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 What exactly are the Elder Treants?

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Barastir Posted - 04 Mar 2011 : 14:15:42
I have some questions about Elder Treants/ arakhora...

Are they very powerful treants that existed in a distant past, and now are asleep? All of them? If so, did they already have their huge size back then, or they only grew to colossal proportions after going to sleep? Can the ones that are asleep be somehow awakened? Who or what created them (the LeShay, Elven High magic, the gods)?

And finally: where can you find the arakhora? I've only heard about the Grandfather Tree, but I think it is hinted that there are (or were) others...
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Markustay Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 19:36:48
There is still some leeway there - it doesn't precisely say the two goddesses created Chauntea.

What could have happened (in theory) is something akin to someone simply stirring the primordial pool, and out crawled life. They could have been catalysts, rather then creators. A bit of a stretch, granted, but feasible.

I can fix this with the second part of that (that Chauntea was once part of 'something greater'), but I don't know if I care to. At this point, I find my proto-cosmology moving further and further from FR canon, so it may not be appropriate for me to share my ideas any further on this forum.

I was researching other (canon) creation-sources, and got some good bits from the 2e Draconimicon, but still no idea why I felt Chauntea was the 'mother goddess' figure in the FR mythos. I need a 'divine feminine' to make everything (in my version) work, and using Selūne/Hecate would be going WAY back to some of my earliest conjecturing (pre-FR, back when I ran GH).

I suppose I could use some of the info regarding Lilith/Eve from the other thread, if I equate Ao with 'Adam' (which could work - religions are just based upon allegories). Hmmmmm... 'the god of all'... the Adama.... interesting possibilities THERE. We also have the twin facets of the Halfling goddess Yondalla... just maybe...

Anyhow, definitely moving well away from the purposes of this thread. Sorry everyone.
The Sage Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 00:34:24
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I'm trying to figure-out WHY I ever thought Selūne and Shar were daughters of Chauntea.
Maybe you were thinking of Earth's own relationship with the Moon, and how certain creation theories -- like the giant-impact hypothesis -- suggest that the Earth-Moon system was the result of an massive impact with the proto-Earth. Thus, the Earth "giving birth" to the Moon?
Markustay Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 00:24:09
They may both be aspects of Emmantiensien. I have been espousing my theories about how the deities we know (the regular D&D/Fanasy gods) are merely aspects of greater powers, in the same manner that Chosen represent the powers above them (and that a Chosen/Exarch is little more then a self-willed Avatar - a bit of divine power placed within another vessel).

So, going with that take, Sylanus and Rilifane are merely two aspects of the primordial power Emmantiensien - the human and elven aspects. It means that while they are separate entities, they are also at the same time part of something greater. In the same way that my thumb and pinky are separate fingers of my hand, and my hands are two appendages that are part of me (the greater whole). No-one would ever say my pinky and thumb were the same finger, and yet, they go together with the hand (which, in this analogy, would be Emmantiensien).

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


So Chauntea is Selūne's daughter? Since when? Why did I always think it was the other way-around?



Since 2E. Page 141 of Faiths & Avatars:

quote:
Eventually this primordial essence coalesced into twin beautiful goddesses who were yin and yang to each other; they were so close they thought of themselves as one being. The Two-Faced Goddess created the heavenly bodies of the crystal sphere and together infused them with life to form the Earthmother, Chauntea. (Although Chauntea has since contracted her essence to encompass only Abeir-Toril, in the beginning she embodied all matter in Realmspace.) This new universe was lit by the face of the silver-haired goddess, who called herself Selūne, and darkened by the welcoming tresses of the raven-haired goddess, Shar, but no heat or fire existed within it.


Yeah, I re-read that after my post.

I'm trying to figure-out WHY I ever thought Selūne and Shar were daughters of Chauntea. I thought my (false) knowledge was based on that paragraph, but unless I read it wrong (EACH time I read it), then I can't understand how I kept making this very fundamental mistake. It may have been the 'Earthmother thing, but still... I can't believe I have always gotten this backwards...
Gray Richardson Posted - 10 Mar 2011 : 14:37:54
More than ever, I suspect Rilifane to be an aspect or fragment of Emmantiensien. Or maybe a separate aspect/fragment of the World Tree, of which Emmantiensien also is.

