| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Zek |
Posted - 02 Apr 2010 : 19:52:02
Now I know that in 4e drow are all evil no more is there the mixed grouping(or so I heard).
Now by Canon of 3.5 dnd how are drow supposed to be played. As this has been a question that I think has sparked probably more debate than anything else. After all so many apparently want to play a Drizzt style character, or a "goody" two shoe drow.
I'm only asking this because I know drow have a level of paranoia as they're always anticipating betrayal and someone trying to kill them. And then there are the followers of Eilistraee whom are trying in a sense "redeem" themselves.
So my question is what is the Official canon way in how to play drow. Just so I can understand the concept and end at least some arguments. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Zanan |
Posted - 09 Apr 2010 : 16:36:52
It is indeed very interesting to read some passages of TGHotR and sections in Lady Penitent, when it becomes clear why the dark elves turned to the dark powers and vile magics in the first place. Essentially, the Vyshaan were winning the day and driving some of the others (not just dark elves) in submission or extinction. Only for golds facing the same by the dark elves and calling on help by greater powers and ... essentially write the history that we know: evil dark elves come drow, poor surface elves that needs saving. Of course, after being send into the darkness, the hatred of the now-drow for their surface kin is quite understandable too, even though it became a more "traditional" thing after a few centuries. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 09 Apr 2010 : 03:42:13
FWIW, the Dark elves appeared to have chosen not to participate in the sundering. Long before they became Drow. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 09 Apr 2010 : 03:41:17
Okay, I do recall that passage, as well. Now, bear in mind, what I am saying is not that SHE reversed it, but that "her" rune, which was intended to allow her to keep the things which made her what she was- in other words, her "drowness" (ie- magic, powers, etc), might have played a PART in bringing High Magic back to the race as a whole. Liriel only meant for the rune to affect her and Fyodor, but it turned out to be much more powerful than she thought, probably because two major artifcts were used in its carving- the Windwalker itself, and the tree. Rune magic has never really been fully codified in game terms, so it might have effects that are not covered by the availabe sources. The way I look at it- and this is just an opinion, but it is just as valid as any other interpretation- when the rune was placed on the tree, its power became "one with the land" as it were, thus affecting all drow, not just the one who carved it. Like I said- it's place AND spirit magic. A drow, by virtue of being an elf, still has that connection to the land and to the Weave, so it is conceivable that the tree drew on that connection. I'm not saying that that alone was enough- not by any means. But when combined with all the other factors that came later- it could very well have been the key that opened the door to High Magic's return for the drow. It's only ocnjecture, of course, but who's to say it didn't happen that way?
Incidently, there's no reason to think that a non-elven artifact would not affect elves just as much as an elven one- the Windwalker was from Rashemen, and the witches there have very strong ties to the land, as well. In any case, the rune she carved was not intended to affect JUST her items, but her very SELF, as I mentioned above. Each rune is a personal thing, tied to the spirit of the caster. Her drow spirit was what made it, through the process of her journey- much like Amer-Indian vision quests or spirit journeys of the real world. As a Celtic Shaman, I have somewhat of an understanding of how spiritual changes can affect the physical world. I believe this is what happened with her, which was sort of the point of the whole journey in the first place. And yes, I'm well aware that they had been using faerzress for a very long time- think of it as another form of High Magic- a substitute, if you will. It might be that she opened the door, but Halisstra's brother (Sorry, still can't remember his name- I had to read the book from the library and have since moved) had to finish the job by regaining the knowledge to use High Magic, since it had long ago been lost- probably when the survivors of Miyeritar stored away the Lore Gems for safe-keeping. Taken as A WHOLE, there is no real reason why it would not work, even if the circumstances might have been a bit contrived. Perhaps we should just agree to disagree on that point.
BTW- thank you for reminding me of that passage- I now have an out for the drow of my world to become "uncursed". My game world uses a continuation of the ritual that was originally used in the Descent, to banish those elves who are considered traitors to their kin. The drow in it are/were "cursed" into their current state from other races of elves (ie- they are ALL former gray, high, or wood elves, or the descendents thereof.) Now I finally have a way for them to return to their former state! (Or to become whatever race their "cursed" ancestors were...) |
| Lady Fellshot |
Posted - 09 Apr 2010 : 01:34:07
Please keep in mind that any time you start talking about drow casting or not casting High magic, one has to take into account the likelihood of what was tried way back when they still had the knowledge of how to cast it. I think it quite likely that after taking a look at what was done to them at the end of the 4th Crown War, most dark elves would have at least tried to nuke Aryvandaar in retaliation. Illythiir was well equipped at the time for casting High Magic of war and had been doing so for a long, long while. After the Descent, they did not... despite having the collective motivation and the knowledge to do so.
