| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| swifty |
Posted - 19 Dec 2010 : 22:26:26
after reading about magadons father in twilight war and how he was one of the rulers of the nine hells i wondered how the top devils compare to the top demons in the abyss.for instance does anyone know who some of the most powerful individuals are.surely there are plenty more powerful than errtu.and would any stand a chance against asmodeus. |
| 8 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 22 Dec 2010 : 23:33:04
As I see it, infinity is largely cheap in the outer planes. Since they're really conceptual realms with only the idea of space and time, there's no actual expansion of space involved, and really no space involved at all. All it means for a planar layer to be infinite is that a traveller can voyage across it till the end of time without ever reaching a boundary. This doesn't mean they're going to keep finding interesting places, of course, just that they'll keep encountering the idea of more space.
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| Ayrik |
Posted - 22 Dec 2010 : 19:27:32
The divine status of top Archdevils, Demon Lords, Celestial Paragons, and Archomentals is still evolving.
The wiki pages do a decent job of listing Forgotten Realms deities and D&D "core" deities. |
| Shemmy |
Posted - 22 Dec 2010 : 10:08:03
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
You're comparing the Archdevils of the Nine Hells of Baator against the Demon Lords of the (666?) layers of the Infinite Abyss.
IIRC, the '666' is more about the number of layers 'known', but the general consensus is that there are an infinite number of layers.
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Most of the Archdevils have divine ranks and powers, at least within their domains; Asmodeus, Mephistopheles, and Baalzebul certainly possess deity powers in fact if not in name; Gargauth and Tiamat are now deities who were once numbered among the Nine.
True, except for the divine rank part. In fact, one of them (Orcus/Tenebrous) almost achieved Godhood, but was stopped by adventurers in time.
A couple replies to a couple of things:
The 666 was only a 1e thing. 2e had the Abyss as infinite, and actually named several layers past the 666 mark (the number of the layer being the order in which it was recorded and detailed by the Fraternity of Order). 3e also had it as infinite, but some sources retconned the layers listed past 666 to give a bone to the folks who wanted to still play it as being limited to that number. I have no clue off the top of my head what 4e did regarding the number of layers of the Abyss since I haven't read the relevant books since they first came out.
Tiamat was never a devil nor a member of the Lords of the 9. That was retconned out for almost as long as I've been alive. Gargauth was likewise never a member of the Lords of the 9, though he was at one point possibly powerful enough to claim equivalent status, but ultimately grasped for too much beyond his capacity to hold it, was stripped of his rank, and exiled by Asmodeus.
And in general regarding divine rank among archfiends, it has changed so wildly among editions, and even within each edition at times. Orcus was originally detailed as a true deity and an Abyssal Lord in the 2e material relating to him/Tenebrous, and much of it makes the most sense when viewed in that context (Tenebrous being a shadow of his former self, slowly being devoured by the power of the Last Word since in the absence of his former divinity he no longer had the power to use it without it slowly consuming him, and he was racing against the clock, desperate to recover his wand and his former divinity). |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 20 Dec 2010 : 19:03:03
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
My earlier lore most certainly describes Mephistopheles, Asmodeus, Orcus, Lolth, and many others as being the equivalent of gods - maybe not called deities, maybe not as widely worshipped on the primes, maybe distastefully evil, yet certainly equal in power, stature, and abilities to accepted deities and powers. Most of the Nine and many of Abyssal Princes have widespread followings and draw divine power from places far beyond the boundaries of their layers or their planes. I'm of the opinion that non-celestial origins aren't of consequence, since there are plenty of examples of lesser (sometimes completely qualified) beings ascending to D&D godhood through any number of different methods. Admittedly, the "divine rank" mechanics didn't yet exist in that lore and these fiends didn't get any assigned to them when the material was presented, but it still seems evident to me that they possess enough divine energy to easily qualify as deities.