Come to think of it, Emmantiensien could be the Torilian incarnation of the World Tree, while Rilifane could be the Feywild aspect. At some point, when elves migrated to Toril from Faerie, they brought the worship of Rilifane to Toril with them. So now you have two different conceptions of the same god/entity.

Who knows, Silvanus may be yet a third conception of the same god. The human conception.

In fact, I am now beginning to think that Celts (or Gauls) migrated to the Realms in ages past and brought their pantheon with them, including Oghma and Silvanus. However, while Oghma has thrived, Silvanus was absorbed/merged into the human conception of Emmantiensien/Rilifane/The World Tree. Silvanus may be a native Torilian deity bearing only the name of an interloper, human god.

Although, it's possible that in merging with the human god, he absorbed some of the personality and other traits of the interloper Silvanus.

Silvanus may perhaps be more of a fragment than an aspect of the World Tree. Sort of an alternate personality of the World Tree that has split off and become an independent entity. To that extent, Silvanus and Rilifane might be truly separate beings. Or maybe not, maybe they are just split personalities of the same god. Although, these things can be fuzzy, so to what extent any of that is true cannot be known.
Barastir Posted - 10 Mar 2011 : 12:24:45
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson

I'd like to work Verenestra, the dryad goddess, into the mix somehow. Not sure how the dryads relate to the treants, but I need to cogitate on it some more.


I remember reading somewhere that Verenestra had an affair with Rillifane Rallathil.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 10 Mar 2011 : 11:49:09
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


So Chauntea is Selūne's daughter? Since when? Why did I always think it was the other way-around?



Since 2E. Page 141 of Faiths & Avatars:

quote:
Eventually this primordial essence coalesced into twin beautiful goddesses who were yin and yang to each other; they were so close they thought of themselves as one being. The Two-Faced Goddess created the heavenly bodies of the crystal sphere and together infused them with life to form the Earthmother, Chauntea. (Although Chauntea has since contracted her essence to encompass only Abeir-Toril, in the beginning she embodied all matter in Realmspace.) This new universe was lit by the face of the silver-haired goddess, who called herself Selūne, and darkened by the welcoming tresses of the raven-haired goddess, Shar, but no heat or fire existed within it.
Markustay Posted - 10 Mar 2011 : 06:39:29
Interesting.

I had something similar in-mind when I was writing my eastern lore for K-T and the hordelands history. I used pyramids instead, built by the Maraloi (ancient Fey), which held back the cold in their ancestral lands for centuries (until the creation of the Mountain of Iron, which 'shorted-out' the fey magic and allowed the cold to finally envelop the northern reaches).

I was only going with pyramids because there a bunch of ancient ones mentioned already in canon lore that aren't connected to anything. Perhaps unearthly crystalline spires would work even better....

So Chauntea is Selūne's daughter? Since when? Why did I always think it was the other way-around?
Gray Richardson Posted - 10 Mar 2011 : 04:59:47
So, in my Aearee article in the Candlekeep Compendium Volume VII, I wrote the following paragraphs below involving an arakhor named Mornungongbarae. As a preface, I should mention that during the Long Night of the Sevenfold Winter, emboldened by the cold, the uldra sprites from the colder, frozen parts of Faerūn encroached into the High Forest seeking to expand their territory. The Aearee-Syran efforts to warm the North (with giant crystal towers, similar to the bukhara spires that they learned to build from the Batrachi) brought them into conflict with the uldra, and war broke out. This is what I wrote below:

quote:
In the north, the Aearee-Syran came into conflict with the Winter Queen of the Uldra fey over their efforts to warm the land. Frost giants from the Kingdom of Ottar joined with the Uldra, and a great war erupted throughout the High Forest as tribes of sprites and other fey folk were drawn into the conflagration on both sides. The battles raged for many years, but, in the end, the Armies of Ice were driven back to the Spine of the World, defeated as much by the returning sun as the tactics of the Aearee forces.

Skilled and gracious priests of Syranita from the aerie of Phwiukree negotiated a treaty with the OverKing of the High Forest sprites. Together they planted an arakhor sapling, Mornungongbarae, a celestial tree-spirit of divine lineage – said to be descended from Emmantiensien himself. In the shadow of the Star Mounts, deep within the Unicorn Run, the little sapling grew to tower above the High Forest, guarding the pledge of friendship between the two races, a peace that would last nearly a thousand years.


