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 Why do Realms authors put up with it?

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T O P I C    R E V I E W
Ayrik Posted - 01 Jan 2011 : 23:43:26
THO offered some interesting comments in Questions for Ed Greenwood (2011) [Page 1], including:
quote:
The Hooded One

[Pundits] make the basic mistake of applying THEIR ... viewpoints to an invented fantasy setting ... Such posters then sit in judgement [and cherry-pick], as all gamers tend to, in a manner that would be considered rude at best ...
Thinking about her commentary made me realize that certain authors, in particular those who write D&D/FR fanfic, seem to endure a lot more unjustified (and yes, sometimes simply rude) criticism than authors of other genres would have to tolerate. Why is this the case?

Sure, there are some FR novels I don't like. Often by the same authors who've written FR novels I do like. But what is it I personally don't like in some FR novels?

  • Sometimes the characters behave in a manner that I find objectionable. Perhaps in a way that violates my moral/ethical sensibilities. Or perhaps in some way which I feel is inconsistent, illogical, or explained unsatisfactorily; sometimes the decisions and actions of a character just strike me as "out of character", random, inexplicable, or completely dumb.

  • Sometimes content and elements are introduced into the setting which I feel, for whatever reason, just aren't appropriate and somehow "don't belong". The Realms setting is one that is constantly changing, and like anything else, not everyone (including me) is going to agree that every change is acceptable or an improvement.

  • More extreme than above, sometimes novels introduce very disruptive (RSE) changes to the setting; in a way, some part of the established setting is forever lost or destroyed. Or a character I like is removed or altered. Sometimes I find these changes unpalatable, other times I mislike the particular method which implements them.

  • Sometimes the writing itself is just poorly handled or outright bad. Or, if not bad, then at least not as good as I'd expect the author could (and should) have produced. Some authors have greater skill at telling tales (and fortunately, most of the FR crew can be counted among these) - though sometimes the story itself is just told badly, is predictable, poorly structured, or (in the case of FR books) contrived to merely announce or detail newly synthesized D&D game elements.

  • Sometimes there's nothing wrong with the book at all. It could be a masterpiece. I just don't happen to like it.


  • More about the first point: I think it's unfair to judge the morality and ethics (and even personal preferences) of an author through his depiction of characters. Antagonists tend to be villainously amoral while protoganists tend to be unrealistically pure paragons; skilled authors move past the melodrama and into the drama, where archetypical definitions become blurry and characters may evolve through several "shades of grey" (or even switch) roles. True enough, an author might write in disturbing detail about sadistic, inhuman, or darkly perverted, repulsive and disturbing things - and much might be revealed about the author's own capacities through this writing - but the author is not the predatory sexual offender or demented psychopath he has constructed and portrayed for a story. We all know that. But (as THO pointed out) people seem to automatically assume a recurring character is some kind of Mary-Sue window into the author's imago. Drizzt is not a Mary-Sue (or at least, not RAS's Mary-Sue, more of an iconic "Canon-Sue" that has been fabricated by popular demand); I say this because RAS has written many books which do not contain any Drizzt (or photocopied Drizzt-like variations) at all. Likewise, Ed has portrayed numerous characters who are not Mary-Sues; the notable exception (in my mind) would be early Elminster, who is not at all the same character as recent Elminster. Every experienced storyteller (including DMs) can conjure up tons of fictional characters, the vast majority of these are not Mary-Sues.

    I'll point out these faults apply to all fiction and are by no means limited to FR titles. They are also subjective, as the standards by which I judge novels will be different from yours, or even those of the authors themselves. Ed is just one author who has written some books I consider quite fantastic, some books which I feel are not as good, and even a few I find objectionable. And of course, many of us (including myself) need to temper our criticism with a reminder that we've never published a book ourselves.

    I'll ask my fellow scribes to not bash particular authors or books, nor argue about RSEs and D&D editions and such in this scroll. We all have our opinions, and no doubt even authors may sometimes view some of their own work as substandard or offensive, and their opinions might differ from our own.
    30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
    Lady Fellshot Posted - 06 Jan 2011 : 01:38:59
    quote:
    Originally posted by The Sage

    quote:
    Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

    And, no matter how "strange" relationships may be perceived in the Realms, Doctor's got them beat (well, if you mix reality and fiction ).

    The Doctor and his/a [Doctor's] daughter? Hehe... It's not that perverse when you're a Time Lord, I suppose.



