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 Elminster Must Die---Hit or Miss? [Spoilers]

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T O P I C    R E V I E W
Dennis Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 11:16:19
The Good Points:

Arclath and Amarune. They're two of the very few who were successfully portrayed like real people. Arclath's humor occasionally made me smile.

Alassra's torment. I was accustomed to seeing her blasting Red Wizards and countless insignificant foes. To see her totally helpless is a welcome change, albeit sad. That scene in the cave is really touching. Feeble and chained like a dog or a Thayan slave—not the Witch-Queen we're all used to see. Needless to say, she didn't deserve that.

Connection to various previous significant events. This is something I always look forward to when reading an Ed-penned Realms novel. I'm assured that history is never forgotten.

The last chapter. I expected it, though. We can't have an Elminster wandering the Realms as floating ashes. I understand Storm's sentimentality over the casting of the spell, as I too believe it's an evil thing to do without the host's consent. Robbing one of her freedom is in some ways worse than killing her.

The Epilogue. There are already a lot of hints in the first few chapters, so reading it actually happened is not much of a surprise. But a pleasant surprise, indeed it is. HER return, as I understand, is something most – if not all – Realms fans have always hoped and wished for. Now, if that voice is Cyric's or Shar's, remind me again not to read the next book.


The Why-on-earth-do-I-have-to-see-these? Points:

Un-motivating prologue. A book's prologue is supposed to motivate the reader to continue reading till the end. A teaser, in short. But this one's prologue is certainly the opposite of that. A band of cold-blooded sellswords going for a kill. Now that's really something new, eh?!

This book is supposed to herald a new chapter in El's looooong life. But where's the 'newness' in it when we still see his old foe wagging his rotting tail? El needs to use an insect repellent. The endless Elminster-Cockroach rivalry deserves not a hiatus, but an utter cessation. It's worse than the never-ending LOVE story of Lex and Superman. Manshoon should get a life. Oh, wait, maybe that's the problem: roaches don't have a life! At. All.

Too many nobles, too little purpose. I came to the point when I told myself they could all die for all I care! I now have two alternate titles for this book: The Cockroach Must Die! and Cormyr's Coxcombs Must Die!

Unnecessary verbiage. I understood and to some degree liked Ed's profusion of words in the previous Elminster books because it made perfect sense; it highlighted what needed focus and provided details to what might otherwise have been plainly boring scenes. However, in this book, I found the verbosity too much to bear. This isn't the kind of 'fat' I referred to in that thread/poll I started weeks ago. Effectively pruning this novel will undoubtedly make it just a hundred pages or less. I could live with that, (though I much prefer a better, more sensible 'fattening up').

Manshoon's ridiculous monologues. One is 'Emperor Manshoon.' Hah! Absolutely the worst Reamlsian joke ever told. Another is 'Elminster Aumar...you are going down' Feels like I'm watching a small-budget anime. Oh, there's more. But I don't want to flood this thread with all his farcical musings.

Mage Royal or Dolt Royal? Targrael's too easy way of freezing him (and his useless servitor) proved the latter.

Lack of clear climax. The story seems to follow a bland, flat plot. If the climax is El's encounter with and 'death' in the hands of the Manshoon-controlled beholder, then I don't know what else to call the other scenes.


MY Verdict:

Duh! Do I even have to say it? Apparently, the bad points far outweigh the good. So, it's definitely a MISS, for me.

Now, will I ever bother to read Bury Elminster Deep? My tentative answer is: I will have to wait and see. I can't afford to be a 'masochistic reader,' as I had almost become while reading this novel. However, there might be things I will find interesting in B.E.D.

You've heard my verdict loud and clear. What's yours?
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Dennis Posted - 08 Jan 2011 : 17:17:40
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

She has indeed, on at least one occasion. She left it in El himself during the ToT. I don't see any reason she could/would not do so again.



Maybe Rune will be Mystra 3.0
Dennis Posted - 08 Jan 2011 : 17:11:48
quote:
Originally posted by Therise

quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

Hmm, I like Therise's notion. True, not all dead magic zones are from the Shadow Weave, but here's the thing- all of them have resulted from some form of damage to the Weave itself. If the Shadow Weave was indeed designed to destroy it, it could well be that some of those zones came from it. Also, do remember that Shar is a goddess of destruction and entropy. It's certainly within her portfolio to try to use some sort of "disease" to destroy the Weave and thus, Mystra herself. Therise may be closer to the mark than we think.


