| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Derulbaskul |
Posted - 14 Jul 2004 : 03:54:22
Howdy,
I'm currently preparing a campaign set in the Unapproachable East and, in due course, I want the party to encounter Durthans, the evil counterparts to the Hathrans (well, at least they're not good).
As Durthans need to have a few levels of divine spellcasting ability, what powers would they serve? Auril seems appropriate but perhaps Shar also makes sense? Thoughts? Canon answers?
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| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 25 Sep 2012 : 19:27:21
The elemental deities make multiple aspects. We know that Akadi is also the God Teyalas (sp?) and Grumbar is the goddess Etugan. I don't think gender matters that much when you represent air, fire, earth or water. Does water have genitalia?
I think you're reading too much into alignment, I would ignore the alignment restrictions altogether. It is not something stamped on someone's forehead. In 4th edition there is no such thing as CG anyways = P
The Durthans love Rashemen and hags, etc. are enemies not potential allies imo |
| PaulBestwick |
Posted - 25 Sep 2012 : 14:16:16
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
<snip>
BTW, the durthan class presented in 3.0 never got updated to 3.5 like the Hathran did. I always found that to be an injustice, as the Durthans were something I had always envisioned even before they were written up (long ago, I had written up an article showing that there were multiple "sects" of witches within Rashemen... some of which were evil, but all protected Rashemen).
<snip>
Try Unapproachable East page 22 :) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 25 Sep 2012 : 08:46:10
As many of them are accomplished necromancers, like Anilya from The Shield of Weeping Ghosts, they might have used to worship Velsharoon. Auril and Bane would be on the list, too. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 25 Sep 2012 : 07:45:40
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Isn't the purpose of the Durthans that they want to be more aggressive and are expressionistic? It seems from what was written about them (although I did not read the novel that involved them) that they are a group that sort of works together just as the Hathrans work together. I've always imagined them being as controlled as the Hathrans, but with a different viewpoint. I can't imagine there being Durthans worshiping Lurue, Deneir, etc. I think it was implicated many of them are Hathrans that had become disillusioned and joined this secret group within a secret group (and still appear to most of the world as Hathrans)
The disillusionment could happen for many reasons and I agree that they should not necessarily be evil.
In my own imagination they had their own "three":
-Auril (From all their cold based powers)
-Talona --> opposite of Chauntea
-Beshaba or Loviatar --> Shar would make sense but she has been getting too much attention lately...
Although these are evil deities, you don't have to be evil to respect or worship an evil deity. I would restrict it to goddesses because they are female oriented.
I'd be against setting up a triad of deities, the Hathran prestige class specifically requires you to worship one of 3 deities, and the guiding thing for me just comes down to that the other class does not. Also, I like the idea that religious freedom is a guiding point for why they aren't Hathrans.
Hmmm, thinking back through the list of deities I gave, Lurue is a bad example... as I don't see the Durthans and Lurue's mindsets being that similar. Also, if the class is going to be sexist, it would make sense that the people of said class are also going to be inclined towards a female deity. I definitely would leave in the elemental deities however. Therefore, there could be some Durthans who quite simply worship a male deity.... they'd just likely be fewer.
Also, given that the telthor's that they learn to work with are actually fey, there's a good chance that they might worship "fey" deities (for instance, Shar may be known as "the Queen of Air and Darkness"). Along these lines, Cegilune, the goddess of hags, is rumored in monster mythology to be related to Queen Titania. Given the number of hags in Rashemen, I'd think her a common enough deity. Eshebala (a lyncanthropic deity of foxwomen and wolfweres that resides in the abyss), would also seem to fit into the country if one wanted to include her.... in fact, foxwomen and wolfweres would make perfect additions in Rashemen and as Durthans. Similarly, Kiaransalee and Lolth wouldn't be outside the realm of possiblity (especially if any half-elves are in Rashemen, or half-drow from the nearby dark elf city of Drezz'Lynur which is part of Undrek'Thoz).
The one guiding point that I see as being poorly conceived in all this is that people want to make the Durthans and Hathrans mortal enemies. The way I see it is this: The Hathrans are control freaks and want only their sect in Rashemen. The Durthans have banded together loosely for mutual protection against the Hathrans. Their main protection though is their secrecy, and they may wear their masks as protection within their own groups when they gather. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if some of these Hathrans are actually still worshipping Leira just like the Nimbraii do (yes, she's "supposedly" dead). Some Durthans are evil, but others aren't. However, when their countryside is invaded, both will come to the defense of Rashemen (its just the Durthans will be leading their own separate assault and summoning the darker powers from the land).