    No, no no... Sage, that horrified screaming sound you hear in the background are the newly heartbroken fangirls giving voice to their grief.
    Erik Scott de Bie Posted - 06 Jan 2011 : 01:32:47
    quote:
    Originally posted by The Sage

    quote:
    Originally posted by Alisttair

    Ed is more like Elminster than he wants to let on.

    No, he's not. And we really don't need to go through this again. I tend to believe Ed's own words on this faulty assumption, and that should be the end of it.
    My fault for inflaming the analog, I suppose, with the observation about signings. These are actually evidence of people making certain assumptions about Ed, and him being too gosh darn polite to correct them.

    I for one know Ed fairly well--well enough to call him friend and email him when it's not pressing, just to make conversation--and while he does have a randy sense of humor sometimes, he is a class act and not at all a loveable, lecherous old goat. (Well, the loveable part, mayhap!)

    Cheers
    The Sage Posted - 06 Jan 2011 : 00:37:21
    quote:
    Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

    And, no matter how "strange" relationships may be perceived in the Realms, Doctor's got them beat (well, if you mix reality and fiction ).

    The Doctor and his/a [Doctor's] daughter? Hehe... It's not that perverse when you're a Time Lord, I suppose.
    The Sage Posted - 06 Jan 2011 : 00:36:12
    quote:
    Originally posted by Alisttair

    Ed is more like Elminster than he wants to let on.

    No, he's not. And we really don't need to go through this again. I tend to believe Ed's own words on this faulty assumption, and that should be the end of it.
    Ashe Ravenheart Posted - 05 Jan 2011 : 17:55:38
    And, no matter how "strange" relationships may be perceived in the Realms, Doctor's got them beat (well, if you mix reality and fiction ).
    Alisttair Posted - 04 Jan 2011 : 16:11:42
    Ed is more like Elminster than he wants to let on.
    Elfinblade Posted - 04 Jan 2011 : 16:07:25
    quote:
    Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

    I will say that I have consistently seen Ed signing ladies' body parts at GenCon and other conventions. Very amusing!

    Cheers



    The man's a rock star. No doubt about it
    Erik Scott de Bie Posted - 04 Jan 2011 : 15:27:18
    quote:
    Originally posted by althen artren

    Question Friend Eric,
    Have any of your female fans tried to seduce you?
    Maybe some are in it for the hot chicks!
    Ha! That'd be the day.

    Many of us authors are happily married, so I imagine it's not for the groupies. (Not that there's anything wrong with being a rock star, etc.)

    I will say that I have consistently seen Ed signing ladies' body parts at GenCon and other conventions. Very amusing!

    Cheers
    Lady Fellshot Posted - 04 Jan 2011 : 02:31:52
    quote:
    Originally posted by Arik

    I disagree, Fellshot. Fanfic authors are constrained by the requirement of maintaining comprehensive consistency in all setting elements, timelines, plots, etc.


    Does this take into account fan scribbles that were once consistent with canon but had to adopt the AU tag because the canon changed on them? There are quite a few "Drizzt had kids with Catti" stories that came out well before that particular plot bunny was killed off in canon. Then there's all the stuff that suddenly changed with the Spellplague.

    I think it's a little silly to denigrate non-insiders for not being able to see into the future, especially when one's canon seems to be pretty fluid at times. Or when something completely unexpected pops up.

    quote:
    Even the most minor inconsistencies and errors tend to draw a lot of criticism, I'd suspect the editors catch most of these, but I wouldn't be surprised if D&D authors spend a lot of time consulting with each other, reading obsolete sourcebooks, and sneaking around the internet to help iron out all the trivial problems. Just speculating, since I don't actually know how Wizbro really operates.


    Those editors don't catch everything, I might note. A bunch of nitpicky geeks will. Or is there some doubt as to the geekiness of fanficcers that I don't know about?

    I would hope that there's an effort by WotC to ensure at least setting consistency (if not narrative consistency) for everything put forth though.
    althen artren Posted - 04 Jan 2011 : 02:01:17
    Question Friend Eric,

    Have any of your female fans tried to seduce you?

    Maybe some are in it for the hot chicks!
    Dennis Posted - 04 Jan 2011 : 00:27:33
    quote:
    Originally posted by Arielis

    That second link was ridiculously hilarious!