I dunno, I'm pretty sure that Archdevils/Demon Princes are nowhere near the league of deities in terms of power (even lesser powers). Look at what Mystra did in Elminster in Hell
/SPOILERS
She could have destroyed Hell with ease, or a big part of it, but she would have ended up opening rifts that would have placed the Realms in jeopardy.
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I know of one example from the novels where Mephistopheles consumes a healthy portion of Mask's (Shar's) divine power for lunch - and Meph is certainly inferior to Asmodeus. Yeenoghu, Juiblex, and Lolth most certainly are and always have been gods in D&D canon - yet if the Tanar'ri fiends have some number of deity-level leaders (plus their infinite hordes) and still cannot prevail in the Blood War then it can only be because the Baatezu leadership has similar (or even greater) deity-level power.
It was my understanding that the events at the end or the Twilight war trilogy happened just before the spellplague, when Asmodeus became a god himself. It means that no, Mephistopheles was not inferior to Asmodeus, for a short time. If Azuth hadn't conveniently appeared in a weakened state before Asmodeus, Mephistopheles probably would have become the ruler of Baator. And note that Mephitopheles gained Mask's power without resistance, he wouldn't have been strong enough to take it by force.
I also think that most gods in the Abyss took no important part in the blood war, they just reside(d) in the Abyss. I dunno, it doesn't seem to me that Lolth ever considered herself a Demon princess, or had any particular animosity against Baatezus. Might be the same for the god of Gnolls, slimes and minautors.
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
1E (MM1, MM2, MotP) clearly stated Tiamat was ruler of the first layer of the Nine Hells (Avernus). She was "transferred" to her current divine station in later lore, counterweighting against Bahamut.
I did not know that, interesting. Thank you for the info. Then again, being an Baatezu and ruling a layer are two different things, look at the Hag Countess. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 20 Dec 2010 : 15:06:30
Contradiction of canon, Kilvan. Or at least in interpretation of canon. I generally agree with you, except not on the defintion of who gets divine ranks.
My earlier lore most certainly describes Mephistopheles, Asmodeus, Orcus, Lolth, and many others as being the equivalent of gods - maybe not called deities, maybe not as widely worshipped on the primes, maybe distastefully evil, yet certainly equal in power, stature, and abilities to accepted deities and powers. Most of the Nine and many of Abyssal Princes have widespread followings and draw divine power from places far beyond the boundaries of their layers or their planes. I'm of the opinion that non-celestial origins aren't of consequence, since there are plenty of examples of lesser (sometimes completely qualified) beings ascending to D&D godhood through any number of different methods. Admittedly, the "divine rank" mechanics didn't yet exist in that lore and these fiends didn't get any assigned to them when the material was presented, but it still seems evident to me that they possess enough divine energy to easily qualify as deities.
I know of one example from the novels where Mephistopheles consumes a healthy portion of Mask's (Shar's) divine power for lunch - and Meph is certainly inferior to Asmodeus. Yeenoghu, Juiblex, and Lolth most certainly are and always have been gods in D&D canon - yet if the Tanar'ri fiends have some number of deity-level leaders (plus their infinite hordes) and still cannot prevail in the Blood War then it can only be because the Baatezu leadership has similar (or even greater) deity-level power.
1E (MM1, MM2, MotP) clearly stated Tiamat was ruler of the first layer of the Nine Hells (Avernus). She was "transferred" to her current divine station in later lore, counterweighting against Bahamut.
My understanding was that Orcus actually did achieve godhood several times, but meddling adventurers managed to keep him thwarted on each occasion; I might be incorrect on this, haven't read those modules in years. I'm not sure where (if ever) the "666" figure was presented in D&D, though it seemed to have been accepted as canon at least until later game edition rewrites categorically denied the value as being reliable (you're right, "infinite" is the technically correct term). |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 20 Dec 2010 : 14:27:28
Swifty, for more info regarding Archdevils and demon princes, check the Book of Vile Darkness and the Fiendish Codex 1 and 2, there are plenty of them. And yes, Ertuu was 'simply' a Balor, there are tons of demons stronger than him. |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 20 Dec 2010 : 14:24:44
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
You're comparing the Archdevils of the Nine Hells of Baator against the Demon Lords of the (666?) layers of the Infinite Abyss.