For me, this also casts some doubt on drow doing High Magic at a later date, regardless of how unified they think they are.
Then there's this interesting bit of lore...
quote:
Suyoll/"The Revival"
This ritual restores an elf's life health and harmony with the Weave. This is seen as an acceptance back into the community of elves, despite any changes that occur during the elf's life (or death).
This ritual restores an elf's natural state, neutralizing any ill or unnatural effects upon him. It cancels curses of any kind other than those divinely placed (i.e. personally infilicted by a god) and spell effects such as petrification and polymorph. Suyoll allows for the regrowth of full limbs, muscles and organs (such as eyes, tongue, etc). It also negates any magical or nonvoluntary alignment changes. The most advanced form of this ritual involves the restoration of undead elves to a living state as they were 100 years before their deaths or transformations.
DM's note: This ritual is rarely used, for the elves are a stubborn lot and forgiveness is not a virtue they practice often. Thus, any outcast elf or seriously injured elf is often perceived as pitiful or a fool who has learned his lesson for straying from the path of elvenkind. However great sacrifices made for the sake of a clan or kingdom are looked upon proudly, and the suyoll is invoked to honor heroes who act in such interests. This ritual can even be used to restore a drow to status among the Tel'Quessir, though the ritual erases all powers (but not appearance) of the drow (treat as moon elf).
(bold added, page 136 Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves)
The ritual is listed as one that requires at least three High Mages to effect the change on one subject. It still seems like a huge stretch of credulity to think that Liriel managed to reverse something that takes quite a bit of magical muscle to undo on an individual by using a non-elven artifact on a magical tree with the intention of affecting mostly inanimate objects.
Then one has to take into account that in Liriel's time frame, High magic wasn't a part of drow culture anymore. They had gone in other more productive directions, like using Faezress to help defend their cites and enhance items. I'm sorry, but I think that at this point the train of logic for "Liriel restored High Magic to the Drow" derailed and then burst into flames for good measure.
This scroll is officially hijacked.  |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 09 Apr 2010 : 01:05:57
Yes new text becomes canon, and novels are part of canon.
That does not mean new canon makes sense or even looks at the source books to make sure the Novel does not cause an RSE.
Too often as far as I have seen, fiction and some design authors did not look at canon, before they changed it by writing a few words, that the editors allowed to stand for print. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 08 Apr 2010 : 05:23:35
Agreed on all counts. The fact that Liriel found the Windwalker just after she was studying rune magic and ran into Fyodor all smacks a bit of too easy, but it WOULD explain why drowcraft items are now less prone to decay, and why they can now use natural spell-abilities on the surface, even if the explanation is a tad simplistic. I never said that what she did changed anything about the drow themselves, just that it changed their connection to the Weave, through their connection to the land itself, which is what rune magic was intended for in the first place- it was a form of "place magic", but also the magic of spirit, as well. Perhaps it also gave them back High Magic, but of course, as you said, that could be stretching thngs. But then, it could also be said that the incredibly difficult task of Menzo banding together both against Mithril Hall, as well as Lolth's ban on wars in Windwalker series and the self-imposed ban by the priestesses during her Silence might have also contributed to allowing them to use it. That kind of solidarity is, as you say, almost impossible for drow, but given the circumstances, they were forced to change, even if only for a while. Learning to work together might have been the key to getting High Magic back, but it could just as easily have been set in motion by the rune, as well. Looking at each peice on its own doesn't really seem to make sense, but if you take it all together, it might be possible, especially since we are dealing with magic.
I have Cormanthyr, as well, and I do remember reading that pasage not too long ago. But then, apperantly new canon lore trumps old, so I suppose they just decided that they needed a slight change to accomodate all the drow-players out there. And yes, I am fairly sure that the ones Liriel encountered on the surface were usung surface items. In fact, I believe that Daughter of the Drow even mentioned that most of those items had been stolen from surface elves. Those guys WERE Vaerhaunians, after all!!
Also, the ritual in SotW did have the communal support of Sshamath, at least in part, so perhaps that was enough. Not saying that it would not have been extremely difficult and taxing, but it also had the support of EVERY Eilistraeean drow as well. They were in full accord for it to work, as they ALL wished to end the effect of the faerzress. |
| Lady Fellshot |
Posted - 07 Apr 2010 : 17:52:17
I think I might have been misunderstood on a few things, for which I apologize for making myself unclear.
