| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Aryalómë |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 21:10:21
I was pretty excited to finally get my hands on a copy of the new FR Player's Handbook a couple months back, but under the Eladrin races, only the Sun Elves and Moon Elves were listed. But in the FR Campaign Guide, it mentions Star Elves briefly about how they lived in the Yuirwood and Yuirshanyaar. I have, as of late, been using the Eladrin model like you do for Sun and Moon Elves to create a Star Elf character (but have never been able to play them because i have no one to play with :( ) and used the physical appearance of the Star Elves, while applying the Eladrin stats. So I'm wondering, why didn't they include the Star Elves in the PH? And does anyone know of their current situation? Also, the same goes for Avariel (except I haven't created an Avariel). Please fill me in on details! :) |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Diffan |
Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 02:54:07
Well I'm all for it, though I've only ever submitted 1 thing to WotC and I never even got a letter saying "We Regret to inform you..." but I figured it wasn't put together well, in all honesty, so I wasn't all that suprised
As Erik is an actual author of FR fiction, I'm expecting him to pull the leg work for getting things through the door  but I'll do whatever is in my power to get this done. I've always had a fondness of the Star elves as they don't see a lot of love in 3E and less in novels. Though I think Stardeep is set in Sildëyuir, which I currently have and should start reading, lol.
Anyways, always looking for new ventures so I say lets give it a shot! |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 19:34:36
I would like to see that too. Sounds like a team-up to me! |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 12:38:09
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I was already thinking of that, Alisttair. Diffan, would you be interested? It's sure to be time-consuming, thankless, and laborious, but hey, you never know. 
Cheers
Nay! I thank both of you (Erik and Diffan) in advance (whether it actually sees print or not).  |
| Diffan |
Posted - 14 Feb 2011 : 19:53:33
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I was already thinking of that, Alisttair. Diffan, would you be interested? It's sure to be time-consuming, thankless, and laborious, but hey, you never know.
Cheers
My name in print?! Where do I sign up? |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 14 Feb 2011 : 19:26:20
I was already thinking of that, Alisttair. Diffan, would you be interested? It's sure to be time-consuming, thankless, and laborious, but hey, you never know.
Cheers |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 14 Feb 2011 : 18:44:36
Make the star elf feats official - team up and get Wizards to accept it for Dragon |
| Diffan |
Posted - 14 Feb 2011 : 17:36:31
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Very nice. Well done, sir!
Though personally, since Star Elf Presence is RIDICULOUSLY more powerful (no action auto-daze in a close burst 1 that targets only enemies? Wow!) than Star Elf Glamour (which is well balanced), I'd recommend making Star Elf Presence a paragon tier feat and slapping a requirement of 11th level on it.
Cheers
Yea, I realize that now, lol. Thanks for pointing that out. My Game Designer-fu isn't fully up to par with 4E yet. As for the prereqs for the Star Elf Presence, I like the paragon tier requirement. Definitly a good choice. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 14 Feb 2011 : 17:36:28
Or just implement any subrace mechanics you like. They can always be adjusted if/when WotC releases official rules, so you can whichever flavour D&D you prefer without waiting indefinitely. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 14 Feb 2011 : 17:09:14
I want to add two things:
1) The various races DO have floating ability score bumps (that's one of the best additions of the Essentials expansion). Eladrin currently have +2 Int and +2 Dex or +2 Cha, while Elves have +2 Dex and +2 Int or +2 Wis. Personally, I would have preferred both stats to be floating (i.e., your eladrin has two of the following stat bumps: Dex, Int, Cha, and your elf has two of the following bumps: Dex, Int, Wis), but I can understand why they did it the way they did.
2) To reiterate something I said before, subraces may well be addressed in a more official capacity later. Keep advocating for them to be addressed, but don't cross into the "why won't WotC give us this?" realm of protest.
Cheers |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 14 Feb 2011 : 16:58:04
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
How 'bout this:
Star Elf Glamour: As you shift through Sildëyuir, you take some of that plane's etheralness with you. When you use your fey step racial power, you become insubstantial until the beginning of your next turn.
Special: You cannot take this feat if you have the Moon Elf Resilience or Gold Elf Grace feats.
OR
Star Elf Presence: Your otherworldy presence is something to behold, dazzling your foes as you teleport to and from of Sildëyuir. Whenever you use your fey step racial power, any enemies you teleport adjacent to become dazed unti the beginning of your next turn.
