| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Rhewtani |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 17:37:01
What do ships look like before the invent of smokepowder? Are these ballistae armed things? It seems like the hulls of a lot of the wrecks in most pictures look like your standard 17th century ships, but I'm wondering what they do for artillery when they don't have some wizards. |
| 9 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 03:54:33
Hmm, undead rowers would be entirely feasible if commanded by a powerful necromancer on board, and golems are easy enough to accommodate as well. Most monsters, however, lack the ability to perform the necessary motions of rowing, unless they are humanoid.
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| Ayrik |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 03:49:02
I still maintain that D&D warships could (where appropriate) be structurally modified to make better use of undead, golem, or monster rowing muscle. No need to waste tonnage accomodating the comforts and provisions of wimpy humans. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 03:26:03
For pure pre-gunpowder power, it is hard to top a Byzantine bi- or Trireme. As MT noted, some were built to extremes such that there were (in at least one case) up to 40 banks of rowers. (not necessarily oars, FYI) They could hold hundreds of soldiers and slave-rowers, and led to the great galleasses of the Venitians in early 1400's. These were oar-driven sailing ships at their height of ability, before ships began to go to pure sail-power only. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 01:36:07
A recent series of film documentaries about this topic has been, er, floating around, and describes all sorts of magnificently large and fearsome (though not all seaworthy, affordable, nor practical) floating war vessels, platforms, barges, fortresses, and seige engines used (or at least designed) in ancient Asia. The Korean Dragon/Turtle Ships were particularly noteworthy and used long before gunpowder was applied to weaponry. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 01:03:44
King Olaf's long ship (The great Serpent) was 155' long. Thats an example of a ship built more to impress, then actually fight though (like the Battleship Yamoto).
Just after Alexander, the Greek successor-states tried to out-do each other, and built the Levantine Behemoths - the largest of which had 16 banks of oars and was 180' long.
The Romans also built a few 'monster ships', but much smaller ships were the standard-issue (they were actually more sea-worthy).
Scorpions and mangonels were the standard issue in such 'ancient' vessels. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 00:22:02
Rhewtani, this definitely sounds like one for Ed. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 18:26:39
Adding to MT's post, ballistas were mostly used for ripping sails and grappling. Yes, chain-shot was only used with cannons, as was grape-shot. Most older ships did indeed rely on archers, though "gunners" were also added on later ships (mid-1600's and beyond).
Prior to Columbus (time-period wise), you'd be VERY hard pressed to find a ship much larger than 150 ft long, and with more than 200 crew, so keep in mind the numbers when dealing with when using ships. Basically, depending on the type of vessel, the larger ships- and by extension larger crews- came only after the advent of the three-and four mast designs, mostly on frigates, clippers(17-1800's) and galleaons and cravels, Pirates would have stuck to smaller and lighter ships that could out-run and out-maneuver the massive galleons and ships-of-the-line: sloops and small frigates, mainly. Cause what's the fun of a adventure without some pirates?! |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 18:15:28
The general shape and design of the hulls did not change much from 1400's to 1700's- the biggest changes were in size and in armaments. Ships of the line in 1700's (england, mostly) could carry up to 700 crew and 120 cannons, while earlier ships like the Nina carried no more than 40, generally speaking. Before cannons were used, naval warfare was primarily done ship-to-ship, by boarding. Ballistas would be used, but only at the bow and perhaps one or two on the stern as well, due to the size and relative slowness of loading. some early cannons might have been mounted as well, but not befor 1300's, generally speaking. (Before that, cannons really did not even exist.) I've done some extensive research on ships, and I recomend checking into your library to see what books they have. I recommend the Time-Life series on sailing and maritime history, a muti-volume set by period and type called "The Seafarers". "The Pirates", "The Explorers" and "The Ancient Mariners" are the volumes that would be the most useful to you, if they have them. Most libraries have this set, so you should be able to find it. Otherwise, there are plenty of other good books on historical ships, you just have to do a little searching. you might also find some on-line pics and even deck plans of older ships, if you google it, to see what they looked like. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 18:13:12
Ballista (including a small, ship-specific model), catapults, and Greek (Alchemist) Fire projectors (Old Empires only). Smaller ships would rely on archers.
Canon was used to fire chain-shot (which took-out sails), and I have seen the same principle applied to ballista/Arbalests (mounted crossbows), but that may only be a Hollywood/Fantasy trope - I'm not sure if they were used that way historically. Basically a long chain connected to two heavy weights (iron balls). Chain-shot is factual, but I am only aware of it being used with canon, historically.
Then you have grappling hooks and boarding-planks, not to mention good, old-fashioned ramming.  |
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