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 Lathander, Amaunator, and the Risen Sun 'Heresy'

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Menelvagor Posted - 26 Mar 2009 : 07:37:35
Well, I assume some don't know the story, so here are the basics:

The Risen Sun heresy is the belief that the time of Lathander's transformation is nigh and Amaunator is about to return. The Brotherhood of the Glorious Sun has long existed within the church of Lathander, tolerated by other followers of the Morninglord and preaching that Lathander is the reincarnated form of Amaunator. Believers of the Risen Sun take this one step further into heresy.
Sunlord Daelegoth Orndeir, the leader of the Brotherhood, has embraced the Risen Sun heresy and since 1374 DR has sought to make it the core belief system of those faithful to Lathander. He has accomplished this by recruit converts to the faith of Amaunator through preaching and performing miracles.
On Midsummer of 1374 DR he performed a miracle, creating a second sun over the city of Elversult that never sets, viewable from 150 miles away. Converts flocked to the city in droves while the church of Lathander pondered on what to do. Sometime over the next century, Amaunator replaced Lathander just as Daelegoth predicted.

So, supposedbly, the beleif of the Risen Sun heresy, that Amaunator would replace Lathander came true. It was a prophecy, and should have happened.
But what if that isn't what really happened? What if Amaunator replaced Lathander, simply because all of Lathander's beleivers started beleiving he had given his power to Amaunator? We know gods can lose their power if they lose their followers. So what if it was simply the effect of people beginning to beleive in Amaunator rather than Lathander? Kind of like a self-fulfilling prophecy. 'We know Amaunator replaces Lathander, so we now have to pray to Amaunator'. Somewhat like the Christian crisis towards 1000, beleiving the world was ending?
This would mean, of course, that Lathander and Amaunator are separate deities, and that Lathander still exists, just like Amaunator did.
Any thoughts?
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
George Krashos Posted - 05 Jun 2012 : 01:36:07
quote:
Originally posted by Branimir

George Krashos, Therise makes a good point. Your theory is as valid as any but you haven't convinced me to believe in it.



I'm glad, because I wasn't trying to convince anyone of anything. My take on the Realms and their gods are so very different to all of yours that I wouldn't even contemplate doing so. Just presenting options. It's what makes the Realms awesome. Those FR fans who constantly search for 'definites' and 'absolutes' are often the most dissatisfied.

-- George Krashos
Branimir Posted - 04 Jun 2012 : 18:00:32
In order from my last post:

Gray Richards, what you say reflects history but it does not indicate the presence of a tripartite god. Assuming I'm right, that only one god of the sun can be present in the realm at a time, perhaps they are also made to take turns in that fashion. And that in the realm of the gods, there are many gods of the sun, many of dawn, high noon, dusk, et cetera, that we just don't know about, who may be present in other realms. Perhaps Lathander is still doing his duty somewhere else now.

Therise, Lathander comes back after the Spellplague, so he can't be dead. But you make a lot of good points that I agree with. It makes no sense that Amaunator and Lathander are even related, aside from the sun connection their portfolios seem vastly different to me. As a follower of Lathander, I would never worship Amaunator. I personally will not play 4th edition at all, I'll play 3.5 till an edition set after the Spellplague comes out so I can still serve Lathander. This whole business with the Risen Sun heresy implies the possibility that Lathander is Amaunator and some in the realms truly believe it, but it is not specifically stated as the fact of what happened. There are still those in the realms that do not believe in the Risen Sun heresy, and I personally choose to believe that it is heresy and Lathander is perfectly fine waiting for his turn to come up again.

George Krashos, Therise makes a good point. Your theory is as valid as any but you haven't convinced me to believe in it.

Crazedadventurers has a point in that the Risen Sun heresy adds for more plots to play in the realms, it also creates long philosophical discussions (such as this 3 year running thread) but the tripartite system is still in question, it is not fact that Lathander is Amaunator, only some people believe in the Risen Sun heresy.

Therise, yes Amaunator came back and Lathander left, and of course the Risen Sun heretics say "See! Proof!" but its not actually definitive proof.

Gray Richardson, it took you longer than necessary to make that point but I get what you're saying. Basically that when the portfolio, the name of a god and what he represents, comes up its not necessarily the same being that held that name and portfolio last time, right? However this has already been discussed. For your second point, I believe gods can change and mature, but not completely turn into different beings with an entirely unrelated portfolio, thats just ridiculous. If he kept his name and most of what he represented, minor changes at most to his portfolio, and his personality changed, I could accept that. For your third point about worshippers somehow changing the deity, I don't agree with. The deity is an independent entity, they are who they are, people worship them for who they are, they don't worship just any deity and decide they want it to be how they want it and the deity changes for them, that's a ridiculous notion.

Lathander may have been granting spells to those who worshipped Amaunator, but it is pure speculation that he actually got anything out of it. I can understand the deities taking turns, I don't think Therise was saying that the cycle was pointless, only the concept of a tripartite god as pointless in this case. I don't have an opinion on whether a tripartite god is pointless or not, but I do think Lathander and Amaunator make no sense for being parts of one. A lot of your argument is to support how the Risen Sun heresy could some how be true, it seems almost like grasping at straws, any half-baked theory you can make to explain how Lathander could become Amaunator. Why have you not considered that he just isn't?

Therise, if Lathander is the one who granted those miracles (which I find debatable still) then he may have had a good reason, for example one previously stated, that he knew he would die during the Spellplague if he stuck around so he wanted to take off and let Amaunator have his turn already. Or maybe he has another realm he works on in his off hours who needed him more than his followers in this realm. Or perhaps simply it was his turn to step down and he liked Amaunator better than the other candidates for his replacement. I agree with your point about a good deity doing evil being contradictory, it makes no sense to me which is why I do not believe that its true. I don't think Lathander did any of those bad things, its just what the heretics want you to believe. I think that Lathander expects his believers to know him better than that, and have faith in him, that's why he didn't bother to set them straight, because religion is about faith, even with gods that communicate directly.
Lord Karsus Posted - 03 Jun 2012 : 20:22:09
-As evidenced by the incongruities and seemingly problematic elements regarding heresies and deities permitting them, this is why I see, more and more, that mortals knowing for certain that deities exist, and possessing the ability to interact with them on a direct basis just doesn't work, realistically. As we saw in Road of the Patriarch, heresies or corrupt church officials cause so many cans of worms, when they are introduced.
Eilserus Posted - 03 Jun 2012 : 19:37:08
The Lathander change to Amaunator has me interested for more lore regarding it. Personally, I prefer Lathander, but Amaunator seems to have a more militaristic bent than Lathander ever did. I really am looking forward to lore about Elturgard. It reminds me of the Kingpriest era in Dragonlance, which was always interesting, because they were "good" villains as far as I perceived them. Hopefully we see some new lore in 5E or a DnD article sometime. ;)
Therise Posted - 03 Jun 2012 : 19:27:05
Gray, as usual you have a thoughtful and interesting response. If I disagree with any of your points, just know that it's more that I'm trying to explain my dislikes about the theories/canon rather than any of it being personally directed.

quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson

IMHO Lathander was a separate being from Amaunator, and I believe Amaunator was/is truly dead. Lathander was part of the Talfiric pantheon, and Amaunator was Netherese. As the survivors of Netheril merged with the Talfirs and other cultures to become the greater Faerūnian pantheon, Amaunator "died" from lack of worship as Lathander grew in power. It may have taken a few centuries for Amaunator to be completely forgotten, but Amaunator essentially died when Netheril fell. Lathander's worship replaced him as Lathander's faith spread from the Talfir region throughout the rest of Faerūn. Amaunator might be seen as "setting" in different places at different times in the same way that the sun has time zones, and the sun may have set in the East, while in the West the sun is still above the horizon. I believe that Faiths & Avatars states this process took just shy of a thousand years for Amaunator to be "forgotten" enough for his body to show up in Astral Plane.

I have no problem with any of this. Actually, I quite like it and think that it makes a great deal of sense. It's the much more recent stuff that I take issue with.

quote:
I don't think the sun god should be thought of as a trinity. It's not one god with 3 faces. They aren't avatars of a single divine entity so much as a linked set of 3 portfolios, or offices, that can't be held simultaneously by the same god and that rotate in power in succession. The sun gods are not the same people. They don't really morph into one another. Think of it more like the presidency of the European Union, which operates in trios elected for 18 month periods with each one of the trio taking charge in turn as president for 6 months of the cycle. Although the Faerūnian cycles seem to last millennia (although the exact length seems to vary).

Based on everything we know about the gods so far, and how portfolios work generally, I agree that the "sun god" (if s/he exists) can't really be seen as an actual trinity (three faces in one single being). But I do wonder, why the necessity of having such an entity? What does it do for the Realms, or explain, that cannot be explained with individual deities in a simpler way? The rotating trio of a EU Presidency has a purpose at its core, a definite function. Why the need for this "sun god" that isn't a trinity but is instead a set of linked portfolios?

quote:
With the Faerūnian solar cycle, what ascends in power is not the god so much as the portfolio. At the end of his "term" the holder of the office dies or goes dormant or surrenders the office somehow. That portfolio then goes away for some amount of time. No god can hold it (at least actively) while the other two portfolios are "above the horizon." When one of the other portfolios "sets," the retired portfolio rises, and then someone takes possession of the office.

I think what you're suggesting is that the raw power of the gods that become involved with the tripartite portfolio will rise and fall depending on the ascendancy of a given "face" of the tripartite portfolio. In that way, part of the reason that Myrkul died wasn't just that he was cast down as a mortal but because he was losing power anyway because of the rising face of highsun. Once linked to this tripartite portfolio, your power doesn't just depend on your followers, in other words.

On the surface, I don't have any objection to the idea, but it still seems like an overly complex thing to have as part of the "system." Now I don't mind that gods die, or gain/lose power for mysterious reasons, but in this case it seems like there are serious disadvantages for any deity linked to this "thing" for lack of a better word.

quote:
Not necessarily the same god who had it before, though. Just because the portfolio becomes active again, doesn't mean that the former possessor of it comes back to life, or that one god morphs into the new one. Lathander changing into Amaunator appears to be an exception to the norm, but more on that below.

Lathander had been around for a millennium and a half. If people can change why not gods? Lathander was always impetuous, daring, starting things but never fininshing them. He definitely had a little ADD. This may have been a sign of his youth. As he aged, probably became more mature, focused, less rash, more interested in the long goal. Growing up and maturing seems like a natural progression for a god. Is it so surprising he would change.

I'm all for the gods being dynamic, but I also think their changes should make sense for their faithful. A mature Lathander with less ADD, less arrogance and risk-taking would totally make sense to me. But in this case, if the "truth" of 4E is actually true, we have him doing some pretty awful things to his most powerful faithful. Why lie to your highest priests, or conceal truth for ages, when it would make much more sense to explain things to them? Why go through the division of his church with two crazy heresies?

At the root of it, his support of the heresies bothers me a great deal. Now if some other deity like Cyric (or some demon or shadow fiend) had been lying to Daelegoth (sp?) and granting him miracles, that would make more sense to me. But the "truth" of 4E is that it was all Lathander, lying and withholding information, and acting super crazy and inconsistent... so he could become lawful and good? It suggests, on some level, that even the good deities are just "honeybadgers" that don't really give a rip about their church dogma or the mortal side of things, so long as they get their power.

quote:
Consider also that gods are subject to the belief of their worshipers. This belief can change the appearance, portfolios, and even the alignment of a god. I actually think that mass belief of mortals can change a god's perception of himself, alter his memories, even alter his past timelines, even possibly change his blood relations, their realities are so subject to mortal belief that a god might change from a brother or son of a god to that god's father. Some scoff at this notion, but I submit that gods do not have an object reality as mortals do, that their reality is always subject to editing by a critical mass of belief. Which is why heresies can be so dangerous to a god.

Based on the rules, information and reveals to date, I'm inclined to agree that this is the way things work for the gods in canon. In many ways, they're probably at the mercy of their followers "mobthink" and - as you suggest - even their memories and actions might be reshaped over time, or rapidly as part of a widely growing heresy.

But I've never liked this approach to the gods. If true, once a god ascends, it would seem like they'd want to minimize the effects of mortals' beliefs on their essence/nature. To do so, they ought to develop dogmas, keep heresies to a minimum, and make sure their clergy are teaching the right things to do and believe at all times. Heck, there's even a mechanism for punishing heresy generally: the god essentially rejects you for your heresy and you become a permanent servant of Kelemvor (or Myrkul, or Jergal, depending on the era).

Further, "mob rule" in real life (and presumably mobs in the Realms are the same) never works out well for maintaining order and peace. Why would anyone choose to be shackled by this very huge limitation? Seems like anyone after power would never actually want to ascend and become a deity, unless they're not very bright.


quote:
Lathander may not have a lot of choice there, if they are acting in good faith in accordance with their belief about him. Alternatively, it may have served his interest to do so. Perhaps Lathander was encouraging these heresies. If Lathander was granting prayers under the Amaunator alias, then he receives the power of worship either way.

