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 Stardeep: Chapters 25 - 29

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T O P I C    R E V I E W
Alaundo Posted - 05 Oct 2007 : 17:50:59
Well met

This is a Book Club thread for Stardeep (Book 3 of the Dungeons series), by Bruce R. Cordell. Please discuss chapters 25 - 29 herein.

Please also see Bruce's dedicated Stardeep website for more details.
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Victor_ograygor Posted - 17 Jul 2008 : 08:43:28
I really enjoyed reading Stardeep, but had a hard time coming through the first forty pages. I missed more information on Adrik, but It didn’t come as a chook that he died. I had the feeling that he would, since there wasn’t much back ground history revealed about him.

I liked the way the book ended.

vic
Kyrene Posted - 09 Jun 2008 : 11:15:58
At this point it is difficult for me to choose my favourite of The Dungeons, having only read the first three. That said, I'm about 30 pages into the fourth, and I think Crypt of the Moaning Diamond is going to be the overall winner, hands down.

Back on topic though...

I ended up really enjoying the sci-fi-ish tone of Stardeep and found it quite appropriate considering it included star elves and Sildëyuir. Certain scenes were a bit cliché, like Adrik's death and the puppy-like Xet allowing Gage to scratch it under the chin to indicate that it was going to live after all. I liked Raidon as a monk but his Cerullean powers just made him seem like a Deus Ex Machina at times. Delphe has closed off Stardeep, oh nevermind, Raidon will use his amulet to get the story out of that corner and the villain to the showdown. I really liked that a simple backstab/sneak attack with a mundane dagger thwarted the villain.

Of Bruce's three FR novels, this certainly is by far the best, in terms of story/plot and editing. I think I found one mistake towards the beginning of the book, where Lady of Poison and Darkvision were riddled with editorial mistakes. Overall I'd give this a 7/10.
Alisttair Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 16:06:38
I would like to add that I agree with the "variety on the buffet table" take on things. I'm one of those who will take some of everything, with a few extra plates of what I prefer (re-read my favs) but will not shy away from trying my least favs each and every time a new recipe comes out.
Alisttair Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 15:58:56
It was nice to read up on Star Elves also
Lameth Posted - 06 Jan 2008 : 12:41:27
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

I just want to say I was *really* surprised and saddened when Adrik died. I did not see that coming at all.

OK, it was likely to happen but I kept thinking he'd somehow pull through.



It was like a cliche. The ever hungry mage for informations. A fight breaks out, the mage goes down. Mage gets healing, fight breaks out, the mage goes down. Nobody to heal the mage, mage dies.
:-)
Sad for Adrik, I liked him very much. But it`s a hart world out there *g*
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin Posted - 02 Jan 2008 : 18:52:58
I just want to say I was *really* surprised and saddened when Adrik died. I did not see that coming at all.

OK, it was likely to happen but I kept thinking he'd somehow pull through.
Firestorm Posted - 14 Dec 2007 : 17:21:45
Ignore BeezerNM.
I enjoyed Stardeep very much. Ill post a full review later
Brian R. James Posted - 14 Dec 2007 : 01:56:50
Bruce,

Stardeep was a fun novel. Kiril is a great character that resonates with me more strongly than say Ususi or Marrec. I'd really like to read more about her, if even only in a short story.

But what I really want to know... is the name of that ancient god of the vine, whose deranged face is carved on the side of Kiril's flask.
The Red Walker Posted - 05 Dec 2007 : 21:33:54
quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack

Very good read! I like Kiril's character. All of the characters were intriguing... Mr. Cordell, I have enjoyed all of your novels. I would like to see a novel of yours bring together some of your past and previous characters. A combination of the cleric of Lurue (what's his name?)Kiril, Raidon and your Imaskar mage would be fun... I really want you to continue the story of Sildeyuir... Will the remaining Star Elves be forced back to Faerun? Will they call on aid from Evermeet? How about Kiril leads a company of Empyrean Knights to Sildeyuir to aid in the struggle? After all, the Nilshai are servants of the Aboleth's, so it seems natural to take the fight to them... Angul is a very potent weapon against them and, hopefully, will be brought to bear in the struggle for Sildeyuir...



