| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| IngoDjan |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 17:58:12
The text of the FRCG 4ed says this:
"Ao exists beyond the concept of alignment or worship.
He serves no one, and no one serves him. Instead
he watches all, sees all, and judges all."
But, in Avatar´s Trilogy, more precisely Waterdeep, in the end of the epilogue has a passage that says other thing:
"A luminous presence greeted him, enveloping his energies within its own. It was both a warm and a cold entity, for-giving and harsh. "And how does your cosmos fare, Ao?" The voice was at once both gentle and admonishing.
"They have restored the Balance, Master. The Realms are once again secure.""
After all, the people that wrote FRCG 4ed know the previsous scenario? Based in the TERRIBLE book I buy  , I really think not! |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Arioch |
Posted - 18 Sep 2008 : 19:10:10
quote:
It's all academic though, since I don't run epic campaigns where the PCs must take on a hugely powerful outsider to prevent that outsider from drawing FR into it's plane. ;)
Of course I agree with you...
I never used AO in a campaign, but I like the idea that he is there. Knowing about it's role just help me calibrating the gods' plans that could affect adventures... |
| Ayunken-vanzan |
Posted - 18 Sep 2008 : 17:03:06
The new reality is caused in part by the spellplague and in part by deities taking advantage of the situation (Shar, for example ...). |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 18 Sep 2008 : 16:57:50
Oh, and everything that's happened in FR could be exactly what AO wanted to happen. The Spellplague could be the result of the Gods being cast down and then brought back up, the amount of power that went into that move could easily have produced a Spellplague. It could also be a result of AO and company (assuming AO is a steward of the balance and is not alone in that position) . .. wait, is the new cosmology a "it's always been there" sort of deal? Or is it a "The Spellplague ripped through reality to create the new cosmology"? If it's the latter then the Spellplague could be the "overdeities" doing, the result of changing the face of the cosmos.
I mean, there's plenty of possibilities when we're talking about overdeities. ;) |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 18 Sep 2008 : 16:51:06
Eh, I like the idea of AO (and other beings) because their existence helped solidify my concept of deities, the planes and the relationships involved. I look at AO as a engineer tasked with making sure The Forgotten Realms (the entire reality that FR exists within) keeps working. In my little theory everything works as a sort of closed system that keeps recycling the energies (souls basically) within the system to keep it going. I haven't worked out all the details but it gives a solid purpose to the planes and something to take up the time of all these immortal beings.
It's all academic though, since I don't run epic campaigns where the PCs must take on a hugely powerful outsider to prevent that outsider from drawing FR into it's plane. ;) |
| Arioch |
Posted - 18 Sep 2008 : 11:54:08
I like to find analogies with D&D Base (Mystara) because I suspect that (good) ideas never dies, could be changed but never dies...
Mystara: (immortal ranks)
Initiate, Temporal, Celestial, Empyreal, Eternal, and Hierarch
3.5 cosmology:
Demigod, Lesser, Intermediate, Greater
Forgotten:
Demigod, Lesser, Intermediate, Greater + AO
So... my explanation is that AO is a sort of Eternal (Enough distant from a man point of view to be incomprehensible) but with one or more Hierarchs above him!
This could also explain Bane actions just befor ToT. If there is a hierarchy... there will always be someone who try to climb it, while other are just happy to stay where they are!
In this way I also had the possibility to use AO in some campaign plot.
|
| Vangelor |
Posted - 17 Sep 2008 : 11:06:58
I see AO as sort of the be-all of the divine energy vested in Abeir-Toril, a sort of Teilhardian unanimization of all the individual gods that ever were, are, and will be. It is ultimately knowable only to the gods, and then only so far as they transcend their personal agendas to exist as the highest manifestation of world-related consciousness. Which is all very metaphysical, but such is the nature of gods.
As far as what gods can and cannot do, and what AO can allow or forbid, I think we can try to guess from the Dawn Cataclysm and the Time of Troubles, but not really know - after the manner of the allegory of Plato's Cave, or the blind men and the elephant.