The article goes on to cover a lot of intervening history, culminating with the rise of the Aeng-Shara rookery, a powerful, fortified, floating city of the Aearee-Quor, that swept northward conquering other Aearee enclaves and aeries in the name of Pazrael.
quote:
The shadow of Aeng-Shara fell upon the High Forest as the Sharan juggernaut floated relentlessly northward to engage the Aearee-Syran at Phwiukree. Honoring ancient treaties, the sprites came to aid their avian allies against the aggressors. But Sieska’s arcanists slaughtered the fey with fireballs, thunderbolts, and necromantic miasmas that drew the lifeforce from their tiny frames.

In the initial volleys of the assault on Phwiukree, the peerless arcanists of Aeng-Shara easily broke through the spell mantles that protected the aerie. Magical energies coursed down upon the mountain peaks, shattering the crystal spires of the Aearee-Syran.

Down below, the arakhor Mornungongbarae, who had guarded the High Forest for nearly a thousand years, drew strength and nourishment from the soil of Chauntea for the unimaginable feat he was about to undertake. Mystical roots tapped the Weave itself for raw magical power. Pulling it into himself, he powered a miraculous transformation. Silverfire coursed through his xylem and phloem.

Expanding his tissues, he multiplied himself in size, growing in scant instants a thousand wing-spans into the sky. Towering over the forest, the largest being ever to grace the face of Toril, his massive roots buckling the earth below as he tried to steady himself, Mornungongbarae poised to strike against Sieska’s terrible city.

His timbers cracked and splintered as he struggled to maintain the magic that sustained him. Like a flower bending to face the sun, Mornungongbarae now leaned toward the Sharan rookery. All the branches of his fantastic frame entwined themselves around Sieska’s citadel, canting it at a violent angle. Many hundreds of invaders fell from the walls as Mornungongbarae cemented his hold.

Then, as magic failed him, the timber of his immense trunk shattered with a clap of thunder. The elder tree fell, crashing down upon the slopes of the Star Mounts, his great weight wrenching Aeng-Shara from its lofty heights. His tragic sacrifice is still sung by treant skalds today, in a saga called The Lament of Mornungongbarae.

The rookery smashed into the mountain face, disintegrating into a cloud of debris. The mythallar cracked open and evaporated in a gout of mystic flame. The Sharan tyrant was dead.

The aerie of Phwiukree was demolished, but the war with Shara was ended. The eastern aeries of the Aearee-Syran survived, enduring an uneasy détente with the Sharan empire to the south.


In light of the Emmantiensien lore, I'm now thinking that Emmantiensien dropped one of his arakhor acorns in the High Forest at some point when he passed through during the Long Night. The acorn must have been recovered by the Aearee, or the sprites, before it had a chance to germinate.

Sometime after the sun returned and peace was finally established between the Aearee and the fey -- some several years after the Sevenfold Winter ended -- the Aearee-Syran and the sprites planted the acorn together.

Initially I was thinking that arakhora were always trees, remaining rooted their entire lives. But now I am thinking that Mornungongbarae spent a number of years, decades, or possibly even centuries in treant form roving the High Forest before he settled down and took root in the Unicorn Run. Though he was well established in his tree form by the time that Aeng-Shara attacked, almost a thousand years later.

The high magic he used to grow so high is reminiscent of the myth of his father, Emmantiensien. In fact, in his hour of need, I can imagine Mornungongbarae crying out to his father, with a great rumble that reverberated like low thunder off the side of the Star Mounts, carrying across the canopy of the High Forest for leagues, and leagues, and leagues: "Father! Aid me!" And in an echo of Emmantiensien's myth, the mystic energies that infused Mornungongbarae caused him to grow tall as well, a mythopoeic recapitulation of his father's epic deeds.

I should note that the giant crystal spires that had warmed the High Forest during the Long Night were shattered by the fall of Aeng-Shara, where their shards lay in ruin to this day. See The Savage Frontier p.50-51 and The North pp.7, 51, 57 for references to the ruined towers.

Parts of that Candlekeep Compendium article were canonized by Brian James in the Grand History of the Realms p.8, an honor for which I will be eternally grateful to him.
The Sage Posted - 10 Mar 2011 : 04:45:48
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson

I'd like to work Verenestra, the dryad goddess, into the mix somehow. Not sure how the dryads relate to the treants, but I need to cogitate on it some more.