I strongly suspect that when we first heard about the shadow weave wasn't when it was first created. If its original purpose was just to destroy the Weave (all magic)...


Ed once mentioned that the Shadow Weave is just a shadow/reflection of the Weave...I don't think it can/would destroy the Weave, otherswise it would also destroy itself.
Alisttair Posted - 07 Jan 2011 : 22:04:03
Regarding information being true or not, to add to that that some things are more accurate than others and that there are also a plethora of parralel worlds that are similar but differ in their own respective ways, to varying degrees, some in which Mystra was never killed, others where there was no ToT, even some where there was a completely different deity of magic...basically different people's campaigns
Erdrick Stormedge Posted - 07 Jan 2011 : 18:40:58
quote:
Originally posted by Therise

quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

Hmm, I like Therise's notion. True, not all dead magic zones are from the Shadow Weave, but here's the thing- all of them have resulted from some form of damage to the Weave itself. If the Shadow Weave was indeed designed to destroy it, it could well be that some of those zones came from it. Also, do remember that Shar is a goddess of destruction and entropy. It's certainly within her portfolio to try to use some sort of "disease" to destroy the Weave and thus, Mystra herself. Therise may be closer to the mark than we think.


I strongly suspect that when we first heard about the shadow weave wasn't when it was first created. If its original purpose was just to destroy the Weave (all magic), those first dead magic zones might've been due to the "shadow weave".

Some Realmsian sage may have thought that the "shadow weave" had allowed access to shadow magic and powered shadow spells (because he knew it was connected to Shar), but if we really think about it mages have been casting shadow spells forever. In 4E, it's known that the source for shadow magic is the shadowfel... and back in the day, the shadow source could've been the same thing. So yeah, I think we've been led astray by the idea that the "shadow weave" was anything other than some kind of long-term plan to eat away and destroy the Weave (i.e. ALL magic).




Therise Posted - 07 Jan 2011 : 18:34:35
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

Hmm, I like Therise's notion. True, not all dead magic zones are from the Shadow Weave, but here's the thing- all of them have resulted from some form of damage to the Weave itself. If the Shadow Weave was indeed designed to destroy it, it could well be that some of those zones came from it. Also, do remember that Shar is a goddess of destruction and entropy. It's certainly within her portfolio to try to use some sort of "disease" to destroy the Weave and thus, Mystra herself. Therise may be closer to the mark than we think.


I strongly suspect that when we first heard about the shadow weave wasn't when it was first created. If its original purpose was just to destroy the Weave (all magic), those first dead magic zones might've been due to the "shadow weave".

Some Realmsian sage may have thought that the "shadow weave" had allowed access to shadow magic and powered shadow spells (because he knew it was connected to Shar), but if we really think about it mages have been casting shadow spells forever. In 4E, it's known that the source for shadow magic is the shadowfel... and back in the day, the shadow source could've been the same thing. So yeah, I think we've been led astray by the idea that the "shadow weave" was anything other than some kind of long-term plan to eat away and destroy the Weave (i.e. ALL magic).


Alystra Illianniis Posted - 07 Jan 2011 : 18:21:32
Hmm, I like Therise's notion. True, not all dead magic zones are from the Shadow Weave, but here's the thing- all of them have resulted from some form of damage to the Weave itself. If the Shadow Weave was indeed designed to destroy it, it could well be that some of those zones came from it. Also, do remember that Shar is a goddess of destruction and entropy. It's certainly within her portfolio to try to use some sort of "disease" to destroy the Weave and thus, Mystra herself. Therise may be closer to the mark than we think.
Erdrick Stormedge Posted - 07 Jan 2011 : 18:00:34
Ho Ho Ho! thou dost remind be of the philosophical tobagonists
Of many a world!

Sweet water and light laughter my young friend@
quote:
Originally posted by Therise

quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge

Wanton speculation aside, Scribe Therise... I 'ave walked these 'Realms long enough to know that Zones of Dead Magic arose in The One Land long before The Shadow Weave. Dost thou knows the Earth Sage, and Chronicler of Elminster, Ed of the Greenwood? This worthy has corroborated this appraisal 'ere at Candlekeep.

Erdrick, I've been following the Realms since Greenwood's Pages from the Mages. Ed has always maintained that the "truths" we think we know about the Realms are just the best guess of current sages.

It's not out of the realm of possibility to suggest that everything we think we knew about the so-called "shadow weave" may in fact have been off the mark.

