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T O P I C    R E V I E W
Riverwind Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 06:14:28
I really enjoyed the thread on Waterdeep's Army, so now I want to take on the City's Navy:

So, according to the books, there's 2,000 memebrs of the Navy, and here we'll find a force that needs expansion. (Piergeiron is going to get this place destroyed!!!)

The Navy has 16 Rakers, 24 Strikers, and 15 transports (War Naos?) and is tasked with manning the harbour walls and forts.

The Rakers Fleet: 16 ships with 36 crew on each, so that's 576 sailors/marines.

The Strikers Fleet: 24 ships with 44 crew on each, so that's 1056 sailors/marines.

The War Nao Fleet (transports:) 15 ships with 40 crew on each, so that's 600 sailors/marines, not to mention the troop carrying levels of 200 each would bring the level up to 3000.

So just to man the ships, Waterdeep needs 2232 sailors/marines. So, I'm guessing when ships are in dock, those troops man the harbour forts and walls (no rest.)

So right now, the Navy is understaffed. No wonder Waterdeep was attacked from the sea!!! Waterdeep needs a stronger Navy.

BTW, I love the map of Waterdeep, it's a work of art. But where are the dry docks?
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
bladeinAmn Posted - 08 May 2010 : 08:58:18
Riverwind, someone already said that those villages you mentioned are already working on protecting themselves, and thus protecting Waterdeep as well by way of 'happy coincidence.'


Getting a few things clear:

-The Lords of Waterdeep and Magisters operate more as referees, rather than a typical oligarchy. Thus someone coming up w/domineering proposals propagated by fear tactics (which is what expanding Waterdeep's defenses amount to, given there is no threat of such severity that hasn't already been carefully considered) would hold little weight in a city-state like Waterdeep. In America and other countries of this world, that could get you elected into various offices and even keep you there. But along the Sword Coast, if it may get someone elected, it most likely wouldn't be able keep'em there. By hook or by crook at that. This due to how someone can grow preternaturally powerful by battle prowress or magicks or faith in Toril, rather than the fat-happy tactics of obtaining personal 'power' by monetary wealth, as is the main way to 'power' on Earth. Easy translation: Skills that bleed w/substance are of much more value in Toril, whereas brownosing, pandering, and fear tactics are the main orders of the day on Earth, regarding acquisition of 'power.'

-Waterdhavian merchants have settled into Waterdeep due to "merchants feel unoppressed, lightly taxed, and lightly watched" as was said on the last post on page 4 of this thread. W/this in mind, we should also consider that Waterdeep is in the North, where there is winter, and that city-states like Baldur's Gate and even the isle of Mintarn may be percieved by merchants as having better weather. Now w/all that in mind, the Lords and Magisters of Waterdeep have every incentive to not raise taxes and keep the system as it is, in order to keep the seasonal merchants---which we'd do well to remember that they've thier homes in other far-off lands---to continue coming, so that the Waterdhavian economy doesn't falter or outright collapse. As then even the prominent permanent residents would then look to live in areas where they can make the same type of coin kill as before (ie-Amn; better yet, Baldur's Gate or Mintarn, if the former Waterdhavian seasonal merchants move thier businesses there, in light of Waterdeep raising taxes to build an army that defeats the purpose and foundation that the city's prosperity was built upon).

-It would appear as though a person proposing a stronger military for Waterdeep wouldn't consider that the merchants and nobles of the city are already on the ball of making provision for safe(r) roads and waterways for their exporting, importing, and shipments. I reckon they do by hiring rangers, scouts, runners and even magic users and priests (of Waukeen) to scout the lands and mountains for brigands, orcs, and other dangers, before beginning the process of moving goods.

I'm sure some rich and powerful merchants even have eyes and ears amongst the goings on of pirates and merchants of Skullport, much like how Lord Nasher has Aarin Gend (from the C-RPG Neverwinter Nights), either by catching a crook in thier domain and having mercy on him by employing him as such, or by thier own underworld dealings to go w/their more respectable enterprises.

W/all this in mind, not only are the various Waterdhavian powers doing what they can to make the tradeways safe for Waterdeep, but the merchants, nobility, and guilds are undoubtedly doing so as well, even via the money they save by not being as taxed as businessmen in Amn are. Now that might not be canon---I haven't read Waterdeep sourcebooks to their fullest, nor have I ever ran a campaign there---but it can easily be inferred, as merchants got to have some sort of intelligence or enterprise to be able to make thier fortunes in the North Sword Coast, when so many other locations in Faerun would seem like better options to work one's way to a prosperous living.

And whether all I juss wrote is canon or not, its certainly a more economical approach to making the tradeways safer, than taxing residents for to make a stronger army by the gov't, which'd then make the gov't more powerful, and take away the influence the nobles, guilds, and merchants already wield in the city---and thus fall under the same trappings that the city's history already went through w/Raurlor.