Special: You cannot take this feat if you have the Moon Elf Resilience or Gold Elf Grace feats.
There, hopefully that's a bit more flavorful and more Star Elvish than what I came up with before.
Very nice. Well done, sir!
Though personally, since Star Elf Presence is RIDICULOUSLY more powerful (no action auto-daze in a close burst 1 that targets only enemies? Wow!) than Star Elf Glamour (which is well balanced), I'd recommend making Star Elf Presence a paragon tier feat and slapping a requirement of 11th level on it.
Cheers |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 23:21:49
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I am not a fan of giving racial modifiers to sub-races, because I am uneasy when humanocentric RPGs do it with humans (like Iron kingdoms).
Even when it is a fantasy world, we can usually associate a group with a particular RW culture, so isn't it insulting to do so indirectly? If the khards (the Slavo-Russian like group of IK) have a -1 to intelligence, aren't we calling Russians 'stupid'?
What if I decided that Kara-Turrans should get a +1 to Int and a -1 to Str, because they are "smarter then caucasians but smaller and not as physically imposing". Would that be okay? After all, they aren't a RW culture so why not? Don't you think Yao Ming (the basketball player) would have something to say about being called 'puny'?
I dislike stereotypes because they open up a can of worms. By modifying the stats you don't just change the average, you also change the high and low end of the scale, which is just plain wrong to me. You are saying that a Wood elf could NEVER be as smart as a gold Elf, and I just can't abide that. I think the Gold elves are just 'smarter' because they have more opportunities at 'higher learning' then their more rural cousins.
That's why I do not like these modifiers for sub-races - if they were real people instead of just fantasy tropes, don't you think those stat-mods would be highly insulting?
There are other ways to show the Gold Elves being of 'higher learning' without resorting to heavy-handed methods, but unfortunately D&D rules aren't really designed with finesse in mind (ANY edition). For instance, you could do something like roll 2D6 and one d4+2 for Gold elves, which only changes the average result without adjusting the extremes of the bell-curve. Not a perfect solution, but one workable within the rules-structure as presented.
I think environment counts a great deal more with sub-races then blood, and the elves all the more so. By their nature they are extremely adaptable (they can become water-breathers at-will, apparently!), so it makes more sense to me that the culture an elf is raised in would determine his stats more then his heritage. A savage (of any race) being brought into a city as an infant would NOT still be a savage upon reaching adulthood... and this is the kind of thinking that leads to racial modifiers for sub-races.
If anything, give Elves a 'floating' modifier that they could apply to either Int or Dex, and then there is no need to create separate subraces. It just seems to me like a lot of unnecessary redundancy. Drow, on the other hand, may be an exception - they have clearly 'evolved' into something else entirely. For this reason I don't take exception of Eladrin having separate stats from Elves, because the two have evolved in completely separate environments (so YES, elves from different worlds could have different stats).
Just my 2 cents, is all. Obviously most folks will disagree with me.
Well, if we carry this argument out to the next step, we wind up saying that elves are smarter than humans or that all dwarves are healthier. If it's okay to do it in that case, why not in subraces?
Racial stats are just a starting point. There is nothing that says stats are absolute; therefore, while one group may tend to excel in some areas but not in others, there are always going to be exceptions to the rule. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 21:53:00
I liked PH3; I was one of the people who wanted monks, for stylistic reasons more than anything else, and having minotaurs as a playable race was a very welcome addition.
In regards to races and classes, I'm one of the people who goes for concept over optimization. Right now I have a campaign with a drow swordmage and a drow invoker playing major rolls; stats wise they have no advantages in those classes at all, but they work for story purposes. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 21:21:08
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
3 Player's Handbooks!?! Oy Ve!
Well people cried for the Monk and other Psionic classes and of course the Gith races. And while we're at it, why not throw in Minotaur races as well? I wasn't espically thrilled with the PH3 as I didn't see any use for the classes therein. Ok, I take that back, I like Runepriests and Minotaurs. And the book did give us Hybrid options, which is sorta cool.