I'm being more than clear that I'm speculating, so there's no reason to suggest that I'm simply inexperienced or unfamiliar with the Realms.




Therise Posted - 07 Jan 2011 : 17:48:46
quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge

Wanton speculation aside, Scribe Therise... I 'ave walked these 'Realms long enough to know that Zones of Dead Magic arose in The One Land long before The Shadow Weave. Dost thou knows the Earth Sage, and Chronicler of Elminster, Ed of the Greenwood? This worthy has corroborated this appraisal 'ere at Candlekeep.

Erdrick, I've been following the Realms since Greenwood's Pages from the Mages. Ed has always maintained that the "truths" we think we know about the Realms are just the best guess of current sages.

It's not out of the realm of possibility to suggest that everything we think we knew about the so-called "shadow weave" may in fact have been off the mark.

I'm being more than clear that I'm speculating, so there's no reason to suggest that I'm simply inexperienced or unfamiliar with the Realms.
Erdrick Stormedge Posted - 07 Jan 2011 : 17:33:42
Wanton speculation aside, Scribe Therise... I 'ave walked these 'Realms long enough to know that Zones of Dead Magic arose in The One Land long before The Shadow Weave. Dost thou knows the Earth Sage, and Chronicler of Elminster, Ed of the Greenwood? This worthy has corroborated this appraisal 'ere at Candlekeep.


quote:
Originally posted by Therise

quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge

Nae, Therise. The Shadow weave twas indeed a second, fell mystic conduit. Dead magic zones were, or beist, the sign of a blighted weave.

quote:
Originally posted by Therise

The more I think about it, I'm starting to doubt that Mystra died. I think we will find out that everyone thought she was killed, but that she actually used Cyric in order to help her disperse energy through the Weave. I think the "shadow weave" never really was what people thought it was (i.e. it wasn't actually an alternate power source), but it was actually a kind of disease that would've destroyed the Weave. By dispersing fully into the Weave, Mystra destroyed the "shadow weave" poison but it caused a lot of corollary damage... it was either that, or let magic (and perhaps all of Toril) be destoyed.

And for the past 100 years, Mystra has been too busy making repairs to the actual, real Weave (which is just base magic, and how it was originally described) such that she hasn't had time to communicate with anyone.

It would mean that the Weave wasn't an overlay, or a method, or a "lie". The real lie was that the "shadow weave" (which WAS an overlay) wasn't a power source, but a disease on magic and the fabric of reality.




No, I think we will find out shortly that the shadow weave wasn't a power source. I'm speculating, of course, but I think I'll be right: what we've been told about the shadow weave has all been a lie. And those dead magic zones? That was the shadow weave doing what it was intended to do - to destroy the Weave.


Diffan Posted - 07 Jan 2011 : 17:19:41
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus


I'm going to go ahead and say that I'm in the (apparent) minority of realms fans that does not want to see Mystra return. Just thought I'd get that out there. Thank you, and excuse me while I go hide behind a blast shield.



Minority, yes but not alone. I too didn't want to see her return. When they supposedly "killed" her off during the Spellplague I pretty much knew she was coming back. WotC and FR authors have a hard time letting deities stay dead it seems. Moander has come back how many times now? Is Eilistraee really dead or is her "essence" still out there or among the other elven deities of Avandor? And even Bhaal still has his little minions running around (pre-Spellplague anyways).

The point being, deities in FR seems to take decades and editions to fully die. I think with 4E, we'll see very little if nothing more of Tyr and probably Bhaal and Myrkul but even with the culling of the pantheons or deities not getting full write-ups in the FRCG, they're still there more or less.

But in regards to Mystra making a come-back, they should have her be WAAY more strict and stern. I think the new Alignment system works in her favor, making her Unaligned. But I fully believe her main problem was in what was written about her. I'd actually like to see a few anti-heroes in her worship. Show us readers that she's not all Smiles and Sunshine and putting her Favored on a pedestal.
Therise Posted - 07 Jan 2011 : 17:05:31
quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge

Nae, Therise. The Shadow weave twas indeed a second, fell mystic conduit. Dead magic zones were, or beist, the sign of a blighted weave.

quote:
Originally posted by Therise

The more I think about it, I'm starting to doubt that Mystra died. I think we will find out that everyone thought she was killed, but that she actually used Cyric in order to help her disperse energy through the Weave. I think the "shadow weave" never really was what people thought it was (i.e. it wasn't actually an alternate power source), but it was actually a kind of disease that would've destroyed the Weave. By dispersing fully into the Weave, Mystra destroyed the "shadow weave" poison but it caused a lot of corollary damage... it was either that, or let magic (and perhaps all of Toril) be destoyed.