That does seem to be the truth as revealed in 4E, but I think the implications for his faithful (pitting them against each other, lying to his flock, etc.) really just don't jive well with his overall goals as a good deity. Isn't a part of goodness rejecting power if you have to win it by being evil, horrendous to your own faithful, and such?

quote:
There is a strong reason for him to do so. Lathander had been around for over a millennium. He knew the cycle was turning. At some point, the day portfolio would rise and Lathander's portfolio would begin to wane, leading ultimately to his death.

Those are all classic motives for power and survival, and they would fit well for me if Lathander had been neutral (or evil) instead of good. What of all the Lathanderites that, because of their dogma and faith, sacrificed themselves over the millenia rather than making a desperate grab for survival and power at the "end" and dumping their beliefs in the process. To me, it just doesn't sit well, mythically or logically.

quote:
Note that Jergal had previously passed the Dusk portfolio on to Myrkul, as a consequence of which Myrkul eventually "died" in Jergal's place. Surely Lathander drew a lesson from this. If Lathander did not take over the day portfolio, then someone else would have. Horus-Re perhaps. Or even Cyric (the dark-sun). Or someone new. By assuming the identity of Amaunator, Lathander prolongs his life for another third of the cycle. That gives him time to figure out how to circumvent his impending death or break the cycle somehow.

But at what costs, though, to his churches? It necessitates a massive shift in dogma and belief, and just seems wrong for Lathander. The "morning sun" portfolio that he's doing all this to retain, it just doesn't seem like retaining it at all costs is noble or good.

quote:
I strongly disagree that it's "pointless." The cycle is probably deeply embedded in the mechanism of how the sun works in Realmspace. If you recall, the first sun was devoured by Dendar the Night Serpent. The first holder of the Day portfolio was taken by Death or Dusk, and it was some time before a new sun was reignited in the sky. I submit that somewhere in those events the cycle was set in place and has persisted ever since. Day is taken by Death, then Dusk rules before Dawn rises once again, and so on. It may have even been put in place as something of a "term limit", a check and balance to make sure that the solar deity didn't become too powerful and end up dominating all the other gods of Toril. It may even be written into the Tablets of Ao.

Possibly, but I'm not sure how Dawn-Midday would make one extremely powerful. The sun is important, yes, particularly if it's linked to Time. But that's actually Mystra's and not Lathander's or Amaunator's. The sun is also important for fertility and growth, but those things are balanced by Shar (entropy) and Bhaal/Cyric (death) rather than any holder of the Dusk portfolio. At least, that's how it seems to me.

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by TheriseOr perhaps the being that is now Amaunator was never Lathander or Amaunator and has just taken Lathander's place and is using Amaunator's name. Perhaps the real Lathander is dead or has been captured/restrained in some way, and only has partial access to his worshippers.
Not a bad theory. I can't discount it. Although, I tend to believe that Lathander simply assumed the identity of Amauanator, either because it suited his political purposes, or he underwent a natural progression in maturity so that the Amaunator identity fit him better, or because a critical mass of his worshiper base came to believe he had changed and so he did.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind it so much if it's revealed that Lathander spent much of the end (of 3E) under some kind of attack. If Daelegoth (sp?) had been misled, and if both things were truly heresies, it would make a lot more sense to me if Lathander had died and one of his non-heretical high priests ascended and tried to make the best of things as a new "Amaunator". Perhaps the heresy just went too far and gained too much acceptance, and despite all of Lathander's best efforts to fight off his enemy (Cyric?) he didn't win.

quote:
As Ed always says, you can never know for certain the truth about the gods. And even those things that people think they know for certain may later turn out to be completely wrong. Somethings about gods are just mysteries that may never be solved.


I wish that were the case, really. It's something I adhere to in my own version of the Realms. But in canon lore, it just seems like we know too many things that are in fact set in stone as truth because of how they're written.
Gray Richardson Posted - 03 Jun 2012 : 18:00:11
quote:
Originally posted by Therise- if the original Amaunator simply "morphed" into Lathander, why was his dead body floating in the Astral for so long?
IMHO Lathander was a separate being from Amaunator, and I believe Amaunator was/is truly dead. Lathander was part of the Talfiric pantheon, and Amaunator was Netherese. As the survivors of Netheril merged with the Talfirs and other cultures to become the greater Faerūnian pantheon, Amaunator "died" from lack of worship as Lathander grew in power. It may have taken a few centuries for Amaunator to be completely forgotten, but Amaunator essentially died when Netheril fell. Lathander's worship replaced him as Lathander's faith spread from the Talfir region throughout the rest of Faerūn. Amaunator might be seen as "setting" in different places at different times in the same way that the sun has time zones, and the sun may have set in the East, while in the West the sun is still above the horizon. I believe that Faiths & Avatars states this process took just shy of a thousand years for Amaunator to be "forgotten" enough for his body to show up in Astral Plane.

I don't think the sun god should be thought of as a trinity. It's not one god with 3 faces. They aren't avatars of a single divine entity so much as a linked set of 3 portfolios, or offices, that can't be held simultaneously by the same god and that rotate in power in succession. The sun gods are not the same people. They don't really morph into one another. Think of it more like the presidency of the European Union, which operates in trios elected for 18 month periods with each one of the trio taking charge in turn as president for 6 months of the cycle. Although the Faerūnian cycles seem to last millennia (although the exact length seems to vary).

With the Faerūnian solar cycle, what ascends in power is not the god so much as the portfolio. At the end of his "term" the holder of the office dies or goes dormant or surrenders the office somehow. That portfolio then goes away for some amount of time. No god can hold it (at least actively) while the other two portfolios are "above the horizon." When one of the other portfolios "sets," the retired portfolio rises, and then someone takes possession of the office.

Not necessarily the same god who had it before, though. Just because the portfolio becomes active again, doesn't mean that the former possessor of it comes back to life, or that one god morphs into the new one. Lathander changing into Amaunator appears to be an exception to the norm, but more on that below.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise- when other dead Realms gods are brought back, they do not dramatically shift alignment or purpose. Why Amaunator-Lathander?
Lathander had been around for a millennium and a half. If people can change why not gods? Lathander was always impetuous, daring, starting things but never fininshing them. He definitely had a little ADD. This may have been a sign of his youth. As he aged, probably became more mature, focused, less rash, more interested in the long goal. Growing up and maturing seems like a natural progression for a god. Is it so surprising he would change.

