| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| WarlockII |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 22:42:00
I'm missing a piece of the puzzle. (well many pieces but focus on this piece for now).
The year is 1385 and the spellplague hits!
What exactly happens?. And I'll split that up into 2 questions:
What exactly happens with the rules of 3.5e spellcasting?
Where does it hit first?
The first question I'm sure doesn't need much detail but as for the second question I would like to know what exactly happens in the last 8 months of 1385. Does Halruaa go boom there or the next year?. Can you give me/us some idea of what events happen what year atleast?.
In the campaign I'm running the spellplague is going to happen soon, it will be interesting to play during it but I need to know some list of events for 1385 and 1386 preferably more years but I don't expect to need anything as far into the future as 1387 any time soon.
also a hotspot map of spellplague as it's happening would be great, if anyone has that.
(and no as a game master with a job I really don't have time to go seeping through information in novels I just need the cliff notes to stay somewhat close to cannon, so things like does halruaa blow up in 1385 seems important. How long does the spellplague last?, 1 or 10 years? :P etc. )
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Mar 2010 : 00:28:54
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
How does the spellplague work?
it is impossible to debat that fairly without letting some scribe(s) express how it does not work for them. This can be taken negative and blown up...but it is really an invitation to explain how it does work for you.....and above all it is allright if we disagree.
Sorry for rambling.....thanks for reading...I think I am going on hiatus and remeber how good the discourse here used to be when ideas were exchanged and no topic was off limits to our powerful curiousity and love of the realms.....
It isn't impossible... It's just that the Spellplague is a divisive event, and there are some very strong feelings on each side. We've had some civil and constructive debates, but because of the strong feelings, it's all too easy for people to get overly worked up. |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 12 Mar 2010 : 19:39:34
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Why don't we start a discussion about things that we *want* rather than turn threads like this into a discussion of how we *don't want* what's available?
Cheers
Very well said Erik. I myself am tired of hearing a 4E rant on every other thread.
I think you are seriously over-estimating the amount of 4E rants on the forums. This thread has been the only place I've seen a 4E rant in MONTHS, mostly due to the efforts of the Sage and the Space Hamster.
Ok i'll be clearer then. I hear one on every other thread that I look at and sometimes its not usually a rant, but a side negative comment about 4E that pops in too frequently.
And on topic, I like the idea of a traffic cop to make sure there are no inconsistencies in regards to the stories surrounding the spellplague.
Much like a negative comment about pre 4e or people who dont agree with 4e pops up in about every thread.
Some time ya just gotta ignore the little stuff. This heavy handed thought policing is in my opinion what is killing this forum. Has anyone noticed how rare it now is to see more than 3 or 4 active members logged in? i have seen so many scribes chastised for one or two negative comments , then about the second time it happens...they are gone.
I am not asking anyone to take abuse...but sometime discretion is the better part of valor and you have to live and let live. If you see comment you think is a bit to far, just dont fan the flames...it usually the reaction to something that blows up into a fireball.
I love this place.....but I fear it cannot take many more hits before it is unrecognizable when compared to just even 2 years ago.
Back on to the topic.....
How does the spellplague work?
it is impossible to debat that fairly without letting some scribe(s) express how it does not work for them. This can be taken negative and blown up...but it is really an invitation to explain how it does work for you.....and above all it is allright if we disagree.
Sorry for rambling.....thanks for reading...I think I am going on hiatus and remeber how good the discourse here used to be when ideas were exchanged and no topic was off limits to our powerful curiousity and love of the realms..... |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 12 Mar 2010 : 13:40:21
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Why don't we start a discussion about things that we *want* rather than turn threads like this into a discussion of how we *don't want* what's available?
Cheers
Very well said Erik. I myself am tired of hearing a 4E rant on every other thread.
I think you are seriously over-estimating the amount of 4E rants on the forums. This thread has been the only place I've seen a 4E rant in MONTHS, mostly due to the efforts of the Sage and the Space Hamster.
Ok i'll be clearer then. I hear one on every other thread that I look at and sometimes its not usually a rant, but a side negative comment about 4E that pops in too frequently.
And on topic, I like the idea of a traffic cop to make sure there are no inconsistencies in regards to the stories surrounding the spellplague. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 12 Mar 2010 : 02:11:49
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
I think a Realms of the Spellplague anthology could be an excellent read, and I'd be happy to contribute a story. But it's not the way to satisfy those who think that existing explanations of the Spellplague are nonsensical, partly by virtue of being inconsistent. If you get ten or fifteen fiction writers cranking out short stories about the Spellplague, there are going to be new inconsistencies among their stories, and between the anthology and everything published about the Spellplague previously. From the standpoint of having a single clear, consistent, face-valid explanation and history, you're going to compound the problem instead of fixing it.