@ Markus: I can definitly get on board with you there with not having a bunch of sub-racial stat modifiers. As much of a fan I am of diversity, I'm more a fan of keeping it simple. A specific set of mechanics that govern a whole race is easier to conceptualize than each individual sub-race receives different stats, bonuses, skills, etc... |
| Markustay |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 20:45:11
I am not a fan of giving racial modifiers to sub-races, because I am uneasy when humanocentric RPGs do it with humans (like Iron kingdoms).
Even when it is a fantasy world, we can usually associate a group with a particular RW culture, so isn't it insulting to do so indirectly? If the khards (the Slavo-Russian like group of IK) have a -1 to intelligence, aren't we calling Russians 'stupid'?
What if I decided that Kara-Turrans should get a +1 to Int and a -1 to Str, because they are "smarter then caucasians but smaller and not as physically imposing". Would that be okay? After all, they aren't a RW culture so why not? Don't you think Yao Ming (the basketball player) would have something to say about being called 'puny'?
I dislike stereotypes because they open up a can of worms. By modifying the stats you don't just change the average, you also change the high and low end of the scale, which is just plain wrong to me. You are saying that a Wood elf could NEVER be as smart as a gold Elf, and I just can't abide that. I think the Gold elves are just 'smarter' because they have more opportunities at 'higher learning' then their more rural cousins.
That's why I do not like these modifiers for sub-races - if they were real people instead of just fantasy tropes, don't you think those stat-mods would be highly insulting?
There are other ways to show the Gold Elves being of 'higher learning' without resorting to heavy-handed methods, but unfortunately D&D rules aren't really designed with finesse in mind (ANY edition). For instance, you could do something like roll 2D6 and one d4+2 for Gold elves, which only changes the average result without adjusting the extremes of the bell-curve. Not a perfect solution, but one workable within the rules-structure as presented.
I think environment counts a great deal more with sub-races then blood, and the elves all the more so. By their nature they are extremely adaptable (they can become water-breathers at-will, apparently!), so it makes more sense to me that the culture an elf is raised in would determine his stats more then his heritage. A savage (of any race) being brought into a city as an infant would NOT still be a savage upon reaching adulthood... and this is the kind of thinking that leads to racial modifiers for sub-races.
If anything, give Elves a 'floating' modifier that they could apply to either Int or Dex, and then there is no need to create separate subraces. It just seems to me like a lot of unnecessary redundancy. Drow, on the other hand, may be an exception - they have clearly 'evolved' into something else entirely. For this reason I don't take exception of Eladrin having separate stats from Elves, because the two have evolved in completely separate environments (so YES, elves from different worlds could have different stats).
Just my 2 cents, is all. Obviously most folks will disagree with me. |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 16:24:55
3 Player's Handbooks!?! Oy Ve! |
| Diffan |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 15:59:34
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
In prior editions, you had to have certain ability scores to be certain classes, and it worked out with some races naturally being better at certain classes than others. I don't see why that's suddenly an issue, or why every single race/class combination has to be just as good as every other.
Yea, that was bad IMO. Though its still true that certain races are better at others. Dwarves for example, who have a +2 Con; +2 Str or +2 Wis, are naturally good battleminds, clerics, fighters, and invokers based on those stats where as an Elf (+2 Dex; +2 Wis or +2 Int) can be great avengers, druids, invokers, rangers, and wizards with some inclination towards Swordmages. This goes to show that while some races are GREAT at certain classes, it's not discouraged from others like Tiefling fighters, Eladrin barbarians, or Dwarf wizards. Sure, the specs aren't great but they're not hindered either. I think the flex stats are a better option than trying to create a whole new sub-race with special flavor and stats.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
When I'm making a new character, I go for concept, first, and then worry about the rules. If I want to play a moon elf fighter, I'm going to play a moon elf fighter, even if a gold elf or a dwarf or a half-titan would be slightly better. I don't need a ruleset to have a built-in equalizer to make me want to play a moon elf instead of a gold elf, or a shield dwarf instead of a gold dwarf, or even a human instead of a gnome.
I totally agree and understand as I do the same with my characters too. But what makes 4E really shine is that Eladrin (moon elves) can make for great fighters without worrying much about the stats. A +2 Dex, +2 Cha makes them better with Heavy Blades (longswords) and Polearms and their Charisma makes them a good face for the party and helps with social skills like Diploamcy, Bluff, etc... Before in v3.5 a Moon elf (+2 Dex, -2 Con) would be a much poorer choice for a fighter with that penalty to Constitution where as a Wood elf might be a much better fit since it receies better bonuses for a figher. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 15:03:03
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So while I agree that each subrace should have its own feats, traits, and cultural options, I don't see an issue with having minor physical differences from each other.