Consider also that gods are subject to the belief of their worshipers. This belief can change the appearance, portfolios, and even the alignment of a god. I actually think that mass belief of mortals can change a god's perception of himself, alter his memories, even alter his past timelines, even possibly change his blood relations, their realities are so subject to mortal belief that a god might change from a brother or son of a god to that god's father. Some scoff at this notion, but I submit that gods do not have an object reality as mortals do, that their reality is always subject to editing by a critical mass of belief. Which is why heresies can be so dangerous to a god.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise- why would Lathander encourage either of the two heresies by continuing to grant spells to priests adamant about them?
Lathander may not have a lot of choice there, if they are acting in good faith in accordance with their belief about him. Alternatively, it may have served his interest to do so. Perhaps Lathander was encouraging these heresies. If Lathander was granting prayers under the Amaunator alias, then he receives the power of worship either way.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise- why would either Amaunator or Lathander lie (or engage in significant withholding and deception) when there's no reason for him/them to do so?
There is a strong reason for him to do so. Lathander had been around for over a millennium. He knew the cycle was turning. At some point, the day portfolio would rise and Lathander's portfolio would begin to wane, leading ultimately to his death.

Note that Jergal had previously passed the Dusk portfolio on to Myrkul, as a consequence of which Myrkul eventually "died" in Jergal's place. Surely Lathander drew a lesson from this. If Lathander did not take over the day portfolio, then someone else would have. Horus-Re perhaps. Or even Cyric (the dark-sun). Or someone new. By assuming the identity of Amaunator, Lathander prolongs his life for another third of the cycle. That gives him time to figure out how to circumvent his impending death or break the cycle somehow.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise- if it's all "true" and Amaunator really became Lathander and then later morphed back into Amaunator, what's the point? Other than seeming "cool" as a morning-noon-dusk tripartite concept, which has no stated functional purpose religiously, how does such morphing help the Realms, its people, or anything? It's pointless, and deities never do pointless things (or they shouldn't).
I strongly disagree that it's "pointless." The cycle is probably deeply embedded in the mechanism of how the sun works in Realmspace. If you recall, the first sun was devoured by Dendar the Night Serpent. The first holder of the Day portfolio was taken by Death or Dusk, and it was some time before a new sun was reignited in the sky. I submit that somewhere in those events the cycle was set in place and has persisted ever since. Day is taken by Death, then Dusk rules before Dawn rises once again, and so on. It may have even been put in place as something of a "term limit", a check and balance to make sure that the solar deity didn't become too powerful and end up dominating all the other gods of Toril. It may even be written into the Tablets of Ao.
quote:
Originally posted by TheriseOr perhaps the being that is now Amaunator was never Lathander or Amaunator and has just taken Lathander's place and is using Amaunator's name. Perhaps the real Lathander is dead or has been captured/restrained in some way, and only has partial access to his worshippers.
Not a bad theory. I can't discount it. Although, I tend to believe that Lathander simply assumed the identity of Amauanator, either because it suited his political purposes, or he underwent a natural progression in maturity so that the Amaunator identity fit him better, or because a critical mass of his worshiper base came to believe he had changed and so he did.

As Ed always says, you can never know for certain the truth about the gods. And even those things that people think they know for certain may later turn out to be completely wrong. Somethings about gods are just mysteries that may never be solved.
Therise Posted - 03 Jun 2012 : 17:11:14
quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers

quote:
Originally posted by Therise
And yet while it's supposedly true, it's still a big mess.
It's just messy an unnecessarily complicated and doesn't have any benefit for being "true".


I whole-heartedly disagree with this, I think the premise of the tri-partite sun deity is elegant and inspiring and full of roleplaying and gaming opportunities. The 'mess' is actually its strongest point, with different cults and faiths and dogma's all essentially worshipping the same deity but in different ways.

I believe that the Risen Sun heresy actually adds flavour to the Realms in a simple and subtle way that can be used or not as a DM desires.

Cheers

Damian


By all means, please explain how it accomplishes this.

It's one thing (for example) to have a meta-belief like "all of the culturally distinct war deities are really just different aspects of a single entity focused on war". That's an academic issue for sages to debate back and forth.

It's quite another for a deity within ONE culture to support divisive heretical beliefs that pit church against church, believer against believer, then validate the idea that his origins were actually from a different culture entirely and that his current dogma and history needs to be completely rewritten, not to mention his goals and alignment/objectives.

crazedventurers Posted - 03 Jun 2012 : 16:46:08
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
And yet while it's supposedly true, it's still a big mess.
It's just messy an unnecessarily complicated and doesn't have any benefit for being "true".


I whole-heartedly disagree with this, I think the premise of the tri-partite sun deity is elegant and inspiring and full of roleplaying and gaming opportunities. The 'mess' is actually its strongest point, with different cults and faiths and dogma's all essentially worshipping the same deity but in different ways.

I believe that the Risen Sun heresy actually adds flavour to the Realms in a simple and subtle way that can be used or not as a DM desires.

Cheers

Damian
Therise Posted - 03 Jun 2012 : 15:54:06
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Here's something even more radical for you all.

All 'deities' are are a single deific power source (some of you might call him Ao). When a worshipper "worship a deity", they are accessing a conduit to that divine power distribution matrix. Each 'deity' is a reflection that worshippers access the deific power source in different ways and for different reasons. Those ways and reasons shape and define the 'deity' in question, giving it its alignment, areas of interest and powers. That amount of power flowing through the 'deity' gives it a necessary amount of independent, individual sentience and existence for number of reasons - not the least of which is that the matrix (Ao) can't micro-manage every aspect of the distribution network.

Of course, the distribution network wants its matrix accessed. A lot. The more it is accessed, the more its power flows and it is therefore strengthened and invigorated (a bit like a physical workout). On that basis, the matrix largely concerns itself with only two things. First, that the 'deities' know that they are governed and controlled and not doing anything to usurp control of the matrix and second, that if some deities are not providing the proper flow of power, that alternatives are always available to ensure that divine power is called on and distributed. This is sometimes as simple as creating a deific alternative, or sometimes as subtle as overriding a deity and making it act as a conduit for divine power that if it it had its way, it would not provide.

Or something like that.

-- George Krashos




So... some weird mash up of monotheism, pantheism, and taoism?