Now, back to an earlier point... so you can't be CG and be either a Hathran or a Durthan? Something tells me there's a third set of witches in Rashemen that have not been developed yet. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 25 Sep 2012 : 03:59:37
Isn't the purpose of the Durthans that they want to be more aggressive and are expressionistic? It seems from what was written about them (although I did not read the novel that involved them) that they are a group that sort of works together just as the Hathrans work together. I've always imagined them being as controlled as the Hathrans, but with a different viewpoint. I can't imagine there being Durthans worshiping Lurue, Deneir, etc. I think it was implicated many of them are Hathrans that had become disillusioned and joined this secret group within a secret group (and still appear to most of the world as Hathrans)
The disillusionment could happen for many reasons and I agree that they should not necessarily be evil.
In my own imagination they had their own "three":
-Auril (From all their cold based powers)
-Talona --> opposite of Chauntea
-Beshaba or Loviatar --> Shar would make sense but she has been getting too much attention lately...
Although these are evil deities, you don't have to be evil to respect or worship an evil deity. I would restrict it to goddesses because they are female oriented. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 24 Sep 2012 : 21:18:10
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
The Red Knight being new seems sort of relative. She's older than cyric and kelemvor to be sure. Don't hagspawn have to be male since female hagspawn are....hags? I like yourideas. Even if many of the durthan were killed it cocouldn't be all when they are hidden and secretive. Perhaps it was the most evil of their kind.
Personally, I think the Durthans weren't one cohesive group. They were quite simply sects who studied magic along a similiar vein. Thus, those Durthans that followed Shar wouldn't be hanging out with the Durthans who follow say Deneir. Meanwhile, neither of those would be hanging out with the Durthans that follow Lurue. Then none of those would be hanging out with the Durthans that follow Malar. The Telthors of all these different Durthans probably would be totally different too. The Lurue worshippers telthor might be a deer, the Sharrans a panther, the Deneiran's an owl, and the Malarites a boar. All however would want to protect Rashemen, and should the need arise, would work together towards that defense (though I do see that some sects of Durthans may seek to gain advantage while defending the country, by sending others on the more dangerous missions). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 24 Sep 2012 : 21:02:03
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
The Red Knight being new seems sort of relative. She's older than cyric and kelemvor to be sure. Don't hagspawn have to be male since female hagspawn are....hags? I like yourideas. Even if many of the durthan were killed it cocouldn't be all when they are hidden and secretive. Perhaps it was the most evil of their kind.
LOL, good point on the hagspawn. DOH |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 24 Sep 2012 : 20:51:25
The Red Knight being new seems sort of relative. She's older than cyric and kelemvor to be sure. Don't hagspawn have to be male since female hagspawn are....hags? I like yourideas. Even if many of the durthan were killed it cocouldn't be all when they are hidden and secretive. Perhaps it was the most evil of their kind. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 24 Sep 2012 : 14:45:28
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
A novel came out involving Durthans (The Masked Witches). Do Durthans still exist? What do we find out about them (that are not spoilers) from this novel?
I don't want them to be destroyed because I want to incorporate them into a story I'm writing (where they plot against and are involved in an invasion of Thay)
As far as I recall, you don't really learn anything knew, except that you are now given some usable names of Durthans from the past. The Durthans are being resurrected by the eminence of Araunt (as are Narfellians and Raumatharans).
