| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dennis |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 08:05:43
After reading Erik's comment (in WotC Novel Survey thread) about 'fat' versus tight writing, I thought it's time to have some really 'fat' FR novels, maybe not the Stephen King fat (though it'll be superb if such were the case), but more in line with the books by Steven Erikson, Patrick Rothfuss, David Forbes, and Karen Miller. By 'fat,' I mean detailed yet still action-fraught, with a length of 500 or more pages, approximately 250,000 words. I often feel I want more whenever I read a Realms novel. It's a not a bad thing, but I could have been more content and 'happy' had the novels been longer, more detailed ---delving more in the characters' personalities and the splendor of the setting. Even after reading a trilogy, I still feel that much could have been revealed...
So what do you think? Are you happy with the current length? Would you rather have the all novels to be 'fat'? Or would you want 'only' the RSEs to be given such treatment?
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 15:59:07
It's cost-effective, though. I noticed most books with that kind of paper are usually the 800-plus pages long. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 15:42:23
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
In that case, I would say the author should take it his responsibility to also note the changes made by his editor to avoid possible "continuity errors." I do not dislike the role of editors. The editors are there, first and foremost, to help the author and ensure his books "shine." [I love my editors, even though at times they are a little bit bitchy.]
Back to the topic:
Even if WotC releases novels in paperback edition only, with [annoying] newspaper-thin quality, as long as they are "fat," I'd still buy them.
I also dislike the thin paper "fat" paperbacks which are just a thick as the 300 page books |
| Dennis |
Posted - 16 Oct 2011 : 08:58:06
In that case, I would say the author should take it his responsibility to also note the changes made by his editor to avoid possible "continuity errors." I do not dislike the role of editors. The editors are there, first and foremost, to help the author and ensure his books "shine." [I love my editors, even though at times they are a little bit bitchy.]
Back to the topic:
Even if WotC releases novels in paperback edition only, with [annoying] newspaper-thin quality, as long as they are "fat," I'd still buy them. |
| Azuth |
Posted - 15 Oct 2011 : 20:25:27
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I reckon there are more than a handful of FR authors who can pull it off, veterans and relatively new alike.
That's the truth, and a bit more to add.... Not every story is worty of a full-length novel, and not every author wants to write such stories.
Good prose is always "tight" in that extraneous words are eliminated by the author or editor. That doesn't mean that a sentence can't be long, and there can be "loose" words in short sentences. I believe that any author who can write a novel of three-hundred pages in length can write one of five-hundred pages as well. This doesn't mean that a particular story should be expanded by two-hundred pages to make a long book, just that - to my earlier point - the editors should worry less about word count or page count and more about tellig a good story. I know a lot of the NDA-blocked questions asked of Ed are things (per THO) that he submitted previously for publication but were cut out.
Good authors are self-editing, too. The items I have had published are re-read at least a dozen times by me, and then by others for typographic and grammatical errors. Proof-reading is different than editing, however. Professional editors often do not possess sufficient knowledge in a given subject and despite an author's strong protests against a chapter (or three) being eliminated, the editor's voice is de facto the one that is heard. It is to this that I attribute many "plot holes" or "continuity errors" we find in writing. Imagine (or remember, depending upon who is reading this) writing fifteen chapters, and in chapters ten and eleven, a huge subplot occurs. In that subplot, one of the characters finds a magical gem. The editors determine that the subplot is unnecessary, and although the book is "finished" by the author, editing ensues. The author is asked to write changes, and forgets to "rewrite" the scene where the character finds the gem. Then, in chapter fifteen, the character whips out the gem and uses it briefly. Suddenly, readers galore are asking, "where did that come from?" Many attribute this to sloppy writing when in fact it is because authors do not have eidetic memories, they can't recall every detail of what an editor has cut. (caveat emptor: I don't have a dislike of people who are editors: I have a dislike of the role of editors in creative writing. If an author can't self-edit, then the publisher should refuse the manuscript.)
Cheers.
Azuth |
| Marc |
Posted - 15 Oct 2011 : 16:32:13
I'm livin fat yo |
| Dennis |
Posted - 15 Oct 2011 : 14:43:55
I reckon there are more than a handful of FR authors who can pull it off, veterans and relatively new alike. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 15 Oct 2011 : 14:38:38
Perhaps WoTC enforces a page limit on it's novels because many of the authors are new(er) to the field. Keeping a reader's attention for 500+ pages seems like a truely daunting task for even accomplished writers. Just seems like it would me MUCH easier for a fledgling writer to crank out a 315 page book versus a 700 page epic. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 15 Oct 2011 : 03:20:19
Yes, that's a better way, indeed. |
| Azuth |
Posted - 15 Oct 2011 : 02:59:52
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It's more than author preference, as I did like his earlier books, particular the first 4 Elminster novels. So many things make EMD rather unpalatable for me, but I wouldn't go into details as I already said enough in another thread.
