| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Darkmeer |
Posted - 30 Jul 2008 : 03:31:48
Greetings fellow Scribes,
It has been a pleasure doing much research, and I believe that I have found a way to completely reconcile the old Great Wheel with that which has happened. Part of this came pre-Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, the other part came after (the bulk of the writing). what I did, in short, was determine the old (2e) locations of the deities, and then placed them along "branches" and "roots" on the Great Tree. Yggdrasil, according to 2e, did branch into EVERY plane, but it did not move the same way that the other paths around the planes did. So, given that information, I did a "popcorn garland" sort of branches. This allowed planes that are not "coterminous" according to the Wheel to actually sit alongside one another due to the planar connection given by the Great Tree.
Anyhoo, each section does need some work, and I'd love extra input. I do have to say a huge thank you to KnightErrantJR, as he allowed me to borrow his copies of Faiths & Avatars, Powers & Pantheons, as well as Demihuman Deities. These were exceedingly good references, and I appreciate it greatly.
As to the "other" deities of the realms not yet covered, I plan on getting the book of Realms' Giants' mythology (Giantcraft, correct?), as well as the Monstrous deities of the Realms (source, please, even if it's not "core Realms" of 2e). I am placing this along the great tree, and there are more branches that haven't been listed.
One other thing, before I get truly started with all of this: Ed has stated that Limbo is still very much connected to the Realms. This whole idea is what prompted my reconciliation. As always, this is NOT canon, nor do I expect everyone (and their mother) to use this material over the actual canon. This was done because in addition to the Realms, my first love of D&D is Planescape, and I love the crossover novels, such as Tymora's Luck (and there are references to that material that I'll get into in later edits). The information presented here is in 1373-74 DR, as I don't like the end of the GHotR, and I have kept all of the deities alive and well within their own realms. I would like a critique, or any other thoughts on the use of these crazy ideas, please.
Darkmeer the Dark, scribe of things beyond. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Darkmeer |
Posted - 12 Jan 2009 : 17:39:18
The base of the Great Tree holds great grounds all around, and on and under these grounds lie dangerous things, just waiting to be let out. The deities of the Illithids, Ilsensine and Maanzecorian (M is currently dead, correct?), hold court in a winding maze of tunnels, and it is rumored that if one travels the tunnels for too long, they will go completely insane. Further in the tunnels and root system, tunneling towards the abyss itself is the Beholder Pantheon (Great Mother and Gzemnid).
Wthin the House of Nature, an extension into the Clockwork Plane of Mechanus leads to the Myconid pantheon's deity, Psilofyr.
The Giant pantheon's branch, that of the Crystaline Branch leads all over the planes. The Crystal Palace of Annam is the central hub for the branch, which leads to the nine hells, carceri, the Abyss, the Beastlands, Elysium, Hades (Tarterus), Arcadia, Pandemonium, Mechanus, the Outlands, |
| Darkmeer |
Posted - 12 Jan 2009 : 17:27:09
Some edits from prior posts:
The Root of Despair, to the Barrens of Doom & Despair:
The deities of despair, following this root, travels along the lower planes of Acheron, Gehenna, Carceri, and into the Abyss's 13th layer. The root breaks it's surface on a great cog in mechanus which leads to the Doomcourt of Hoar. The wide variety of opponents, and the fact that one may meet travelers and refugees from the Blood War, as well as armed contingents, makes travel on this root particularly dangerous.
Nishrek is an odd root. It leads Acheron, a primarily “lawful” plane that contains some of the most chaotic beings in existance, the Orc Pantheon and Goblin Pantheons (which are oddly chaotic for a "lawful" pantheon). Their combined ideas and destructive nature are played out quite well on the metallic surface of the great cubes. This root carries through Gehenna, Pandemonium, the Grey Waste, and into an eternally dark layer of the abyss.
within.
Addition to the original: These roots have many inhabitants other than the human pantheon's members. The goblinoid pantheon, the Orc Pantheon, and others also reside here. They have found their way throughout the lower planes, and are primarily found in the eternal battlefield of Acheron, but other locales, such as Gehenna comprise their membership was well. To this end, Nishrek may be the same root, or it may be a completely new root
This includes the following additional deities
The Orc Pantheon: Gruumsh, Bahgtru, Ilneval, Luthic, Shargaas
The Goblin Pantheon: Magubleyet, Khugorbaeyag, Nomog-Geaya, Bargrivyek
Bugbear Pantheon: Hruggek, Grankhul, Skiggaret
Kobold Pantheon: Kurtulmak, Gaknulak, and Kuraulyek
An additional member of the House of Nature's branch is a member of the Goblin Pantheon, Meriadar, who promotes peace and harmony. |
| Darkmeer |
Posted - 12 Jan 2009 : 14:53:16
Just an update on my progress: I'm through most of Monster Mythology and I'll be posting the results within the month, as well as Giantcraft's results. There is a lot to reconcile, and I'd like an opinion on Orcs since I'm having the most difficulty with them.