Yes - I apply real philosophy and theology to my roleplaying games. Everyone needs a hobby.  |
| The Sage |
Posted - 16 Sep 2008 : 01:35:57
quote:
Originally posted by jibriil
Are there any characters that follow multiple gods? - say Mystra and Vhaerun? Is it possible?? Could someone who once followed Ao gain favour with any group of gods of similar disposition, A priestess of Eilistraee and servant of Mystra? Or even opposing such as Mielikki and Lolth? A Chaotic Neutral Extremist....
Power of Faerûn clarifies that 'Most folk in Faerûn embrace (or drift into) primary worship of one deity above -- even if only slightly above -- all others.' Except for priests, the distinction between your most-worshipped god and your second-most-worshipped god is only quantitative, not qualitative, and not everyone sees their most-worshipped god as their 'patron'.
This is something Ed built into the Realms from the very beginning. As he said back in '04:-
"So that’s the way I did it. DRAGON issue 54 contains my work-in-progress
unfolding of a pantheon of gods, and a glance at that article will show you three things
at work: like all D&D gamers at the time, I was trying to stay official, matching deities
with what Gary Gygax had revealed of his (the Greyhawk setting); I wanted lots of gods
(one aspect of the Realms that’s thus far been neglected is the extent to which Jonthun
the baker next door worships Chauntea for a good harvest, Tymora for good luck in the
baking, Talos for good weather so the grain crops won’t be ruined, and so on, all in the
same day);"
quote:
There must be some example of dual worship. Is there any example of this in RW religion that could serve as example as to how this could be incorporated?
There are indeed a handful, mostly in the old material, of lay worshippers/divine casters that have more then one deity listed. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 15 Sep 2008 : 23:45:11
quote:
Originally posted by jibriil
Are there any characters that follow multiple gods? - say Mystra and Vhaerun? Is it possible??
It's not only possible, but common. The Realms is a polytheistic setting. |
| Pandora |
Posted - 15 Sep 2008 : 21:23:32
quote:
Originally posted by jibriil
Are there any characters that follow multiple gods? - say Mystra and Vhaerun? Is it possible?? Could someone who once followed Ao gain favour with any group of gods of similar disposition, A priestess of Eilistraee and servant of Mystra? Or even opposing such as Mielikki and Lolth? A Chaotic Neutral Extremist....
There must be some example of dual worship. Is there any example of this in RW religion that could serve as example as to how this could be incorporated?
Well a "sort of" example in real world is the adaptation of certain holidays from "heathens" by "accepted religions". This is of course an organized effort to make the transition from one belief to another easier.
An example of dual worship - although a really special one - is Shakti Hunzrin from the Starlight & Shadows trilogy. She is a cleric of both Lolth and Vaeraun ... a "traitor priestess" and both gods know about it.
I would think there are loads of non-clerics who "revere" more than one god and the Harpers are an organization which works together with several faiths. Thats the point of having a pantheon, every god has a job to do and gets worshipped at the appropriate time. Only priests fully specialize in their belief, but I would think at least the good aligned gods / clerics respect other deities and their followers. Members of certain character classes tend to have certain preferences in deities (Wizards -> Mystra/Azuth/...; Warriors -> Torm/Helm/Tyr/...), but that doesnt exclude them from respecting other deities since it might be wise to give an offering to Umberlee when planning a long trip on the seas, even if you dont particularly like her ... |
| jibriil |
Posted - 15 Sep 2008 : 19:36:53
Are there any examples in the Time of Troubles regarding worshippers of Ao, being welcomed into the folds of any singular god or struggling to choose between the varied religions? Were they shunned by the deities for worshipping Ao?
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| jibriil |
Posted - 15 Sep 2008 : 19:03:58
Are there any characters that follow multiple gods? - say Mystra and Vhaerun? Is it possible?? Could someone who once followed Ao gain favour with any group of gods of similar disposition, A priestess of Eilistraee and servant of Mystra? Or even opposing such as Mielikki and Lolth? A Chaotic Neutral Extremist....