I've written all of that to state two things:

1) I can't think of any way why the leaders and citizens of Waterdeep and the surrounding villages would want a stronger army. And I can't think of a way how someone could propose it without eventually being shunned out of both the social community of the city, and the friendly business communications of the city.

2) Given we're in a thread about Waterdeep's Navy (I didn't plan on touching thier army in this thread, but what I've stated earlier here should suffice as to why I believe its not a good idea to expand it), there's one bit of canon lore which I don't believe is found in any canon sourcebooks, and is thus forgivably overlooked by those who consider strengthening Waterdeep's navy. And that's about everyone's favourite bronze dragon, Lhammaruntosz "The Claws of the Coast," who was canonized in Dragon #245 during 2e, and re-canonized on Wizards.com in '03 for 3e.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20030326a

In essence, Waterdhavian merchants take steps, or in the Scaly Eye's case, find boons, which then become known to almost everyone paying attention in the industries thereof, to make provision for safer travels against the dangers on the tradeways, waterways, and in regards to potential war. And nobody of any competence and sanity is stupid enough to war w/Waterdeep.

Wooly Rupert Posted - 08 May 2010 : 04:37:50
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


If the horde was already there, any troops Waterdeep sent would simply be cut down en route.


And why would that be? Can't they fight on their way to Luruar?



Because we're talking about an orc horde. The key word here is horde.

Unless Waterdeep was to field an army in the tens of thousands, they would be swarmed by orcs before getting close enough to do anything. A Waterdhavian army would be badly outnumbered and in the open, against a force that wouldn't care about losses.

Of course, it's possible that the orcs would siege a place, rather than sack it and keep going... But that would still leave our Waterdhavians outnumbered, quickly surrounded, and outside of any protective fortifications.

quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_

How was it than possible that they where able to send troops to Evereska, whicht they don't even have an alliance, to fight the phearim?



As I recall, it was fighting a distant threat before it became a close threat.

They used a lot of magic to move troops, and even then, it still didn't go great for the Waterdhavians. It must also be pointed out that that trilogy's adherence to prior canon is oftentimes questionable.
A Gavel Posted - 07 May 2010 : 17:22:03
I agree with the preceding three posts about the tone and tenor of debate in this thread.
Riverwind, Broken Helm earlier posted: "I think it was very well put in the army thread: we haven't yet identified just who in Waterdeep would strengthen the army or navy (or how they would pay for it), nor how Waterdeep would deal with the wider political ramifications (amongst both allies and rivals). THO has reiterated several times how Waterdeep's prosperity/trade popularity is directly related to the balancing act they are depicted in the published rules as doing, and you just ignore that point. There's not much point in assembling huge armies if you bankrupt the city you're fighting for, or cause them to become a shunned backwater."
You quoted that post, and replied: "Well I'm not sure I'm talking about a huge army, just a larger one."
Understood. So let's remove Broken Helm's last sentence from the quoted passage, and your reply that dealt with it.
Can you address the two remaining sentences? Several scribes have now requested you do so. Thank you.
Broken Helm Posted - 07 May 2010 : 17:13:07
Here is the nub of the problem, to me.
Riverwind, from your opening post in this thread: "So, I'm guessing when ships are in dock, those troops man the harbour forts and walls (no rest.)
So right now, the Navy is understaffed."
I GUESS this, therefore THIS conclusion is fact, and off we go...
We've got Ed Greenwood's ear here at the Keep, via THO. You can just ask him. He wrote a lot of the passages you've been quoting or referencing.
When something seems wrong or inadequate to you, why not just jaunt over to his Questions thread and ask him?
Then hold your fire on whatever specific thing you've asked him about until you have his reply (which by definition is canon), incorporate that reply into your unfolding thinking, and we can proceed.
You could just think of it as our own intelligence arm.
Broken Helm Posted - 07 May 2010 : 17:04:11
Riverwind, you asked if I have an alternative strategy.
I'm still waiting for you to lay out your strategy. You've told us I'd build this fort and I'd recruit many, many more troops, but never told us who the "I" is when it's someone in Waterdeep and not Riverwind.
To say nothing of the "how" you'd do these things, and deal with the pushback from everyone around in the Sword coast region who sees Waterdeep doing these things.
So I don't see a strategy from you, yet, to offer an alternative to.