They will be on Acheron, and I personally think that Gruumsh should have retained his LE disposition. However, this doesn't extend to the rest of the pantheon, primarily because all 3 evil alignments show themselves quite nicely. So what I'm thinking here is that Gruumsh, seeing the chaotic nature of his people, is allowing access to a domain that would normally be off limits (chaos), but sacrifices Law due to the problem of chaotic priests. This makes the alignments for Gruumsh's clergy change a bit, but otherwise keeps it very interesting. (I actually see LE, CE, NE, LN, and CN priests depending on dogma).
Anyhoo, the orc pantheon's reconciling is the most difficult, and I just want opinions on alignments (other than Gruumsh's), please.
Thanks for watching this space.
/d |
| Darkmeer |
Posted - 04 Aug 2008 : 06:38:09
Thanks all for the kind words, I'll be working on the Giants & non-humanoids as I said. I'll have more once I'm done reading the books, as I like to be fairly thorough in what I write.
/d |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 10:10:08
very well done and read.
|
| Darkmeer |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 07:50:50
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
I actually told Rich that only the death of Ao (not Mystra) would have logically caused all of the chaos and aftermath of the Spellplague. He said that it would, but that they would not have been able to get that past the fans (who would ask questions like: "can Ao even be killed?").
Ao's death would have explained things better... And considering the fan reaction to everything else, maybe they should have gone that route!
Agreed on both accounts there. I could get into that at a later time (and most likely will).
/d |
| Darkmeer |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 07:49:40
quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
Maybe you should mention that the Celestial Stairway connects to the Gates of the Moon (or did you do this by mentioning the "great number of paths"?).
Actually, I recalled bits and pieces of that lore, but I wasn't completely sure, so the "great number of paths" was my way of avoiding that topic entirely 
I'd really like to do all of the paths between, but I am doing a broad overview for now, and I'll get to doing a proper writeup of each "branch" or "root" after I finish the broad overviews (at least from the Faerunian Prime perspective). I really enjoy the tiny bit of planar lore that really wasn't explored in 3.5, and I'm going to finish this lore off myself as I'm sticking to 3.5 (and/or Spycraft/Pathfinder too). We'll see how far I get once I finish Giants & "Monster" deities. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 01:50:50
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
I actually told Rich that only the death of Ao (not Mystra) would have logically caused all of the chaos and aftermath of the Spellplague. He said that it would, but that they would not have been able to get that past the fans (who would ask questions like: "can Ao even be killed?").
Ao's death would have explained things better... And considering the fan reaction to everything else, maybe they should have gone that route!
|
| Faraer |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 01:08:53
What a coincidence, me too!
Also remember that Realms sources generally talk about the Outer Planes, not the Planescape neologism 'Great Wheel'. The term 'Great Tree' doesn't figure in the FRCS either, for that matter. Both of these reinforce the fact that Realms folk don't especially see the planes as these round or square or treelike maps, much as the shape of Faerûn drawn by cartographers isn't how most imagine the land. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 01:03:51
When it comes to the subject of utilising material for both the Great Wheel and the Tree in the same campaign, I prefer to interprete both 'cosmologies' as fallible mortal maps of the same 'place' -- often relying heavily on the words of Ed for inspiration:-
"The Great Wheel or any other cosmology doesn’t bother me, just as avatar stats and the endless “but this god came first, or can beat that god” arguments don’t: mortal PCs can’t know the truth about the gods anyway, because every in-game source (supreme priests, avatars of the gods themselves, holy writings) they could possibly learn all this stuff from is biased. Everything. So it really is all up to the DM."
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| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 01:03:06
I've never used Ao in my games. He's just the uncaring glue that holds the cosmos together. Gods are ants to him, and mortals are microbes at best.
I actually don't mind that there's an overgod there (i.e. he's preventing gods from other worlds to intrude in the Realms, like the Lady of Pain does for Sigil). The only difference is that the Lady of Pain does not allow ANY god at all in her domain... |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 30 Jul 2008 : 23:59:20
Ao is one bit of the established lore that I actually ignore. I see it as them (TSR and WotC) trying to impose a Judeo-Christian over-deity in a world where one does not belong (and I am a Christian  ). I actually told Rich that only the death of Ao (not Mystra) would have logically caused all of the chaos and aftermath of the Spellplague. He said that it would, but that they would not have been able to get that past the fans (who would ask questions like: "can Ao even be killed?"). Once again, sub-par logic applied to the 4e Realms. That is what galls me most of all, I think (I know, this seems to contradict what I have previously said I dislike the most; but all the things that I have previously said I dislike the most actually fall under "gross mis-use of logic" if you think about it).
