| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| capnvan |
Posted - 09 Sep 2010 : 15:53:51
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| 26 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 18:18:30
Yes, and its one of many things about the RotAW series that is stupid beyond belief. But we'll hand wave it by saying its a shadow mythallar, and that's that. 3e was obsessed with the shadow weave, so it might as well be to blame for that insanity as well. |
| Snowblood |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 15:33:27
well the Shades managed a work-around on that score Hoondatha my old chum...... |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 13:37:17
Actually, Mystra re-wrote the rules of magic after the Fall to specifically outlaw mythallar. And the ones that already existed shattered when their enclaves hit the ground.
I've always considered the Netherese as playing "fast and loose" with the rules of magic, which Mystryl allowed. After Karsus took that to its logical conclusion, Mystra decided to tighten the reins a bit. Which was why Netherese post-Fall had to memorize spells and mythallars didn't work and things like that. |
| Zireael |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 11:54:42
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
The wizard mythal is 10th level, and still requires all of the subsidiary casters as a high magic mythal. Oh, and it also kills the central caster. I rather doubt that's what was used for "house mythals."
<snip>
And my guess is that Khelben Arunsun used it in Blackstaff to raise Rhymanthiin.
quote:
I haven't found anything in Cormanthyr yet, the closest is this, p.148:
"A number of old magical fields act as mythals but are not called such; humans of old with access to ancient Raurinese or Netherese magics may have secretly established near- mythals."
I'd bet it was the thing that started the discussion.
quote:
That's interesting Dracons, mythallars being related to mythals, Ioulaum probably used bits of Eaerlanni arcana when constructing it.
The name certainly suggests it. Hey, it's mythallar and the Netherese have had contact with elves (and learned from them) before they created the Nether Scrolls.
I'd guess this was the idea from the beginning - the elves have coool EHM and Netheril has mythallars and 12th level magic and Karsus... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 11:12:26
quote:
Originally posted by Dracons
Right...so mountain go boom, Mythallar remained, and made whatever spells that were the protections on the city reform on ground, thus a weaker mythal.
Just an idea of how one could come about. Nothing stating that the Mythallar were all completly destroyed and couldn't make any magic items that were guarding a place or protecting a place, (such as warmth? Perhaps more air?) on the ground instead of high up in sky.
Yeah, but other than Move Mountain, mythallars aren't described as powering any spells -- just quasi-magical items.
Other than unfortunately similar names, there isn't a connection between mythallars and mythals. |
| Quale |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 09:22:55
That's interesting Dracons, mythallars being related to mythals, Ioulaum probably used bits of Eaerlanni arcana when constructing it.
----
There is a house mythal in Dungeon (#120ish) |
| Dracons |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 05:17:24
Right...so mountain go boom, Mythallar remained, and made whatever spells that were the protections on the city reform on ground, thus a weaker mythal.
Just an idea of how one could come about. Nothing stating that the Mythallar were all completly destroyed and couldn't make any magic items that were guarding a place or protecting a place, (such as warmth? Perhaps more air?) on the ground instead of high up in sky. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 05:11:02
quote:
Originally posted by Dracons
That is true Wooly, but Mythallar makes magic perament, (Thus the floating cities). Perhaps the havoc of Mystrels death made some spells that were in effect in some areas to become a mythal type deal.
Nope, it did not make magic permanent. A mythallar, in fact, negated the need for permanent magical items -- so long as you stayed close to home. The floating cities were borne aloft by Proctiv's Move Mountain, but then that spell remained in effect because of one of it's material components -- the mythallar. |
| Dracons |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 04:50:25
That is true Wooly, but Mythallar makes magic perament, (Thus the floating cities). Perhaps the havoc of Mystrels death made some spells that were in effect in some areas to become a mythal type deal. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 04:11:02
quote:
Originally posted by Dracons
Could be that explorers just found old ruins of a netherese floating city, (that was completely destroyed) and the residel magic was the mythal. Those are pretty hard to dispel.
Netherese cities had mythallar, not mythals. Mythallar are essentially magical batteries, nothing more. |
| Dracons |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 02:56:08
Could be that explorers just found old ruins of a netherese floating city, (that was completely destroyed) and the residel magic was the mythal. Those are pretty hard to dispel.
Or it could just be a flux.
Or just several layers of protective magic, or various spells that have been permency and expanded. Many reasons. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 01:26:03
Ah! That may be the very one! It certainly sounds familiar. After looking in my copy (finally dragged it out!) I'm inclined to think this may be what I remembered. It's pretty vague, but DOES lead one to the possibility of other mythal-type magics. There was another reference to other wizards who independently created their own versions, some of which might have allowed for the caster to survive, though it does not actually state this. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 13 Sep 2010 : 17:02:16
quote:
Originally posted by Ralderick Hallowshaw
quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
I will continue looking in Cormanthyr and sources.
In LEoF, in "the Old North" section (p.143), there's a paragraph about Green Glade, an elven site connected to the ancient Ardeep, which says:
"Perpetual spring has reigned within this circle of trees for centuries, and the entire glade is under a permanent hallow effect. These features have been attributed to a wide range of deities over the years, but they are in fact the effects of a minor mythal".
Could this be the reference Alystra mentioned?
Raldrick, that's not the one I was thinking of, as I've never read that particular source, but the reference I remember was along those lines. I think it was something about minor mythals in the section of cormanthor on mythals in general- or, now that I think on it, it might have been in the chapter on High Magic, perhpas under the heading on "high magic-like effects" created by lower-level spells? (human magic adapted or analagous to elven High Magic rituals) Urgh, I REALLY need to dig that book back out!!
|
| Snowblood |
Posted - 13 Sep 2010 : 14:15:41
from here via another site........ |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 12 Sep 2010 : 15:15:41
If it isn't, it's a very interesting cite nonethelesss.