However, let me accept for a moment that you have laid out a coherent strategy. You have thus far overlooked/ignored/not addressed an alternative strategy that was set forth (by Blueblade, I think, though I'd have to wade back to make sure) of an undercover wizard-dominated Waterdeep security force.
That strategy, coupled with a separate "spies on the ground" intelligence-gathering arm throughout the region that can't be directly linked to the wizards by a rival power "killing their way" up the spy network, would seem MUCH more effective and flexible than the forts and boots approach you seem to be advocating.
(Much of border America and Canada are covered with the ruins or the sites of forts that have been long abandoned, so it seems that what worked - - or was thought to have worked - - at one time, militarily, no longer does.) I think the point made by THO and others that having battle magic widely available sharply lessens the utility of forts and boots stands very strongly. So does the point, again made by many, that Waterdeep has turned its back on that approach, and doesn't work that way "today." You seem to be judging them fools for that open-doors-trade, balancing act, low-military approach, and be trying to steer/shove/quickly get them onto the road to become a military titan...and I just don't see the will to accept the change as being present in Waterdeep's populace, still less so in the majority of the people within its walls, who are visiting outlander traders coming to Waterdeep to trade (as THO keeps pointing out to you, they'll just go somewhere else that they see as friendlier to trade, if you do the military/greater security act).
So...the alternative strategy I favor is already on the table. And was when you challenged me to provide it.
So it's my turn to issue a challenge: it's time to deal with the counter-points I and THO and other scribes are making, and stop the sniping and nit-picking.
(Riverwind, your recent post that conflates a strong government security stance with security along the trade-roads is a perfect example of the latter. You reference many canon passages to prove that the roads are patrolled, which is something that was never in dispute; a classic "straw man" argument. I don't feel you've fairly and properly answered anything I've posted at all; to me, it feels more like you continually deflect me with answers that don't apply to my points. And the PM you sent me was utterly insulting. Just FYI: I learned to read and do research decades ago. You, too?)
The Hooded One Posted - 07 May 2010 : 16:41:46
You see, Riverwind, I think the base problem here is that you seem only to be able to look at things from a military perspective. (I have a hammer, so everything is a nail...)
The Lords' Alliance is essentially a POLITICAL organization (closer to the United Nations than to any army), which has military cooperation largely as a deterrent threat to foes, and an incentive/reward to smaller settlements to join.
Thus far, in this thread and in the army thread, you keep advancing proposals to increase personnel strength and build forts here and there and over there, with the "because" being "because (I think it will) strengthen Waterdeep's security by achieving X"
You haven't dealt with the political problems/pitfalls of trying to increase strength and build forts, you brush aside canon-based objections or reasoning from other scribes, and in my case you try to find small faults with my points that you can reply to, but never deal with the essential points at all. Witness your most recently reply to me about Zundbridge, which seems to me to deliberately misinterpret my argument, and ignores my point: that increasing control over the trade road would lead traders to stop using it, and seek another base for trade than Waterdeep.
Trying to correct me about NCIS and ONI with public website information is laughable, from my point of view, and entirely beside the point: you were insisting Waterdeep's navy HAD to have an intelligence arm, and I was pointing out that intelligence was already gathered by other means, and that Waterdeep's navy did not.
Trying to make Waterdeep - - or any other Realms military force or combined forces - - fit a modern real-world American model (which is the model you keep following) just doesn't work, partly because of the medieval-to-Renaissance level of the Realms, partly because of the vastly different geopolitical conditions, and largely because in our real world magic doesn't work, whereas it does in the Realms.
What I (and it seems to me, many of the other posters here) keep trying to make you see is that politics and military matters CAN'T be separated, and that we can't yet see just WHO in Waterdeep would want to make the military moves you advocate AND could manage it. To me, many of your arguments are no more valid than insisting that, say, the Eastern Shaar should be a naval power, even though it has no seas anywhere near its borders. You are starting from a "here's what Waterdeep SHOULD be doing" viewpoint, not a "here's what this person or group in Waterdeep wants to achieve, here's why, and here's how they might go about doing it," which would make for an interesting discussion.
Can you see how how I've reached this viewpoint, myself? Can you grant that I might have a point, about how you're debating in this thread?
love,
THO
Jorkens Posted - 07 May 2010 : 16:30:44
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind


I do have a little bit of problem with this. Waterdeep is the most powerful city in the north and should show some leadership and not just use their allies as a buffer. Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but maybe the Silver Marches was formed because they were sick of Waterdeep's lack of leadership through the Lord's Alliance, "if you're no going to get tough, we will."



Show some leadership to cities that don't want its leadership?

Letting your allies maintain their own armed forces and maintain their own borders is not being weak or failing to show leadership. Those cities are defending themselves -- they're not trying to defend Waterdeep; that's just a happy coincidence for Waterdeep.



Well Wooly, I think the cities of the Silver Marches wanted more leadership and defense otherwise they would have never formed the Confederation. I think clearly the agreements under the Lords' Alliance was not enough.