I think it's because if you start doing that, then specific sub-races start defining what kind of class your going to play. As all of the classes in 4E rely heavily on Ability scores, it'll make a big difference when choosing which "sub-race" of elven would be a better fit for a fighter (moon elf), wizard (gold elf), or warlock (star elf). As it stands, a Moon elf is just as good as being a wizard than a gold elf and a star elf is just as good at being a fighter as a moon elf. Mechanical advantages come from playing an Eladrin, not the sub-race.
In prior editions, you had to have certain ability scores to be certain classes, and it worked out with some races naturally being better at certain classes than others. I don't see why that's suddenly an issue, or why every single race/class combination has to be just as good as every other.
When I'm making a new character, I go for concept, first, and then worry about the rules. If I want to play a moon elf fighter, I'm going to play a moon elf fighter, even if a gold elf or a dwarf or a half-titan would be slightly better. I don't need a ruleset to have a built-in equalizer to make me want to play a moon elf instead of a gold elf, or a shield dwarf instead of a gold dwarf, or even a human instead of a gnome. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 11:02:46
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So while I agree that each subrace should have its own feats, traits, and cultural options, I don't see an issue with having minor physical differences from each other.
I think it's because if you start doing that, then specific sub-races start defining what kind of class your going to play. As all of the classes in 4E rely heavily on Ability scores, it'll make a big difference when choosing which "sub-race" of elven would be a better fit for a fighter (moon elf), wizard (gold elf), or warlock (star elf). As it stands, a Moon elf is just as good as being a wizard than a gold elf and a star elf is just as good at being a fighter as a moon elf. Mechanical advantages come from playing an Eladrin, not the sub-race.
Besides, I think that's why they invented Flex-stats in the Player's Handbook 3 and retro-fitted all the previous races with them. So now Eladrin gain +2 Dex; +2 Int or +2 Cha which can mechanically influence what sub-race of eladrin you want to play as a Gold elf would most definitly choose +2 Dex, +2 Int where a Moon or Star elf would more likely choose +2 Dex, +2 Cha. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 04:49:30
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Two sets of mechanics are one set too many, IMHO - there are other ways to differentiate the subraces (like using cultural feats, racial traits, weapon choices, magic, etc). To me, those things define a 'sub-race'. If you start changing stats, then that's a RACE, plain and simple.
I dunno, I don't see a problem with mechanics helping define a subrace. All elves are long-lived, have pointy ears and an innate connection to the Weave. Just because one group is more dextrous and the other more charming, it doesn't change the fact that they still live for half of forever with their pointy ears.
So while I agree that each subrace should have its own feats, traits, and cultural options, I don't see an issue with having minor physical differences from each other. |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 03:55:18
You want to play a star Elf? BE a Star Elf... its that simple.
Well said Markus. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 03:20:02
Lets not have another thread slide downhill please.
The subraces have been relegated back to the DM's job, as so much of D&D used to be in the elder days of yore. Funny how when folks get used to something they start to expect it.
Two sets of mechanics are one set too many, IMHO - there are other ways to differentiate the subraces (like using cultural feats, racial traits, weapon choices, magic, etc). To me, those things define a 'sub-race'. If you start changing stats, then that's a RACE, plain and simple.
The basic model for a PC race should be included in the rules, and anything pertaining to culture should be in the setting guides or (more likely in 4e), the DM's imagination. 'Flavor' shouldn't be part of D&D rules (other settings have rules built specifically for them, but D&D isn't made like that - its generic fantasy). Star Elves fall under 'flavor', and that's why I think their omission is no big deal.
The best thing 4e ever did was give DMs back the reins of the game. Imagination is what D&D is really all about, not how many books you own, or the sweetest build you can come up with.
You want to play a star Elf? BE a Star Elf... its that simple. |
| GMWestermeyer |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 21:42:05
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
This is one of those instances where the needs (or requirements) of the latest edition of D&D game rules trumps setting lore.
