| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Bugoron_Bearfang |
Posted - 13 Jun 2008 : 21:17:44
I apologize if this is elsewhere posted, but I couldn't find it. Is there some way or place of finding out which Elven family names belong to the Wild Elves and their families and tribes? If so, I'd be very grateful for a push in that direction! :) |
| 29 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 26 Feb 2020 : 21:38:19
Eric,
That is really interesting. I didn't realize that that is how the different ethnicities of Elves worked in their structuring. Very cool. Thank you!
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Just to be clear then, what's the difference between succession and hierarchies between a tribal clan and a formal house.
I think in my mind a tribal clan is almost democratic, the senior members choose the leader to represent them and so that leader and hierarchy can change dramatically with each leader.
Whereas a house would have a particular bloodline from which the leadership would change based upon already established laws of succession (like eldest male).
Is that close to the truth as you picture it or am I way off.
Yes, that is definitely part of it. It's not exclusive ... you could have a clan where leadership was inherited or a house where leadership is elected, but the house is much more about the bloodline and the clan is much more about the tribal totem (if there is one).
|
| ericlboyd |
Posted - 26 Feb 2020 : 17:00:27
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Just to be clear then, what's the difference between succession and hierarchies between a tribal clan and a formal house.
I think in my mind a tribal clan is almost democratic, the senior members choose the leader to represent them and so that leader and hierarchy can change dramatically with each leader.
Whereas a house would have a particular bloodline from which the leadership would change based upon already established laws of succession (like eldest male).
Is that close to the truth as you picture it or am I way off.
Yes, that is definitely part of it. It's not exclusive ... you could have a clan where leadership was inherited or a house where leadership is elected, but the house is much more about the bloodline and the clan is much more about the tribal totem (if there is one). |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 26 Feb 2020 : 17:00:12
Oh and renewal of the covenant sounds very interesting, especially if it involves the lands of intrigue area (which needs a lot of historical tidying up in amn and tethyr). |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 26 Feb 2020 : 16:57:46
Just to be clear then, what's the difference between succession and hierarchies between a tribal clan and a formal house.
I think in my mind a tribal clan is almost democratic, the senior members choose the leader to represent them and so that leader and hierarchy can change dramatically with each leader.
Whereas a house would have a particular bloodline from which the leadership would change based upon already established laws of succession (like eldest male).
Is that close to the truth as you picture it or am I way off. |
| ericlboyd |
Posted - 26 Feb 2020 : 15:36:26
It's not about "chaotic." It more whether they are more tribal (i.e. wood elve and wild elves) or more civilized (i.e. moon and gold elves).
Note that the earliest instances of references in Cormanthyr to the Vyshaan ruling family were to Clan Vyshaan, not House Vyshaan.
I'm interpreting that to mean that the formal house structure emerged among the elves in the -15,000 to -10,000 DR timeframe.
--Eric
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Eric,
So do the Wood and Wild Elves just have less hierarchy as a means to show they are more "chaotic" than the others?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I've always struggled with the difference between clan and house among elves and dwarves
Here's my understanding:
Dwarves have clans and royal houses. Houses are really clans within clans.
For elves:
Gold elves, moon elves, and drow have noble houses (major and minor).
Wood elves and wild elves have clans.
There are strict rules for how each house works in terms of succession, membership, etc. but those rules aren't necessarily consistent across elven houses.
|
| ericlboyd |
Posted - 26 Feb 2020 : 15:32:26
I'm also loosely tying them into the history fo King Strohm IV.
"King Strohm IV never married, but had long been engaged to his wood elven consort, Lady Speaker Aimaeriitha Moonglamaer of the Elmanesse tribe."
Is what I have written in Renewal of the Covenant (the other project I'm working on).
quote:
Originally posted by Duneth Despana
quote:
Originally posted by Vangelor
Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves lists a few green-elf families that held seats on the council of nobles (when they cared to show up). These were Audark, Oakstaff and Moonglamer.