However, I think one possibility here is that there's been some sloppiness in word usage. Not necessarily among the FR designers (though that's also possible), but among the humans who now live near these sites. Most humans don't have any clue about the specifics of elven magic, but they do know the "highlights" as it were. They've heard of mythals, and they have a very vague idea of what they are, so I wouldn't be surprised if they called pretty much any sort of "long lasting, free standing elven magic field" a mythal. We'd probably have to track down some elves to get the specifics of what it actually is. |
| Ralderick Hallowshaw |
Posted - 12 Sep 2010 : 10:30:26
quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
I will continue looking in Cormanthyr and sources.
In LEoF, in "the Old North" section (p.143), there's a paragraph about Green Glade, an elven site connected to the ancient Ardeep, which says:
"Perpetual spring has reigned within this circle of trees for centuries, and the entire glade is under a permanent hallow effect. These features have been attributed to a wide range of deities over the years, but they are in fact the effects of a minor mythal".
Could this be the reference Alystra mentioned? |
| Jakk |
Posted - 12 Sep 2010 : 07:24:41
quote:
Originally posted by Snowblood
"One might argue that Undermountain in its entirety also acts as a mythal-like area, given its many special controls and magics. Frankly, I'd rather obfuscate what exactly Halaster can do within Undermountain and its gates in the future--I think I gave up too many secrets in "Stardock," and want to restore the image of mystery and the threat of Halaster once again. <snip>
Steven Schend
FR Senior Designer & Mythal Architect"
 Well, that seems to be in progress now, thanks to the newly minted and massive NDA surrounding the Mad Mage (who, if he really is as dead as Expedition to Undermountain made it look, shouldn't need any NDAs to hide behind).
Hopefully this NDA yields some publication material soon...  |
| Snowblood |
Posted - 11 Sep 2010 : 12:35:06
"One might argue that Undermountain in its entirety also acts as a mythal-like area, given its many special controls and magics. Frankly, I'd rather obfuscate what exactly Halaster can do within Undermountain and its gates in the future--I think I gave up too many secrets in "Stardock," and want to restore the image of mystery and the threat of Halaster once again. Sorry for the digression, but it's worth noting that the powers inherent in UMT and how they are maintained are similar (but not identical) to those of mythals.
Yup. I'd suspect that many ruined elven outposts from the time of Netheril (some of which still dot the Savage Frontier today) contained some level of mythal magic. Just for color, I'd suggest a watchtower that, with spoken words in Elvish, can magnify the view from 2 to 20 times to allow guards to focus on minute details and views ala Star Trek ship captains. The ability to keep fresh food or keeping wood from warping are other powers recommended for such places. And that's just the utilitarian stuff. :)
All in all, good work on Ben Baer's part in cobbling together the mythal info.
Steven Schend
FR Senior Designer & Mythal Architect" |
| Snowblood |
Posted - 11 Sep 2010 : 12:24:08
remembering that spell webs and mantles are the precursors to mythals, a house mythal like that around small temples, important buildings, clan halls etc is just a permanent field that defends, enhances & makes life more livable for its inhabitants.....think spell-web + mantle on a larger scale....working out the mechanics shouldn't be too hard...there are examples...eg the meeting tree for the different elf races on the outskirts of the old elven court....in the web enhancement...think of Myth Unnohyr as well a mythal raised to guard a noble estate. |
| Quale |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 22:36:51
What, spellmantles or Shoonite spell-fields??
I do this mythal within mythal all the time, old level requirements are way too high. It's understandable tough if the field covers the entire city and would last thousands of years. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 22:14:25
I believe it was in the Cormanthyr book. (the only source I have on mythals) As I said, it was just a line or two in the mythal description. However, there MAY have been a spell-description in the 2nd ed Complete Wizard's Compendium (vol 4). I seem to remember an entry in one of the appendices about mythals and the Weave Mythal spell being in it, I'll have to dig those out and check, but I'm sure it was in there somewhere.... |
| Halidan |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 13:19:39
quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
Alystra, if you get a chance to find that source, it would be much appreciated.
Or, at least tell us which book the information is in, and maybe one of us will do the research for you. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 09 Sep 2010 : 21:10:36
I seem to remember there being a mention or two of a second, less powerful version that did not require the death of the central caster, but it was never specifically statted out or anything beyond a brief passing reference. It was supposedly created by human casters as an alternative or something to that effect- don't have the book ATM to check on it.... |
| Elfinblade |
Posted - 09 Sep 2010 : 20:58:34
This sounds very interesting. Keep us updated on what you find out about the house mythals. A semi-powerful house warding i something i've been looking for. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 09 Sep 2010 : 20:44:55
The wizard mythal is 10th level, and still requires all of the subsidiary casters as a high magic mythal. Oh, and it also kills the central caster. I rather doubt that's what was used for "house mythals."
I've never heard the term before, and I think this is something we should ask Ed about. My guess for a house mythal would be something of a cross between a moderately-powerful warding (sort of like a wardmist) and a smart house (like some of the stuff THO was mentioning Halruaan houses can do a few months back). But we'll need to ask Ed. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 09 Sep 2010 : 17:01:14
Well, there was a wizardly version of mythals mentioned in the Cormanthyr book. It's the one that was used in Myth Drannor, I believe, and it is only ninth level. So I see no reason why a House mythal could not use that version. Obviously, it would have only minimal powers attached. |