Merrik (sp?) was a nice character.(liked his weapon being a spear, very unusual for a priest.

Kiril is a great character who story is begging to be told further!
ShadowJack Posted - 05 Dec 2007 : 17:35:58
Very good read! I like Kiril's character. All of the characters were intriguing... Mr. Cordell, I have enjoyed all of your novels. I would like to see a novel of yours bring together some of your past and previous characters. A combination of the cleric of Lurue (what's his name?)Kiril, Raidon and your Imaskar mage would be fun... I really want you to continue the story of Sildeyuir... Will the remaining Star Elves be forced back to Faerun? Will they call on aid from Evermeet? How about Kiril leads a company of Empyrean Knights to Sildeyuir to aid in the struggle? After all, the Nilshai are servants of the Aboleth's, so it seems natural to take the fight to them... Angul is a very potent weapon against them and, hopefully, will be brought to bear in the struggle for Sildeyuir...
BruceCordell Posted - 05 Dec 2007 : 05:42:36
quote:
Originally posted by Na-Gang

I really enjoyed this book. Aberrations as a major threat to the realms has long been one of my favourite themes and it was good to see that theme finally making it into an FR Novel.

As soon as Cynosure was introduced I was thinking 'Hal, 2001' and I'm glad he turned out to not be the corrupt architect of the piece after all.

Bruce, can you tell us any more about the Traitor (doubtful, but it's worth asking)? Like, how old is the Traitor? When did they 'fall' to the corruption of the Aboleth Sovereignty? Their original name?



I'm glad you enjoyed it!

As far as the Traitor goes, he turned bad right around the founding of Sildeyuir. It is currently unrevealed what the Traitor found that led him to become so enamored of the Sovereignty. His original name is stricken, but more likely, everyone currently alive has just forgotten it, though perhaps the Edgewarden knows.
Na-Gang Posted - 01 Dec 2007 : 12:38:15
I really enjoyed this book. Aberrations as a major threat to the realms has long been one of my favourite themes and it was good to see that theme finally making it into an FR Novel.

As soon as Cynosure was introduced I was thinking 'Hal, 2001' and I'm glad he turned out to not be the corrupt architect of the piece after all.

Bruce, can you tell us any more about the Traitor (doubtful, but it's worth asking)? Like, how old is the Traitor? When did they 'fall' to the corruption of the Aboleth Sovereignty? Their original name?
BruceCordell Posted - 27 Nov 2007 : 20:34:25
quote:
Originally posted by Ramar

I enjoyed the novel a lot Bruce. I have a few comments/questions:

(1) Is the existence of the Aboleth Sovereignty's city reference in any previous or soon to come realm lore?
(2) Is Kiril a keeper of the seal or merely a high ranking knight? Do you see membership in the keep of the cerelean seal prestige class as being necessary for a keeper?
(3) Are the signs in FR minor artifacts? The inability of the keepers to make them seem to point in that direction.
(4) I really like your view of moral ambiguity in the "rightness" that Angul sees in exercising its duties. Was this merely an application of the idea that intelligent weapons are extremely restricted in their views or something more?

Keep up the good work.



Thanks! In answer:

1) Soon to come realms lore.
2) Kiril was a past Keeper of the Cerulean Sign. In the novel, the lines are blurred between a Keeper (a sanctioned 'warden' of the Stardeep dungeon) and a Keeper of the Cerulean Sign (someone pledged to fight aberrations using specific lore and sometimes, tools, as might be the case for a prestige class). From a novel perspective, I don't see it's necessary for one to have the prestige class to be a Keeper of Stardeep. On the game side, it's also not necessary to even have heard of the Traitor and Stardeep to be prestige class member of the organization--one could be a self-taught Keeper using lore old books chance-found, for instance.
3) Yes, the amulet Delphe had and Raidon yet retains are artifacts. Having one of those would allow you to access Cerulean Sign powers even if you did not train as a Keeper (in either novel or game sense).
4) It is an indictment of absolute certainty in any realm. To be absolutely certain without the ability to examine new evidence or change one's mind is one of the fatal flaws of human beings. A sword with Angul's specific traits is an ideal showcase for such stratified dogma in action. I'm glad Angul's greater self made an appearance for a time to give the blade a moral face at the end.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 21:10:29
quote:
Originally posted by Ramar
(2) Is Kiril a keeper of the seal or merely a high ranking knight? Do you see membership in the keep of the cerelean seal prestige class as being necessary for a keeper?



