| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Weyr |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 04:57:45
Hail, most knowledgeable scribes.
I have a question that's been bothering me. I seem to recall reading somewhere that a planar being's soul and body are, for all intents and purposes, one entity. So, I wonder then--what would happen if a planar creature (not a petitioner) were to die? Would they be treated as a normal being, and go through Myrkul/Kelemvor's realm? |
| 16 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 03:05:07
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
The corpse issue has arisen before in my gaming. Specifically, what happens to the fiend's stuff when he dies/fades? Does a disarmed balor's sword disappear from the ground? Or from his opponent's hand?
Personally I would say that if a demon/devil etc makes anything from it's home plane or it's own essence, the thing created is separate from it's creator and not subject to banishment or forced return to it's home plane.
Intriguing.
I haven't yet had this dilemma, but I like this, in that it leaves a small 'trace amount' of some infernal (or other) plane behind, which 'someone' may someday come around to collect. If it was the property (as in, 'part of') some greater fiend, it would most-likely be him - or her - that came looking for his 'lost bit'.
Taking this a step further, even if it were a weapon of a lesser fiend it would still be part of the infernal plane - literally a piece of 'plane stuff' that got misplaced... and a piece that is tied to (and aligned to) its plane of origin. Such an item could cause taint or corruption (a common trope in fantasy). Not so original, per se, but an interesting line of reasoning as to the mechanic behind corruptive items.
The stuff that happens 'behind the curtain' is more important to me ATM because I am world-building, and I like things to have a very clear line of reasoning. For instance, I can now reason that the 'fiend stuff' (or Angel-stuff) returns to it's plane of origin, and dependent upon the sheer willpower of the being destroyed it could reform whole, or otherwise be re-absorbed into the plane (and be born anew as something else). What that does is give us a little leeway as to what can and can't reform automatically (meaning it's never 100% certain one way or the other). The same could apply to the time period it takes to reform, and even how long a banishment will last.
Ergo, the creature stops being just an extension of its plane at some point, as it achieves more free will.
I also like the Gygaxian take, KotG - thanks for posting that.  |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 22:58:39
Oops, double post.  |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 22:56:59
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
The corpse issue has arisen before in my gaming. Specifically, what happens to the fiend's stuff when he dies/fades? Does a disarmed balor's sword disappear from the ground? Or from his opponent's hand?
Personally I would say that if a demon/devil etc makes anything from it's home plane or it's own essence, the thing created is separate from it's creator and not subject to banishment or forced return to it's home plane. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 12:54:02
The corpse issue has arisen before in my gaming. Specifically, what happens to the fiend's stuff when he dies/fades? Does a disarmed balor's sword disappear from the ground? Or from his opponent's hand? |
| Shemmy |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 05:43:59
The precise answer varies wildly by edition. 2e Planescape had some of the most complication (IOW awesome) rules regarding what happened to various fiends etc if they were killed on their home plane, another plane, etc, while the 3.5 Fiendish Codex II had some cool ideas as well. For instance in 2e mezzoloths died regardless of where killed, but another one instantaneously spawned at the base of the one of the great 'loth towers from effectively the recycled essence.
In my own usage I generally have less powerful outsiders die if killed on their home plane, on other planes they die and their essence returns to their native plane and often vanishes into the plane at large or gets recycled into other creatures that spawn de novo. However in no instance do they leave a corpse if killed off plane. No animating dead fiends since there's no body/soul duality. That's cheesy and nonsensical to ignore IMO.
More powerful fiends are -again in my usage- weakened and banished if killed outside of their home plane, and reform back on their native plane in some appropriate amount of time usually by force of will. The more powerful the creature, the less time to reform. However during that time, their base of power may crumble as rivals and underlings try to jockey for power and position in their absence. The most powerful outsiders often require macguffins or other equal status outsiders to die in any permanent fashion. |
| Knight of the Gate |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 19:01:31
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
Sorry, Quale; I wasn't referring to humans born 'otherwhere'; only to non-mortal outsiders.
I did not refer to your post cause I had no idea what these 1e terms mean, the differences between spirit, essence and soul. Not sure, I think in 2e they are all the same. Then there's the book called Shaman that says spirits don't really exist, they are figments of imagination, created by emotions.