But they didn't exactly come crawling to Waterdeep begging to be protected either did they? I am not sure they would be that grateful if Waterdeep just decided to step in and take over. Especially if it was done for "their own good". These are old and independent areas and cities who aren't all that likely to welcome a foreign saviour in exchange for a part of their independence. Even Tilverton wasn't ecstatic about the Cormyrean takeover in the 1350's. And they were in a far worse position than the areas of Luruar.

Then again, I never liked the idea of Luruar in the first place, but that's just me.


Edited a bit to remove some sarcasm for the post.
Jorkens Posted - 07 May 2010 : 16:26:41
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind

quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens

quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind


Well we would need to ask the cities of the north which is better, bandits and orcs roaming the countryside or a professional army that can defend our common interest? I think everyone understands that the common interest is trade, and delays in trade caused by bandits and orcs are bad for business (time is money.) As far as some of the closer communities such as Goldenfields, they need to understand that if they were lost, Waterdeep would be screwed, and Waterdeep can't allow that to happen. I would offer them some type of joint operation of the new fort if they were that concerned about our presence.
As far as the nobles and the guilds: The new forts and forces will need supplies, weapons, horses, stone, wood, etc. All of these cost money, and Waterdeep needs to buy it off someone. I'm sure they would like that. Also the nobles and the guilds have an interest in a safe countryside. The nobles have estates and farms, and I'm sure they don't like wondering monsters and bandits.



And if the allies decline? The tone makes me think of imperialism and colonialism at once. The tone here is actually a bit scary with a underlying threat and I think there would be problem at once here.

And one thing I think you overlook every time here; Waterdeep doesn't have an "I" The nobles, guilds and merchants are not that easily calmed down as the army would be a threat to their position of power within the city. Their not idiots, if the Lords are willing to threaten the individual settlements they might next threaten the city's own factions. A few goldpieces more is not worth giving up their position within the structure of Waterdeep.

This sounds like a plan a centralized and strong state would try, more or less figuring that they can lead every one to follow their goals. Waterdeep is not in a position that would make this possible. Your plans might change the city in to something that might be able to "organize and Civilized" the North, but this would first demand another form of strong government. Which would probably have to be created with brutality and then Waterdeep would not me anything else than Zenthil Keep.

All this as I see it of course




The South: Waterdeep already controls Zundbridge and the crossing there over the Dessarin. I'm suggesting that the fortification be strengthened and the garrison be increased. As I said before, no invader would get to the north bank of the Dessarin, and because Waterdeep already controls Zundbridge, this should not bother anyone.





It seems like my questions about politics are constantly ignored, but anyway...

This will bother Amn, Thethyr Cormyr the city states etc. Any strengthening of the borders (when there is no threat) will most likely be seen as a first step in a plan to expand the borders. Which seems to be part of your logic any way. I think you underestimate how much of a problem this could lead to fro Waterdeep and how strong a country like Amn (who doesn't like Waterdeep much in the first place)really is if it decides to realy put its resources, both with trading and mercenaries, against Waterdeep.

I cant see the Harpers clapping their hands in approval either.
Riverwind Posted - 07 May 2010 : 15:09:56
We keep hearing that security is somehow bad for trade (well maybe illegal trade.)

From FR5 page 9:
"...military alliance of the rulers of cities in the North and along the Sword Coast works to keep the overland trade routes...as safe as possible..."

"Smaller towns and villages in the North wisely join the Allaince." (or else!)

"Large cities and towns not only patrol their own local lands,but also maintain garrisons in smaller towns and villages..."

page 15:
"The area around cities and towns is farmland, where common ecounters include cows, sheep...and military patrols (usually Waterdhavian or Neverwinter troops of the Lords' Alliance.)"

I suggested building a fort in Sword Mountains, well: page44
"Iniarv's Tower...a ruined fortress...attempts by the Lords' Alliance to rebuild it always end in failure." (hey guys, how about just build a new fort.)

Page 47:
"The High Road...it is HEAVILY PATROLLED by forces of the Lords' Alliance."


_Jarlaxle_ Posted - 07 May 2010 : 15:00:15
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


If the horde was already there, any troops Waterdeep sent would simply be cut down en route.


And why would that be? Can't they fight on their way to Luruar?
How was it than possible that they where able to send troops to Evereska, whicht they don't even have an alliance, to fight the phearim?
Ashe Ravenheart Posted - 07 May 2010 : 13:31:49
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly RupertBesides, why are we having this discussion in a thread about the Navy?


Because Army's locked?

Wooly Rupert Posted - 07 May 2010 : 12:51:52
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind

OK, I found it from The North which you can download (I'll put the link at the end)

(page 68)
The Lords' Alliance
Leader: Lord Piergeiron of Waterdeep
Base of Operations: Waterdeep
Goal: UNIFIED DEFENSE OF NORTHERN CITIES and promotion of their economic interest

"...this lawful and essentially good economic and MILITARY alliance..."
http://www.wizards.com/forgottenrealms/pdfs/North_69-101_politics-magic-index.pdf





A military allaince is not the same thing as a mutual defense treaty. A military alliance means they can help each other out -- it doesn't mean that Waterdhavian troops are obligated to walk the walls of Silverymoon.