Apology for thread-jacking... |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 30 Jul 2008 : 22:48:41
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I always figured you could blend the Wheel and the Tree by leaving the Tree mostly as is, and saying that the planes it reaches are just domains on or sub-planes of the planes on the Wheel.
I've always said that as well! (my theory is that Ao himself is the "tree", an incorporeal "shape" that is juxtaposed and coterminous to the Great Wheel, so yes, in my Realms, the Gates of the Moon, say, can span Elysium and Arborea) |
| Ayunken-vanzan |
Posted - 30 Jul 2008 : 21:04:55
Maybe you should mention that the Celestial Stairway connects to the Gates of the Moon (or did you do this by mentioning the "great number of paths"?). |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 30 Jul 2008 : 16:38:55
Wow, that is amazing work Darkmeer! Well done indeed. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Jul 2008 : 14:49:23
I always figured you could blend the Wheel and the Tree by leaving the Tree mostly as is, and saying that the planes it reaches are just domains on or sub-planes of the planes on the Wheel. |
| Quale |
Posted - 30 Jul 2008 : 14:03:02
dope thread
we created something similar, uniting both cosmologies and adding some new layers and planes, merging some, so I didn't stay this close to canon, cause there are certain parts of Great Wheel and the Tree that I don't like
I started writing about it here http://www.forgottenrealmsvault.com/boards/viewforum.php?f=26 and will continue, the next is Gates of the Moon |
| Wandering_mage |
Posted - 30 Jul 2008 : 10:20:10
Fantastic info! That is some hard work right there. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 30 Jul 2008 : 06:16:52
quote:
Originally posted by Darkmeer
And Sage, do expect me to get the rest of the deities done, although it may take me just as long as it did to finish this particular bit, but I will finish the lore
Neat.
If you do find you'll require some assistance with that, feel free to drop me a PM. 
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| Darkmeer |
Posted - 30 Jul 2008 : 04:43:54
And there we have it, all of the deities accounted for and placed within the proper locations on the Great Wheel (or at least close to the right locations). What I hope you take away from this is an idea or two for a "planar" adventure that opens a prime from Toril's eyes to the greater planes, or, perhaps, even decide that some of this might just fit into your campaign.
As far as the dead deities, I haven't placed them anywhere other than the Astral, and Leira's body may be in the astral, just invisible to those who want to find her, and visible to those who don't. Perhaps her "avatar" that was slain wasn't her at all, but that is for you to decide.
As to the Bane/Xvim idea, I have to give full credit to KnightErrantJR for that wonderful idea. It adds a certain flavor, and I personally use his write up on that that you can find here on Candlekeep.
Anyways, thank you everyone for reading, and I'll edit each section as all of us scribes add to the "non-canon lore." And Sage, do expect me to get the rest of the deities done, although it may take me just as long as it did to finish this particular bit, but I will finish the lore
/d |
| Darkmeer |
Posted - 30 Jul 2008 : 04:37:58
The Warrior's Rest is a great branch indeed. It reaches from Limbo to the Prime Material, to Pandemonium, and then back again “up” to Ysgard. The largest temple to Red Knight is where the branch touches the Prime, allowing Red Knight the safety of the realms without forcing her within.
and, finally:
And the only “voluntary” sleeping power on Faerun is Ulutiu, where there is little that can be said until the end of the world.
Now, on the Astral plane sits the dead powers of the Realms, as well as the deities of other unknown worlds that have passed on. The one striking revelation in all of this research is that all of the deities that are "dead" have been accounted for, except one. Leira. |
| Darkmeer |
Posted - 30 Jul 2008 : 04:34:53
The Supreme Throne's root leads through howling caverns within Pandemonium. The only deity to reside here is Cyric, and he seems to be perfectly happy with that arrangement.
::author's Note:: KnightErrantJR's anatomy of an apocalypse adds some new flavor to Cyric's madness. Perhaps the ideas in there could be utilized here, but due to the date not being during that timeframe, I have not allowed myself to use it (much to my own dismay). |
| Darkmeer |
Posted - 30 Jul 2008 : 04:32:59
The Prime Material, Faerun, contains many seeds, and even some places that should touch the planes. There are some, however, that do not touch anything. Both Gargauth and Eshowdow do not reach into the outer planes, but keep within Faerun itself, not touching the Great Tree at all.