An angle I've wanted to play up is the legend surrounding the animated spirits of great old oaks becoming dryads.

Maybe, instead, when a treant begins to reproduce, the spiritual energy that would come to be born in the off-shoot, instead wanders away from the protection of the female -- perhaps carried upon the wind -- and becomes a wilder, more exotic spirit. Without the guidance of its parents, the spiritual off-shoot gradually adapts to life on its own, taking temporary root in a grove or divine natural preserve, whereupon chance contact with demihuman forms, like wild elves, results in the spirit evolving into a proto-dryad. Eventually, the proto-dryad will outgrow the confines of the grove itself, and seek to wander [and protect] the entire surrounding forest.

I suppose this might emphasis a particular "rarity" when it comes to the birth of dryads, but... it's something to think about.
Fellfire Posted - 10 Mar 2011 : 03:57:08
And if dryads and treants do have a connection, where do Satyrs [ahem] fit in? Pretty little tree-children and randy goat-boys? They're not even in the same kingdom, yet supposedly the male and female of the species (if that's even the correct term.)
Gray Richardson Posted - 10 Mar 2011 : 03:39:01
I'd like to work Verenestra, the dryad goddess, into the mix somehow. Not sure how the dryads relate to the treants, but I need to cogitate on it some more.
The Sage Posted - 10 Mar 2011 : 00:33:49
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I found Barkburrs in the 1e MM2, which seem to have a similar dynamic; they are capable of 'tree-afying' (called 'lignification') sentient creatures and turning them in treants and other woodland creatures.
Oooh! I knew I'd forgotten something cool.

And I know I've got notes somewhere in my files that make a connection between the origins of certain dryads, and the barkburrs.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 23:19:05
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I found Barkburrs in the 1e MM2, which seem to have a similar dynamic; they are capable of 'tree-afying' (called 'lignification') sentient creatures and turning them in treants and other woodland creatures.

Just thought you might want to keep that in-mind for a final draft - seems related.

quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson

Which one? Did you mean Asgorath, the mother of all dragons? Or Selūne, the mother of Chauntea weeping tears at her daughter Chauntea's mortal injury? I think I worded it right, but sorry if it was unclear.
Isn't Chauntea Selune's mother?

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

Are you including rubber trees as well, Gray?
Weren't rubber trees first planted by the Trojans?





Chauntea is the daughter of Shar and Selūne.
Markustay Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 21:34:39
I found Barkburrs in the 1e MM2, which seem to have a similar dynamic; they are capable of 'tree-afying' (called 'lignification') sentient creatures and turning them in treants and other woodland creatures.

Just thought you might want to keep that in-mind for a final draft - seems related.

quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson

Which one? Did you mean Asgorath, the mother of all dragons? Or Selūne, the mother of Chauntea weeping tears at her daughter Chauntea's mortal injury? I think I worded it right, but sorry if it was unclear.
Isn't Chauntea Selune's mother?

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

Are you including rubber trees as well, Gray?
Weren't rubber trees first planted by the Trojans?

Barastir Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 19:32:48
Great, Gray!

I think the most appropriate High magic ritual would be the Saloh'Cint'Nias / Gift of Alliance. The 2e sourcebook Cormanthyr - Empire of the Elves states that "This ritual allows a High Mage to call upon the ancient allies of the Tel'Quessir for aid in the defense of an elven realm. The summoned aid is often in animal or monstrous form, though the creatures tend to match both the surrounding area and the caster's alignment."
Gray Richardson Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 14:37:25
Oh, it also occurs to me they might have made a pact with him, since he was going to be sedentary, they could have promised to be his agents or perform services for him. Act as guardians of the forest and such.

Come to think of it, there could have been some kind of binding ritual that bound the elves to the service of the treant in exchange for his planting himself there. Not sure what such a high magic ritual would involve, or what kind of terms it would entail, or even that there was one, but I could see it happening.
Gray Richardson Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 14:31:41
Elves practically revere the arakhora, they don't control them. In fact, they probably consider them demi-gods, or divine beings, if not outright gods.

Any control the elves exerted over the arakhora would be through a pact of some kind, diplomacy or friendship. But surely the arakhora and the elves had a great overlap of outlook and purpose. They shared similar goals, and so I think they would tend to become great friends, or at least allies.