No thanks. I can come up with an extremely detailed and complex theory about how the "gods" are all just illusions manifesting out of The Force (a la Star Wars). But even if it's conceptually elegant and intriguing, if it doesn't actually explain anything (other than adding complexity), what's the point?

Therise Posted - 03 Jun 2012 : 15:29:11
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Therise

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I really deeply dislike what was done to mash up Lathander and Amaunator. There are just too many things, from my perspective, that add up or combine to create really ugly implications about both deities. It all comes across as an overly complicated mess, and doesn't really improve upon what was known about either god. From a mythic perspective, it doesn't make much sense.

- if the original Amaunator simply "morphed" into Lathander, why was his dead body floating in the Astral for so long?
- when other dead Realms gods are brought back, they do not dramatically shift alignment or purpose. Why Amaunator-Lathander?
- why would Lathander encourage either of the two heresies by continuing to grant spells to priests adamant about them?
- why would either Amaunator or Lathander lie (or engage in significant withholding and deception) when there's no reason for him/them to do so?
- if it's all "true" and Amaunator really became Lathander and then later morphed back into Amaunator, what's the point? Other than seeming "cool" as a morning-noon-dusk tripartite concept, which has no stated functional purpose religiously, how does such morphing help the Realms, its people, or anything? It's pointless, and deities never do pointless things (or they shouldn't).

I think, honestly, what we have in 4E is a giant *fustercluck* mess brought about by surface-level thinking that seemed cool but really ruined both deities. Or perhaps the being that is now Amaunator was never Lathander or Amaunator and has just taken Lathander's place and is using Amaunator's name. Perhaps the real Lathander is dead or has been captured/restrained in some way, and only has partial access to his worshippers. If not, I really don't like the implications on several levels.




I have to make a correction, here... The idea of the the tripartite sun deity predates 4E. I'm obviously no fan of the 4E Realms, but I can't let them get blamed for something that was discussed long before 4E was ever announced.


I'm well aware that the concept predates 4E, but it's in 4E where the final kludge is done and the reveal is made. And yet while it's supposedly true, it's still a big mess. Tripartite deities IRL are one entity, but here it's some kind of tripartite portfolio that's shared... sort of. It's just messy an unnecessarily complicated and doesn't have any benefit for being "true".

Wooly Rupert Posted - 03 Jun 2012 : 14:50:47
quote:
Originally posted by Therise

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I really deeply dislike what was done to mash up Lathander and Amaunator. There are just too many things, from my perspective, that add up or combine to create really ugly implications about both deities. It all comes across as an overly complicated mess, and doesn't really improve upon what was known about either god. From a mythic perspective, it doesn't make much sense.

- if the original Amaunator simply "morphed" into Lathander, why was his dead body floating in the Astral for so long?
- when other dead Realms gods are brought back, they do not dramatically shift alignment or purpose. Why Amaunator-Lathander?
- why would Lathander encourage either of the two heresies by continuing to grant spells to priests adamant about them?
- why would either Amaunator or Lathander lie (or engage in significant withholding and deception) when there's no reason for him/them to do so?
- if it's all "true" and Amaunator really became Lathander and then later morphed back into Amaunator, what's the point? Other than seeming "cool" as a morning-noon-dusk tripartite concept, which has no stated functional purpose religiously, how does such morphing help the Realms, its people, or anything? It's pointless, and deities never do pointless things (or they shouldn't).

I think, honestly, what we have in 4E is a giant *fustercluck* mess brought about by surface-level thinking that seemed cool but really ruined both deities. Or perhaps the being that is now Amaunator was never Lathander or Amaunator and has just taken Lathander's place and is using Amaunator's name. Perhaps the real Lathander is dead or has been captured/restrained in some way, and only has partial access to his worshippers. If not, I really don't like the implications on several levels.




I have to make a correction, here... The idea of the the tripartite sun deity predates 4E. I'm obviously no fan of the 4E Realms, but I can't let them get blamed for something that was discussed long before 4E was ever announced.
George Krashos Posted - 03 Jun 2012 : 10:55:36
Here's something even more radical for you all.

All 'deities' are are a single deific power source (some of you might call him Ao). When a worshipper "worship a deity", they are accessing a conduit to that divine power distribution matrix. Each 'deity' is a reflection that worshippers access the deific power source in different ways and for different reasons. Those ways and reasons shape and define the 'deity' in question, giving it its alignment, areas of interest and powers. That amount of power flowing through the 'deity' gives it a necessary amount of independent, individual sentience and existence for number of reasons - not the least of which is that the matrix (Ao) can't micro-manage every aspect of the distribution network.

Of course, the distribution network wants its matrix accessed. A lot. The more it is accessed, the more its power flows and it is therefore strengthened and invigorated (a bit like a physical workout). On that basis, the matrix largely concerns itself with only two things. First, that the 'deities' know that they are governed and controlled and not doing anything to usurp control of the matrix and second, that if some deities are not providing the proper flow of power, that alternatives are always available to ensure that divine power is called on and distributed. This is sometimes as simple as creating a deific alternative, or sometimes as subtle as overriding a deity and making it act as a conduit for divine power that if it it had its way, it would not provide.

Or something like that.

-- George Krashos
Therise Posted - 03 Jun 2012 : 08:18:41
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I really deeply dislike what was done to mash up Lathander and Amaunator. There are just too many things, from my perspective, that add up or combine to create really ugly implications about both deities. It all comes across as an overly complicated mess, and doesn't really improve upon what was known about either god. From a mythic perspective, it doesn't make much sense.

- if the original Amaunator simply "morphed" into Lathander, why was his dead body floating in the Astral for so long?
- when other dead Realms gods are brought back, they do not dramatically shift alignment or purpose. Why Amaunator-Lathander?
- why would Lathander encourage either of the two heresies by continuing to grant spells to priests adamant about them?
- why would either Amaunator or Lathander lie (or engage in significant withholding and deception) when there's no reason for him/them to do so?
- if it's all "true" and Amaunator really became Lathander and then later morphed back into Amaunator, what's the point? Other than seeming "cool" as a morning-noon-dusk tripartite concept, which has no stated functional purpose religiously, how does such morphing help the Realms, its people, or anything? It's pointless, and deities never do pointless things (or they shouldn't).

I think, honestly, what we have in 4E is a giant *fustercluck* mess brought about by surface-level thinking that seemed cool but really ruined both deities. Or perhaps the being that is now Amaunator was never Lathander or Amaunator and has just taken Lathander's place and is using Amaunator's name. Perhaps the real Lathander is dead or has been captured/restrained in some way, and only has partial access to his worshippers. If not, I really don't like the implications on several levels.
Gray Richardson Posted - 03 Jun 2012 : 06:22:51
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

Gray,

This was fun to read.