Zanan is right about about drow items on the surface. Underdark (3/3.5 ed) defines a "drowcraft" item as something that makes use of the Faezress to help make the enchantment stronger, but makes them liable to crumbling in sunlight (pg 68). The same book also mentions that Drow like to build their cites in areas of strong Faezress for it's useful defensive properties (pg 48).
I don't see how anything Liriel did changed anything intrinsic to the drow. In particular, I don't see anything that counteracts the following:
quote:
from Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves, 2e sourcebook
The communion of the elves and their spirit is one of the primary reasons they alone have High Magic. High Magic depends on the unity of mind, spirit, emotion and sense of self and community within the High Mage and his surroundings. If a large number of elves are at odds with their community or a High Mage, the emotional conflict can sometimes spill into the Weave and disrupt a ritual, causing even powerful High Magic to fail. Dissension among the elves makes High Magic nearly impossible, for it relies on supportive power from the surrounding community on many occasions. It is a measure of elven solidarity that this has rarely happened since the Crown Wars and the Descent of the Drow...
It is this need for cultural and communal togetherness that makes some theorize (and secretly thank the Seldarine, the Weave and Mystra) that the Dark elves are denied High Magic.
(pg 126-127)
Granted, something might have changed in 3/3.5e to relax this (I do not have the pertinent source books), but I don't recall running across it in the WotSQ or the LP books. The ritual in Sacrifice of the Widow was enough to make me facepalm repeatedly because it never addresses the 2e restrictions, specifically in that high magic needs communal support to act as a surge protector for the casters.
Again, this was a sore point for me and at this point, I think I'm starting to hijack the scroll...
|
| Brace Cormaeril |
Posted - 07 Apr 2010 : 16:41:38
Hey Zek, just followed the link in your sig to check out your character sheet. That's an impressive write-up! I'm a little curious as to your choice of Wizard at 41st level. Since you gain no spellcasting ability taking the Wizard levels at this point in your career, were these 20 levels and the 15 lvls of Shadow Warden purely to increase your caster level for purposes of arcane item creation? |
| Zanan |
Posted - 07 Apr 2010 : 09:14:53
That novel was AFAIK written at the end of the AD&D rules, when drowstuff by default fell apart. Hence the author had to invent somesuch to keep Liriel's items et al functioning. The rise of 3E changed it somewhat.
Always keep in mind: nothing barred the drow of any edition to use normal magical items (e.g. cloaks of elvenkind and +1 swords) or create them. Only items specifically created in conjunction with faerzress were subjected to the sunlight problems. That, as I pointed out when Windwalker et all was out, might well have been what Liriel saw when noticing drow with functional magical items on the surface. Just as food for thought.
BTW, I'm no friend of setting-changing magical artifacts being uncovered by your odd novel hero/-ine. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 07 Apr 2010 : 03:31:22
Lady Fellshot- I would normally agree about the artifact, but remember that Liriel was using a VERY powerful artifact. You're right that it didn't change HER, it simply gave her the power to keep what she already had/was. The rune it cast affected EVERY drow in Faerun, allowing them not only to keep their items from degrading, but to use their own special magic on the surface as well. She created the rune to allow her to keep her magic and everything that made her who and what she was, regardless of where she went. And since it was her drow heritage that was the source of all that, I think the artifact drew on her "drowness" as part of the rune, and thus affected drow in general. Essentially, it was like using a rune magic version of a High Magic ritual of her own. I believe this might have paved the way for many to go topside permanently, thus increasing both Eilistraee's followers and Vaerhaun's, and setting the stage for the WotSQ and LP books. And she DID carve it on Yggdrassil's Child, which I understand is a very powerful magical tree in its own right. Put the two together, and you've got one heck of a spell effect!
And thank you for the clarify, Wooly! |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 07 Apr 2010 : 00:28:00
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Things ...
Make sure what books you refer too. The main sourcebook for FR drow remains The Drow of the Underdark by Ed Greenwood, closely followed by Demihuman Deities, the Menzoberranzan boxed set, Drizzt do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark and Underdark. They should be all available as PDFs from stores selling those.
Actually, no one can legally sell TSR/WotC pdfs right now. They pulled all the sales a couple years back, after a 4E book got pirated. They claimed at the time that they were looking at other avenues for selling such material, but that was the last I heard about it. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 06 Apr 2010 : 16:42:59
Things ...