I'm not sure I agree... While we did have inconsistencies in 1E and 2E, those were minimized by having a traffic cop to keep everything straight. For a Spellplague anthology, there's a much smaller pool of lore to have to wade thru -- so a dedicated traffic cop should be able to keep everything straight and consistent.
Having a dedicated "traffic cop" did not exist in 3rd Edition, there clearly are signs that there is not one for 4th (Or as WotC declares it, true D&D - with Basic and Advanced merged into one game.) It clearly can be a good idea, however QA/QC (Quality Assurance/Quality Control) has not direct bottom line number. The effects of such a "gate keeper" are indirect. Hard to budget for when administrator is told to cut staff (payroll) costs.
I have seen Editors allow "words" when it appears to me "wards" was intended word, both pass a spell checker - at least mine. I have seen some very respected FR writers failing to refer to the source book when they wrote their novel, short story or a mere article.I have seen, as discussed in other thread, errors not caught by any until after print.
All in all call me frustrated and calling for the "traffic cop" or a gate keeper, it has been missing for years. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Mar 2010 : 01:46:05
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
I think a Realms of the Spellplague anthology could be an excellent read, and I'd be happy to contribute a story. But it's not the way to satisfy those who think that existing explanations of the Spellplague are nonsensical, partly by virtue of being inconsistent. If you get ten or fifteen fiction writers cranking out short stories about the Spellplague, there are going to be new inconsistencies among their stories, and between the anthology and everything published about the Spellplague previously. From the standpoint of having a single clear, consistent, face-valid explanation and history, you're going to compound the problem instead of fixing it.
I'm not sure I agree... While we did have inconsistencies in 1E and 2E, those were minimized by having a traffic cop to keep everything straight. For a Spellplague anthology, there's a much smaller pool of lore to have to wade thru -- so a dedicated traffic cop should be able to keep everything straight and consistent. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 12 Mar 2010 : 00:39:16
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Let me start out this thread by saying that WarlockII and Jakk, I'm on your side here. I am one of those people who loves having lore--who loves having the answers spelled out for me so I can work them into my games and play around them. That's how I best engage with the Realms--providing my own innovation on an established and well-loved canon. So yeah, if they could/would explain every nuance of the Spellplague, I would *love* that. (I would also love to contribute to writing it up, if I ever got the chance.)
<chop>
I figured as much from your previous couple of posts.  That, more than anything, is my biggest problem with the 4E Realms: the feeling of temporal isolation that I get from the material. You can probably guess how I voted on the poll. The temporal disjunction, as you've already pointed out, creates a problem either way: (a) Those who want the detail (like myself and WarlockII) will complain about the lack of information, and will flip a coin between doing the work required to maintain a sense of continuity and creating a new world from scratch (I took door #3 and chose to remain in the Realms and ignore canon). (b) Those who don't want the detail will complain if the information is provided... which I honestly can't figure out. If you don't want the lore, don't use it; some of us like to have it, and we shouldn't be punished for our preference.
I would actually be very interested in the post-Spellplague Realms if this disconnect were repaired, but I suspect that doing so would only lead to the same "problem" that resulted in the Spellplague in the first place. Whether or not it actually was a problem is moot, because it's been fixed... whether you interpret that last word in the handyman sense or the veterinary sense will depend on how you felt about the old Realms.
I'll let this scroll return to its original topic now; it's a topic that I am ill-equipped to comment on, as I have so completely reinvented the Spellplague for my Realms that I'm far more likely to spout homebrew than canon on this matter.  |
| WarlockII |
Posted - 11 Mar 2010 : 22:17:57
I vote The Year of Blue Fire (Spellplague sourcebook)  |
| WarlockII |
Posted - 11 Mar 2010 : 22:16:11
It wasn't so much a rant about 4E (really it wasn't), as it was a rant about the general direction WotC is taking with the concept of detail.
Anyways, Richard if every part of faerun was covered by an author, like you did thay, and the sum of everyones work was compiled in a little book, that would be awesome!.
Sure inconsistent, but I'm sure most wont mind since it's meant to be chaotic. The issue is not so much the inconsistency as the what happened, where and when?
Better yet, a new suggestion. Make an animated clip. Can't be that expensive  . Gives us some idea of what it looked like.
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| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 11 Mar 2010 : 21:43:08
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Why don't we start a discussion about things that we *want* rather than turn threads like this into a discussion of how we *don't want* what's available?
Cheers
Very well said Erik. I myself am tired of hearing a 4E rant on every other thread.
I think you are seriously over-estimating the amount of 4E rants on the forums. This thread has been the only place I've seen a 4E rant in MONTHS, mostly due to the efforts of the Sage and the Space Hamster. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 11 Mar 2010 : 18:43:25
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Why don't we start a discussion about things that we *want* rather than turn threads like this into a discussion of how we *don't want* what's available?