Not much seems to be established regarding Clan Moonglamer. Perhaps that's one to Ask Ed.
The Moonglamaer are mentioned in Erics write-up
for the Unicorn Blade.
|
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 26 Feb 2020 : 07:19:07
Eric,
So do the Wood and Wild Elves just have less hierarchy as a means to show they are more "chaotic" than the others?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I've always struggled with the difference between clan and house among elves and dwarves
Here's my understanding:
Dwarves have clans and royal houses. Houses are really clans within clans.
For elves:
Gold elves, moon elves, and drow have noble houses (major and minor).
Wood elves and wild elves have clans.
There are strict rules for how each house works in terms of succession, membership, etc. but those rules aren't necessarily consistent across elven houses.
|
| Duneth Despana |
Posted - 30 Sep 2019 : 21:56:08
quote:
Originally posted by Vangelor
Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves lists a few green-elf families that held seats on the council of nobles (when they cared to show up). These were Audark, Oakstaff and Moonglamer.
Not much seems to be established regarding Clan Moonglamer. Perhaps that's one to Ask Ed.
The Moonglamaer are mentioned in Erics write-up
for the Unicorn Blade. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 17 Sep 2019 : 22:26:33
A clan is just a "more extended" form of extended family, with organization level anywhere from having vague notion of cohesion to formal hierarchy.
But since the important part of being a "noble house" is "noble", it looks like this means a clan which got place/status/privileges in the larger and at least somewhat formal structure of power?
In case of Cormanthyr, that's pretty much it: in the sourcebook "Noble Families and the Nobles' Council" doesn't suggest any criteria other than noble families being the ones invited to the Nobles' Council; other parts mention they have the right of way and certain positions (such as judge) are nobles-only.
There are Green noble families listed in Cormanthyr (Audark, Moonglamaer, Oakstaff) - but then, Cormanthyr is not primarily Green elf territory.
So, it looks like the Green elves on their own don't seem to have much of organization or formality to go around, just a loose tribal structure, but when in the same realm as more civilized elves, it makes sense to maintain at least superficial compatibility, so they play this game, if somewhat reluctantly (mostly keep to themselves and don't bother to drop in unless summoned). |
| ericlboyd |
Posted - 17 Sep 2019 : 21:22:43
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I've always struggled with the difference between clan and house among elves and dwarves
Here's my understanding:
Dwarves have clans and royal houses. Houses are really clans within clans.
For elves:
Gold elves, moon elves, and drow have noble houses (major and minor).
Wood elves and wild elves have clans.
There are strict rules for how each house works in terms of succession, membership, etc. but those rules aren't necessarily consistent across elven houses. |
| BrennonGoldeye |
Posted - 17 Sep 2019 : 14:38:33
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Because there is no clear separation. There are Sun Elf Moonflowers, and Moon Elf Starym, and so on.
I doubt it. There are mixed clans, and even more of clans in Cormanthor are designated as one subrace, yet have another on "prominent members" list.
But all those are noble houses in mostly non- Green Elven realms; mostly-Green places have a basic tribal organization.
Which are lately down to just Evereska (mostly-Silver, and Green elves can go High Forest where they can live with the other settled Greens and dance with fairies if they feel laidback, or join "New Eaerlann" project if they feel somewhat ambitious) and Evermeet (later also it's Myth Drannor 2.0 colony).
Otherwise the Green elves tend to separate from the rest, more so than Silver vs. Gold. Thus Green+Gold|Silver mixed clans are not quite exotic, but not common either.
If descendants of such a clan marry to others of their subrace, the likely options are to either retain name (it's already a mixed clan, so nothing changed), go and take the name from the other line, or pick a new name closer to that tradition.
Honestly, your doubting the guy who compiled the Complete Elven History long before GHotR? I can summon him if ya wish.. Just have to say his name 3 times... Steven... Steven... |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 16 Sep 2019 : 12:29:52
I've always struggled with the difference between clan and house among elves and dwarves |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 16 Sep 2019 : 12:01:50
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Because there is no clear separation. There are Sun Elf Moonflowers, and Moon Elf Starym, and so on.