    @Arik

    You're right. Sorry I went off topic. But without a doubt, I'd imagine that most of the authors don't really get much of a choice. They could choose to shut themselves away from their fans to avoid putting up with it, but then it's the fans that help keep their books successful.
    I think it's a kind of symbiotic relationship.



    Indeed. As I mentioned, they have but little choice---that is, if they wish to continue doing their craft and get compensated for it.
    Ayrik Posted - 04 Jan 2011 : 00:01:05
    I disagree, Fellshot. Fanfic authors are constrained by the requirement of maintaining comprehensive consistency in all setting elements, timelines, plots, etc. Even the most minor inconsistencies and errors tend to draw a lot of criticism, I'd suspect the editors catch most of these, but I wouldn't be surprised if D&D authors spend a lot of time consulting with each other, reading obsolete sourcebooks, and sneaking around the internet to help iron out all the trivial problems. Just speculating, since I don't actually know how Wizbro really operates.

    I think it's not unreasonable to assume D&D geeks, especially the lifers, are prone to dissect every minute detail - partly to "extract" or explain the lore in D&D gaming terms, partly because it's the sort of semi-obsessive behaviour which characterizes the (ISTJ) personality types which tend to be most strongly attracted/attached to RPG "simulations". Geeks are fanatics, easily demonstrated by allowing one to expound endlessly upon his area of expertise.

    I suppose many of the authors share these same geek/fanatic characteristics, thus explaining why they choose to continue writing FR instead of doing other stuff.
    Lady Fellshot Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 23:32:51
    I find it somewhat funny that we're using D&D/Realms based fan fiction as an example here. Since it is a shared universe or setting by definition there's more potential leeway for amateur authors because there has to be leeway for the gamers to do their thing. D&D based fan fiction actually falls in a nebulous grey area in the division between fanficcer and original writer, because the settings are designed with the intention of being open for fan modification.


    That vast swaths of amateurs prefer to do certain things but not others in a shared universe is a different issue entirely.
    Arielis Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 20:51:25
    That second link was ridiculously hilarious!

    @Arik

    You're right. Sorry I went off topic. But without a doubt, I'd imagine that most of the authors don't really get much of a choice. They could choose to shut themselves away from their fans to avoid putting up with it, but then it's the fans that help keep their books successful.
    I think it's a kind of symbiotic relationship.
    Therise Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 19:39:21
    quote:
    Originally posted by Arik

    Well, yeah. My OP was more about pointing out that FR authors put up with a lot of rude accusations. While nobody attacks George Lucas with overanalyzed claims that lightsabers and wookies are phallic symbols representing his deepset Freudian sexual perversions, or that Yoda is his way of compensating for other deficiencies, etc.

    Oh sure they do, and it's just as bad:

    http://famous-relationships.topsynergy.com/George_Lucas/

    http://www.zeek.net/film_05063.shtml

    http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/154398/how_to_read_george_lucas_mind.html

    quote:
    Ed's sexual activities and preferences are just nobody else's business. Especially in the neutered PG-13 Forgotten Realms. I understand (intellectually) why people fixate on it. I don't understand why the authors really put up with it. (Although, perhaps in Ed's case it's a variation of "sex sells" or he just likes to brag or keep people off balance. Just speculation on my part.)


    I agree, Ed's personal life is his own business.
    Ayrik Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 19:25:54
    Well, yeah. My OP was more about pointing out that FR authors put up with a lot of rude accusations. While nobody attacks George Lucas with overanalyzed claims that lightsabers and wookies are phallic symbols representing his deepset Freudian sexual perversions, or that Yoda is his way of compensating for other deficiencies, etc.

    Ed's sexual activities and preferences are just nobody else's business. Especially in the neutered PG-13 Forgotten Realms. I understand (intellectually) why people fixate on it. I don't understand why the authors really put up with it. (Although, perhaps in Ed's case it's a variation of "sex sells" or he just likes to brag or keep people off balance. Just speculation on my part.)
    Arielis Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 19:16:11
    But the fame for football players/movie stars/singers/etc probably also result in free drugs, booze, sex, and other free items.

    I'm going to assume that Forgotten Realms authors don't get this 'benefit'. So I have to imagine that it would suck a little bit more to get those kind of twisted analysis being done on you without all the cool perks.