If an orc horde attacked Luruar, Waterdeep more than likely wouldn't even be able to get an army to them in time to do anything -- if they tried, they'd likely wind up with their troops in the middle of nowhere when the horde pushed on and found them.



OK, but it says "UNIFIED DEFENSE."



Doesn't matter. There's only so much that can be done by a military force that's hundreds of miles away -- and that is needed at home.

Besides, why are we having this discussion in a thread about the Navy?
Wooly Rupert Posted - 07 May 2010 : 12:50:20
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


If an orc horde attacked Luruar, Waterdeep more than likely wouldn't even be able to get an army to them in time to do anything -- if they tried, they'd likely wind up with their troops in the middle of nowhere when the horde pushed on and found them.


So you say they wouldn't send troops at all? A fine alliance that would be ;)





If the horde was already there, any troops Waterdeep sent would simply be cut down en route. Who would that serve?

It's a different story if they knew a horde was coming, and had time to prepare -- but still, Luruar's own troops are the ones they can most readily gather, and will be gathering in larger numbers.
_Jarlaxle_ Posted - 07 May 2010 : 12:33:06
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


If an orc horde attacked Luruar, Waterdeep more than likely wouldn't even be able to get an army to them in time to do anything -- if they tried, they'd likely wind up with their troops in the middle of nowhere when the horde pushed on and found them.


So you say they wouldn't send troops at all? A fine alliance that would be ;)

_Jarlaxle_ Posted - 07 May 2010 : 12:32:14
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


If an orc horde attacked Luruar, Waterdeep more than likely wouldn't even be able to get an army to them in time to do anything -- if they tried, they'd likely wind up with their troops in the middle of nowhere when the horde pushed on and found them.


So you say they wouldn't send troops at all? A fine alliance that would be ;)

Riverwind Posted - 07 May 2010 : 11:55:37
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind

OK, I found it from The North which you can download (I'll put the link at the end)

(page 68)
The Lords' Alliance
Leader: Lord Piergeiron of Waterdeep
Base of Operations: Waterdeep
Goal: UNIFIED DEFENSE OF NORTHERN CITIES and promotion of their economic interest

"...this lawful and essentially good economic and MILITARY alliance..."
http://www.wizards.com/forgottenrealms/pdfs/North_69-101_politics-magic-index.pdf





A military allaince is not the same thing as a mutual defense treaty. A military alliance means they can help each other out -- it doesn't mean that Waterdhavian troops are obligated to walk the walls of Silverymoon.

If an orc horde attacked Luruar, Waterdeep more than likely wouldn't even be able to get an army to them in time to do anything -- if they tried, they'd likely wind up with their troops in the middle of nowhere when the horde pushed on and found them.



OK, but it says "UNIFIED DEFENSE."
Wooly Rupert Posted - 07 May 2010 : 11:47:40
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind

OK, I found it from The North which you can download (I'll put the link at the end)

(page 68)
The Lords' Alliance
Leader: Lord Piergeiron of Waterdeep
Base of Operations: Waterdeep
Goal: UNIFIED DEFENSE OF NORTHERN CITIES and promotion of their economic interest

"...this lawful and essentially good economic and MILITARY alliance..."
http://www.wizards.com/forgottenrealms/pdfs/North_69-101_politics-magic-index.pdf





A military allaince is not the same thing as a mutual defense treaty. A military alliance means they can help each other out -- it doesn't mean that Waterdhavian troops are obligated to walk the walls of Silverymoon.

If an orc horde attacked Luruar, Waterdeep more than likely wouldn't even be able to get an army to them in time to do anything -- if they tried, they'd likely wind up with their troops in the middle of nowhere when the horde pushed on and found them.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 07 May 2010 : 11:43:16
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind

I just wanted to add, we know how important the lower Dessarin River Valley is to Waterdeep as the bread basket of the city. This is from Volo's Guide to the North: (page 11)

"...orc hordes that sweep down the Dessarin every decade or so."

I'm sorry, but I would put a stop to this. The farms in the area are just too important.



So, are we just going to ignore the point the lovely Lady Hooded One made earlier, about orc hordes ignoring forts and such?

It's a horde. Unless you build the Great Wall of Waterdeep or recruit a dozen dragons, you're not going to stop it. Waterdeep would need an army the size of Waterdeep to protect against orc hordes -- unless they follow their current strategy, of having one highly defensible location that can't be circumvented.