Not Bruce, but I can answer this in part--Kiril was in fact a Keeper.
Ramar Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 20:47:41
I enjoyed the novel a lot Bruce. I have a few comments/questions:

(1) Is the existence of the Aboleth Sovereignty's city reference in any previous or soon to come realm lore?
(2) Is Kiril a keeper of the seal or merely a high ranking knight? Do you see membership in the keep of the cerelean seal prestige class as being necessary for a keeper?
(3) Are the signs in FR minor artifacts? The inability of the keepers to make them seem to point in that direction.
(4) I really like your view of moral ambiguity in the "rightness" that Angul sees in exercising its duties. Was this merely an application of the idea that intelligent weapons are extremely restricted in their views or something more?

Keep up the good work.
The Red Walker Posted - 17 Nov 2007 : 20:59:06
quote:
Originally posted by nb_nmare

quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Also was not a big fan of the Nilshai. Big shapeless masses with tentacles, green rays, etc.....brought to mind a "stripped down base model" Phaerrim(sp?)


I hope you realise the Nilshai predate this novel? AFAIK they were first mentioned in the Unapproachable East sourcebook, and both they and the realm of Sildëyuir featured in the Last Mythal trilogy (specifically book 2, Farthest Reach).

You're right that they bear some similarities with the phaerimm, but considering Stardeep's revelation that nilshai are servants/allies of the aboleths, perhaps the phaerimm are somehow a part of this extended "family" too? For example, phaerimm and nilshai could both have been servitors (and even creations) of the aboleths during their empire, much as the Sarrukh had various servitor races.

Many aspects of Stardeep seem to be adapted from the non-FR Lords of Madness sourcebook, particularly the "ancient aboleth empire" and the Keepers of the Cerulean Sign, so if you decide to utilize other lore from that book maybe phaerimm and nilshai are creations of the same alien deity/Elder Evil. They could even be descendants of the Blood Queen, the Elder Evil who spawned the aboleths.

Lords of Madness also states that the nilshai are worshippers of Mak Thuum Ngatha, an entity of the Far Plane also venerated by tsochari and psurlons, so in your personal campaign you could tie in that place and/or those creatures with Stardeep's aboleth and nilshai-related shenanigans (for that matter you could also include shaboath, since those beings are creations of the aboleths).



I had a feeling they did , but wasn't sure,(Hazard of only reading novels I guess) but they felt somehow related to them.
nb_nmare Posted - 17 Nov 2007 : 15:23:11
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Also was not a big fan of the Nilshai. Big shapeless masses with tentacles, green rays, etc.....brought to mind a "stripped down base model" Phaerrim(sp?)


I hope you realise the Nilshai predate this novel? AFAIK they were first mentioned in the Unapproachable East sourcebook, and both they and the realm of Sildëyuir featured in the Last Mythal trilogy (specifically book 2, Farthest Reach).

You're right that they bear some similarities with the phaerimm, but considering Stardeep's revelation that nilshai are servants/allies of the aboleths, perhaps the phaerimm are somehow a part of this extended "family" too? For example, phaerimm and nilshai could both have been servitors (and even creations) of the aboleths during their empire, much as the Sarrukh had various servitor races.