I doubt it. There are mixed clans, and even more of clans in Cormanthor are designated as one subrace, yet have another on "prominent members" list.
But all those are noble houses in mostly non- Green Elven realms; mostly-Green places have a basic tribal organization.
Which are lately down to just Evereska (mostly-Silver, and Green elves can go High Forest where they can live with the other settled Greens and dance with fairies if they feel laidback, or join "New Eaerlann" project if they feel somewhat ambitious) and Evermeet (later also it's Myth Drannor 2.0 colony).
Otherwise the Green elves tend to separate from the rest, more so than Silver vs. Gold. Thus Green+Gold|Silver mixed clans are not quite exotic, but not common either.
If descendants of such a clan marry to others of their subrace, the likely options are to either retain name (it's already a mixed clan, so nothing changed), go and take the name from the other line, or pick a new name closer to that tradition. |
| Copper Elven Vampire |
Posted - 14 Sep 2019 : 23:43:11
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Bugoron_Bearfang
Oh, I've been there. What I need that this list doesn't give is a seperation of what Elven surnames belong to which subrace. This has been the case with all lists I've found, where all surnames are just bunched together and not categorized by the type of Elf they belong to.
-Because there is no clear separation. There are Sun Elf Moonflowers, and Moon Elf Starym, and so on.
-My advice is to choose the ones that sound the most "woodsy" to you, and there you go. You can also choose an existing surname with the caveat that, at some point, members of the family integrated into the Elven communities you are shooting for.
Brilliant. Been doing that for over 25 years now. A moon elf father and a Copper elf mother can have children of both sub-races indeed.
In Return of the Archwizards trilogy.... Galaeron a moon elf has a Moon elf father and a Copper elf mother. I forget if his little sister was a moon or copper elf. |
| Vangelor |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 22:04:08
Have I hit a goldmine for you!
I went back through my copy of Lands of Intrigue to research the story of Tethir Dragonslayer, and happened upon a listing of green elf clans following the sundering of the great green elf realm of Keltormir into fragmentary forest states. Those listed are:
Sylvanight, Shyr, and Tamlyranth
Suldusk, Tethir, and the Stilmyst
Berilan, Fellmirr, and Shiningbright
Of these, as mentioned above, only the Suldusk remain of the original clans circa 1370 DR. It is possible that descendants of any of the others migrated to Illefarn or Earlann, or even to Evermeet, and that the clan names are still carried by living elves in Faerun, either in Ardeep Wood, the High Forest, or elsewhere.
Hope these help. Thirteen clan names should at least be something to work with.  |
| Vangelor |
Posted - 25 Aug 2008 : 01:46:59
Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves lists a few green-elf families that held seats on the council of nobles (when they cared to show up). These were Audark, Oakstaff and Moonglamer.
Oakstaff at least is still present in Cormanthor. The Oakstaff of Tangled Trees is a senior druid of Rillifane, carrying substantial authority in that community.
Clan Audark, like Oakstaff, were native to the Tangled Vale. They are reknowned for their pyrrhic victory over the mate of the green drake, 'Venom', and became the first spirit guardians of the Vale of Lost Voices. Audark was also the clan name of the last Coronal of Illefarn.
Not much seems to be established regarding Clan Moonglamer. Perhaps that's one to Ask Ed.
Silver Shadows and Lands of Intrigue name the two green elf tribes still extant in the Forest of Tethir or Wealdath: Elmanesse (refugees from Cormanthor following the Fall of Myth Drannor) and Suldusk (native descendents of the green elves of old Keltormir).
