms specifically already has canonical alternate dimensions. Darkvision's plotline is heavily involved with a parallel dimension. The details of it is fuzzy since it's been a while, but the twin sister that Ususi was regularly dreaming of and coming into contact with wasn't a twin sister, but was actually Ususi from a parallel dimension, who was influencing Ususi from the canonical Forgotten Realms to stop Pandorym, because Pandorym ravaged the world in the parallel dimension that parallel dimension Ususi came from.
Jakk Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 03:34:54
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Hmph

So I was talking about 5e a year ago, eh?

LOL



It's almost enough to make other scribes ask what your secret is, Mark...
Markustay Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 20:30:33
Hmph

So I was talking about 5e a year ago, eh?

LOL
Jakk Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 03:27:36
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I hadn't realized this before, but the Spellplague took place at the same time as Die Vecna, Die!. Here is a quote from Wikipedia, taken (presumably) directly from the end of the product -
quote:
"Even with Vecna's removal, his time in the crux effected change in superspace. Though the Lady of Pain attempts to heal the damage, the turmoil spawned by Vecna's time in Sigil cannot be entirely erased. Some Outer Planes drift off and are forever lost, others collide and merge, while at least one Inner Plane runs "aground" on a distant world of the Prime. Moreover, the very nature of the Prime Material Plane itself is altered. Half-worlds like those attached to Tovag Baragu multiply a millionfold, taking on parallel realism in what was before a unified Prime Material Plane. The concept of alternate dimensions rears its metaphorical head, but doesn't yet solidify, and perhaps it never will. New realms, both near and far, are revealed and realms never previously imagined make themselves known. Entities long thought lost emerge once more, while other creatures, both great and small, are inexplicably eradicated. Some common spells begin to work differently. The changes do not occur immediately, but instead are revealed during the subsequent months. However, one thing remains clear: Nothing will ever be the same again."



(Bold emphasis mine) It seems that we've just established canonical precedent for parallel worlds, and therefore a 5e Realms canon that evades the Spellplague without evading it on all possible Torils. Just thought I'd point that out.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I don't know about the rest of you, but I find the timing extremely interesting. Whereas before I was looking at it funny and thinking "why did an event on Toril effect everything, everywhere?", I now realize that perhaps other major WSE's were taking place across the cosmos, and the end result was something... profound.

Ergo, the Spellplague was just one 'wave' in a multi-spheric storm.

Note that Bruce Cordell was one of the designers of that product, as well as one of the key people involved with the 4e Realms (and I'm not putting any kind of 'dark conspiracy' spin on that - I just find it interesting, is all). That product - DV,D! - was designed to usher-in the changes between 2e and 3e Greyhawk, and I find it kinda cool (in weird way) that the events taking place at the same time (in the D&D universe) also explain the changes between 3e and 4e in FR.

So while GH was moving from 2e to 3e (in D&D's timeline), FR was moving from 3e to 4e.

I figure, by the time the planer-shockwaves hit Dragonlance we should be in 5e; are we ready for Die Takhisis, Die!?



So, WotC: When is this title coming out?

Still, I find this very interesting in the context of the new edition announcement and what little is known about the Realms in 5E. Hopefully WotC can give us enough information to put SOME of the speculation to rest long before the 5E Realms sees print.
Markustay Posted - 14 Apr 2011 : 18:45:26
OH... and obviously the guys at WotC were very impressed with his timelines as well.

If they did have some 'deeper, nefarious scheme' behind some of the changes (like the new cross-setting novel series), wouldn't they want to put out a tome that further substantiates some of what they are planning? It would seem to me, that if Brian's timeline(s) backed-up some of what they had been considering, then we can see why - at the tail-end of 3e with 4e well on it's way - they would rush the publication of Brian's work to help validate his other work (and whatever plans they may have had in the process).

Or, conversely, it may have just been something they themselves only just noticed (as I did), and decided to 'run with' for a cross-over.

But I do find the 1385 date suspiciously coincidental.
Alisttair Posted - 14 Apr 2011 : 12:01:17
IT'S A CONSPIRACY!!!
Markustay Posted - 13 Apr 2011 : 22:16:32
Well, as we all know, its not very easy to get ALL lore to 'line-up' precisely, even within a single setting, so I am still amazed by the bang-up job he did with that chronology.
The Sage Posted - 13 Apr 2011 : 01:39:55
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I believe Brian R. James' Temporal chronology of the Primes was based upon several cross-setting events (like the Cloakmaster cycle).