Many aspects of Stardeep seem to be adapted from the non-FR Lords of Madness sourcebook, particularly the "ancient aboleth empire" and the Keepers of the Cerulean Sign, so if you decide to utilize other lore from that book maybe phaerimm and nilshai are creations of the same alien deity/Elder Evil. They could even be descendants of the Blood Queen, the Elder Evil who spawned the aboleths.

Lords of Madness also states that the nilshai are worshippers of Mak Thuum Ngatha, an entity of the Far Plane also venerated by tsochari and psurlons, so in your personal campaign you could tie in that place and/or those creatures with Stardeep's aboleth and nilshai-related shenanigans (for that matter you could also include shaboath, since those beings are creations of the aboleths).
The Red Walker Posted - 17 Nov 2007 : 00:34:58
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

quote:
Bruce you deserve a great big slap on the back and a pint if ever we meet for something you did not do in this book. Most author's would have taken Raidon's family sword and ran with it. You made it a simple good Daito. No flames, no special ability to cut through stone or undead. Nothing that would have made you job writing easier. Bravo. One uber-weapon is more than enough, I am glad you did not fill out your characters with magic weapons for crutches. Although the Gauntlets were a very cool and powerful tool for Gage, you did well to limit them early by flaming one of them!



Great points, there.



High praise indeed!! Thank you milady!

It was quite satisfying that with all the magical powers (Cynosure, Angul, Nis) That the fat of all of Faerun was decided by....

a plain old dagger in the back.

Small things can make a difference!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin Posted - 16 Nov 2007 : 02:14:22
quote:
Bruce you deserve a great big slap on the back and a pint if ever we meet for something you did not do in this book. Most author's would have taken Raidon's family sword and ran with it. You made it a simple good Daito. No flames, no special ability to cut through stone or undead. Nothing that would have made you job writing easier. Bravo. One uber-weapon is more than enough, I am glad you did not fill out your characters with magic weapons for crutches. Although the Gauntlets were a very cool and powerful tool for Gage, you did well to limit them early by flaming one of them!



Great points, there.
The Red Walker Posted - 15 Nov 2007 : 02:15:54
Just finished at lunch today. As a whole I really enjoyed the read. Nice pace, not to frantic, in no way to slow! I hate to sound like an echo chamber, but Cynosure did not work well for me at all. Way to omnipotent for my taste. Along with the seemingly limitless teleportation abilities, ability to split its conscious into so many parts while retaining full "powers", ability to shape the dungeons physical properties, he/she also has very powerful clerical healing abilities. It seemed as if Cynosure was actually the entirety of Stardeep. Which makes him seem way to powerful to comprehend. It left my mind reeling trying to figure out how many ultra powerful spells would have to be woven together to create him. I found it in my thinking to be impossible.
That said, Bruce did redeem Cynosure for me near the end when Telarian defeated his Guardian Statue above the throat. Something that
seemed unlikely due to Cynosure's Omnipotence in my mind's eye. It brought him down to a believable level for me that he needed the help of Gage to defeat the mad keeper.

I liked Gage and his perseverance very much. He was a well crafted character I would love to meet to the again.
Raidon (Though I kept thinking of the Monk Kane from The Sellswords series and Rayden from MK. I had this feeling he was going to score a fatality everytime he fought! ) was very likable as well, his quest for his family's honor gave him an insight into Kiril's relationship with her sword. He would not have told her to leave it if he been party what was going on with Kiril and Angul at the well. I would love to see his story continued after he helps Delphe reinstitute the safeguards of Stardeep.

I actually feel that Kiril taking hold of Angul to mean she has a new perspective and when she let Angulis go again, she let the darkness his loss caused in her to go with him. That darkness is what enslved her to the blade. With her soul mended I see her as able to able to deal with Angul instead of running from him to her liquor. I would love to see her and Gage help Raidon find his mother and figure out what is going on in Sildeyuir.

Also was not a big fan of the Nilshai. Big shapeless masses with tentacles, green rays, etc.....brought to mind a "stripped down base model" Phaerrim(sp?)

P.S.

Absolutely loved the Edgewarden....very disappointed he did not show up again.....What an interesting book indeed would one be that included him.