--Eric
Thanks Eric! I consider that high praise indeed! It's so nice to see you back on the boards! It was actually your postings on the boards a long time ago about the tripartite nature of the sun portfolios that got me to thinking how the cycle tracked back through the past.

Your analogy about a 4-sided die turning on a lazy-susan inspired me to really think about how it all would work. In the analogy, if you look edge on as the die turns, you can only see at most 2 faces of the die, while one face is always hidden. Then, briefly, only one face is visible as the previous portfolio "sets" and the current portfolio is at its zenith, then the next one begins to rise and the current face begins to wane.

Amaunator was prominent during the Netheril era, but Jergal was ascending in power. Jergal passed the dusk portfolio over to Myrkul just in time for dusk to become ascendant again, with Myrkul presiding over the fall of Netheril and Jhaamdath shortly after. Amaunator "set" as Netheril fell. After a brief period with Myrkul at dusk's zenith, Lathander began to rise. Myrkul set, retreating into the Crown of Horns with the portfolio of dusk, leaving Lathander ascendant for a century before Amaunator rose once again.

So tracking that back to the Days of Thunder, you see a parallel in the Aearee pantheon. Krocaa, the aarakocra patron was introduced in Dragon #124 ("On Wings of Eagles") and Quorlinn and Syranita were introduced in Monster Mythoglogy. It struck me that Krocaa with his golden feathers, and Syranita with her multi-hued, scarlet feathers were surely incarnations of the sun and the dawn respectively. And Quorlinn seems a fitting holder of dusk for the Aearee pantheon. It just all fit together so well.
Branimir Posted - 01 Jun 2012 : 06:28:33
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

Gray,

This was fun to read.

--Eric



Omg, I didn't know the prophet Eric L. Boyd was on this site! I am honored by your presence.




I have another theory to explain Amaunators disappearance while Lathander was present, and Lathanders disappearance when Amaunator came back, and the whole off and on thing of different sun gods. I remember reading somewhere a while back that there could only be one god of a specific thing in a realm at any one time, (like one deity of the sun for example) I think it might have been on a description of Ao and his rules, I'm not sure. But its possible that Amaunator survived, just that his followers thought he was dead, and Lathander took over, so Lathander had more sway in the realm at the time so Ao wouldn't let Amaunator back. And with the whole risen sun heresy thing, maybe Lathander did see that it was in his best interest to take off during the Spellplague and used that as his chance to step down from their realm and let Amaunator surface again.
crazedventurers Posted - 01 Jun 2012 : 00:07:27
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson

I've long felt strongly that the trinity of solar portfolios (day, dusk, and dawn) and their cycles of ascendance go back at least to the Days of Thunder, as the patron gods of the Aearee flocks were sun gods


Just awesome , Gray you truly are the deity scribe here in the halls of Candlekeep.

Many many thanks for such a magnificent post.

Cheers

Damian
ericlboyd Posted - 31 May 2012 : 12:10:03
Gray,

This was fun to read.

--Eric

quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson

I've long felt strongly that the trinity of solar portfolios (day, dusk, and dawn) and their cycles of ascendance go back at least to the Days of Thunder, as the patron gods of the Aearee flocks were sun gods.

Krocaa was the god of the day, and in the primitive days of the Aearee tribes, he reigned in the sky and the Aearee soared. Krocaa is thus an aspect of Amaunator, or perhaps Amaunator is the human conception of Krocaa.

The mythology of Krocaa is well established that Krocaa abandoned his flocks and left for distant skies. He was supplanted by his son, Quorlinn, who held the portfolio of dusk (among others) and presided over the flocks during the hard times when the Aearee fell into slavery, first by the Sarrukh, then by the Batrachi.

It was a dark, dark time for the avian race, and Quorlinn represented the ideals that helped the Aearee survive their thralldom: sneaking, stealth, cleverness, trickery, acquisitiveness, all the skills the Aearee needed to appease, flatter, deceive, steal from, and on rare occasions escape from their cruel masters. Quorlinn's ascendance culminated in the terrible fimbulwinter that followed the Tearfall cataclysm that killed the Batrachi and blanketed the world in ash and ice.

But when the Sevenfold Winter ended, Syranita emerged from her egg, resplendent in the glorious colors of the sunrise. The Dawn Mother guided the Aearee into a new age, a renaissance that saw the Avian creator race take their place as the preeminent people of their era. In fact, "syran" means "dawn" in the Aearee tongue, and "itla" translates roughly as "brood mother," "matriarch," or "queen."

Quorlinn was still around during the golden years of the Aearee reign, but his worship dwindled and was all but extinguished as the Aearee-Quor turned to worship of the demon lord Pazrael.

Now can we really say that Krocaa was Amaunator and Syranita was Lathander? Well, possibly. They definitely held the portfolios of the Day and the Dawn respectively. Amaunator and Lathander may be the human conceptions of Krocaa and Syranita, or they might be mortals who ascended to godhood and laid claim to those portfolios when the time came round again in the cycle.

The Dusk portfolio has a history of changing hands like a hot potato, so it seems likely that Jergal (himself an ascended Spellweaver) laid claim to Dusk during some successive cycle after Quorlinn surrendered it. Jergal was not, however, the direct successor to Quorlinn; there were intervening stewards of Dusk.

I speculate that Krocaa, along with the day portfolio, probably had a brief resurgence at the end of the Aearee era, possibly as a direct result of the defeat of the forces of Pazrael and the Sharan rookeries as they tried to conquer their brethren in the lands to the north and west. Krocaa was seen as having returned, at least metaphorically, as the warrior-savior of the aarakocra. Krocaa was once again the primary spiritual figure of the Aearee, the soaring high-father of his pantheon... At least for the last few years until the dragons scoured the Aearee from the skies.

My assumption is that when the portfolio of Dusk again ascended it found its nest with Phraarkiloorm, the vulture-headed god of the Aearee dead and steward of the Fugue Plane during the Days of Thunder.

Note that Phraarkiloorm had earlier taken control of the Fugue Plane from the death god of the former aquatic creator race, originally an octopoid race that lived in the oceans and seas of Toril. The proto-batrachi were seduced by the toad-god Ramenos, who, suffused by the monotheistic zeal of their conversion to his faith, harrowed the Fated Depths, devouring the Great School pantheon. Ramenos used the power he thus acquired to fuel the metamorphosis of the aquatic creator race, as a tadpole transforms into a frog, so they could rise up and conquer the land as the amphibious Batrachi.