I imagine that when they were young the arakhora could walk around, like a treant, and that they only became rooted with great age. When they "installed" the arakhor, it merely involved convincing him that it would be a good place for him to take root and settle down.
Barastir Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 13:20:50
Wonderful, Gray. It seems we share two areas of interest: biology and mythology. Are you a biologist?

Just one more question, this time about the relation between arakhor and elves, guys. Would these two races be simply allies, or the elves would have some sort of control over the arakhora? I'm asking it because that Mintiper's entry states clearly that the elves installed the arakhor over the ancient temple...
Gray Richardson Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 06:26:27
Oh I didn't mean to imply he seeded new types of trees on Toril. First, it's a myth, and myths speak in broad truths but ignore the details. Don't hold me to the particulars.

Second, I think I mentioned that he scattered the fruit of every living tree, and what I meant by that, at least in my mind, was that what was extant in Toril, he replenished. I figure that, being an eco-minded god, he would be careful about the ecological niches, and scatter location appropriate seed. So that the rubber trees stayed in the south, the pine trees in the north, the mangroves in the swamps, and the baobabs wherever the hell they come from (the Little Prince's planet I think) and so on. He more than anyone would not want to destroy any microcosms. Other than the arakhora, I doubt he would have introduced any alien species.

What I was envisioning was that his roots were probing the ground, sensing what was there, maybe revitalizing the dying shoots and seeds that were already in the ground, and replicating the seeds he had to to fill in the gaps for the things that had died off completely.

The only slightly inappropriate thing that he might have done was bring back extinct species that had died out in the distant past, things that had already died out long before the Tearfall event. Probing the soil he might have come across some ancient remains of dead species that he could not distinguish from more recently deceased specimens. So the only invasive species he might have reintroduced were ones that were displaced in time, not in location or environmental niche.

Another thought that occurred to me was that all that ash might bring a tremendous amount of nitrogen back into the soil and act as fertilizer to help kickstart things. Part of that revitalization could have been a natural process.

I hear some seeds won't even germinate in certain areas until there is a forest fire. They lay dormant until the heat of a fire activates them. They wait for a good periodic fire to clean out the brush and competing trees above, and when things are cleared they go for it and try to grow as fast as possible so as to establish themselves big and strong before competing plants can grow over them and block out their sun and establish their root base. In parts of the American west, a year after a devastating forest fire the world erupts in green and the ecosystem recovers. It evolved to thrive under those kinds of conditions. So part of Faerūn's recovery might have been just business as usual and may have occurred regardless of divine assistance.

As to where he went after, well, he was just an avatar, or a manifestation more like. He was temporary. Once his purpose was served I think he would have rejoined the World Tree. Or gone back to the Feywild. Did you ever read Brin's Kiln People? Maybe something like that.
The Sage Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 04:49:18
Actually, keeping with the discussion on which tree types Emmantiensien was responsible for seeding on Toril...

I'm starting to envision a kind of multiversal scope to his reach. When Gray said, earlier, that the Lord of All Trees was gone, I started thinking about just "where" he might have journeyed to next.

Perhaps he sought to spread his seed upon other worlds/crystal spheres as well -- like Krynn and Oerth -- which could help to explain why those worlds also have species of trees similar to Toril, such as cedar and elm for example.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 04:23:57
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson

Do you have any favorite Realms trees you would like to suggest for inclusion in future drafts? I started to mention the mighty weir, my own favorite, but didn't include it for some reason. I think I was going for prosody when I wrote that line.



No real favorites, but I personally would include at least one or two of those types mentioned in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical*. Like I say, just a tiny bit of something Realms-specific to tie it into the setting more closely. (Not that you've not done a good job of that! It's just something I would do.)



*(formerly a suppressed work )
The Sage Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 04:11:37
Are you including rubber trees as well, Gray?

I know they're found only in parts of the far South, but the "reach" of Emmantiensien should encompass all parts of the continent.
Gray Richardson Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 03:50:13
Do you have any favorite Realms trees you would like to suggest for inclusion in future drafts? I started to mention the mighty weir, my own favorite, but didn't include it for some reason. I think I was going for prosody when I wrote that line.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 03:38:25
Nicely worded, friend Gray.

I have a slight quibble myself, though. I would mention a couple of the Realms-specific trees in there -- just to give it that additional tiny amount of Realmslore.

And perhaps refer to the falling of seeds as a gentle rain. Hail works, but hail can also be rather damaging.