It was, but I've found at least one discrepancy on that list. TSR actually provided some dates for syncing events, and Brian's chronology uses different dates.

Indeed. As I recall, Brian, in a past discussion about that particular chronology, said something about devising a way of correlating inconsistent temporal references, which unfortunately led to a number of minor discrepancies.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 12 Apr 2011 : 18:19:54
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I believe Brian R. James' Temporal chronology of the Primes was based upon several cross-setting events (like the Cloakmaster cycle).


It was, but I've found at least one discrepancy on that list. TSR actually provided some dates for syncing events, and Brian's chronology uses different dates.
Thieran Posted - 12 Apr 2011 : 13:46:48
I still find it a bit hard to believe (suspend my disbelief) that time passes at the same rate on different Primes/that they share the exact astronomical conditions, which is after all the basis of any such easy conversion as adding a number; but I guess I have to live with that. See the discussion in this scroll: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12913
Markustay Posted - 12 Apr 2011 : 08:24:08
I believe Brian R. James' Temporal chronology of the Primes was based upon several cross-setting events (like the Cloakmaster cycle).

As has been pointed out before, Wizards traveling through the planes to other prime worlds don't necessarily arrive at times 'current' in their respective spheres.

For instance, if the 4e Elminster went to go visit Ed, he'd probably wind-up a short time after his last visit, rather then a century later, when there would be no 'Ed' to speak to (and feed him hotdogs and other junk-foods). The wizard's three could be arriving from completely different periods in time.

According to Brian's timeline (which never failed me before), you simply add 797 to the CY-GH calender to get the FR-DR calender date.

Does anyone know how to report bad wiki info? Some moron included a 'personal story' about his gaming group in the Vecna entry {Head of Vecna} - that's precisely the kind of crap that makes Wiki useless half the time.
Kerryth Silver Posted - 11 Apr 2011 : 23:35:32
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


I hadn't realized this before, but the Spellplague took place at the same time as [i]Die Vecna, Die!



An interesting bit of speculation, but probably incorrect. We know from the "Wizards Three" articles by Ed Greenwood that 1361DR coincides with 581CY. Thus; "Die, Vecna, Die!", which takes place in 591CY, corresponds with 1371DR. Or, the conversion from 2e to 3e.
Markustay Posted - 11 Apr 2011 : 19:04:18
All things considered, I've decided - being a fan of the mega-setting that IS D&D - that I will be buying and following the storyline of the Abyssal Plague. A good, multi-spheric romp is just the thing, I think, to get things flowing smoothly again.


Cheers --- Markustay
Brimstone Posted - 11 Apr 2011 : 07:15:05
Just cause someone is dead doesn't mean they cant die again!
Markustay Posted - 11 Apr 2011 : 06:38:23
My thoughts exactly, Brim. Die Vecna, Die! took place from 1381-1386 DR, which is precisely when the events leading up to the death of Mystra, and then the spellplague, took place (including a wee bit of the aftermath).

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

Except that, Takhisis is ALREADY dead.
So is Vecna.
Brimstone Posted - 11 Apr 2011 : 05:41:03
Abyssal Plague...
Ayrik Posted - 11 Apr 2011 : 05:22:54
quote:
Arik

I have recently examined a vast number of other D&D chronology attempts [mostly at www.planewalker.com], most of which are incomplete, inaccurate, poorly researched, unique homebrew, or rampantly speculative.

However, A Temporal Chronology of the Primes (by Brian James), Forgotten Realms Timeline (by Krashos and others), A Spelljammer Timeline - revised (by GMWestermeyer), and - just for completeness - Known Chronological Listing of Realms Novels (by Boyd, Greenwood, Schend, and "The Candlekeep Monks") are all very well done and might assist ye in many projects. I suspect the first and last are likely used as the primary "official" sources for Wizbro's D&D designers and authors.
The Sage Posted - 11 Apr 2011 : 01:22:49
Except that, Takhisis is ALREADY dead.

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