Wooly,

I'm sorry if I ignored THO's point. I think we could look at Cormyr for some good examples of fortifications that protect/control an area of land, Castle Crag and High Horn. We know about High Horn here: (page 26 Cormyr)

"High Horn guards the road to the west, specifically to prevent border raiders and marshland-based lizardmen from entering the pass..."



Cormyr is a kingdom. Comparing it to a city-state is like comparing apples and oranges... Especially considering that Cormyr's very existence doesn't depend on trade.



A city like Arabel depends almost entirely on trade as does Waymoot, and Marsember.



Yeah, so? Arabel is a city, it's not the whole kingdom.
Riverwind Posted - 07 May 2010 : 11:18:29
OK, I found it from The North which you can download (I'll put the link at the end)

(page 68)
The Lords' Alliance
Leader: Lord Piergeiron of Waterdeep
Base of Operations: Waterdeep
Goal: UNIFIED DEFENSE OF NORTHERN CITIES and promotion of their economic interest

"...this lawful and essentially good economic and MILITARY alliance..."
http://www.wizards.com/forgottenrealms/pdfs/North_69-101_politics-magic-index.pdf

Kentinal Posted - 07 May 2010 : 09:02:14
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind

Also from Volo's Guide to the North: (page 144)

"Port Llast...bolstered by 30 of the Lords' Alliance troops...the troops are from are mainly from Elturel and Baldur's Gate, so that a Luskan attack would risk war with two powerful cities."

Now granted that does not say, "risk war with the alliance," but it does show that the alliance has "units," and shows some sort of mutual defense.

page 153:
"...Mirabar in the Lords' Alliance, viewing it as a vital lifeline against overwhelming orc hordes and Luskanite aggression."

page 178:
"Sundabar...the Lords' Alliance...sponsor the Sundabarian army of 2,000..."



Maybe we need to get Army scroll open again.

To your first , 30 people do not an army make (They can hardly booster an army, though with magic a person of high level is worth many of 1st level). That is more of banners that attacking a Noble of Elturel or Baldur's Gate. Say 10 from each of those and maybe 5 from two lessor cities could provoke a war between city states not because of numbers killed, but because of who was killed. The banners/flags/tokens indicating that some were from such cities was all that was required. The attack would be on the symbol of the city, not the very few people sent that carried them.
Riverwind Posted - 07 May 2010 : 06:59:02
Also from Volo's Guide to the North: (page 144)

"Port Llast...bolstered by 30 of the Lords' Alliance troops...the troops are from are mainly from Elturel and Baldur's Gate, so that a Luskan attack would risk war with two powerful cities."

Now granted that does not say, "risk war with the alliance," but it does show that the alliance has "units," and shows some sort of mutual defense.

page 153:
"...Mirabar in the Lords' Alliance, viewing it as a vital lifeline against overwhelming orc hordes and Luskanite aggression."

page 178:
"Sundabar...the Lords' Alliance...sponsor the Sundabarian army of 2,000..."
Riverwind Posted - 07 May 2010 : 06:32:52
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind

"And the Lords' Alliance wasn't a mutual defense treaty"

Wooly, are you sure about that? I don't have all the books with me right now, but I'll look it up. If I'm wrong here, I apologize.

Wooly has the right of it.

As the lovely Lady Hooded One described, several years ago:-
quote:
The Lords' Alliance is just that: an alliance of lords who generally share the same goals. They have spies and go-betweens/envoys who work for them (swearing personal allegiance to a particular lord), as information gatherers and sharers between the lords. Think of it as behind-the-scenes diplomacy, where they report a political event or outbreak of raiding or fighting to each other, and often decide on a united position to take regarding the event.
So, Marquant: no headquarters, no formal meetings, no badges and uniforms, and so on. The "structure" you're looking for just isn't there. This isn't the EU or the UN; it's more the Bildenberger Group or a "Red Phone" or "Hotline" network among various heads of state.
The public knows about the Alliance because of the peace its members work to maintain and the trade alliances and easy flows they foster (generally in the Sword Coast North and father south down the Sword Coast and east along the Heartlands trade routes).So, yes, they are the ultimate "behind the scenes" power group.
I hope this helps to explain the Alliance a bit better. How do I know all of this? Because we Knights (of Myth Drannor; my PC and other PCs) briefly found ourselves used as "go-betweens" to guard-and-carry items and documents from Lord to Lord, in Ed Greenwood's "home" Realms campaign (or as I like to think of it, THE [real, original] Forgotten Realms).
love,
THO




Hey Sage, Thanks.

I was looking it up in one of the books I have with me. I'm pretty sure in one of the books (FR3 maybe?) it says that the Alliance is a mutual defense treaty. I did just read this in COS Box set (page 29)

"The Lords' Alliance provides continued safety for all the settlements of the northern Sword Coast and those inland, with Waterdeep as the heart of the alliance."