IIRC, the '666' is more about the number of layers 'known', but the general consensus is that there are an infinite number of layers.
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Most of the Archdevils have divine ranks and powers, at least within their domains; Asmodeus, Mephistopheles, and Baalzebul certainly possess deity powers in fact if not in name; Gargauth and Tiamat are now deities who were once numbered among the Nine.
Archdevils do not have divine ranks, because they are not gods. However, they are empowered by the souls of their layer, allowing them to grant divine spells to followers and to be much more stronger while in their domain. [/source FC2]
Asmodeus, Mesphistopheles and Baalzebul were angels of law before the creation of Hell, serving the deities against the demons. Gargauth and Asmodeus are now deities, and Tiamat was never a Baatezu, simply a dragon goddess who resides between the first and second layer of Baator. She has been exiled by her father Io after killing her brother (Io's first 'creation'). [/source Draconomicon]
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
A large number of Demon Lords also have divine ranks and powers; many are actual deities worshipped by various (monstrous) races throughout the cosmos (though many of these are relatively unknown or powerless in the Realms). The actual number of Abyssal layers has never been determined, nor have all their rulers ever been fully determined. There is always the possibility that some completely new (or ancient and forgotten) power of superior potency could emerge from the unfathomable depths of the chaotic evil Abyss.
True, except for the divine rank part. In fact, one of them (Orcus/Tenebrous) almost achieved Godhood, but was stopped by adventurers in time.
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
If you're asking about a throwdown between Archdevils (like Asmodeus, Mephistopheles, and Baalzebul) vs Demon Lords (like Demogorgon, Orcus, Graz'zt, Lolth, Juiblex, Yeenoghu, and Pazuzu - just to name a handful) then I have no answer for you. The Blood War has not yet determined a victor. It could be argued that Asmodeus is the most powerful of the fiends since - theoretically - every single devil in the universe ultimately serves under him, while none of the Demon Lords can possibly substantiate a similar claim.
I think that the whole point of the Blood War is the prove that Chaos and Law are balanced. One is an unpredictable unit of barbarian forces while the other is a cunning military army able to fight in formations (when not stabbing each other in the back). The mightiest of the Tanar'ris is Demorgorgon, and would probably be a match against Asmodeus on even ground, something that Asmodeus would probably never agree to do. I'd say he won't take any action if he doesn't have 100% chance of winning, leaving things to chance being a 'chaotic' action. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 19 Dec 2010 : 23:03:05
You're comparing the Archdevils of the Nine Hells of Baator against the Demon Lords of the (666?) layers of the Infinite Abyss.
Most of the Archdevils have divine ranks and powers, at least within their domains; Asmodeus, Mephistopheles, and Baalzebul certainly possess deity powers in fact if not in name; Gargauth and Tiamat are now deities who were once numbered among the Nine.
A large number of Demon Lords also have divine ranks and powers; many are actual deities worshipped by various (monstrous) races throughout the cosmos (though many of these are relatively unknown or powerless in the Realms). The actual number of Abyssal layers has never been determined, nor have all their rulers ever been fully determined. There is always the possibility that some completely new (or ancient and forgotten) power of superior potency could emerge from the unfathomable depths of the chaotic evil Abyss.
If you're asking about a throwdown between Archdevils (like Asmodeus, Mephistopheles, and Baalzebul) vs Demon Lords (like Demogorgon, Orcus, Graz'zt, Lolth, Juiblex, Yeenoghu, and Pazuzu - just to name a handful) then I have no answer for you. The Blood War has not yet determined a victor. It could be argued that Asmodeus is the most powerful of the fiends since - theoretically - every single devil in the universe ultimately serves under him, while none of the Demon Lords can possibly substantiate a similar claim. |
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