Very well said Erik. I myself am tired of hearing a 4E rant on every other thread.
And on that note: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13391
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
I think a Realms of the Spellplague anthology could be an excellent read, and I'd be happy to contribute a story.
Ditto!
quote:
But it's not the way to satisfy those who think that existing explanations of the Spellplague are nonsensical, partly by virtue of being inconsistent.{snip}
That is a very good point.
I think it could still be helpful, if it were organized/policed a little through careful editing. Each of us writers picks a city/region, and we got to work with the editor (taking into account what's already print, if anything) to develop what happened to that region. Basically, we'd be developing lore and producing a book that is both lore and good fiction, without violating any limitation on print products.
Cheers |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 11 Mar 2010 : 18:08:59
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Why don't we start a discussion about things that we *want* rather than turn threads like this into a discussion of how we *don't want* what's available?
Cheers
Very well said Erik. I myself am tired of hearing a 4E rant on every other thread. |
| Richard Lee Byers |
Posted - 11 Mar 2010 : 17:55:17
I think a Realms of the Spellplague anthology could be an excellent read, and I'd be happy to contribute a story. But it's not the way to satisfy those who think that existing explanations of the Spellplague are nonsensical, partly by virtue of being inconsistent. If you get ten or fifteen fiction writers cranking out short stories about the Spellplague, there are going to be new inconsistencies among their stories, and between the anthology and everything published about the Spellplague previously. From the standpoint of having a single clear, consistent, face-valid explanation and history, you're going to compound the problem instead of fixing it. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 11 Mar 2010 : 15:34:25
Let me start out this thread by saying that WarlockII and Jakk, I'm on your side here. I am one of those people who loves having lore--who loves having the answers spelled out for me so I can work them into my games and play around them. That's how I best engage with the Realms--providing my own innovation on an established and well-loved canon. So yeah, if they could/would explain every nuance of the Spellplague, I would *love* that. (I would also love to contribute to writing it up, if I ever got the chance.)
I could go into a long discussion of the reasons as to whether WotC can, will, or should create a whole sourcebook about the Spellplague. My personal guess is that no, they won't, though I do think a Realms of the Plague anthology is indeed a possibility, and would be an excellent compromise measure--an anthology about the causes, events, and legacy of the Spellplague. This, added to the parts about the Plague that have already appeared in novels and published lore, would seem to give it about as much coverage as the Time of Troubles got--and a great deal more than the 2e/3e transition got (it's already much higher than that).
My only main point is that WotC is in a really, really tough position here, trying to meet such demands. There are some gamers (like you and me) who like to have all the lore--as much as they can get. There are some gamers who *don't* like to have all the lore--indeed, are *offended* by having too much lore. And then there are about a thousand variations in between, of people who want a certain degree of lore vs. demanded creation. My own preference, like I said, is to have lots of lore, which I can pick and choose at my leisure, but people who look at it as I do are not the norm (or, at least, that's what WotC seems to believe). People would rather rail against all kinds of lore they don't want (like all the people who continually decried all the RSEs--events that are SO EASY TO IGNORE), so WotC decided to err considerably on the side of "make it yourself"--giving a few guidelines and letting players go from there.
And you know what? I can't really find fault with that decision. It makes a lot of sense from a business/publishing standpoint. They can't please all the people all the time, so they are trying--with various degrees of success--to please as many people as possible, as much as possible.
What I'd like to see--and I don't know how feasible it would be--would be a Spellplague related anthology (which will give us some coverage) and a Grand History-style rundown of the Spellplague and the last hundred years. The sourcebook would run counter to WotC's publishing plan as I understand it, but I think the anthology at least would work very well.
Why don't we start a discussion about things that we *want* rather than turn threads like this into a discussion of how we *don't want* what's available?
Cheers |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Mar 2010 : 03:50:38
Okay, we've had way more 4E bashing than we need already. We don't need to walk that path yet again. The ruts in that road are already deep enough. |
| WarlockII |
Posted - 11 Mar 2010 : 01:03:45
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
If I'm going to have to come up with all of the details myself, then I may as well just create my own world... which is more or less what I've done now with respect to canon anyway.
Apologies if I sound bitter; I'm doing my best not to, and I don't believe that bitterness serves any purpose other than to leave a bad taste in one's mouth. (Pun intended.) It's my belief that WotC could alleviate a great deal of that bitterness present in the Realms old guard if they simply made the unpublished pre-Spellplague lore available in some form independent of DDI (mostly because they have said that DDI's Realms content will be focused on the post-Spellplague Realms)... but I've said that before, including on WotC's own forums months before giving up and leaving that community over all the 3E-bashing (which experience was largely responsible for the tear of 4E-bashing I went on, for which I can now, as of some months ago, honestly apologize to Candlekeep), and nothing's changed yet.