Bruce I would rate this as tie With Lady of Poison for my favorite of your novels! Overall I enjoy your characters and how they develop.

P.S.S.

Bruce you deserve a great big slap on the back and a pint if ever we meet for something you did not do in this book. Most author's would have taken Raidon's family sword and ran with it. You made it a simple good Daito. No flames, no special ability to cut through stone or undead. Nothing that would have made you job writing easier. Bravo. One uber-weapon is more than enough, I am glad you did not fill out your characters with magic weapons for crutches. Although the Gauntlets were a very cool and powerful tool for Gage, you did well to limit them early by flaming one of them!
The Hooded One Posted - 15 Nov 2007 : 01:39:41
Fair enough, Beezer. If I am wrong about your intentions, I apologize. I formed that opinion based on many of your comments on Amazon and Bob's boards over the years, and your words to Faraer in that latter place - - and it was, as I said, what I thought. So: sorry. I'll start over and take a fresh look at your reviews, henceforth.
For what it's worth, folks, Ed and Bob are good friends and think highly of each other's writing - - and have very different styles. Just as Bruce Cordell has said he was striving for, above. As Ed said back in 1986, the greater variety of dishes on the buffet, the better for all.
love,
THO
P.S. I will probably fall silent tomorrow and Friday (Ed's father's funeral).
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin Posted - 14 Nov 2007 : 16:16:08
I'm enjoying the book too for its characters, as well as it's solid (if somewhat predictable) storyline. Is it "too sci/fi" for the Realms? I'd say yes--at times, (especially the parts with Cynosure) I feel like I'm reading a spacey Star Trek-type novel. But for me, the parts of the book that I do enjoy overcome that.
The Red Walker Posted - 14 Nov 2007 : 12:15:54
I am really enjoying this book because it is different.
BruceCordell Posted - 14 Nov 2007 : 07:05:43
Sorry folks, I did not intend to spark off a flame war. I was just coming by to say thank you for the nice comments.

BeezerMN, I apologize for characterizing you as my 'perennial critic.' I didn't realize you posted here and would thus of course defend your review. You obviously have a certain taste in Realms fiction. I have purposefully and consciously chosen to write Stardeep (and Darkvision for that matter) in a style that transgresses Realms norms because said style appeals to my sense of pace and energy. I shouldn't be so surprised, and yes, initially upset, that some people find that transgression wrenching rather than transformative. We each have our own sense of good and bad fiction, and you have every right to slam Stardeep with the lowest possible rating. While that still seems slightly harsh to me, I don't want to foster an antagonistic relationship with you or any Realms fan. So... Peace?
laethyn Posted - 14 Nov 2007 : 06:12:54
For what it's worth, if I felt that Beezer had some sort of agenda, I would remove his Admin status from Bob Salvatore's Messageboard.

Also, form your own opinions regarding this, but here is a full list of his Realms novel reviews

quote:
Shadowbred - 5/5
The Orc King - 5/5
Shadowbred - 5/5
Ghostwalker - 5/5
Shadowstorm - 5/5

Depths of Madness - 4/5
Sacrifice of the Widow - 4/5
Road of the Patriarch - 4/5
Final Gate - 4/5
Midnight's Mask - 4/5
Master of Chains - 4/5
Promise of the Witch King - 4/5

Swords of Dragonfire - 3/5
The Howling Delve - 3/5
The Gossamer Plain - 3/5
Unclean - 3/5
Frostfell - 3/5
Lies of Light - 3/5
Vanity's Brood - 3/5
Whisper of Waves - 3/5

Storm of the Dead - 2/5
Scream of Stone - 2/5
Darkvision - 2/5
Swords of Eveningstar - 2/5
Bloodwalk - 2/5
Blackstaff - 2/5
Bladesinger - 2/5
The Ruin - 2/5
Son of Thunder - 2/5
Queen of Depths - 2/5

Stardeep - 1/5



As for Stardeep. Personally, I felt it was an average Realms novel. I've certainly read worse, and certainly read better. I don't agree entirely with Beezer's rating (and I will bring him around to be a Greenwood lover if it kills me!), but I would certainly not go so far as stating it was part of some sort of agenda.
BeezerMN Posted - 14 Nov 2007 : 05:08:13
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

(Myself, I think Beezer, who is or was a moderator on Bob Salvatore's boards, has this personal mission to ensure that Bob, and only Bob, is seen as the fictional voice of the Realms, and everyone else has to be demolished. Repeatedly.)