It's one of the difficulties of discussing this sort of thing: The terms have been repurposed numerous times over the years so that they often have the opposite meaning from what they once did. Because I'm an old fart, I tend to think of these things in terms of how I first came across them (which would mostly be 1E).
In his Dangerous Journeys game, Gygax used a set of terms that I like better than any of the D+D terms. He referred to outsiders/planars/etc as 'Supernatural' and things from the Prime which were 'non-natural' as 'Preternatural'. The distinction allows you to differentiate between a Supernatural Vampire (for instance) and a Preternatural Vamp. The former is a demonic entity that sucks life force, the latter is a mortal who was cursed/corrupted/etc to live forever and suck blood/breath/whatever. The distinction (in that game) is one between the UnAlive (the Supernatural) and the UnDead (the Preternatural). The UnAlive were never born; they were created, either at the dawn of the universe, or by a more powerful entity. In those terms, an Angel, a Modron, a Demon, or a Deva are all Supernatural, and they are comprised of 'essence', and do not *have* souls so much as they *are* souls given physical form. |
| Quale |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 18:37:03
quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
Sorry, Quale; I wasn't referring to humans born 'otherwhere'; only to non-mortal outsiders.
I did not refer to your post cause I had no idea what these 1e terms mean, the differences between spirit, essence and soul. Not sure, I think in 2e they are all the same. Then there's the book called Shaman that says spirits don't really exist, they are figments of imagination, created by emotions. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 17:54:28
Pre-3E rules described humans having souls, elves having spirits, planars (outsiders) having essences (and dragons having anima, dwarves/etc not really specified). The distinction was evolved from some classic arbitrary Gygaxism and really didn't matter until it was time to figure which version of the resurrection spell needed to be obtained when somebody died.
KotG and Quale are both correct; the essence (or whatever) of dead planars tends to somehow move back to the native plane, where it is sometimes reformed (often as something "lower" on the food chain). Sometimes these essences can't/don't go where they're supposed to (or they don't get collected, whatever) ... these can sometimes drift indefinitely as lost ghosts, or irrevocably destroyed, or sometimes transform into some other planar matter. I think the distinctions were made in planescape, where the question of dead PCs needed to be addressed. |
| Knight of the Gate |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 17:30:06
Sorry, Quale; I wasn't referring to humans born 'otherwhere'; only to non-mortal outsiders. |
| Quale |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 17:05:21
Not all planars are made of soulstuff. Planars include humans born in the planes, githzerai etc. They have extradimensional blood and lack the silver cord. When they die in the Prime their spirits have to make the journey to their home plane/realm on their own, using gates and similar means. |
| Knight of the Gate |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 15:59:33
The key here is the word soul: Planars don't have them. They are comprised of spirit (or, if you prefer, essence) which returns to its source when discorporated. That source is (depending on the origin of the planar in question) either the plane that spawned them, or the Power that manifested them. In D+D mortals are a crunchy physical shell surrounding a creamy soul interior- planars are spirit given form, which is why (in older editions, at least) you need magical or special weapons to hit them. This is also why mortals run the gamut of alignments (i.e. free will) and planars are almost invariably of the alignment of the plane or Power that created them. |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 09:11:47
Ah ok thank you. Never herd this one and allready thought the author may have ment planetars. |
| Zireael |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 08:36:23
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
What are planars?
Creatures whose native plane is other than Material Plane. Demons, devils, celestials, whatever else. The word "planar" I think comes from Planescape setting. |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 08:27:14
What are planars? |
| Weyr |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 05:37:43
That's what I thought, regarding the demons and devils. However, it makes me wonder if other planars are sent back to their 'home plane'. To my recollection, those in say...Sigil, or Arcadia aren't necessarily stuck there unless they become petitioners. So, that's why I wondered where they did venture to on their demise. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 05:09:08
I know that if you kill a demon or a devil, they're banished back to the abyss/baator respectively. I believe slaying elementals may send them back to the elemental chaos, but it could just destroy them.
I don't believe they're bound to Kelemvor's realm at all; his domain is for mortal souls, not the souls of planar creatures. |
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