And for the past 100 years, Mystra has been too busy making repairs to the actual, real Weave (which is just base magic, and how it was originally described) such that she hasn't had time to communicate with anyone.

It would mean that the Weave wasn't an overlay, or a method, or a "lie". The real lie was that the "shadow weave" (which WAS an overlay) wasn't a power source, but a disease on magic and the fabric of reality.




No, I think we will find out shortly that the shadow weave wasn't a power source. I'm speculating, of course, but I think I'll be right: what we've been told about the shadow weave has all been a lie. And those dead magic zones? That was the shadow weave doing what it was intended to do - to destroy the Weave.
Erdrick Stormedge Posted - 07 Jan 2011 : 16:36:52
Shadow weave magic twas wrought by the Shadowmother to allow her followers easy use of spellcraft after her corruption of The One True Spell was complete... aye. The Goddess, all powerful, dealt a telling blow to her Dark Aunt with her (near) destruction. The Lady is wise, and is Reborn!

Hail, and know She Who is the One True Spell!


quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair

quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge

Nae, Therise. The Shadow weave twas indeed a second, fell mystic conduit. Dead magic zones were, or beist, the sign of a blighted weave.


And shadow weave dead magic zones were a cure

Alisttair Posted - 07 Jan 2011 : 16:13:19
quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge

Nae, Therise. The Shadow weave twas indeed a second, fell mystic conduit. Dead magic zones were, or beist, the sign of a blighted weave.


And shadow weave dead magic zones were a cure
Erdrick Stormedge Posted - 07 Jan 2011 : 16:01:51
Nae, Therise. The Shadow weave twas indeed a second, fell mystic conduit. Dead magic zones were, or beist, the sign of a blighted weave.

quote:
Originally posted by Therise

The more I think about it, I'm starting to doubt that Mystra died. I think we will find out that everyone thought she was killed, but that she actually used Cyric in order to help her disperse energy through the Weave. I think the "shadow weave" never really was what people thought it was (i.e. it wasn't actually an alternate power source), but it was actually a kind of disease that would've destroyed the Weave. By dispersing fully into the Weave, Mystra destroyed the "shadow weave" poison but it caused a lot of corollary damage... it was either that, or let magic (and perhaps all of Toril) be destoyed.

And for the past 100 years, Mystra has been too busy making repairs to the actual, real Weave (which is just base magic, and how it was originally described) such that she hasn't had time to communicate with anyone.

It would mean that the Weave wasn't an overlay, or a method, or a "lie". The real lie was that the "shadow weave" (which WAS an overlay) wasn't a power source, but a disease on magic and the fabric of reality.

Therise Posted - 07 Jan 2011 : 15:34:19
The more I think about it, I'm starting to doubt that Mystra died. I think we will find out that everyone thought she was killed, but that she actually used Cyric in order to help her disperse energy through the Weave. I think the "shadow weave" never really was what people thought it was (i.e. it wasn't actually an alternate power source), but it was actually a kind of disease that would've destroyed the Weave. By dispersing fully into the Weave, Mystra destroyed the "shadow weave" poison but it caused a lot of corollary damage... it was either that, or let magic (and perhaps all of Toril) be destoyed.

And for the past 100 years, Mystra has been too busy making repairs to the actual, real Weave (which is just base magic, and how it was originally described) such that she hasn't had time to communicate with anyone.

It would mean that the Weave wasn't an overlay, or a method, or a "lie". The real lie was that the "shadow weave" (which WAS an overlay) wasn't a power source, but a disease on magic and the fabric of reality.
Alisttair Posted - 07 Jan 2011 : 15:08:47
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

I haven't gotten the chance to read The Sage of Shadowdale Needs to Perish! yet, but it is on the list.

I'm going to go ahead and say that I'm in the (apparent) minority of realms fans that does not want to see Mystra return. Just thought I'd get that out there. Thank you, and excuse me while I go hide behind a blast shield.



yay I have a friend
Chosen of Asmodeus Posted - 07 Jan 2011 : 13:09:59
I haven't gotten the chance to read The Sage of Shadowdale Needs to Perish! yet, but it is on the list.