Make sure what books you refer too. The main sourcebook for FR drow remains The Drow of the Underdark by Ed Greenwood, closely followed by Demihuman Deities, the Menzoberranzan boxed set, Drizzt do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark and Underdark. They should be all available as PDFs from stores selling those.
Do not mix Drow of the Underdark of late 3,5E up with the aforementioned material, since it is indeed core stuff and paved the way for the 4E perception of the drow. You do find valuable information about the drow in other 3,5E material though, such as Fiendish Codex I and the Expedition to the Demonweb Pits.
Novels. I do rate the Lady Penitent stories as some of the better ones of the FR literature, though honestly while presenting loads of lore, they mixed up rules galore, wrecked the whole pantheon and essentially ruined my interest for anything post- and Spellplague FR. Do keep in mind that certain authors (while officially writing canon) do tend to bend the rules or canon as they see fit, not least when it comes to present heroic figures ... and here not least one scimitar-wielder.
If you need a different picture of drow characters, take a look at the descriptions of the house members as given in the Menzoberranzan box (both in the House booklet and the N/PC descriptions of the adventure handouts, ignore the (at the time set-in-stone) CE alignment though. |
| Lady Fellshot |
Posted - 06 Apr 2010 : 15:05:20
An artifact is only as powerful as the original casters and the wielder. I would disagree with you, Sill, on both counts. Besides, I was under the impression that Liriel's spell had a pretty limited scope to slow the decay of drowcraft items on the surface and little else in the first place, iirc. It didn't change her in any fundamental way. |
| Sill Alias |
Posted - 06 Apr 2010 : 12:19:42
The actions of Liriel could affect that in my opinion. It is not question of her power, but of artifact's might. |
| Lady Fellshot |
Posted - 06 Apr 2010 : 08:26:52
I think it unlikely that Liriel had anything to do with reversing the effects of a High Magic Spell powered by Corellon and channeled though a thousand High mages and priests. She's good at magic, but not that good. There's some debate as to exactly what the parameters of that tweak were anyway. 
The problem with pinning down what exactly was done in the Descent is how spread out the Miyeritari dark elves were by that time. Some fled to Illythiir, sure. Others ran to Illefarn and Keltormir which were closer to them, but according to the Grand History all elves changed in the Descent left within two months of being hit with the spell and were considered N'tel'quessir thereafter. So in all likelihood, there were dark elf families in Illefarn that uprooted and left in a very short span of time and were considered "not elves" to add insult to injury.
The skin color concept doesn't work especially well, because sources are contradictory on the topic of what Ssri'tel'quessir looked like before the descent. Greenish, brown, black skinned... It's really pick your favorite color and there's probably a note somewhere that supports it.
It makes me think that what was changed was a great deal less obvious than the Lady Penitent books made out. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 06 Apr 2010 : 07:42:51
I believe the High Magic would have had somthing to do with the Descent. Perhaps when Liriel cast her rune on the tree, she gave them back the ability to use it without even knowing. It's all speculation, and we'll probably never learn the answers to a lot of these questions now, but I like to toss ideas out there. (And yes, I knew it wasn't random, I was just giving an example of how qickly a defect could show up. Granted, a human or elf might not inbreed quite as closely as a cat, but the idea is the same. I was just narrowing it down a bit.)
Faerzress might have had something to do with it, too, but only peripherally. Mostly it seems to have been an agent to keep them down below where they would cause fewer problems. I see it as stripping some inate part of them away- perhaps altering their tie to the Weave just enough to prevent their using High Magic. Lolth might have given them the powers they have as compensation. It would explain why they can levitate and use fairie fire at will, but not cast High Magic. And please, feel free to rant away! Godess knows I do it often enough, lol!
The way I see it, there were enough loopholes and leeway in the tories to interprt it in several ways. I was just tossing out a few theories, and maybe playing devil's advocate- a hobby of mine, I admit. You don't have to take them to heart, but it IS something to think about as explanations and possible avenues to alter things to suit your own campaign. And I do agree about having at least a little logic and reality in my fantasy- otherwise, how would we ever be able to believe magic even exists? This is why I was very careful to keep my homebrew world as real as possible. It just makes more sense that way.
|
| Lady Fellshot |
Posted - 06 Apr 2010 : 06:59:34
*looks at Alystra's post*
*considers the lingering grumpiness over perceived oversights*
*considers the consequences of venting said lingering grumpiness*
Well, maybe it'll make sense to someone else... 