Okay, I've said enough... and probably stated my case more clearly (certainly more verbosely) than in any other post in these scrolls. Again, thank you for your insight, Erik, and it has been less of a quixotic post than you might think. Anything that makes its readers think is ultimately accomplishing something.
There is a reason 3E took a bashing, and 4E Takes an even greater bashing.
The rules in 3E fixed a lot of garbage in 2E. It made saves something that made sense, and it made everything much more balanced.
However there is a Tendency through 2E --> 3E ---> 4E.
That is: Detail goes from high--->Medium-->Low
Just look at the maps, which I have whined about already.
Now here is the fun part of it:
The Target population for Forgotten realms material has gone
Adults---->Teens--->Children
Now it all makes sense....
4E Rules is pretty much the code for a videogame. For children.
Think of it this way, you're playing NWN, you have 2/99 hp that's 2 hp lefts, you should be in need of HELP, you rest for 10 seconds, and you got 99/99 hp, that's not in 3E rules. Oh... But it is in 4E Limited to X healing surges per day... 3E still makes Biological sense thankfully. 4E is Fantasy, you might aswell change the setting to Final Fantasy where you fall with normal gravity and jump with 1/10th gravity affecting you. It sounds funny to say it's fantasy in a fantasy realm, but I know you know what I'm talking about. Children don't like the idea of permanent damage or death. So lets make the rules so: I present you 4E with similar rules as the ones you see in Acme Cartoons, where gravity only affects you if you're aware that you ran over the cliff.
When it comes to Events, 2E AD&D Books are the most detail you'll find on anything. USe 2E books for background for Campaigns, use 2E Maps if you want detail.
/end Rant
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| WarlockII |
Posted - 11 Mar 2010 : 00:40:51
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Jakk, this is going to be something of a quixotic post, as you've said clearly that the Spellplague doesn't work for you despite any attempts to make it make sense, but for the sake of everyone else reading this thread:
The Spellplague happened a hundred years ago, and most of the people in the setting don't remember it, much less have strict rules and mechanical knowledge of why it affected some places some way and not others. There might well be explanations that we just don't know about. Halruaa might have had certain wards in effect that fed the plague, like a forest full of dry tinder, as opposed to a damp rainforest like Myth Drannor. (Those are analogies--obviously Myth Drannor isn't a rainforest.)
And besides, the Spellplague was by definition inconsistent. Chaos. We're not *supposed* to understand it.
It's way outside my understanding of the Realms as a complex, magical world thriving on thousands of different tiny variations in how everything works to think that we need a single, all-inclusive explanation for this sort of magical apocalypse. And I think it cheapens the Realms to declare any magical event "impossible"--sure, there are *rules of logic* in the Realms, but I don't see the Spellplague as presented as violating any of those rules.
So sure, it might not work for you, but just because it doesn't--and just because we don't have all the facts to explain why it did what it did and didn't do what it didn't do--doesn't mean that it didn't work or doesn't make sense, at least in someone else's opinon.
Does that mean I don't want an absolute explanation of every event? No way! I would LOVE something like that (and would love to present that official explanation myself, by the by), but for now, I am fine with it being unexplained, just like I don't need every aspect of the Realms' history, sociology, and magic explained.
And if you do need those explained, well, there's not much else I can say. I hope you come up with an explanation that suits you. As I see it, the designers left it purposefully ambiguous to encourage you to fill in the gaps yourself--explain as much as you want.
Cheers
I'll assume it's more of an extent for my sake then, since I made the post.
So let me start by pointing out: "I do not want to know why it happened". Obviously the cannon percieved explanation is a lie or at the very least a twisted truth. It's suppose to be unknown so GM's can create the conspiracy. In any case the "truth" should not be easily accessable for "players" maybe put it in a GM book.
Now to my topic: "I WANT TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENED". Saying it happened 100 years ago pokes at my pet pevee a lot!. The idea that we should all start playing in 1480. And use some lame excuse to force players 100 years into the future with no way back.
We all got that the SP was chaos, that doesn't mean you cannot describe what happened. There are words for describing natural disaters in the real world.
I like your "type of wood" analogy. Please more detail. Please describe it. It's like saying new orleans got flooded. Please show me on a map what parts got flooded what parts didn't get flooded. Chaos can be described.
You may not be able to predict chaos, but you certainly can describe what it did after it happened.
GM's should not be inventing what did or did not happen in the past, that information should be accessable. Now why some things happened. That you can keep to yourself. So don't assume we want an absolute explanation of events, we don't. Because then the players will know, and complain/whine.