    But at least you know that FR authors are really doing it because of the passion they feel!
    idilippy Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 19:09:29
    I think Therise hits a good point, it's not just the Realms authors that put up with this, but everyone in a field filled with fans. Building off her football example, go up to anyone who is a fan of college football, bring up the BCS vs. a playoff system, and watch the sparks fly. There are literally hundreds, possibly thousands of BCS vs playoff system articles by professional writers alone, let alone every blog, forum discussion, and TV/Radio segment on it. The BCS is worse, in terms of sheer size, of a fragmenting fanbase topic than any edition change or RSE. Each year you get dozens of different people with dozens of different playoff system ideas, others who think the BCS is ok but flawed, and more that think the system is perfect as is and there's no need to even consider a change.

    Anyways, I could keep going and point out arguments about rule changes and instant replay in baseball, football, the other football, and so on, but they're all small change compared to the BCS argument. Or we could talk about films, TV shows, other book genres, and music, all of which have the artist/actor/writer facing massive criticism no matter how their actual performance was. So, at least in part, Realms authors likely put up with it because that's the way the world is. Fans are fans and if you put yourself into the position where you are involved in their fan activity of choice, then you are pretty much guaranteed to receive terrible criticism from at least some fans.
    Ayrik Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 18:46:04
    Squicky, Wooly. Sex with a (nearly) perfect genetic copy/twin of yourself is maximum inbreeding. I won't even touch the rest of LL's dubious sexual mores.
    Wooly Rupert Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 18:36:20
    I just had a thought... As much as some people complain about Elminster's sex life and try to read into that, at least he's not Lazarus Long! Lazarus Long, too, had sex with nearly every female around him, but in his case, that also included his mother (she was already preggers, and he was time-traveling and posing as someone else) and possibly some of his own descendents. He also had sex with female clones of himself -- which was the topic of a recent discussion amongst myself and a couple of friends (they were undecided on whether or not that was as weird as I was thinking it was).
    Ayrik Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 18:30:35
    I think there's some misunderstanding about what the writers do.

    Fans are, by definition, somewhat obsessive. It's natural to want to improve things. So fans view novels as idealized works of art, requiring "perfection" in every detail. Each and every book should be a masterpiece. It would be nice if every book I've ever read was a masterpiece.

    But the reality is that some novels are better than others and most of them are simply "good enough". I'm not saying writers just hack out mediocre pulp to maintain income flow (though there certainly are a good number of these, lol). What I am saying is that writers typically have deadlines and milestones they have to meet, plus in addition to the usual storytelling demands they also need to maintain thematic consistency and meet other "preset" requirements. So - in the end - their books are only the best they can do while meeting time/money budget constraints. Maybe there's FR authors who feel they could/should have written some particular book a little better, certainly there's some FR authors who have commented that they accept (but don't always like) the fact that ruthless chainsaw editing is done to reformat their books before they hit market. I'm an efficient and industrious person, and I generally like to take pride in the quality of my work, but sometimes things just gotta be done "good enough" and left at that. The same must apply to writers, though at least they have the "advantage" of being able to rewrite and edit (or be edited), making final quality of their work better.

    I suspect many would-be authors get "stuck" trying to turn their first never-finished novel into an absolutely perfect masterpiece. There's probably some notion of becoming instantly rich and famous as a result of writing such an universally acclaimed novel. The reality is that the majority of writers aren't rich at all, and they need to keep writing to eat, and they need to constantly do legwork to advertise themselves. It's not about being the guy who painted the Mona Lisa; it's about being able to constantly turn out skillful portraits at a good pace to meet scheduled requirements.
    Therise Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 15:04:04
    Shared world fandoms present a lot of unique problems for authors that don't quite show up in other types of fandoms... or do they? Take football, for instance. We've all heard about the generic football fan that goes WAY over the top: guys who paint themselves in team colors, buy big foam fingers (or whatnot) and then go scream at players loudly during a game. Imagine if that same fan had (almost) direct access to the author of their fandom, like a coach or strategy planner: they'd yell loudly in the coach's face, argue every planned game strategy, etc... because they're a "true fan" and they think they know best. Some football fans do end up pestering players personally or even stalk them.

    How different is the over-the-top gamer from the over-the-top football fan? Some gamers engage in costume-play (compare with guys who buy specific team/player jerseys, or get almost naked and paint their chests and faces with team colors). Gamers engage constantly in "what if I could write it better than the author?" and football fans have "fantasy football" where they put together "dream teams" and whatnot. Gamers love their dice, miniatures and convention loot, football fans have zillions of team-related knick-knacks that they proudly display. Gamers have magazines and web forums to analyze and argue over minor details, and football fans have everything from TV commentary to their own webforums where they argue about "what ifs" and such.