Whether or not you agree with my suggestions, it's a great bit of lore you've composed.
Gray Richardson Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 02:10:27
Which one? Did you mean Asgorath, the mother of all dragons? Or Selūne, the mother of Chauntea weeping tears at her daughter Chauntea's mortal injury? I think I worded it right, but sorry if it was unclear.
Markustay Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 01:57:02
Beautiful. {wipes tear}

Just one quibble - I think you meant 'daughter' when you typed 'mother'.
Gray Richardson Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 01:13:59
The Myth of Emmantiensien:

When the dragon-mother Asgorath hurled her ice moon down on Toril, it carved a mortal wound into the heart of the One Land. The life blood of Chauntea welled up to fill the great gash, forming the waters of the Sea of Fallen Stars. Fires raged across Faerūn, and ash rained from the sky to veil the face of Chauntea, enveloping her in a cold, grey shroud.

Her mother thought her dead and wailed in grief. She wept so hard that the tears of Selūne still hang in the sky to this day. But Chauntea was not dead yet, and her children below struggled to preserve her.

The Aearee cast their magics to warm the world and nurture what life remained. But the LeShay — the fey creator race — worked harder still. The LeShay prayed to the World Ash. And the Great Tree answered them, sending Emmantiensien into the world.

Some say he strode through a portal from the Feywild. Others say he sprang from a tiny acorn, growing to a fantastical height in all of a moment. Sages argue whether he was 300 feet, 400 feet or even seven miles high, but they all agree he could stand astride the Demlimbyr with plenty of room to spare between his massive, burled trunks.

For seven years the treant god walked the face of the One Land, from one shore to the other, and back again. With every breath his powerful lungs inhaled the ash and smoke and filtered it from the air. The transpiration from his leaves sprinkled mist on the ground below, a sweet balm to soothe the burnt skin of Chauntea. Seeds fell from his branches like hail; oak, and ash and poplar. Mulberry, sycamore, pine and baobab. Mangrove, cedar and laurel; he scattered the fruit of every living tree. With each step, his roots broke the crust of the soil, piercing holes to receive the seeds. And at his passing, a swath of green erupted in his wake.

For each forest he restored, the Treant Lord dropped a single, golden acorn that would grow into an arakhor, a treant-father, called great protectors by the elves. The seeds of the arakhora, in turn, spawned the first treants — tenders and guardians of the forests.

At the end of the Long Night, after seven years of ice and ash, the sun dawned again across the face of the One Land. Chauntea awoke from her deathly slumber, and the world rejoiced. When the first red rays of morning touched his leaves, the Tree Lord began to grow. Ten leagues high, a hundred leagues high, a thousand leagues high; Emmantiensien grew up into the sky until the great canopy of his leaves cast one final shadow across the continent and obscured the vault of heaven.

By the time that night had fallen, Emmantiensien had grown so tall that the top of him vanished into the Sea of Night and was lost among the stars. Stars! They could see stars again! The children of Toril marveled at the stars that shined from between his branches like glistening drops of dew upon his myriad leaves.

By midnight, his colossal, gnarled feet uprooted themselves and began to draw up into the sky. When next the sun rose, the Lord of All Trees was gone. He had pulled his great trunks up behind him into the night, and was never seen again to walk the land.

Even today, when you gaze up at the night sky, you can see him still up there, set among the stars as the constellation Arshanta, which means "great tree" in the elven tongue. There he rests, his trunks rooted deeply in the soil of night, drinking deep the silver moonlight and basking in the glow of stars. From the vault of heaven he stares in adoration at the face of Chauntea and watches over her, patiently, ever vigilant, until the end of time.
Markustay Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 20:15:24
Interesting (as always).

I thought Entherjar sounded a little familiar - was unaware of the name-shift from einherjar. Since I have always equated those beings with 'Norse angels', it makes perfect sense IMHO (they should be Exarchs, I would imagine, by 4e terminology).

I made another change to my mental picture of the Feywild upon reading this last night - the part that correlates with Faerūn now has a MASSIVE (as in mile-high) tree growing on it. In fact, unless you are VERY far away from it, you can't even tell it's a tree (and the entire Faerie Court resides 'beneath' it). Something like THIS.

I have to think more on the tree-grafts things - there is definitely something there. I recall from the Narnia novels (which Ed borrowed from) that the Wardrobe was made from wood that was linked to Narnia, and that is why an intermittent gate persisted within it. extrapolating further from that. Perhaps all 'world tree' wood is linked in some mystical way, and those bounds continue to persist even after the tree is cut.