There must be some example of dual worship. Is there any example of this in RW religion that could serve as example as to how this could be incorporated? |
| IngoDjan |
Posted - 27 Aug 2008 : 03:44:22
I used Ao as one of the "true" god. I create a panteon of supreme gods. AO and two more Supreme Gods are the omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. Like this I made a history of player fight against all "minor gods" (Regular FR Gods). Was funny! |
| Varl |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 22:11:13
I've never used Ao either, but he gives me the easiest out to explain why none of the 4e nonsense will ever occur in my Realms. So sayeth the Overlord, baby. Booyah! |
| Neil |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 19:34:37
Maybe Ao just has a really long fuse? After all, it took him thousands and thousands of years to work himself up to the Time of Troubles. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 19:09:34
quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There is no way Shar should have been able to do that.
And even though he's just a watcher, I still don't see him just sitting back and watching as the world gets radically altered by divine action.
Of course, but wasn't it stated in one of the preview articles that Shar prevented the rising of a new deity of magic? It's this inconsistency that annoys me.
It was stated. And I am just as annoyed by things like that as you. |
| Ayunken-vanzan |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 18:56:22
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There is no way Shar should have been able to do that.
And even though he's just a watcher, I still don't see him just sitting back and watching as the world gets radically altered by divine action.
Of course, but wasn't it stated in one of the preview articles that Shar prevented the rising of a new deity of magic? It's this inconsistency that annoys me. |
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 15:34:45
I forgot about the Epilogue of Waterdeep until now. Does that mean that Mr. Spangly Robe in the <gag><choke> Bhaalspawn Saga was Ao after all?!?  I had thought that ... oy! ... why am I even bother worrying about it? It's the Bhaalspawn Saga ... I don't think that "thought" came into play at any time during the creation of that horrible mish-mash....
I follow the Planescape view of Ao: he/she/it/they is the overpower of Realmspace, as the Great God is the overpower of Krynn and You-Know-Who is the overpower of Earthspace.
I happened to be reading City of Splendors (ELB's book) a little while ago, and Eric says that Ao worship lasted all of six months in Waterdeep. In my campaign the Cynosure (the temple-turned public hall built for that short-lived religion in canon Realmslore) is the headquarters of a trading company owned by my own PCs-turned-NPCs. I wasn't aware until now, however, of the Impeded Magic trait in the Ruins of Myrkul (in which the Cynosure is located). Does anyone know the extent of the Ruins? That planar trait would be very significant in my own campaign if I adopt it, but I would like to know its dimensions (including how far under the surface it extends, if anyone happens to know). A little help, please!
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 13:00:44
quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
But he tries to preserve the balance. This is the main reason he created the gods after all, and given his reaction when the gods challenged the balance (-> ToT) he doesn't take it lightly if gods overstep their responsibilities. Killing Mystra may be in accordance with the portfolios of Cyric and Shar, but preventing a new deity of magic seems to be way beyond the portfolio of Shar.
There is no way Shar should have been able to do that.
And even though he's just a watcher, I still don't see him just sitting back and watching as the world gets radically altered by divine action. |
| Pandora |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 10:43:22
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Officially, it was said that YOU, the reader, was Ao's 'boss'.
Personally I always thought it would be easiest if the DM is Ao, since Ao created the world and every DM somehow adapts his own version of the Realms. You could also go for the "Ao is Ed Greenwood" (since he created the Realms as a setting), but then every DM would be "Ed Greenwoods boss" and thats where it starts getting complicated. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 10:21:35
quote:
Originally posted by IngoDjan
The text of the FRCG 4ed says this:
"Ao exists beyond the concept of alignment or worship.
He serves no one, and no one serves him. Instead
he watches all, sees all, and judges all."
But, in Avatar´s Trilogy, more precisely Waterdeep, in the end of the epilogue has a passage that says other thing:
"A luminous presence greeted him, enveloping his energies within its own. It was both a warm and a cold entity, for-giving and harsh. "And how does your cosmos fare, Ao?" The voice was at once both gentle and admonishing.