(page 102)
"The Lords' Alliance and her member cities' navies provide some protection against piracy..."

I'll look up the other stuff when I get home, but this might be a case where all the designers are not on the same page. Thanks again.
The Sage Posted - 07 May 2010 : 06:22:41
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind

"And the Lords' Alliance wasn't a mutual defense treaty"

Wooly, are you sure about that? I don't have all the books with me right now, but I'll look it up. If I'm wrong here, I apologize.

Wooly has the right of it.

As the lovely Lady Hooded One described, several years ago:-
quote:
The Lords' Alliance is just that: an alliance of lords who generally share the same goals. They have spies and go-betweens/envoys who work for them (swearing personal allegiance to a particular lord), as information gatherers and sharers between the lords. Think of it as behind-the-scenes diplomacy, where they report a political event or outbreak of raiding or fighting to each other, and often decide on a united position to take regarding the event.
So, Marquant: no headquarters, no formal meetings, no badges and uniforms, and so on. The "structure" you're looking for just isn't there. This isn't the EU or the UN; it's more the Bildenberger Group or a "Red Phone" or "Hotline" network among various heads of state.
The public knows about the Alliance because of the peace its members work to maintain and the trade alliances and easy flows they foster (generally in the Sword Coast North and father south down the Sword Coast and east along the Heartlands trade routes).So, yes, they are the ultimate "behind the scenes" power group.
I hope this helps to explain the Alliance a bit better. How do I know all of this? Because we Knights (of Myth Drannor; my PC and other PCs) briefly found ourselves used as "go-betweens" to guard-and-carry items and documents from Lord to Lord, in Ed Greenwood's "home" Realms campaign (or as I like to think of it, THE [real, original] Forgotten Realms).
love,
THO
Riverwind Posted - 07 May 2010 : 06:13:54
"And the Lords' Alliance wasn't a mutual defense treaty"

Wooly, are you sure about that? I don't have all the books with me right now, but I'll look it up. If I'm wrong here, I apologize.
Riverwind Posted - 07 May 2010 : 06:09:52
Broken Helm,

I also wanted to add concerning you concerns. I'm talking about building two new forts and adding to one. None of these forts would more than (I don't have the maps in front of me right now) 75 miles from Waterdeep. So it would be alot different than say Baldur's Gate putting troops at Goldenfields.
Riverwind Posted - 07 May 2010 : 05:55:27
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
So, yes, fortifying Zundbridge (just to pick this one small example) WILL bother lots of folks. The vital folks, as far as Waterdeep's future prosperity is concerned.
love,
THO



Well Waterdeep already has a fort there: (COS Environs of Waterdeep page 12)

"...a double walled castle situated on a rocky outcropping above the river gorge..."
Riverwind Posted - 07 May 2010 : 05:45:03
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind

I just wanted to add, we know how important the lower Dessarin River Valley is to Waterdeep as the bread basket of the city. This is from Volo's Guide to the North: (page 11)

"...orc hordes that sweep down the Dessarin every decade or so."

I'm sorry, but I would put a stop to this. The farms in the area are just too important.



So, are we just going to ignore the point the lovely Lady Hooded One made earlier, about orc hordes ignoring forts and such?

It's a horde. Unless you build the Great Wall of Waterdeep or recruit a dozen dragons, you're not going to stop it. Waterdeep would need an army the size of Waterdeep to protect against orc hordes -- unless they follow their current strategy, of having one highly defensible location that can't be circumvented.



Wooly,

I'm sorry if I ignored THO's point. I think we could look at Cormyr for some good examples of fortifications that protect/control an area of land, Castle Crag and High Horn. We know about High Horn here: (page 26 Cormyr)

"High Horn guards the road to the west, specifically to prevent border raiders and marshland-based lizardmen from entering the pass..."



Cormyr is a kingdom. Comparing it to a city-state is like comparing apples and oranges... Especially considering that Cormyr's very existence doesn't depend on trade.



A city like Arabel depends almost entirely on trade as does Waymoot, and Marsember.
Riverwind Posted - 07 May 2010 : 05:33:22
quote:
Originally posted by Broken Helm
[However, I fear that instead of admitting that, or discussing alternative strategies, you'll begin to think other scribes are ganging up on you again.



I would love to talk about alternative strategies, do you have one?

quote:

I think it was very well put in the army thread: we haven't yet identified just who in Waterdeep would strengthen the army or navy (or how they would pay for it), nor how Waterdeep would deal with the wider political ramifications (amongst both allies and rivals). THO has reiterated several times how Waterdeep's prosperity/trade popularity is directly related to the balancing act they are depicted in the published rules as doing, and you just ignore that point. There's not much point in assembling huge armies if you bankrupt the city you're fighting for, or cause them to become a shunned backwater.