I take some offense to that Hooded one.

Lets look at some of my recent Realms reviews.

The Orc King 4 out of 5

Shadowstorm 5 out of 5
Depths of Madness 4 out of 5
Ghostwalker 5 out of 5
Sacrifice of the Widow 4 out of 5
Shadowbred 5 out of 5

Hardly 'demolishing' everyone else.

I do not review books to 'up' an authors standing, nor do I review them to 'knock' an author. I always write my honest opinion of the books I read. I have never 'kissed up' to an author to make them feel better about their book. If I like it I say so and if I don't then I say so.

In fact, Ed's latest book I gave 3 out of 5 to. Is a 3 out of 5 bashing a book?

I just did not like Stardeep at all. If that makes Mr. Cordell upset, I apologize. However, if I was an author I would want to know what readers really think about my books. I think I did a decent job of explaining why I didn't like it.

To me the book felt really sci-fi and that is not what I have come to expect from a Forgotten Realms novel. It's too 'out there'.

If you want to bash my review, you have every right to do so. But, please, do not bash my intentions. Because you are off base.
The Hooded One Posted - 14 Nov 2007 : 04:52:47
Heh. Bruce, Beezer always trashes Ed Greenwood's books, too, so at least you're in good company. (Myself, I think Beezer, who is or was a moderator on Bob Salvatore's boards, has this personal mission to ensure that Bob, and only Bob, is seen as the fictional voice of the Realms, and everyone else has to be demolished. Repeatedly.)
If it makes you feel any better, I liked Stardeep, and I know Ed did, too (if he hasn't told you yet, it's probably because his father's death has temporarily thrown him for a loop).
love,
THO
BruceCordell Posted - 14 Nov 2007 : 04:40:16
Wow, glad most of you enjoyed the book! I am especially glad that, while initially suspicious of Cynosure the sentient idol-warden of Stardeep, many of you ended up liking the story as a whole.

Your comments were especially nice to read after having just gone to Amazon to find that my perennial critic "BeezerMN" had given me a 1 out of 5 stars. So, really, thanks :-)
The Wanderer Posted - 10 Nov 2007 : 23:11:20
I recently finished this book and wanted to come by and say that I had enjoyed it very much. Having recently gone through my old Lovecraft books, I was pleasantly surprised to find myself reading something almost...residing in the same mythos. (In fact, if Bruce happens to swing by, would he mind saying whether he was inspired by such stories?). Made me want to go out and get the "Lords of Madness" book just to learn more about Aboleths and the like. The addition of Cynosure, a psyonic construct, was just icing on the cake for me. Hope to see many more stories like this.

Spoilers!!!

I was sad to see though that Kiril remains a slave to her former lover's memory. If anyone needed "release" in this story, it was her. I was actually hoping Gage might be the person to help her move on. Then again, given my previous allusion to Lovecraft, it seems fitting.
Ranak Posted - 07 Nov 2007 : 02:47:26
quote:
Originally posted by Mkhaiwati
I also began to wonder which character will Bruce Cordell write about next. He has a trend of writing about a minor character from his previous book as the main character of his next book. It could be either Gage or Raidon. Probably Raidon as he searches for his mother and runs into the other sorcerer brother, though a story about Gage and his demonic friend could also be intriguing.



Also, someone will have to become a Keeper to replace Telerian. I hope it is not Raidon, I think he deserves a story of his own. If not a book, then perhaps a short story in a Realms anthology.

The Demon that tried to claim Gage was probably not destroyed permanently, like Ertu I think we will see him again.

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