BTW, the durthan class presented in 3.0 never got updated to 3.5 like the Hathran did. I always found that to be an injustice, as the Durthans were something I had always envisioned even before they were written up (long ago, I had written up an article showing that there were multiple "sects" of witches within Rashemen... some of which were evil, but all protected Rashemen). I actually re-did the prestige class to 3.5 standards, but in doing so I got rid of the "you can switch from hathran to durthan and swap levels" piece, but it is possible to be in both if you keep to a LN alignment. I also kept the original "you have to be both divine and arcane" piece and provided a spell progression similiar to ultimate magi making it relatively easy to enter the durthan class if you meet the stringent feat requirements.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16380
As to deities of the Durthans, I agree with the earlier folk that they can follow pretty much any evil deity. However, they could also follow the standard deities of the Wychlaran. Bear in mind, the Durthans are "any-nongood" alignment. What this means is that the Hathrans are specifically, LN, LG, and NG... but the Durthans are LN, TN, CN, as well as the traditional evil alignments. Therefore, there could be Hathrans who follow Azuth rather than Mystra, or perhaps Savras, Oghma, or Deneir. They could follow the elemental deities (Akadi, Grumbar, Kossuth, or Istishia). They could follow guardian, tactics, and dark justice deities like the Red Knight, Helm, and Hoar (though the red knight would be rarer being new). They could follow Lurue as well, which could fit since many telthor are the spirits of beasts. Given their ties to cold as well, some could even follow Ulutiu (as Auril doesn't hold all those cards).
That's one thing I kind of have a problem with. Yes, the Durthan were in opposition to the Hathrans. Perhaps that's because the Hathran were so stringently controlling the religion in the country, no? Perhaps its because you weren't allowed to express personal freedom and be a Hathran (i.e. you can't be chaotic Hathran... and neither Hathran nor Durthan can be CG... think on that). Perhaps they didn't like what is done to male spellcasters in their society and would like to see the vremyonni free (you will note that Vremyonni have no restrictions against making magical items). Perhaps they wanted to learn to non-traditional craft magic items themselves (like the craft contingent spell feat, or attune gem feat, etc...). The Durthan prestige class could simply be those witches of Rashemen who don't want to work in circles to enhance their superiors. They want to learn to befriend the spirits (telthor) of their land and work with them instead.
One other thing to consider. The durthan prestige class is limited to females from Rashemen. It doesn't limit them to humans. There's lots of spiritfolk, hags, hagspawn, etc... in Rashemen who might also see the Durthan prestige class as more to their personal view of life.
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| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 24 Sep 2012 : 09:23:43
A novel came out involving Durthans (The Masked Witches). Do Durthans still exist? What do we find out about them (that are not spoilers) from this novel?
I don't want them to be destroyed because I want to incorporate them into a story I'm writing (where they plot against and are involved in an invasion of Thay) |
| IronAngel |
Posted - 26 Jan 2009 : 15:58:00
If you want to go with nature/spirit worship that's not tied to alignment, the Elemental Lords are worth considering. They don't impose any additional allegiance or dogma upon the Durthan who already have a very specific purpose and ideal. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 24 Jan 2009 : 21:30:20
I hope badly!
On amazon.com 4th edition forgotten realms has like 40% off and got 2.5 stars out of five. Snap. |
| Ifthir |
Posted - 21 Jan 2009 : 15:56:53
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Well, and this topic is still relevant if you're one of those choosing to ignore 4th Edition.
OOC: I am genuinely curious to see how the 4E sales numbers are stacking up with the 3E stuff.
IC: I've been praying to Tyr for a fortnight to be sure that Gargauth and Waukeen's minions over at Wizards of the Coast see Justice for the betrayal they did in the spirit of profit. |
| Ifthir |
Posted - 21 Jan 2009 : 15:50:47
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Don't the Durthans get wiped out by the Hathrans shortly after the spellplague?
Too bad, that was the book I'd been waiting for, for a while. I've always wanted to see a Trilogy based on the full history of the Hathrans/Durthans. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 21 Jan 2009 : 15:42:23
-Personally, I wouldn't give any of them in Rashemen "organized" religions and deities. Nature worship and spirit worship, and there you go. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 21 Jan 2009 : 08:45:59
Well, and this topic is still relevant if you're one of those choosing to ignore 4th Edition.
Durthran powers are all like "cold resistance 5" "Utter Cold" and such. Which leads me to believe they must be being granted these powers from Auril... |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 12 Sep 2008 : 00:20:34
I don't know why a few wouldn't be skulking around somewhere |
| kororoti |
Posted - 11 Sep 2008 : 21:56:51
The ones they know of... sure....
Actually I don't know. I'm just trying to make some evil characters in Rashemen, and I found the prestige class in the Unapproachable East book.
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* 4 * 1 * 3 * 2 * 5 (meaningless arcane scribblings) |
| Ranak |
Posted - 11 Sep 2008 : 21:48:19
That is correct, the Hathrans win and there are no Durthans in 4th Edition, according to the FRCS.