"They have restored the Balance, Master. The Realms are once again secure.""
After all, the people that wrote FRCG 4ed know the previsous scenario? Based in the TERRIBLE book I buy , I really think not!
You see, this excerpt from Waterdeep was just the icing on the cake - with regard to the rather unsatisfying Avatars series. When reading that, I instantly had the image of the (no disrespect whatsoever) gentle, admonishing, and utterly "good" Christian God in mind, watching over one and all, real world or FR. |
| Ayunken-vanzan |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 06:16:49
But he tries to preserve the balance. This is the main reason he created the gods after all, and given his reaction when the gods challenged the balance (-> ToT) he doesn't take it lightly if gods overstep their responsibilities. Killing Mystra may be in accordance with the portfolios of Cyric and Shar, but preventing a new deity of magic seems to be way beyond the portfolio of Shar. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 25 Aug 2008 : 21:14:01
quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
So Ao still exists in 4e?  And he did nothing to prevent or regulate the tide of events of the years 1384 and later? 
I guess not. According to the text, he sees all, watches all (isn't that more or less the same thing?), judges all--but apparently does nothing. In which case, he might as well not even be there. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 20:19:51
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
You know, with all the retcon's done during the edition changes I never understood why they didn't just remove the whole AO thing. Nobody has found any use for the whole idiotic idea since the Time of Troubles anyway.
Ao is supposed to remain a largely "unknown" element in terms of the Realms and the setting as a whole. He's an overpower -- unknowable. Look at what happened to the cults that grew up around Ao-worship after the ToT... They started up wanting to learn and know more about the mystery that is Ao. They, however, quickly faded and disappeared when it become apparent that Ao had no intention of answering prayers or having any type of relations with mortals.
And because of this he is even less necessary in my view. The whole thing never really fit in Faerun as I see it. One thing would be the myth of an over-god, a being that disillusioned people turned to, but a real overpower controlling everything. No, it just seems wrong to me.
But thats just my personal taste. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 18:00:31
I don't use Ao, and never would, under any circumstances.
But I don't mind his existance, either. Going back to old 2e cosmology, when everything was interconnected, I liked the idea that each Crystal Sphere had its own 'caretaker'. That being doesn't get involved with mortals - he could care less about them - his job is maintaining his Sphere and keeping it 'running' right.
And thats all. |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 17:26:03
quote:
Originally posted by IngoDjan
The text of the FRCG 4ed says this:
"Ao exists beyond the concept of alignment or worship.
He serves no one, and no one serves him. Instead
he watches all, sees all, and judges all."
That pretty much coincides with what Rich said way back when... |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 14:21:33
In our world, we are most relegious, but we do not care for AO... Most of all because only my char. knows about him, and secondly because he has no use to any mortal... In given time he might be someone to interact with, if one got powerful enough, but not now and not for a long time.
But yes AO has a master, and that master has a master. As far as I have ever read about the realms, there are always someone more powerful... Ending up with Dungeon Master, from the cartoons of the 80's He was da bomb.  |
| Skeptic |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 05:14:45
As an atheist that very much like playing religious characters in the Realms, AO is a concept that never made his way into my games. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 03:34:04
And that's understandable.
Although, sometimes, despite the best intentions of some scribes, discussions about religious influences in RPGs can rapidly turn nasty. So it's usually a good idea to just avoid them as much as possible. If there are some crucial points you want to make about real-world religions, feel free to take them to PMs. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 02:55:28
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Oh, and just a friendly Mod reminder...
Let's try to keep the references/discussions to/about real-world religions as brief as possible. 
I understand the desire to do so, but sometimes a given reference is better understood by a reference to real world mythology. Surely, everyone here is mature enough to handle people like HawkinstheDM mentioning the connections between Ao and evangelical Christianity.
Ao strikes me as a rather heavy handed rererence, sure, but it's better than shoving any one real world religion down our throats. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 01:23:13
Oh, and just a friendly Mod reminder...
Let's try to keep the references/discussions to/about real-world religions as brief as possible. |
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