The Prime Material on Toril even extends it's own branches out to other worlds, and realms. The Imaskar empire brought many slaves from the far reaches of the Prime material, and, more recently, the now Dead god Moander brought the Saurials from an unknown world.
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| Darkmeer |
Posted - 30 Jul 2008 : 04:30:31
Until recently, the plane of shadow was considered a demi, or semi, plane. The effects of the Time of Troubles combined with resurgence in power with the City of Shade has helped the domain of Shadow to become a “true” plane in scholarly minds. Both Mask and Shar have realms here, but are not exactly strong allies. The Shadow Weave is very strong here, with the actual weave much diminished while on this plane. There is even a rumor that Shar herself temporarily allied with Mask to bring the plane into a closer proximity to the Prime Material to facilitate the return of Shade. Again, this is a wild speculation, but due to the Return of Shade, is it such a wild idea? |
| Darkmeer |
Posted - 30 Jul 2008 : 04:27:39
Nishrek is an odd root. It leads Acheron, a primarily “lawful” plane that contains some of the most chaotic beings in existance, the Orc Pantheon and Goblin Pantheons (which are oddly chaotic for a "lawful" pantheon). Their combined ideas and destructive nature are played out quite well on the metallic surface of the great cubes
within.
::Author's Notes:: I have a lot of these, don't I? Anyhoo... I really like the Pathfinder goblins, and as such I have adapted most of the Realms goblins to that style of freakish-ness. The only ones I haven't touched in that manner are the Dekanter and Grodd goblins. |
| Darkmeer |
Posted - 30 Jul 2008 : 04:24:20
The burnt root, the serpentine root, leads to the Nine hells. This root only leads to the Nine hells, places unfit for civilized folk, but containing a rigid caste system within itself. It is as structured and rigid as it is terrifying.
::Author's Note:: I personally like the multiple origins for the planes and the Nine Hells in particular. I prefer the Guide to Hell version with Ahriman and Jazirian as the "truth," even the chaotic have a place within the planes... a structured type of chaos, but a place nonetheless. |
| Darkmeer |
Posted - 30 Jul 2008 : 04:22:06
The House of the Triad's tri-sided branch leads across Mechanus, Bytopia, Mount Celestia, and the Prime. This branch is oddly rigid in shape and size, remaining thick until nearly the end of the branch, which waves across the Prime at strangely even intervals. This pattern at which it touches is random, primarily determined by Helm (of all deities), and conferred with Siamorphe.
::Author's Note:: This is a reconciliation, in my mind, from the events where Helm struck down Mystra during the ToT. perhaps this is a granted power from Ao to help Helm become a stronger Guardian... |
| Darkmeer |
Posted - 30 Jul 2008 : 04:20:08
The House of Nature's branch leads across the upper planes, mostly. The Beastlands, Outlands, and Elysium are the most common places, with one or two points touching the Prime Material so that Lurue and Gwaeron Windstorm may enter the House of Nature to call upon assistance when necessary. There are many points of contact, mostly across the North, Sword Coast, Dalelands, and the Moonsea, but there are others, and they tend to be places of worship for Gwaeron and Lurue. Not at all strangely, these truly holy sites are very, very well guarded. |
| Darkmeer |
Posted - 30 Jul 2008 : 04:18:14
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Darkmeer
As to the "other" deities of the realms not yet covered, I plan on getting the book of Realms' Giants' mythology (Giantcraft, correct?)
That's right.
quote:
... as well as the Monstrous deities of the Realms (source, please, even if it's not "core Realms" of 2e).
You'll probably want copies of both Monster Mythology and On Hallowed Ground [which isn't available as a Paizo PDF download unfortunately].
Many thanks, Sage. That's what I had thought, but I figured I'd check first. |
| Darkmeer |
Posted - 30 Jul 2008 : 04:16:54
Primarily in the Outlands and the Beastlands, the House of Knowledge's branch leads in many conflicting directions and hides a great many secrets. This does imply that the defenses are quite strong, but this may or may not be the case.
There are even rumors of a non-Realms deity that is attempting to cause a great deal of trouble within the House of Knowledge, a one-eyed lich of great power and keeper of great secrets. When and if he truly reveals himself, the consequences could be dire for all on Abeir-Toril.
::Author's Note:: This is a not-so-thinly veiled reference to the events of Die Vecna Die, which I had initially placed in 1385 DR in my personal timeline for all the planes. |
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