Well I'm not sure I'm talking about a huge army, just a larger one.

quote:

Or is there? If there's some part of how this strategy would work that you haven't shared with us yet, please share it. (Because I for one am a long way from convinced, thus far. So far, most of it sounds like "If I had a billion dollars and could do just as I pleased, it would nice to do and have X, Y, and Z" . . . as opposed to: "How can we make X, Y, and Z come about?" or "I think I can get Waterdeep from here to X, Y, and Z, and here's how I'd do it.") I'd love to hear a lot more about HOW (step by step) you'd accomplish this, Riverwind, from the initial paying for more soldiery or ships to finessing approval/support from Waterdeep's citizens to how you (as Waterdeep) would handle the political fallout amongst Waterdeep's allies and rivals.



I'm trying, I'm trying.

quote:

I'd certainly like to hear more of that . . . and less of you trying to correct THO about NCIS (which I have a strong suspicion she knows a lot about).



Well spend 5 minutes going to their website and go to ONI's website.

quote:

As far as Goldenfields goes, that's a vast temple farm of Chauntea, created, lived in, and farmed by priests of Chauntea, including Tolgar of Ed's original Crazed Venturers. They are independent of Waterdeep and everyone else by choice (in which faith plays a part, so they might well not be easily convinced to change their choice). It's a breadbasket, all right...so I put it to you, Riverwind: how would YOU (you as Waterdeep, that is) react if, say, Baldur's Gate or Secomber suddenly built up a huge army, fortified around Goldenfields, and announced they were "protecting" it, "because it's so important"? An army that could be used to block Waterdeep's access to all that food?
What if you as Waterdeep then marched on Goldenfields to "liberate" it, and Tolgar announced he was happy with his new defenders, and please go home? What would you do? Because it seems to me that this is how other places (such as Silverymoon, Secomber, etc.) would see things, if Waterdeep built up a huge army and started building forts in the Dessarin valley.



Well, that would not be good, right? That might mean war. In fact, Baldur's Gate does have troops in the north. (I'll look it up for you.)

quote:

(THO pointed out to you that both elves and dwarves would have something to say about this, earlier, but you didn't respond to those points. Somehow, if this was occurring in the Realms, I don't think the elves and dwarves concerned would LET you ignore them. )
Do you see what I'm getting at, here?
I don't think military moves (or "want lists") can be done in isolation from politics. I think you're stuck with (usually swift and nasty) consequences if you try.
Agree? Disagree?



Well it seems everyone is concerned about what others might think, but not what Waterdeep thinks. IMO, and this is only my opinion, Waterdeep needs to think of herself once in a while. Now, I'm not saying that they ignore their allies, but their security concerns should not be taken lightly.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 07 May 2010 : 05:21:41
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind


I do have a little bit of problem with this. Waterdeep is the most powerful city in the north and should show some leadership and not just use their allies as a buffer. Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but maybe the Silver Marches was formed because they were sick of Waterdeep's lack of leadership through the Lord's Alliance, "if you're no going to get tough, we will."



Show some leadership to cities that don't want its leadership?

Letting your allies maintain their own armed forces and maintain their own borders is not being weak or failing to show leadership. Those cities are defending themselves -- they're not trying to defend Waterdeep; that's just a happy coincidence for Waterdeep.



Well Wooly, I think the cities of the Silver Marches wanted more leadership and defense otherwise they would have never formed the Confederation. I think clearly the agreements under the Lords' Alliance was not enough.



Wanting more leadership doesn't necessarily mean wanting it from a distant southern neighbor. And the Lords' Alliance wasn't a mutual defense treaty -- it's more about trade than anything else.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 07 May 2010 : 05:19:30
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind

I just wanted to add, we know how important the lower Dessarin River Valley is to Waterdeep as the bread basket of the city. This is from Volo's Guide to the North: (page 11)

"...orc hordes that sweep down the Dessarin every decade or so."

I'm sorry, but I would put a stop to this. The farms in the area are just too important.



So, are we just going to ignore the point the lovely Lady Hooded One made earlier, about orc hordes ignoring forts and such?

It's a horde. Unless you build the Great Wall of Waterdeep or recruit a dozen dragons, you're not going to stop it. Waterdeep would need an army the size of Waterdeep to protect against orc hordes -- unless they follow their current strategy, of having one highly defensible location that can't be circumvented.



Wooly,

I'm sorry if I ignored THO's point. I think we could look at Cormyr for some good examples of fortifications that protect/control an area of land, Castle Crag and High Horn. We know about High Horn here: (page 26 Cormyr)

"High Horn guards the road to the west, specifically to prevent border raiders and marshland-based lizardmen from entering the pass..."



Cormyr is a kingdom. Comparing it to a city-state is like comparing apples and oranges... Especially considering that Cormyr's very existence doesn't depend on trade.

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