We don't need every aspect of ancient history because..... "it's ancient history!!!!!!!", noone cares, about anything except the outcome of events 10k years ago.
We do want every aspect of the SP, because it's "NOT ancient history". As much as you want us to pretent it is by trying to force us into playing the setting of 1480, a lot of us well not just stop playing our games and trash our characters.
And things that are not ancient history, are first of all interesting and very very relevant. And please don't tell me you're surprised that some Gamers actually want to "play" through the year 1385.
and finally, it's pretty clear, from what I've heard so far, among other things its mentioned a few times in this post: "the designers didn't really know what they were doing". I do it all the time as a GM, I make something happen and try to find a good explanation to why it happened afterwards, something that fits. Otherwise why in the world basicly tell a writer: "yeah do whatever, SP is chaos we haven't really decided how it effects thay".
And like I said, it's fine that the designers haven't really desided why it happened, or how it happened. They need to sell Copywrite to more NWN and BG etc. Games, and if the PC game team decided Cyric didn't do it, well then something else happened, what ever they want to happen. $ <--- is the only thing that knows why and how it happened.
I'm bitching, because at the moment $ is also the one that knows what happened. And as should be pretty clear from my tone "I'm not cool with that as a GM".
I want "The Complete Spellplague" Forgotten realms book. Go make it  |
| Jakk |
Posted - 10 Mar 2010 : 19:01:52
Actually, Erik, that made much more sense to me than you might expect. Thank you very much for taking the time to make that post.
I'll clarify one thing: The Spellplague as published didn't work for me for reasons other than the (apparent) illogicity of its effects (which you have nicely resolved for me, thank you), mostly because it wiped out or greatly changed areas that I still had plans for (Halruaa, Thay) and got rid of too many NPCs (particularly Halaster; I'm assuming Larloch is still around, given the NDAs in place, but I am curious about Aumvor and Ioulaum the Elder Brain). I agree entirely that a single all-inclusive explanation is impossible at the level of detail at which Ed's Realms exist, and I'm not saying that the Spellplague is impossible, either; I've played and DMed in the Realms for over 20 years now and I can't admit to the impossibility of anything after the last party I DMed through an entire campaign (over ten years ago, back in late 2E) used stone shape and a random wild surge to put animated feet on a stone sarcophagus, then proceeded to outfit it with boots of striding and springing. As I've posted elsewhere in these halls, I've completely reimagined the Spellplague and its effects, but that lack of detail has been my biggest sticking point with the 4E Realms over anything else; If I'm going to have to come up with all of the details myself, then I may as well just create my own world... which is more or less what I've done now with respect to canon anyway.
Apologies if I sound bitter; I'm doing my best not to, and I don't believe that bitterness serves any purpose other than to leave a bad taste in one's mouth. (Pun intended.) It's my belief that WotC could alleviate a great deal of that bitterness present in the Realms old guard if they simply made the unpublished pre-Spellplague lore available in some form independent of DDI (mostly because they have said that DDI's Realms content will be focused on the post-Spellplague Realms)... but I've said that before, including on WotC's own forums months before giving up and leaving that community over all the 3E-bashing (which experience was largely responsible for the tear of 4E-bashing I went on, for which I can now, as of some months ago, honestly apologize to Candlekeep), and nothing's changed yet.
Okay, I've said enough... and probably stated my case more clearly (certainly more verbosely) than in any other post in these scrolls. Again, thank you for your insight, Erik, and it has been less of a quixotic post than you might think. Anything that makes its readers think is ultimately accomplishing something. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 10 Mar 2010 : 15:07:35
Jakk, this is going to be something of a quixotic post, as you've said clearly that the Spellplague doesn't work for you despite any attempts to make it make sense, but for the sake of everyone else reading this thread:
The Spellplague happened a hundred years ago, and most of the people in the setting don't remember it, much less have strict rules and mechanical knowledge of why it affected some places some way and not others. There might well be explanations that we just don't know about. Halruaa might have had certain wards in effect that fed the plague, like a forest full of dry tinder, as opposed to a damp rainforest like Myth Drannor. (Those are analogies--obviously Myth Drannor isn't a rainforest.)
And besides, the Spellplague was by definition inconsistent. Chaos. We're not *supposed* to understand it.
It's way outside my understanding of the Realms as a complex, magical world thriving on thousands of different tiny variations in how everything works to think that we need a single, all-inclusive explanation for this sort of magical apocalypse. And I think it cheapens the Realms to declare any magical event "impossible"--sure, there are *rules of logic* in the Realms, but I don't see the Spellplague as presented as violating any of those rules.
So sure, it might not work for you, but just because it doesn't--and just because we don't have all the facts to explain why it did what it did and didn't do what it didn't do--doesn't mean that it didn't work or doesn't make sense, at least in someone else's opinon.