If you want to throw out the credulity stretching genetics (incidentally the "10 generations or less to inbreeding" figure I came up with was not random, but ok, moving on...) and make speculations about details that were not expanded on in the books (which is also ok), then I have this to ask you: Why couldn't the newly formed Drow elves, regardless of region of origin, cast Elven High Magic immediately after the Descent?
I mean, Illythiri were casting war mythals and other non specified nastiness... they would probably like to get back at everyone and their dog... the felt that they had plenty of reason to nuke everyone else already...
Using the Faezeress as the prohibitive agent is problematic, because the Miyeritari and the Illythiiri were still predominately surfacers at the time. It also brings up the question that if all they had to do to use High Magic was get out of the Faezeress, I would think that some clever group of drow would have figured it out long before all the lore got lost (and likely there would be several more places like the High Moor around).
To me it indicates that something beyond a possible demonic taint or pure bloodlines or pervasive spell effect was involved in the Descent, something intrinsic to casting High Magic.
But then, that's just me ranting again... bringing logic into a logic free zone... thinking that it gets harder to suspend disbelief without some solid reality in my high fantasy... Yeah, I'm going to stop now, before I get too carried away.  |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 06 Apr 2010 : 04:56:45
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot
Well, the problem with the date of the founding of Menzoberranzan and "untainted elves" is that the Descent took place around -10,000 DR, after the Dark Disaster (which killed off a lot of Miyeritari houses) and had been under Aryvandaar occupation before that (which had likely resulted in a few more houses getting offed as part of Aryvandaar's quest to suppress rebellion).
The other problem with assuming that the few Miyeritari houses left were able to keep the blood lines pure among the nobles is that genetic lines become inbred and one starts to see unpleasant recessive genes cropping up more frequently the longer an enforced isolation occurs, usually within 10 generations. One need only look at the spread of hemophilia through the royalty of Europe in the late 19th and early 20th century. All those royals had been marrying into the same families for at least a few generations.
Granted that I'm sure that any elflet who looked less than ok got served up to Lolth, but I'm sure they missed a few some of the time. Then there's the standard practice of priestesses choosing partners whenever they want, whoever they want. Perhaps the fallen Miyeritari managed to pull it off in the beginning, but I doubt that it could be kept separate for 50 generations.
As for the Lore gems, well they are things that can get stolen, lost, found, lost again, buried under soft peat for 100 years, found again and forgotten on the mantle for generations and still be considered "an ancient family heirloom."
I really prefer a capricious alignment reason rather than a convoluted mess with bad genetics and even worse cultural understanding. As for Drizzt, well, it really isn't central to his character and so doesn't seem like more than a point of trivia.
I'm really sorry if it sounds like I'm ranting but this was one of a few sore points for me with the Lady Penitent books.
Hmm. Okay, I agree in most respects about the genetics, but for one thing, we are not dealing with real-world genetics. I'm also quite familiar with European royalty and the defects that inbreeding causes. (Goddess knows, I've had cats that inbred to the point of having mentally handicapped kittens, even within six generations. Nothing was wrong physically, but your point is well-taken.) BUT- and I can't stress this enough- Drow are probably one of the most snobbish of the elven subraces, so they would certainly want to keep their lines pure, and would probably have not only taken the steps you mentioned dealing with defects, but would probably have used magic or even divine blessings to prevent them in the first place.
Perhaps those Matrons were simply very careful in choosing mates from other surviving Houses, or they just chose not to mingle with the ones who WERE tainted. Not ALL of the Illithiri dark elves were, just a large number of them, and that number was never really specified, anyway. I just read that as there being some Illithiri who did not wish to breed with demons. And I admit that it's kind of a stretch to assume that, but just from the books alone, it is clear that at least a FEW of the Miyeritari Houses survived intact.
Halisstra and her brother were from one, and the Master of Divination and his son from Sshamath were from another. At the end of the last book, The three aforementioned males all made the transformation. One had become an Eilistraeean, and the others simply did not follow Lolth, but ALL were from surviving Houses- hence why they had Lore Gems from a Miyeritar ruin. (And these had been safely hidden away since the time of the Dark Disaster, so they were not merely lost-found-lost and found items- they were WAITING for their proper owners. And there were possibly one or two other gems claimed from that ruin by transformed descendants as well, though the book never stated for certain.)