Not a need or requirement, just the opinions of the designers. You know, that revolving door of employees down at WOTC.  |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 19:02:35
As a curiosity — We have gold, silver, copper, and mithril elves. It might be argued that drow are adamantium elves. Are there any platinum, bronze, iron, or steel elves? Are gold/silver halfbreeds called electrum elves? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 14:42:45
I like elves, but I've never seen a use for Star Elves -- at least not as a separate race. As a sort of subrace of another elven race (like a similar but slightly different version of moon elf, perhaps), they would have worked better for me. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 06:23:25
Ok, admittedly giants are no where near as iconic as the dragons are. But elves are no where near as iconic as dragons are, either. Except maybe drow.
Granted, I am admittedly and unashamedly bais in this regard; I simply do not like elves of any sort. Well. There are a few concepts for elves that I liked alright but they never made it into the finished product of their respective settings. |
| Galuf the Dwarf |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 03:51:08
I have been working on stats for the various subraces of Eladrin, mostly Moon Eladrin, Sun Eladrin and Star Eladrin. Just haven't quite figured out what to give them for racial traits/powers. So far, though, here's what I've got.
Star Eladrin
Average Height: 5’5”-6’0”
Average Weight: 125-175 lb.
Ability Scores: +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Low-Light
Language: Elf, Common, Sylvan
Skill Bonuses: +2 Arcana, +2 Nature
Play a Star Eladrin I you want…
• to play a race that favors the bard, sorcerer, swordmage, and wizard classes.
Moon Eladrin
Average Height: 4’5”-5’5”
Average Weight: 125-175 lb.
Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Low-light
Language: Common, Elven, Orc
Skill Bonuses: +2 Acrobatics, +2 Arcana
Play a Moon Eladrin if you want
• to play a race that favors the ranger, swordmage, warlord and wizard classes
Sun Eladrin
Average Height: 4’9”-5’6”
Average Weight: 135-185 lb.
Ability Scores: +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 Squares
Vision: Low-light
Language: Common, Elven, Sylvan
Skill Bonuses: +2 Arcana, +2 History
Play a Sun Eladrin if you want
• to play a race that favors the paladin, swordmage, warlock and wizard classes.
|
| Diffan |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 03:47:23
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
The subraces are still there--there just isn't as much distinction in mechanics among them. There's absolutely no reason you can't take an eladrin and play him/her as a star elf--as you seem to have been doing.
I approve of Diffan's suggested feat, though I'd probably have made it something like when you feystep, you gain concealment, or each adjacent enemy suffers -2 to the next attack roll it makes before the end of your next turn, being dazzled by your otherworldy presence. Something of that nature, which I find more interesting than plain old combat advantage.
And you never know when some crazy designer (like myself, for instance) is going to create more specific rules that show up in a DDI article of a forthcoming sourcebook.
Cheers
That's a much more rich and detailed idea than CA, though I thought of the feat on the spot. How 'bout this:
Star Elf Glamour: As you shift through Sildëyuir, you take some of that plane's etheralness with you. When you use your fey step racial power, you become insubstantial until the beginning of your next turn.
Special: You cannot take this feat if you have the Moon Elf Resilience or Gold Elf Grace feats.
OR
Star Elf Presence
Prerequisites: Eladrin, 11th level
Your otherworldy presence is something to behold, dazzling your foes as you teleport to and from of Sildëyuir. Whenever you use your fey step racial power, any enemies you teleport adjacent to become dazed unti the beginning of your next turn.
Special: You cannot take this feat if you have the Moon Elf Resilience or Gold Elf Grace feats.
There, hopefully that's a bit more flavorful and more Star Elvish than what I came up with before.
EDIT: Thanks to Erik for pointing out some balancing issues with Star Elf Presence. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 03:30:53
 |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 01:02:31
The subraces are still there--there just isn't as much distinction in mechanics among them. There's absolutely no reason you can't take an eladrin and play him/her as a star elf--as you seem to have been doing.
I approve of Diffan's suggested feat, though I'd probably have made it something like when you feystep, you gain concealment, or each adjacent enemy suffers -2 to the next attack roll it makes before the end of your next turn, being dazzled by your otherworldy presence. Something of that nature, which I find more interesting than plain old combat advantage.
And you never know when some crazy designer (like myself, for instance) is going to create more specific rules that show up in a DDI article of a forthcoming sourcebook.
Cheers |
| Aryalómë |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 00:59:46
And since when were giants iconic and distinctive in FR? I find the Elves to be much more so. |
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