Does that mean I don't want an absolute explanation of every event? No way! I would LOVE something like that (and would love to present that official explanation myself, by the by), but for now, I am fine with it being unexplained, just like I don't need every aspect of the Realms' history, sociology, and magic explained.
And if you do need those explained, well, there's not much else I can say. I hope you come up with an explanation that suits you. As I see it, the designers left it purposefully ambiguous to encourage you to fill in the gaps yourself--explain as much as you want.
Cheers |
| Jakk |
Posted - 10 Mar 2010 : 05:49:37
While I applaud the efforts of Mr. de Bie, Mr. Byers, and others (chief among them Ed Greenwood and Brian James) to make sense of the Spellplague, it doesn't work for me. If Halruaa was obliterated the way it was, why wasn't Thay? Sure, everybody died, but that was because of Szass Tam and Thakorsil's Seat, not the Spellplague running wild through wizards and magical items. Thay should be just as much a blackened ruin as Halruaa, as should both Evermeet and Myth Drannor. The less said about Netheril in this context, the better. The floating cities should have cratered, and the magically-restored lands should have either reverted to desert or become plaguelands. (I'm for option #2 myself.)
WarlockII: The short answer to your question: So how does the spellplague work? is: It doesn't. This is no fault of the authors, as far as I can tell, who have done their best to work with what they are given... but in my opinion, something is broken conceptually, and Brimstone nails it in his latest post (I think). From what I've read, yes, the Spellplague was attracted to high concentrations of magic... but it didn't do nearly as much to Thay and Evermeet as it did to Halruaa, and it did next to nothing to Netheril. That's my biggest (in fact, only) problem with the Spellplague itself. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 16 Feb 2010 : 18:01:00
A forest fire is a great analogy.
Why does a fire go one way and not another?
Maybe the Spellplague was 'attracted' to places where the Weave was being used. (Halruua(sp), Thay)
Yet the area's where the Weave was anchored it by passed? (Places with Mythal's)
Interesting to think about. |
| WarlockII |
Posted - 16 Feb 2010 : 17:08:23
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
I had a free hand plotting the trilogy as long as Thay came out looking like it was supposed to look in 4e, and as long as Undead gave people a look at the Spellplague. So the story's pretty much all mine.
When I wrote the book, I did try hard to be consistent with all the information about the Spellplague that was available. The catch was that "all" was not much. I was writing the novel at the same time the Spellplague and the 4e Realms were being conceptualized, so the information WotC gave me was very sparse.
For that reason, things you read in the novel may not seem entirely consistent the way the Spellplague is portrayed elsewhere. But I like to think that my book is the final, definitive word about the way the disaster happened in Thay, After all, it was a chaotic, magical disaster. It makes sense that it might have manifested differently from place to place.
In the novel, walls of blue fire sweep across the land, altering everything they touch, even the landscape itself, killing living things more often than not, but sometimes mutating them in monsters. The Weave has collapsed, but magical energy still exists. As a result, arcane magic still works right some of the time, but not always. It may simply do nothing, or it may cause unpredictable effects.
I didn't depict mages simply dropping dead or going mad. This may have happened elsewhere, but it didn't happen to any great extent in Thay. In fact, the more accomplished mages make fairly rapid project getting themselves back up to speed. One thing they quickly learn is, the more basic the spell, the more likely it is to work properly.
Divine magic generally remains reliable throughout. So do the intrinsic supernatural abilities of outsiders, undead, elementals, and their ilk.
And, the Spellplague is happening in the middle of the Thayan civil war, which makes the disaster even more disastrous.
That's one thing I find odd too. Which means this clarification is very very helpful. There are some major inconsistensies with how the plague is portrayed, from different sources.
The main thing that I've been contemplating is what the first wave does. As you write it walls of blue flame run over the land like a forrest fire I assume. Killing living things more often then not. Yet oddly enough many Wizards survive suggesting that the walls of fire can be "avoided", even by the ones who should be the main target of the plague the Casters.
Other places the blue fire is everywhere not comming in waves sweaping the land but hits everything.
Other places the blue fire is not harmful to living things like you expect from fire, (you don't burn and feel pain within seconds).
A curious thought just struck me again. Does the plague effect these classes differently?
Wizard
Sorcerer
Warlock
Spellfire user
My early thoughts was that the greater a wizard you are the more nucleor you go during the first wave. That doesn't fit with thay, what you get is mostly a bad shock. And only death if you're unlucky or reckless.
Are you suggesting that outsiders spell-like abilities are unaffected the ones that they "cast" as a sorcerer of level X. Such as Teleport without error (most demons). (it can be made to make sense assuming they fuel them with souls), but it wasn't my first thought on how it would affect (not affect) outsiders.