Its been so many years since I read those books - I stupidly lent them out - but IIRC, the tree was part of the 'Creation' that Aslan set in motion, so the wood was 'imbued' with whatever passes for this 'life energy' (which I believe Ed uses in some form, and may be Radiant energy). Could the World Tree be a source of this 'Radiance'?

EDIT: Perhaps Emmantiensien was/is an archfey, who linked his spirit-form to the World Tree, in much the way Dryads link themselves to Trees, or other fey link themselves to waterfalls and groves, or lakes and rivers. I have theory about 'primordial times' in regards to The Fey (as in, LéShay), that their original connection to the world was corrupted, and that they either had to flee to the Feywild, or 'anchor' themselves to the Material World through aspects of the natural world (similar to how Kami/Spiritfolk are viewed in the east).

So while Emmantiensien may have originally been an Archfey, maybe the World Tree was something 'beyond the gods' (like Ed's 'watching Gods', which I refer to as Ordials). By combining the energies of both, a hybrid 'deity' was born.

The original Arch-Fey - those LéShay that had acquired enormous personal power - may have all had to do something similar, or maybe did so willingly (part of my theory is that this is how the Realm of Faerie was created in the Feywild - by a sacrifice of Danu, the mother of Titania).

Hmph... I just had another epiphany, concerning some of my notions about 'Overminds'. I need to either start a new Fey thread, or further derail Quale's.
Gray Richardson Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 09:45:10
Entherjar = einherjar, the spirits of the Norse valiant dead who live in Valhalla. They are statted on p.199 of the 3e Deities & Demigods sourcebook and specifically given quasi-deity traits. I was just making a pun, but it fits with arakhora maybe being quasi-deities with DVR 0.

As for Emmantiensien being the avatar for the Celestial World Tree, yes it is possible. In fact, I seem to have a half-remembered memory of Ed Greenwood saying something to that effect in his thread. Though it may be false memory syndrome. Need to do a search to verify.

Of course, if so, that would mean Emmantiensien was a true god -- or something close to it. Not an arch-fey or a primal spirit. The Celestial World Tree is a feature of the Astral Plane, formerly linking the various astral domains of the gods together. I am unclear as to whether it touched the Prime Material Plane or the Feywild.

Are you familiar with the concept of grafting? Where plant tissue from one species is grafted onto another plant? Sometimes done because you need a delicate feature like a fruit or flower to grow on a more hardy stem that is perhaps disease or pest resistant. There are other reasons to graft plants as well. Anyway, maybe Emmantiensien is actually an arch-fey, but also an aspect of the Celestial World Tree. Perhaps he is something like a graft. Essentially a transplant from the Astral onto the Feywild. A cutting from off the World Tree that grew in the soil of Faerie and became a native arch-fey.

Or maybe he was a transplant from the Astral into the Prime. Perhaps he IS more like a primal spirit. Almost like a plant messiah. He was an incarnation of the World Tree born in the soil of Toril to save the forests. An inphloemation or maybe inxylemation, if you will. And from him the treants were born. So in a way, treants could be both interlopers and native in that their "father" was a migrant, but as a race they were born on Toril. Same as dragons, actually, in that Asgorath was from another plane, but laid (or transformed) dragon eggs that hatched on Toril, spawning her race in the Material Plane.

Just a thought anyway. Of course, that doesn't necessarily jive with the treants being "fey." They would need to be from the feywild, at least originally, to have the fey type, right? So that sort of points to Emmantiensien being an arch-fey. But it's something to think about.

Markustay Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 07:19:30
Entherjar? Its not ringing a bell.

I like your thoughts about how the race developed; its very similar to how I feel the Fey/Eladrin/Elf relationship works (which makes perfect sense, given the nature of all these creatures).

A powerful immortal race begets semi-divine (near-immortal) children, who then bear mortal offspring.

And by 'Fey' I mean the Fey Creator Race - the Le'Shay - NOT the fey over-group which includes all creatures with origins pertaining to the Feywild. Treants are fey, but not THE Fey (annoying vestige of old lore there).

Could Emmantiensien simply be the Avatar/Awareness of The World Tree itself? I would think such a massive, celestial life-form should have some sort of divinity associated with it.

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