There may be a few I am forgetting, but in general, Sy'Tel'Quessir have received less detailed treatment than other quessir races. If I recall or encounter any others I will post them here. |
| chance87 |
Posted - 23 Aug 2008 : 15:11:36
Remember that with elven breeding, all descendants are an "either...or". So a Moon elf mating with a Wild elf and having 6 offspring would likely bear 3 Moon elven children and 3 Wild elven children (statistically speaking, of course), all with the same surname. |
| monknwildcat |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 22:12:07
The Yuir Cha'Tel'Quessir appear to substitute surname with tree-family (e.g. Shali of MightyTree, Rizcarn of GoldenMoss; source: The Simbul's Gift by Lynn Abbey).
These are half-wild elves and not full elves, and these are descendants of Yuir wild elves, which seem atypical wild elves, but it does add some flavor if anybody's looking for wild elf naming conventions. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 17 Jun 2008 : 13:22:33
quote:
Originally posted by Bugoron_BearfangAhh, thank you! THAT clarifies it for me, I wasn't aware that such was the case. That helps me greatly, I appreciate the insight! And thank you to everyone else who gave their input! :)
-No problem. |
| Bugoron_Bearfang |
Posted - 17 Jun 2008 : 02:02:08
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by Bugoron_Bearfang
Oh, I've been there. What I need that this list doesn't give is a seperation of what Elven surnames belong to which subrace. This has been the case with all lists I've found, where all surnames are just bunched together and not categorized by the type of Elf they belong to.
-Because there is no clear separation. There are Sun Elf Moonflowers, and Moon Elf Starym, and so on.
-My advice is to choose the ones that sound the most "woodsy" to you, and there you go. You can also choose an existing surname with the caveat that, at some point, members of the family integrated into the Elven communities you are shooting for.
Ahh, thank you! THAT clarifies it for me, I wasn't aware that such was the case. That helps me greatly, I appreciate the insight! And thank you to everyone else who gave their input! :) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 16 Jun 2008 : 16:38:12
And I look at it this way: WotC adds new stuff to "canon" all the time. No reason for players/DMs to refrain from doing that. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 16 Jun 2008 : 04:52:18
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Another option is to simply create your own names.
-Mmm hmm...If name generation is what you are looking for, there is previous precedent to build upon, and to go for effect, there is plenty canon Elven in the Elven Language section of Elves of Faerūnto make something authentic sounding. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 15 Jun 2008 : 21:21:08
Another option is to simply create your own names. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 15 Jun 2008 : 14:17:33
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
Have you checked Races of Faerun? There is a seperate entry for each elven sub-race, IIRC. Don't have my books handy so I cannot check for you.
-No, that book won't be of any use in this case. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 15 Jun 2008 : 14:16:41
quote:
Originally posted by Bugoron_Bearfang
Oh, I've been there. What I need that this list doesn't give is a seperation of what Elven surnames belong to which subrace. This has been the case with all lists I've found, where all surnames are just bunched together and not categorized by the type of Elf they belong to.
-Because there is no clear separation. There are Sun Elf Moonflowers, and Moon Elf Starym, and so on.
-My advice is to choose the ones that sound the most "woodsy" to you, and there you go. You can also choose an existing surname with the caveat that, at some point, members of the family integrated into the Elven communities you are shooting for. |
| IronAngel |
Posted - 15 Jun 2008 : 12:14:26
I guess ancient Crown Wars history might have something? Unfortunately, the clans of the wild elf nations weren't specified in the sources I know of, but perhaps there's been elaboration on that somewhere? |
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 15 Jun 2008 : 10:44:08
Have you checked Races of Faerun? There is a seperate entry for each elven sub-race, IIRC. Don't have my books handy so I cannot check for you. |
| Bugoron_Bearfang |
Posted - 15 Jun 2008 : 08:11:15
Oh, I've been there. What I need that this list doesn't give is a seperation of what Elven surnames belong to which subrace. This has been the case with all lists I've found, where all surnames are just bunched together and not categorized by the type of Elf they belong to. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 15 Jun 2008 : 00:50:53
-A list of Elven given names (split along gender) and surnames can be found in Elves of Faerūn. All are canon. |
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