The concept that simple spells have less chance of failing is great, something I am very comfortable with using, with similar house rules. Much thanks for that bit of crucial info
But mainly thank you very much for letting me know how little you knew about the spellplague while writing the book. I think it's safe to assume what you wrote about thay is Cannon, or will be. I suspect WotC wont be taking any new big risks any time soon . Which means something exceptionally important.
That since the spellplague is so Chaotic, what you said happened in thay is cannon and therefore could also happen other places because of the chaos. Even if a later sourcebook about the spellplague says something different about another area, there is no reason why the some part of the area could not be affected like thay.
leaving me with the first real bit of good hard descriptive information that I can safely use to tell my players what happens the day the first wave hits
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| Richard Lee Byers |
Posted - 16 Feb 2010 : 02:37:19
Whoops. I made some typos in the preceding post. That's what happens when you hurry. "Consistent the way" should be "consistent with the way." "Mutating them in monsters" should be "mutating them into monsters." Instead of "project," I meant "progress." |
| Richard Lee Byers |
Posted - 16 Feb 2010 : 02:07:08
I had a free hand plotting the trilogy as long as Thay came out looking like it was supposed to look in 4e, and as long as Undead gave people a look at the Spellplague. So the story's pretty much all mine.
When I wrote the book, I did try hard to be consistent with all the information about the Spellplague that was available. The catch was that "all" was not much. I was writing the novel at the same time the Spellplague and the 4e Realms were being conceptualized, so the information WotC gave me was very sparse.
For that reason, things you read in the novel may not seem entirely consistent the way the Spellplague is portrayed elsewhere. But I like to think that my book is the final, definitive word about the way the disaster happened in Thay, After all, it was a chaotic, magical disaster. It makes sense that it might have manifested differently from place to place.
In the novel, walls of blue fire sweep across the land, altering everything they touch, even the landscape itself, killing living things more often than not, but sometimes mutating them in monsters. The Weave has collapsed, but magical energy still exists. As a result, arcane magic still works right some of the time, but not always. It may simply do nothing, or it may cause unpredictable effects.
I didn't depict mages simply dropping dead or going mad. This may have happened elsewhere, but it didn't happen to any great extent in Thay. In fact, the more accomplished mages make fairly rapid project getting themselves back up to speed. One thing they quickly learn is, the more basic the spell, the more likely it is to work properly.
Divine magic generally remains reliable throughout. So do the intrinsic supernatural abilities of outsiders, undead, elementals, and their ilk.
And, the Spellplague is happening in the middle of the Thayan civil war, which makes the disaster even more disastrous. |
| WarlockII |
Posted - 16 Feb 2010 : 01:37:50
Odd that those two articles completely ignore Thay.... Unless
hmm
while you wrote the book, where did you get your information?
Did the WotC just say "here is thay do what you like just make sure szass comes out on top people like him". Hehe :P
Or did they forcefeed you everything they wanted to happen in the novels?
I'm assuming a mix, which means I'm assuming you're the first source for maybe some information on the spell plague. So now I'm curious, how much of the spell plague information you "created" in your book Undead, was free from your own imagination? 
And wanna maybe share some thoughts on it? 
If you could that would be exceptionally helpful
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| Richard Lee Byers |
Posted - 16 Feb 2010 : 00:56:27
WarlockII: I didn't say or intend to imply that you "should" do anything. I was just pointing out that a resource exists that you might conceivably find useful. Okay, I admit it wouldn't have broken my heart if you'd bought the book as a result, but I didn't think it was an obnoxiously hard sell. But hey, sorry it irritated you. |
| WarlockII |
Posted - 16 Feb 2010 : 00:52:00
looks like I just found something close to what I was looking for
http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drfe/20080227a
http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drfe/20080130a
though the read is a little confusing:
quote:
Cormyr is struck hard, but not so violently as many other nations. Roughly one third of all Wizards of War are slain, driven mad, or simply have gone missing in the year following Mystra's death
quote:
The plague raged on and on in ever-widening spirals, leaving some places completely untouched (such as many northern lands of Faerűn, including Cormyr and the Swordcoast), and radically altering others (such as Muhorand, Unther, and points south).
hit hard or not at all hmmmmm??  |
| WarlockII |
Posted - 16 Feb 2010 : 00:14:51
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
if you don't feel like reading the book, now or ever, you won't and shouldn't. It's just a piece of entertainment. There's no earthly reason for anyone to bother with it unless he wants to, and I would never dream of suggesting otherwise (except in jest.)
On the other hand, I don't see that I was in any way obligated to invest the time to write out a neat little synopsis of the aspect of the novel that does interest you, so I don't really understand why you got annoyed
You're not obligated to help me of course, and I'm not very annoyed at you, as I am at WotC about this particular irritation that they decided to not make a spellplague sourcebook explaining the event before creating 4e.