I am not certain of the identity of the Great School steward of the Fugue Plane, but a likely candidate is Panzuriel, the kraken god of Murder. Whether he also held the portfolios of Death or the Dead is yet unknown. Regardless of who held it, when the Batrachi turned to Ramenos, the Great School pantheon was destroyed or dispersed, and control of the Fugue passed to Phraarkiloorm.

As the dragons came to dominance in Faerūn, Null, the dragon god of death, ate Phraarkiloorm and took his portfolios including Dusk and the Dead, as well as the Fugue Plane for his lair. And so the cycles continued.

All this to say that the cycle of the sun -- each portfolio rising, reaching its zenith and setting again in turn -- is very ancient and goes back at least to the beginning of the Days of Thunder, if not further. The cycles track very well, one after the other, all the way up to the present day in Faerūn, with the darkest points of the Dusk cycle often punctuating the ends of great civilizations such as tearfall and the death of the Batrachi, the end of the Aearee, the end of the time of Dragons, the fall of Netheril and Jhaamdath, etc.

Gray Richardson Posted - 31 May 2012 : 05:52:57
I've long felt strongly that the trinity of solar portfolios (day, dusk, and dawn) and their cycles of ascendance go back at least to the Days of Thunder, as the patron gods of the Aearee flocks were sun gods.

Krocaa was the god of the day, and in the primitive days of the Aearee tribes, he reigned in the sky and the Aearee soared. Krocaa is thus an aspect of Amaunator, or perhaps Amaunator is the human conception of Krocaa.

The mythology of Krocaa is well established that Krocaa abandoned his flocks and left for distant skies. He was supplanted by his son, Quorlinn, who held the portfolio of dusk (among others) and presided over the flocks during the hard times when the Aearee fell into slavery, first by the Sarrukh, then by the Batrachi.

It was a dark, dark time for the avian race, and Quorlinn represented the ideals that helped the Aearee survive their thralldom: sneaking, stealth, cleverness, trickery, acquisitiveness, all the skills the Aearee needed to appease, flatter, deceive, steal from, and on rare occasions escape from their cruel masters. Quorlinn's ascendance culminated in the terrible fimbulwinter that followed the Tearfall cataclysm that killed the Batrachi and blanketed the world in ash and ice.

But when the Sevenfold Winter ended, Syranita emerged from her egg, resplendent in the glorious colors of the sunrise. The Dawn Mother guided the Aearee into a new age, a renaissance that saw the Avian creator race take their place as the preeminent people of their era. In fact, "syran" means "dawn" in the Aearee tongue, and "itla" translates roughly as "brood mother," "matriarch," or "queen."

Quorlinn was still around during the golden years of the Aearee reign, but his worship dwindled and was all but extinguished as the Aearee-Quor turned to worship of the demon lord Pazrael.

Now can we really say that Krocaa was Amaunator and Syranita was Lathander? Well, possibly. They definitely held the portfolios of the Day and the Dawn respectively. Amaunator and Lathander may be the human conceptions of Krocaa and Syranita, or they might be mortals who ascended to godhood and laid claim to those portfolios when the time came round again in the cycle.

The Dusk portfolio has a history of changing hands like a hot potato, so it seems likely that Jergal (himself an ascended Spellweaver) laid claim to Dusk during some successive cycle after Quorlinn surrendered it. Jergal was not, however, the direct successor to Quorlinn; there were intervening stewards of Dusk.

I speculate that Krocaa, along with the day portfolio, probably had a brief resurgence at the end of the Aearee era, possibly as a direct result of the defeat of the forces of Pazrael and the Sharan rookeries as they tried to conquer their brethren in the lands to the north and west. Krocaa was seen as having returned, at least metaphorically, as the warrior-savior of the aarakocra. Krocaa was once again the primary spiritual figure of the Aearee, the soaring high-father of his pantheon... At least for the last few years until the dragons scoured the Aearee from the skies.

My assumption is that when the portfolio of Dusk again ascended it found its nest with Phraarkiloorm, the vulture-headed god of the Aearee dead and steward of the Fugue Plane during the Days of Thunder.

Note that Phraarkiloorm had earlier taken control of the Fugue Plane from the death god of the former aquatic creator race, originally an octopoid race that lived in the oceans and seas of Toril. The proto-batrachi were seduced by the toad-god Ramenos, who, suffused by the monotheistic zeal of their conversion to his faith, harrowed the Fated Depths, devouring the Great School pantheon. Ramenos used the power he thus acquired to fuel the metamorphosis of the aquatic creator race, as a tadpole transforms into a frog, so they could rise up and conquer the land as the amphibious Batrachi.

I am not certain of the identity of the Great School steward of the Fugue Plane, but a likely candidate is Panzuriel, the kraken god of Murder. Whether he also held the portfolios of Death or the Dead is yet unknown. Regardless of who held it, when the Batrachi turned to Ramenos, the Great School pantheon was destroyed or dispersed, and control of the Fugue passed to Phraarkiloorm.

As the dragons came to dominance in Faerūn, Null, the dragon god of death, ate Phraarkiloorm and took his portfolios including Dusk and the Dead, as well as the Fugue Plane for his lair. And so the cycles continued.

All this to say that the cycle of the sun -- each portfolio rising, reaching its zenith and setting again in turn -- is very ancient and goes back at least to the beginning of the Days of Thunder, if not further. The cycles track very well, one after the other, all the way up to the present day in Faerūn, with the darkest points of the Dusk cycle often punctuating the ends of great civilizations such as tearfall and the death of the Batrachi, the end of the Aearee, the end of the time of Dragons, the fall of Netheril and Jhaamdath, etc.
Branimir Posted - 31 May 2012 : 00:47:54
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus



I guess that's a way of looking at it. Its not the way that makes most sense to me though. I'm not saying that its wrong just that I'd need documentation stating specifically that that is how it should be looked at before I believed it to be the one right way.

quote:
Originally posted by SFDragon



Earlier in the thread it was said that it refers to the position of the sun in all cases, rather than the transition of dark to light or light to dark in the world. Though it makes an interesting point, as Jergal only has the domains of Death, Fate, Law, Repose, Runes, and Suffering, not Sun. The only gods that have Sun are Amaunator, Lathander, and Horus-Re. And honestly when I think of sun gods, I think of those three, not Jergal, but it depends on the individuals beliefs I suppose.
sfdragon Posted - 31 May 2012 : 00:29:37
ummm I do have an issue with that reasoning.

would not dusk have something more to do with the night than the sun???
( I know it likely means the setting sun, but its also nightfall)
Lord Karsus Posted - 31 May 2012 : 00:02:48
-Domains don't exist outside of 3e and Pathfinder. They're relevant only to 3e D&D rules, in that they bestow abilities to Clerics (and some other PrCs). Second edition had spheres, and 4th edition uses the same terminology. They change by edition, the terminology, and are limited by what is given in D&D rulebooks, articles, and magazines. Portfolios are the concepts 'assigned' to deities by Ao, that they are representative of. They are as endless as existence is- if something exists, a portfolio exists for it.