Regarding Menzo, the Descent took place around -10,000, and Menzo was founded less than 2,000 years later- still far enough back for there to have been a few Houses left- and there would have to have been, since Ched Nasad was founded by former Menzo drow (remember, House Melarn is one of those) less than 1,000 years after that. Even if it was only two or three Houses left by present times, that's still a decent number of untainted drow. An interesting side-note for those who read the books and forgot, or haven't gotten to them yet, Melarn was originally an Eilistraeean House!!
Don't worry about the rant, BTW. I had several problems with the books, too. I completely disagreed with how the last battle was handled. It made Halisstra look as if she had no will of her own, and was just being played by both sides. Not to mention the question of why Cavatina didn't step in when she could have. As for Drizzt, I just have to shake my head on that one. Poor communication between writers and developers and a lack of any cohesion to the stories and their far-reaching effects. Personally, I prefer him staying the same, though it just doesn't make sense when he's non-evil and does not follow Lolth. Either one of those should have caused him to be transformed. Guess Lisa Smedman didn't take that into account. Or they told Salvatore to ignore it. Or he simply CHOSE to ignore it.... |
| Zek |
Posted - 05 Apr 2010 : 20:30:31
Thank you everyone, and I think that this thread(although originally for information that i had been looking for) May be useful to everyone with similar questions about the Drow as a whole. As for my character, his family and by extension the House in which he hails from I have it in his story somewheres, that the House he hails from does not have demonic blood but dragon blood. Even if it was like.. 20+ generations before him if not longer. Of course by extension the Idea that drow may go to the surface and in that could pair up with a dragon I see is not far out of the question(afterall you have in neverwinter nights 2 the red dragon deciples). In that alone I believe that those whom are of the "dark elf blood" whether pure or not were saved and became the modern 4e Dark elves, and those whom were tainted or remained loyal to Lolth remained Drow.
And in the case of my drow and his family, would have survived the aftermath and became Dark Elves(or whatever the drow whom were saved become in 4e). It is heavily amusing now that I'm seeing everything of the lore coming out how many loopholes there are to the point that pretty much no matter what I do, I am "safe" and still within the realms of canon of dnd, faerun or any other dnd based game. As for the death of Eilistraee one cannot simply "kill" a god even by using their own weapon against them. Personally I believe that she was probably put into slumber of sorts or if anything sealed and hidden in her realm thus "killing" her in the eyes of her followers. (as in so she cannot communicate to her followers at all or they sense her type deal) |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 05 Apr 2010 : 11:21:37
I think thats the one. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 05 Apr 2010 : 10:39:16
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Eldath and another God(I forget who) from the earlier Realms were made into Archfey in BRJ's Sarifal DDI Backdrop article awhile back.
Are you referring to Lurue? |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 05 Apr 2010 : 08:46:21
Corellon did start taking in E's(to lazy to spell her name) Followers at the end of the last book IIRC.
That could be a forshadowing of the future design philosophy. Greater God, Lesser Gods, Exarchs. I don't know really just like to speculate.
Eldath and another God(I forget who) from the earlier Realms were made into Archfey in BRJ's Sarifal DDI Backdrop article awhile back. |
| Lady Fellshot |
Posted - 05 Apr 2010 : 08:39:35
Well, the problem with the date of the founding of Menzoberranzan and "untainted elves" is that the Descent took place around -10,000 DR, after the Dark Disaster (which killed off a lot of Miyeritari houses) and had been under Aryvandaar occupation before that (which had likely resulted in a few more houses getting offed as part of Aryvandaar's quest to suppress rebellion).
The other problem with assuming that the few Miyeritari houses left were able to keep the blood lines pure among the nobles is that genetic lines become inbred and one starts to see unpleasant recessive genes cropping up more frequently the longer an enforced isolation occurs, usually within 10 generations. One need only look at the spread of hemophilia through the royalty of Europe in the late 19th and early 20th century. All those royals had been marrying into the same families for at least a few generations.
Granted that I'm sure that any elflet who looked less than ok got served up to Lolth, but I'm sure they missed a few some of the time. Then there's the standard practice of priestesses choosing partners whenever they want, whoever they want. Perhaps the fallen Miyeritari managed to pull it off in the beginning, but I doubt that it could be kept separate for 50 generations.
As for the Lore gems, well they are things that can get stolen, lost, found, lost again, buried under soft peat for 100 years, found again and forgotten on the mantle for generations and still be considered "an ancient family heirloom."
I really prefer a capricious alignment reason rather than a convoluted mess with bad genetics and even worse cultural understanding. As for Drizzt, well, it really isn't central to his character and so doesn't seem like more than a point of trivia.