What annoys me is that spellplague information has been Shattered and little pieces of it pop up different places together with tons of stuff (that you need to buy regardless of your interest in 4e or your novels). I'm pretty sure you're not the one who decided to market it this way.
But look at it from my perspective, just telling me the info I need is swimming around halfway through your triology can very easily be interpritated as, "you should go buy my book if you want to know". Since you're taking the time to tell me this much but not anything else. Now it's perfectly reasonable if you don't want this information readily availible, so more people will buy the book. Even though it really annoys me I'm sure some fans love to read through tons of material just to get an idea of what the spell plague is.
I do however find it odd that you can't see why this might annoy me  |
| Richard Lee Byers |
Posted - 15 Feb 2010 : 23:02:08
WarlockII: Sorry my response rubbed you the wrong way. You specifically asked about the effect of the Spellplague on Thay, and I thought you might find it helpful to know that this is, in fact, depicted in a novel. Obviously, if you don't feel like reading the book, now or ever, you won't and shouldn't. It's just a piece of entertainment. There's no earthly reason for anyone to bother with it unless he wants to, and I would never dream of suggesting otherwise (except in jest.)
On the other hand, I don't see that I was in any way obligated to invest the time to write out a neat little synopsis of the aspect of the novel that does interest you, so I don't really understand why you got annoyed |
| WarlockII |
Posted - 15 Feb 2010 : 20:37:31
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
You can see the Spellplague hit Thay in my novel Undead.
I know that some of the information I'm looking for can be found in that book. When I have time I might actually read that series. But for now I'm just a game master enjoying a rather big complicated game, with more then a dozen players. I enjoy it but the rest of my time goes to my job and my studies I simply don't have time to go look for the information I need as a gamemaster in tons of novels, when all I need can most likely be written in a few lines. I use forgottenrealmswiki, this place, my old RP books :), ánd a few other sources to make my world cannon.
And you just know players will want to know what happens to thay during the spell plague because 1: they are players, 2: it's actually a little relevant, and 3: it is interesting. So a somewhat crude picture of how the 1st wave of spell plague hits thay would be great so I'm not just pulling shit out of my ass when the spellplague hits my campaign.
And no I most certainly will not indulge the idea of putting my players on ice for a 100 years just so it fits with WotC ideas of what they think is fun.
my campaign is controlled by the players and they tend to not like getting told what to do. So I'm going to throw the spellplague in their faces, and yeah they've had warnings. And we'll play through the spell plague and see how it goes.
sorry if my tone is changing but this is my one pet pevees with WotC. Most if not all NPC's in the world get royally screwed over by the spellplague but they are suggesting that players find some excuse to go 100 years into the future they even suggest that gamemasters force players down that path. And they suggest it bluntly in the forgotten realms campaignsettting 4e. And to rub it in our faces they neglect to puplish any worthwhile sourcebook on how the spellplague hits essentially forcing some people down that path.
So basicly we are being told: "well you could stay in this time but we wont be puplishing anything about what's happening, or you could go 100 years into the future and know exactly what's happening in the world".
Well like I said my players don't like being told what to do. And neither do I. So I'd like to know what's happening in 1385.
and I really can't care less what's happening in 14--'ish most likely this campaign will not get there for another 10 years or so that's real life years.
Unlike most people the spellplague doesn't bother me at all. the event itself is great. I think it takes a lot of courage to change a product like that, and I think it will do wonders for any campaign to play through such an event.
Which is why I also hate it, I hate it just about as much as I love it because it takes a lot of stupidity to change a product like that and then not say what's happening. And that bothers me, the lack of a sourcebook which is all about the spellplague and nothing else. Instead we got a 100 year post spellplague book full of useless information that you have to nitpick through, to get anything useful, in an obvious and therefore insulting attempt to force me to read 4e, assuming this will make me buy into the new product.
So Richard you can see what part of your answer bothers me here. I need information about the spellplague, I don't need to read your entire series, I might very well read it. But if I do read it, it will be because it has good reviews, I have time, and I feel like reading about szass tam, not because I need some information about the spell plague, that I'm sure can be summed up in less then a page.
No offence to your work. But you obviously know the answer and chose to say "go buy my book" instead. And it being the second book of a triology, there is a good chance I'd read the first book first and after eading the first two I'll probebly read the last one as well.
And that was not the answer I was looking for.
(Btw I'm not saying I wanna know why it happened, As you can tell in my post I have no problem with making stuff up about why. Players shouldn't know why anyways, so the information shouldn't be out there anyways. but "how", "what happened", that is a different story.)
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| Richard Lee Byers |
Posted - 15 Feb 2010 : 18:14:18
You can see the Spellplague hit Thay in my novel Undead. |
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