Same is the case with other FR authors whose novels [most of them, that is] I very much enjoyed. I had fun reading RLB's HL trilogy and TCF, but labored through WOV, and in the end didn't finish it. I loved PSK's TW trilogy, but couldn't care that much for his EC. So, more than the author's style, for me, it's the story itself that matters the most.
I don't disagree, Dennis. I just find that certain authors tell stories much better in verbose terms than others. While informational, I don't find Ed's columns for publication all that interesting to read. Perhaps a better way of phrasing it would be: it is best when an author's and a reader's style intersect?
Cheers.
Azuth |
| Dennis |
Posted - 15 Oct 2011 : 02:50:15
It's more than author preference, as I did like his earlier books, particularly the first 4 Elminster novels. So many things make EMD rather unpalatable for me, but I wouldn't go into details as I already said enough in another thread.
Same is the case with other FR authors whose novels [most of them, that is] I very much enjoyed. I had fun reading RLB's HL trilogy and TCF, but labored through WOV, and in the end didn't finish it. I loved PSK's TW trilogy, but couldn't care that much for his EC. So, more than the author's style, for me, it's the story itself that matters the most. |
| Azuth |
Posted - 15 Oct 2011 : 02:34:45
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Indeed. Wait till I'm done reading it. Just 3 more chapters. I'll start a thread about how wonderful it is. I already finished 3 other books during the countless breaks I took from reading it.
This is a good demonstration of author preference; I couldn't put Elminster Must Die! or Bury Elminster Deep down until I literally fell asleep. Then I'd have to reread the last fifteen pages I had read while almost asleep. The jump from 3E to 4E was so great, that I begrude every word that the editors cut from Ed's books. Ed's a yarn spinner to be certain, and his stories are not "tight" in Erik's style. Erik is a fantastic writer, and is to be praised for his books, but Ed is like the storyteller around the campfire... you don't want the story to end before the sun finishes setting. As a previous poster wrote: some authors can pull it off, others cannot, and others still would rather not.
Azuth |
| Azuth |
Posted - 15 Oct 2011 : 02:22:47
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
@dennis: Yes, I see what you're saying. What I'm saying is that you borrowed my term and applied it in a different way, with a new definition.
My original use of the word defined "fat" as like "obfuscating redundancy/wordiness" (which takes the form of over-elucidation or worthless meandering), and I was saying that I like how modern realms novels prune this out. I don't need a novel to beat into my head what's going on--just stating it once or twice is fine.
By contrast, your definition of "fat" is "more descriptions, more sensible, needful details," and that's perfectly fine by me.
I just want to make it clear that you aren't using the term the way I did, and thus you're not making it seem like *I* was saying old-school realms novels are more descriptive than modern ones. I don't think that's the case--I believe modern realms novels tend to be tighter and more efficient, because that's the evolution of the style of fantasy writing in general.
I am certainly not a proponent of *less* description, though I certainly think it's possible to have *too much* description (when it confuses the reader or distracts from the story). I can't off the top of my head think of a Realms novel that has *too much* description.
Cheers
I tend to agree with Erik, although I am certain Dennis didn't purposely misinterpret Erik's statement. When I think of "wordy" I am drawn instantly to Lord of the Rings.I agonize in reading a page of Tolkein's writing.
I do not agree to extending a book simply to reach a word limit, and I equally dislike publishing houses to limit page count/word count to some arbitrary number. If a story is good and has a solid plot, and if the editors can't find anything superfluous, then print the bloody thing! One of the refreshing things about the Harry Potter franchise was the amazing thickness of the latter books. In a Realms-case-in-point, I've always felt that Prince of Lies could easily have had another hundred pages and not been bloated. While somewhat unrealistic for a first-run print, the Cleric Quintet was much more pleasing to read as a giant compendium rather than separate books for some reason. I also tend to think writing style of the author is important.
Regarding Erik's "Storm/El" snipppet - Ed writes in lengthy prose, but I find it eloquent and it doesn't feel "wordy" to me. I want all of the adjectives, and the long descriptions because Ed does them well. In contrast, I felt that Jim Lowder (who I loved for Prince of Lies) didn't do as well in Ring of Winter. (disclaimer: I've had several chats with Jim and so my criticism of this is known to him and was partially due to his own self-described commentary to me about how his writing style evolved when writing the latter novel.)
The only comment on this thread with which I take great concern is that long books will not be read. Not all authors can write lengthy novels, and while War and Peace is a great piece of literature, I don't ever wish to reread it. With high school graduates failing basic composition courses in freshman-year university, getting people to read more, not less, should be the aim of every author. Besides, can we really have too many good Realms stories? Erik, please keep writing them! 