I'm going to go ahead and say that I'm in the (apparent) minority of realms fans that does not want to see Mystra return. Just thought I'd get that out there. Thank you, and excuse me while I go hide behind a blast shield.
Alisttair Posted - 07 Jan 2011 : 11:55:05
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

Maybe you mean in The Shadow of the Avatar trilogy, particularly in Shadows of Doom, where El 'carried' Mystra's essence and consequently prevented him from casting spells, save those from word-triggered wands.



I remember that, but for some reason I thought I saw something more, like in the Heroe's Lorebook or something.
Alystra Illianniis Posted - 07 Jan 2011 : 03:27:03
She has indeed, on at least one occasion. She left it in El himself during the ToT. I don't see any reason she could/would not do so again.
Dennis Posted - 07 Jan 2011 : 01:15:44
quote:
Originally posted by Brynweir

I just don't have the "gotta have it" feel any more. Though if they kill off Elminster permanently, I might buy that one.



That's not gonna happen. In the next 30 years, maybe.
Brynweir Posted - 07 Jan 2011 : 01:01:00
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

quote:
Originally posted by Brynweir

I understand, but with thousands of other books and other authors to read, I'll be okay for a while. I never even finished all the pre-4th novels. I'm good for a while.

Perhaps Paul Kemp could write something that might make me change my mind



that's the positive I took from it all, Reading and discovering new novels.....although I will continue reading Ed and Elaine. But I now find other books at the top of my wish list , where before any and every new fr novel would automatically jump to the next to be purchased ......that is no longer the case.

But I am anxiously awaiting Bury Elminster Deep



Yes. I read a lot of non-FR novels. I go through about 200 books a year (and list some faves in my sig.), though this year I have spent a good deal more time RPing and writing than reading. I just don't have the "gotta have it" feel any more. Though if they kill off Elminster permanently, I might buy that one.
Dennis Posted - 06 Jan 2011 : 19:37:06
Maybe you mean in The Shadow of the Avatar trilogy, particularly in Shadows of Doom, where El 'carried' Mystra's essence and consequently prevented him from casting spells, save those from word-triggered wands.
Alisttair Posted - 06 Jan 2011 : 19:26:42
Yeah but I thought it was written that she had chosen for that purpose (back in some 2e sourcebook(s) anyways).
Dennis Posted - 06 Jan 2011 : 19:17:32
That's a possibility that was raised before. Though I prefer that she left it not in her Chosen but in some unknowing lass or lad.
Alisttair Posted - 06 Jan 2011 : 19:12:57
A thought. Didn't Mystra leave her divine essence in her chosen in case she died???
Dennis Posted - 06 Jan 2011 : 19:10:48
The silverfire, whatever's left of it, might have prevented any malign, divine intrusion into the Chosen's minds.
Alisttair Posted - 06 Jan 2011 : 14:17:13
quote:
Originally posted by DennisNow, if that voice is Cyric's or Shar's, remind me again not to read the next book.


To add to my last post, Mystra.
Because opposite of what you said, I personally hope it is the voice of Cyric, the PRINCE OF LIES!!

plus it would go against my theory that Karsus will return as the god of magic
Alisttair Posted - 06 Jan 2011 : 14:12:02
I voted somewhere in between. For the most part I enjoyed the novel, but found that a lot of characters didn't TRULY die in the past 100 years (Mirt, Vangerdahast and Alusair in particular), which sort of bugged me.
Erdrick Stormedge Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 23:04:24
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

BTW, does anyone own a physical copy of that module?

Indeed, I do. 'Tis one of the most treasured parts of my old D&D/FR collection.



Long Live Duke Conan (and his mistress, Sonja) !
Dennis Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 01:44:15
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

quote:
Originally posted by Brynweir

I understand, but with thousands of other books and other authors to read, I'll be okay for a while. I never even finished all the pre-4th novels. I'm good for a while.

Perhaps Paul Kemp could write something that might make me change my mind



that's the positive I took from it all, Reading and discovering new novels.....although I will continue reading Ed and Elaine. But I now find other books at the top of my wish list , where before any and every new fr novel would automatically jump to the next to be purchased ......that is no longer the case.

But I am anxiously awaiting Bury Elminster Deep



I used to have the read-all-the-books-by-your-favorite-writer view. However, I had long ago discovered that there simply are novels by my favorite authors which I couldn't stand. Either the authors changed "outlook" which reflected in their works, or I did, consequently finding those by the authors disappointing. Sometimes I just see it a chance for me to discover and read books by other writers. Thankfully for me, it's not a problem, as fantasy is a genre that's teeming both with fresh and tested (old) talents.

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