-Lathander is a sun deity by proxy of 'Dawn' being in his portfolio, one of the three sun-related portfolios that we know exist, along with 'Dusk' (held once by Jergal) and 'Sun*' (held once by Amaunataur).

*Which sounds much better thematically as 'High Noon'.
Branimir Posted - 30 May 2012 : 23:48:39
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-It'd be 'Portfolios', not 'Domains'. Domains are a 3e/Pathfinder mechanical thing, more or less, and primarily have to do with the mortal worshipers of the deity, giving the Cleric powers that are in line with the things the deity represents. A deity doesn't control his/her/its domains in so much as they are fictitious things, having only to do with D&D mechanics. Portfolios designate what the deity is actually "in charge of".



I don't think that's accurate, but I don't claim to be an expert. Portfolio are the things the deities represents, like Dionysus was the greek god of wine, music, and dance. I think Domain is more of a DnD thing, its application to our historical polytheistic religions could be Mount Olympus maybe, or, idk. In DnD Domain refers to magic, for example the Sun domain grants spellcasters sun spell powers. And once per day, the user can perform a "greater turning" against undead in place of a normal turn/rebuke, which destroys undead that it would normally have turned/rebuked. What I listed as Lathander's Domains and Portfolio attributes above are accurate. You can find them in some of the books, such as Forgotten Realms: Faiths and Avatars pg 90 and others, as well as on the forgotten realms wikia. So since Lathander is considered a sun deity, and the sun is not one of the aspects in his portfolio only the dawn is, and having the Sun Domain allows him to bestow sun spell powers, that's why I would say Domain.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Lathander
Lord Karsus Posted - 30 May 2012 : 23:32:56
-It'd be 'Portfolios', not 'Domains'. Domains are a 3e/Pathfinder mechanical thing, more or less, and primarily have to do with the mortal worshipers of the deity, giving the Cleric powers that are in line with the things the deity represents. A deity doesn't control his/her/its domains in so much as they are fictitious things, having only to do with D&D mechanics. Portfolios designate what the deity is actually "in charge of".
sfdragon Posted - 30 May 2012 : 21:32:33
fr some reason I always thought it was the portfolios.....
Branimir Posted - 30 May 2012 : 17:35:32
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon


by the way, what consitutes being a sun deity anyway???? domain or portfolio??



Domain. Lathander for example has the Sun as on of his domains along with Good, Hope, Nobility, Protection, Renewal, and Strength. His portfolio includes Athletics, Birth, Creativity, Dawn, Renewal, Self-perfection, Spring, Vitality, and Youth.
sfdragon Posted - 30 May 2012 : 05:30:20
Oh by all the watching gods.


Ed Greenwood as states this many times in his novels, many times hinting at that there might not be as many deities as the general populace believes.

that said, who is to say that the populace actually could tell you what each deity looks like since most of the time its just an artistic rendition when its portrayed in the realms.

that is not to say that Amuanator and lathander didnt look like alike and everybody just forgot because the hallowed artwork was deteriated away and crumbled into dust.

As for him turning to Jergal... not sure I'd buy into that one no matter whats ever been said about LAthander/Amuanator/ whoever had dusk being a tri part deity like Angaradh is....../ was/whatever.

by the way, what consitutes being a sun deity anyway???? domain or portfolio??

Branimir Posted - 30 May 2012 : 05:20:25
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I very seriously dislike the idea of Lathander fading into Amaunator fading into Myrkul fading back into Lathander. It just doesn't work for me.



I agree, my church thinks of Lathander as an individual deity.
My perspective on why there is multiple deities for aspects of the sun and not the moon is simply that those deities exist. I mean deities are born (or come into existence in another way) and die, and have unique personalities like anyone, and I suppose their personality and the essence of who they are in part defines what they are believed to or choose to represent. In other words, its coincidence. Those specific entities exist in the realm, and they just happen to represent what they represent. I mean if you take any group of people, like if you and everyone you knew suddenly ascended into godhood, and the god that brought you there says the one rule is no two people can represent the exact same thing, everyone would choose what represents them and there could be more people who are more like the sun (thus choose to represent phases of the sun) than people who are like the moon, or visa versa.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 30 May 2012 : 04:49:19
quote:
Originally posted by Branimir

The Church of Lathander located in Southern California agrees with Menelvagor. Lathander still lives, and needs our faith to restore his power so he may assist his followers. We do not support the risen sun heresy. Convert today: http://www.facebook.com/TheMorninglord

I also agree with Wooly about the moon, Selune should have 5 children to represent every aspect, as that would create more interesting events in the future of Fearūn.



Oh, I don't see a need for multiple moon deities. I was arguing against having multiple sun deities, saying that if one celestial body needs multiple deities, the other prominent celestial body should, as well. It's only logical.

I very seriously dislike the idea of Lathander fading into Amaunator fading into Myrkul fading back into Lathander. It just doesn't work for me.
Branimir Posted - 30 May 2012 : 03:01:08
The Church of Lathander located in Southern California agrees with Menelvagor. Lathander still lives, and needs our faith to restore his power so he may assist his followers. We do not support the risen sun heresy. Convert today: http://www.facebook.com/TheMorninglord

I also agree with Wooly about the moon, Selune should have 5 children to represent every aspect, as that would create more interesting events in the future of Fearūn.
Stout Heart Posted - 05 May 2009 : 02:46:09
I have seen much of the rest of Faerun it is cold and Dark, Lathander was the light. The heretics of the risen sun want the morning lord to change the world for them rather then changing it in his name. Amaunautor is no where near the same type of god. I understand that the statement in it self proves that I care way to much about forgotten realms lol, but I feel a emptiness at the thought of no Lathander.

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