I'm really sorry if it sounds like I'm ranting but this was one of a few sore points for me with the Lady Penitent books. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 05 Apr 2010 : 08:36:35
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Steven Schend even said that one could use the Sharn to 'Save some Halruuan Archmages' during the Spellplague. The Order of Blue Fire anyone? Something to that effect.
I figure Sage will come along and correct me on this, so I could be wrong.
You're right -- 'tis the Order of Blue Fire. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 05 Apr 2010 : 08:30:39
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Khelben sacrificed himself to restore the City of Hope, and released alot of the 'Dark Elves that became Sharn' from the Dark Disaster.
I figure Sage will come along and correct me on this, so I could be wrong.
I kinda like the direction the Drow went in late 3E. Then again I was never really into them. I kinda liked the Lady P novels. Plus E's domain didn't dissolve or explode at the end of the last novel. Corellon stepped in and took over. To me that was Corellon re-accepting her back into the Fold. I veiw her as an Archfey now.
I also think that E 'died' in 1387. I don't know. I should probably re-read the books. Too many books and not enough time.
8D]
Intereting. Did not know about the Sharn thing, and am not very familiar with them. That could also perhaps account for some of them? I wonder if any of them became drow later?
I liked the Lady Penitant novels, but not how the last one ended. But like I said, I'm not entirely sure she died. Yes, Quilue was beheaded by the sword with E in her body, but that basically just made her E's avatar, since no mortal body, even a Chosen, can truly contain a deity's ENTIRE esscence- not even Elminster could do that! If you read the last couple of chapters of Ascendancy of the Last, she just sort of "disappears", rather than fading out, or dissolving like the others. And the bit about her domain, like was mentioned earlier. An archfey might work. And you're right, I do think he took her back in.
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| Brimstone |
Posted - 05 Apr 2010 : 08:16:58
IIRC In the Novel Blackstaff we discover that alot of the survivors of the Dark Disaster became Sharn to escape the destruction. Not all of them. So its probably a wash.
Khelben sacrificed himself to restore the City of Hope, and released alot of the 'Dark Elves that became Sharn' from the Dark Disaster.
I also know BRJ had a Sharn article in DDI last summer.
Steven Schend even said that one could use the Sharn to 'Save some Halruuan Archmages' during the Spellplague. The Order of Blue Fire anyone? Something to that effect.
I figure Sage will come along and correct me on this, so I could be wrong.
I kinda like the direction the Drow went in late 3E. Then again I was never really into them. I kinda liked the Lady P novels. Plus E's domain didn't dissolve or explode at the end of the last novel. Corellon stepped in and took over. To me that was Corellon re-accepting her back into the Fold. I veiw her as an Archfey now.
I also think that E 'died' in 1387. I don't know. I should probably re-read the books. Too many books and not enough time.
Interesting discussion going on.
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| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 05 Apr 2010 : 07:52:58
No, of course not, Brimstone. But obviously, some Houses (Melarn for one) came through it without any taint, or very little. As to Menzo being settled from Great Rift, I had forgotten about that, but there again is the possibility of some Miyeritar survivors mingling with the others, or even being among the original settlers. It would make sense, given Menzo's proximity to where it was located- and Menzo was built so far back (-8000 DR or someting?) that there would have been a larger number of untainted ones around then. And given the drow tendancy for keeping their bloodlines "pure" along the family lines, I'd think that like most elves, they would probably have quite a few Houses who could trace their ancestry all the way back at least to a city's founding, if not further. I'm not saying that there would not be a LOT of mingling with the Illithiri ones, but obviously at least a few Houses (mind you, I'm talking about the "nobles" of a house, not the commoner soldiers and servants) came through nearly intact. (Again, Melarn being the prime example from he novels, along with at least two males from a House in Sshamath- can't remember names off-hand. Both of these noble lines still had Miyeritar Lore Gems!)
I agree about the Descent being a huge screw-up, and that was sort of touched on in the books. Hallistra's House was one of those that managed to escape the Dark Disaster, though, and there were several others, because the ruins housed quite a few of the Lore Gems waiting to be claimed.
About the Spellplague- how long after her "death" was that? I know it affected most of them immediately after the ritual was cast, but I'm also wondering if the Spellplague idea was thought up before or after the last book of Lady Penitant came out, and whether Salvatore has said anything about why Drizzt does not seem to have been affected. Even with the taint, he SHOULD have been, based on alignment alone. Quite a few non-evil ones were, just from Sshamath alone. (In fact, given the society there, I'd venture to guess a good percentage of that city.)