Azuth |
| BARDOBARBAROS |
Posted - 12 Oct 2011 : 09:20:42
Fat – For all novels, be RSE or not. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 11 Oct 2011 : 23:58:41
PHAT!!!!! |
| Dennis |
Posted - 11 Oct 2011 : 23:02:41
I think it was some reviewer from NY Times who told him of such "flaw." Then eventually he owned it. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 11 Oct 2011 : 22:04:54
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
That reminds me of Stephen King. He actually admitted that if he has one flaw, it's that he sometimes has "diarrhea" when it comes to writing his novels.
Oh, the comments that beg to be made in response to this! 
Don't be shy Wooly  |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 11 Oct 2011 : 22:04:00
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
That reminds me of Stephen King. He actually admitted that if he has one flaw, it's that he sometimes has "diarrhea" when it comes to writing his novels.
Isn't Dreamcatcher based on a terrible case of diarrhea?  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Oct 2011 : 21:47:54
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
That reminds me of Stephen King. He actually admitted that if he has one flaw, it's that he sometimes has "diarrhea" when it comes to writing his novels.
Oh, the comments that beg to be made in response to this! |
| Dennis |
Posted - 11 Oct 2011 : 21:07:43
That reminds me of Stephen King. He actually admitted that if he has one flaw, it's that he sometimes has "diarrhea" when it comes to writing his novels. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 11 Oct 2011 : 20:50:50
I could go for some nice "fat" realms books, but only if they were done properly. Verbal diarrhea can be hard to stomach ;) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 27 Nov 2010 : 10:29:09
Indeed. Wait till I'm done reading it. Just 3 more chapters. I'll start a thread about how wonderful it is. I already finished 3 other books during the countless breaks I took from reading it. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 27 Nov 2010 : 10:05:03
That doesn't sound like a very good book report. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 27 Nov 2010 : 09:58:13
If the fat novels would be like Elminster Must Die, then I'd rather see super-lean books. Boredom is a reader's worst kind of suffering! |
| Dennis |
Posted - 06 Nov 2010 : 06:48:41
quote:
Originally posted by Hooch9
Still, even if I'm not that fast of a reader, I'd like more "fat" in the books I read. It will take more time for me, but the end result is always sweeter. I guess I "lean" toward the "fat".
That made no sense.
It did make sense, actually. It doesn't matter how many books one manages to finish; what matters is how much he enjoys reading them. And I'd definitely enjoy reading Realms novels more if they're given much, much more 'fat.'
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| Hooch9 |
Posted - 06 Nov 2010 : 06:30:12
I guess I'd have to say "fat" as it seems to be called. But there are limits.
Sometimes, yes. Some FR novels do feel that they need more "Fat". Others are done well and if they are "short", they still have a lot of depth and detail.
Still, there should be limits. We don't need three chapters describing a few actions. By that standard, they should not simplified either. I guess this is the "lean" and "Fat".
Still, even if I'm not that fast of a reader, I'd like more "fat" in the books I read. It will take more time for me, but the end result is always sweeter. I guess I "lean" toward the "fat".
That made no sense. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 21:05:32
Salvatore, eh? That much alone explains why I didn't hear of it. I don't read his books. |
| Sandro |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 20:47:30
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot
@dennis, The anthologies while nice, aren't full novels and most of them aren't for subgenre highlighting (although it may occur anyway). Realms of the Dead certainly wasn't rooted in horror.
@everyone else, I did mention that I haven't read everything, yes?
In any case WotC decides to publish a subgenre for FR, it will be YA, as DL has the same. Still the stuff of adventure, but the target audience are the young.
They've already done that, as a matter of interest, with R.A. and Geno Salvatore's Stone of Tymora series. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 29 Oct 2010 : 03:39:04
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot
@dennis, The anthologies while nice, aren't full novels and most of them aren't for subgenre highlighting (although it may occur anyway). Realms of the Dead certainly wasn't rooted in horror.
@everyone else, I did mention that I haven't read everything, yes?
In any case WotC decides to publish a subgenre for FR, it will be YA, as DL has the same. Still the stuff of adventure, but the target audience are the young.
I am not against the publishing of sub-genres that you specified, Lady Fellshot. I just think that WotC still has a lot of 'fixing-the-Realms' endeavor to take care of, and should focus on it more than undertaking another venture. |
| Halidan |
Posted - 29 Oct 2010 : 03:23:21
opps. My mistake. Please accept my appology. The original post has also been changed. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 28 Oct 2010 : 09:25:11
quote:
Originally posted by Halidan
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Mystery would be very awesome and could really appeal to the lore nuts if handled well (an archeologist type main character for example). A detective story could be fun too.
The Realms has had several mysteries. You have Muder in Cormyr, Murder in Halruaa, and the Realms of Mystery anthology. Each has its own strengths and weaknesses, but overall I personally liked each of them.
Halidan, those quoted lines are Lady F's, not mine. |
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