Then again, isn't this exactly what the Durthans would want you to believe?
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Don;t the Durthans get wiped out by the Hathrans shortly after the spellplague?
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| The Red Walker |
Posted - 11 Sep 2008 : 21:43:53
Don;t the Durthans get wiped out by the Hathrans shortly after the spellplague? |
| kororoti |
Posted - 11 Sep 2008 : 20:32:55
You know, it just occurred to me that maybe I should see who Chauntea, Mielikki and Mystra's enemies are, and I just happen to have the Faiths and Pantheons book at hand.
Mielikki's enemies are listed as: Malar, Talos, and Talona. (And Silvanus who is her father has Talos and Talona as his listed enemies)
Mystra's enemies are listed as Bane, Cyric, and especially Shar.
Chauntea's enemies are listed as Auril, Bane, Malar, Talos, Umberlee and especially Talona
I'm just thinking here: If the Hathran mostly worship Chauntea, Mielikki, and Mystra, and .... the Durthan are the enemies of the Hathran, then maybe the Durthan would worship the enemies of the gods the Hathran worship?
So, our list then would be: (Ones that occur twice) Bane, Malar, Talos, and Talona. (Ones that occur once) Auril, Cyric, Umberlee, and Shar.
Of course Shar is distinguished as being the most important enemy of Mystra, so maybe she should be on the primary list, and Bane is everyone's enemy, so maybe he wouldn't have any special appeal to Durthans, so he could go on the secondary list. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 10 Sep 2008 : 09:09:09
malar, bane and maybe talos/gruumsh would be my guess |
| kororoti |
Posted - 10 Sep 2008 : 00:52:45
Alright, I guess this topic is 4 years old now, the original poster asked a very pertinent question.
If the Durthan PRC actually *requires* 2nd level divine casting, it would be nice to know what religion, exactly, they favor.
The three main religions of Rashemen: Chauntea (Bhalla), Mystra (The Hidden One), and Mielikki (Khelliara), don't seem very applicable. (Though Mystra does allow Lawful Evil clergy, because her office requires her to)
Vexxan points out a good direction to take the inquiry, however:
" It is specifically stated in UE that the durthan nurture spirits of destruction and vengeance. Using that information as a guideline, and the predominance of evil and law among durthan, three gods seem more obvious."
However: Hoar is the god of vengeance, and Talos is the god of destruction, so you might want to add those to your list. |
| Derulbaskul |
Posted - 15 Jul 2004 : 15:27:14
Thanks for your feedback, Vexxan. "Destruction and vengeance" is very Shar-like, from a certain perspective; I think this also holds true for Auril and possibly even Talona.
I like your inclusion of Gargauth. It would be interesting if the Gargauth-worshippers were allied with a similarly focussed faction within the Red Wizards of Thay.
Hmmm, now I'm thinking about combining Gargauth-worshipping Red Wizards with a leaderless Iron Throne and a resurgent Knights of the Shield into Faerun's first multinational corporation.... |
| Vexxan |
Posted - 14 Jul 2004 : 04:48:05
Auril would make a decent choice for a durthan who worships for personal reasons. Since religion is often a personal pusuit, I could see any 'evil' god as appropriate, including the likes of Cyric, Talos, Talona or Beshaba. Even durthan of a more gentle breed, if there is such a thing, might follow Hoar's edicts.
I see the durthan as a much more controlled and ordered society, one that would embrace less chaotic deities, but this is just my instinct. Since secrecy is so high among the durthan, it makes sense that law is the more valued virtue. This is where personal religion is pushed aside by group dogma. While younger, less experienced durthan might still maintain ties with chaotic gods, the elders will have devoted more of themselves to the society and embraced law.
It is specifically stated in UE that the durthan nurture spirits of destruction and vengeance. Using that information as a guideline, and the predominance of evil and law among durthan, three gods seem more obvious.
Bane (his domains alone speak volumes) would be a likely deity for those durthan who seek a balance to their wicked ways.
Gargauth would be appropraite for the more politically minded durthan who actively subvert mainstream Rashemi society, including those who corrupt young ethrans or hathrans.
Loviatar makes sense for those who are truly cruel and much more overt in their tactics.
Of course all of this is totally non-canon and my personal view on the situation. |
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