BTW, the "Redeemed" drow are considered standard elves, but with the altered appearance, I believe. Don't know all the particulars, as I have purposely stayed away from all things 4th ed after my first bad experience with it, but there's been a lot of talk over at Chosen of Eilistraee (which I'm also active on) about the changes and who was/was not affected. Don't remember which sourcebook it was supposed to be in, though. Don't really care, either, to be honest. The whole thing just leaves a sour taste for me... |
| Lady Fellshot |
Posted - 05 Apr 2010 : 07:03:40
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
No, not ALL of the untainted ones, sorry if I wasn't quite clear- I meant all the untainted ones that were NOT followers of Lolth or otherwise evil. Not a lot of them, to be sure, but combined with all those who were Eilistraeean or otehrwise non-evil of either Miyeritar blood or those who were "redeemed" from evil by virtue of faith or alignment, it adds up to a fair percentage, I imagine.
I'd actually recommend ignoring the "of Miyeritari descent" of that change as utter nonsense. Better to see it as an alignment thing or deity specific than try to pretend that 50 generations of interbreeding with Illythiiri couldn't possibly happen to certain bloodlines. Same thing applies to a demonic taint set that far back. 
quote:
And yes, the demonic blood did make me ask why he was not changed. Near as I can figure it, either he does have a trace, or it has not yet affected him in the novels. As to canon for 100 years after? Salvatore has not gotten to that yet, except for one small excerpt from a conversation he had with someone after the 100 years had passed, but I don't recall if he had changed or not.
Drizzt is still a Drow elf of good alignment. He still has black skin and white hair in the Ghost King which is set the year of the spell plague (I will not rant about the color changes... I will not rant about the color changes). |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 05 Apr 2010 : 06:23:50
The Ilthiry(sp) Dark Elves were from the Shaar area. They were according to LEoF were mating with Demons(Wendonai) and becoming corrupt.(I personally think that is where the Sun Elves got the Idea to become Daemonfey) The more Northern Dark Elves were not. Remember that the Drow that settled Menzo came from the Great Rift area right next door to the Shaar.
Now the Descent was a major screw up, because it affected all of the Dark Elves. Really the only major branch left was the group from down south. The northern group was already demolished due to the Dark Disaster. I believe the Descent was an attempt to cleanse the Southern Dark Elves of the Demonic taint.
I don't know if that makes any kinda sense.
Now in 4E Drow are a player race. Dark Elves are pretty much standard Elves now. I can play a standard Eld and call it a Dark Elf, or I can play a Drow, and be a Drow. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 05 Apr 2010 : 05:28:15
No, not ALL of the untainted ones, sorry if I wasn't quite clear- I meant all the untainted ones that were NOT followers of Lolth or otherwise evil. Not a lot of them, to be sure, but combined with all those who were Eilistraeean or otehrwise non-evil of either Miyeritar blood or those who were "redeemed" from evil by virtue of faith or alignment, it adds up to a fair percentage, I imagine. Which leaves Lolth with all the rest. And I DO accept that part of the canon, at least up to her death and the transformation. I was really intrigued by the idea of her becoming "The Masked Lady" after killing Vaerhaun. (Sorry for any spoilers, folks!!) I just don't buy her getting killed with a mended sword, even if it WAS meant to kill gods. She was in a follower's body at the time, so really only part of her was destroyed. And her realm did not disappear, either, nor is her body floating on the Astral plane like those of Kiaransalee and Vaerhaun. She simply "vanished". As I understand it, all dead gods end up on he Astral, so why isn't she there? As far as I'm concerned, she pulled one over on Lolth by faking her own death, and has retreated for a while, leaving Corellon to hold her domain for her.
And yes, the demonic blood did make me ask why he was not changed. Near as I can figure it, either he does have a trace, or it has not yet affected him in the novels. As to canon for 100 years after? Salvatore has not gotten to that yet, except for one small excerpt from a conversation he had with someone after the 100 years had passed, but I don't recall if he had changed or not. And keep in mind, it was mostly the Illithir dark elves who were tainted, and they seem to have mostly gone more to the South and East in the Underdark, while the Miyeritaran ones seemed to stay closer to the Sword Coast region- where Menzo and Ched Nasad were built. Some apparently made it as far as Sshamath in those books. Other than that? Who knows. I'm just extrapolating from what I read, and comparing it to other sources to get an overall view of where the survivors might have settled. All the rest seem to have been mostly Illithir descent (ie- tained).
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