    Once anything develops a fandom, crazy things start to happen. Granted, the Realms don't have as wide and large of a fandom as football, but I'd argue that the shared-world aspect gives gamer fans (of any setting) a much bigger sense of entitlement and personal investment than most other types of fandoms. For the Realms, or Grayhawk, or Eberron, or other settings, gamers write their own games, stories, and fanfics. It becomes "theirs" in a deep, personal way. Imagine if the over-the-top football fan had the very real opportunity to play (even once) with their favorite team and take part in trainings.

    Then take that same guy and say, "well, we're changing things up in big ways... some players are leaving forever, we may be changing ownership and even city venues, and we have brand new coaches that are changing the way we handle everything." The football fan might literally lose it.

    The very nature of the Realms' shared world is what encourages some fans to become highly invested, not only financially, but on a deep personal level that involves creativity and entitlement. "No one is ever going to tell me what to do in MY Realms," is a common thing to see on any gaming forum. And with many gamers who play the game for decades and who have built their own variant worlds with history and "life" for their playing groups, arguments will naturally breed strife when major changes happen to the core world.

    For authors, they almost don't have a choice but to open themselves up to the craziness. They could choose not to write, but what novelist-gamer wouldn't want his ideas incorporated into the core world? It's what authors do with the endless criticism and suggestions that matter. Listening to the fandom at large is good, but only to a point: authors in a shared world fandom must set their own boundaries or they'll get eaten alive and burn out.

    Erik Scott de Bie Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 04:33:04
    Well, speaking for myself and only for myself (as I always do), to address the OP, I "put up with it" because I love writing the stories I'm writing.

    Also there's money, but that's a minor consideration--there's no way I'd try to write for the FR if it was just about the money. There are much more effective/lucrative paths to professional writing.

    I write in the Realms and let the flak roll off me because I love doing it. Maybe I'm just a geek, but hey, it's good to be a geek.

    Cheers
    Alystra Illianniis Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 04:10:42
    I would second THAT idea!! Brilliant.
    Brimstone Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 04:07:56
    It should be Ed. That way you have no 'hidden agendas'.
    Dennis Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 04:06:43
    Why do Realms authors put up with it?

    Because like Hollywood stars, they have little choice.

    (More to come after I take my lunch.)
    Alystra Illianniis Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 03:28:58
    I think the inference there is that it's not, MrM. (That's IMHO, of course, but seems likely...)
    Mr_Miscellany Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 02:46:47
    quote:
    Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

    There used to be a designated "traffic cop" for the setting, who kept the continuity fairly straight. They've not had that particular position for a long time.
    For about nine years, as far as I can tell.

    At the start this role was filled by Jeff Grubb, right?

    Fast forward to 2001: Rich Baker held the post of Forgotten Realms Creative Director through the printing of the FRCS (see credits for same), but I'm not sure for how long he held that position. I'm also not sure how much influence Rich had on the novels side.

    Jump ahead to 2007 and the credits for the Grand History of the Realms list several managers—Editing, Design, Development—but no Creative Director.

    I wonder how it's call "kept together" in-house at WotC nowadays?
    The Sage Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 00:08:03
    quote:
    Originally posted by Therise

    quote:
    Originally posted by The Sage

    That's uncalled for, Therise. We can do without that kind of commentary.


    I'm speaking generally, of course. Misc reminded me that forum trolls generally tend to come out on the cusp of edition changes, often just to cause strife. I've seen them during the changeover to 2E, more with the change to 3E, and also with the change to 4E. Some are even so proud of it, they brag about it in their sigs or on other forums.
    Yes. Well, be that as it may, it's completely outside the context of the topic for this scroll. Please leave such comments aside, as they can easily be misconstrued, and will likely cause further problems as a result.
    Therise Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 00:06:07
    quote:
    Originally posted by The Sage

    That's uncalled for, Therise. We can do without that kind of commentary.


    I'm speaking generally, of course. Misc reminded me that forum trolls generally tend to come out on the cusp of edition changes, often just to cause strife. I've seen them during the changeover to 2E, more with the change to 3E, and also with the change to 4E. Some are even so proud of it, they brag about it in their sigs or on other forums.


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