| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 21:59:03
I thought that "the Utter East" was a designation for Shou Lung and Wa, but I just saw the map of that name in the Candlekeep map room and the only familiar thing about it was "Edenvale," which has been spoken of recently on Brian R. James's scroll.
Where exactly is "the Uttermost East[/i] in relation to the more familiar landmasses of which we know? Is it the western section of that small continent southeast of Shou Lung ("Australia" by comparison)?
The map looks like TSR work. Was there a module or set which dealt with this area?
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| 28 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 21 Nov 2007 : 22:27:24
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
MT, any clue as to when you will have the final document ready? 
Realistically? By February, hopefully. We are still getting input from everyone over at WotC, and some really good ideas continue to be synthesized into the equation.
Hopefully I will have an updated 'Dramatis Personae' up soon, at the very least, which should include all the known (and some secret) gods for this region.
Reason for the delay:
I'm trying to get a working map of Kara-Tur done by Christmas, which is what I had promised way back in the spring. It's becoming a bit of a bear, considering that many the map sources are spread throughout the modules. I should at least have the major section done (the middle) by then, so it will be my holiday present to everyone.
Oh... and the finished version will appear exclusively at CK. 
Thanks for the update! |
| Markustay |
Posted - 21 Nov 2007 : 22:18:49
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
MT, any clue as to when you will have the final document ready?
Realistically? By February, hopefully. We are still getting input from everyone over at WotC, and some really good ideas continue to be synthesized into the equation.
Hopefully I will have an updated 'Dramatis Personae' up soon, at the very least, which should include all the known (and some secret) gods for this region.
Reason for the delay:
I'm trying to get a working map of Kara-Tur done by Christmas, which is what I had promised way back in the spring. It's becoming a bit of a bear, considering that many the map sources are spread throughout the modules. I should at least have the major section done (the middle) by then, so it will be my holiday present to everyone.
Oh... and the finished version will appear exclusively at CK. |
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 19 Nov 2007 : 19:49:11
*sigh* Gotta read those Double Diamonds, I guess....
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| Hawkins |
Posted - 19 Nov 2007 : 18:34:09
MT, any clue as to when you will have the final document ready? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 17 Nov 2007 : 23:50:56
If you check the Ue thread over at WotC, we've come to the conclusion that there is a 'lost' Batrachi Civilization in the region between the Nemoree islands and the coast of the Ue. Thats why I placed two of the ancient Batrachi Gates there in my CK Compendium article.
Since the civilization was destroyed when most of it sank to create the Shining Sea, there would be a great many ruins beneath the waves in that region... and may have something to do with why the Doganers have 'gills', at least some of them anyway.
What, you didn't know they had gills? You need to read the DD series then. 
The fact that 'something' has been breeding with Doeganrs means that in all likelyhood, the ruins aren't as 'abandoned' as everyone believes.
BTW, most of that is non-canon, including the Gills... but it WAS in the novel.
Oh, and the B&M game had a 'Realm of Tides', which ties in nicely to some ancient Kingdom under the sea.
Ergo, "Antideluvian" could very well refer to the time of the Sundering in this regard, which 'washed awy' the old civilization in the area. |
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 15 Nov 2007 : 21:29:52
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
No, in the Realms the term is not meant to describe the period of time before a great flood. The term is used in the novel Faces of Deception and simply describes a period of chaos in the ancient past when fiends and other horrors were particularly prevalent. It's a fairly common term in horror literature for instance. 
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
was there an actual lethal flood in the old timey-East (perhaps the result of some Elven High Magic?) which yielded those "antediluvian" undead, or was the word used figuratively?
Darn. I may make one up, anyway. I rather like the thought of undead from a totally obliterated civilization. Maybe one can be slipped into FR 4.5, due out in 2011.
Thanks Brian, and thanks to you, too, Markustay. 
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| Blueblade |
Posted - 15 Nov 2007 : 15:26:15
Aha! Anyone going to ask Ed?
Or does Rob King, who edited the DD books, post here at the Keep?
BB |
| The Sage |
Posted - 15 Nov 2007 : 15:01:19
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Sage - we may have finally found the missing '5th' Kingdom, but it's in the non-can DD series (book 4, I believe). The refrence is to the "Mead Hall of the Northmen" located in the NW Sempadan Jungle - strange place to find some 'Vikings'. 
Curious.
Check your PMs.
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| Markustay |
Posted - 15 Nov 2007 : 02:07:03
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
Thank you all very much! The map at Wizards was particularly useful. Is the map in the map room here from FR16?
No, the map here was done by myself, and contains many places from the non-canon Double-Diamond novels and the Blood & Magic game. The one that was posted here originally was at least 90% canon, but Alaundo posted the latest one from my site, which includes several locales made up for our Utter East Campaign thread (most notably the Bastion of Truth - a temple/fortress of Anu). We've referenced MANy obscure sources, including Desert of Desolation (for Anu) and lots of material from The Horde setting, as well as the modules that went with that setting (like the Padhran faith being started by a Prince from Ulgarth 3000 years ago!)
I will have to E-Mail Aluando an update for the text - the Kingdom of Sraggadha (Loxo) is non-canon as well. Perhaps we could post both versions - canon and non.
I was planning on dropping him a line anyway, because I've updated all the maps in that area, including the Shining Lands and the Endless wastes (higher resolutions and corrected locations). A Tabot WIP is up on my site as well... hopefully I'll have the completed version done by tonight and I'll be able to mail that off to Alundo as well.
BTW, Thommar IS canon, but it's location on that map was "nearest I could figure" going by the text. Th Ue thread has some (non-canon) history for the place to explain it's existance and lack of placement on current maps (it's been absorbed by Ulgarth and Durpar).
Sage - we may have finally found the missing '5th' Kingdom, but it's in the non-can DD series (book 4, I believe). The refrence is to the "Mead Hall of the Northmen" located in the NW Sempadan Jungle - strange place to find some 'Vikings'.
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| Brian R. James |
Posted - 15 Nov 2007 : 01:14:41
No, in the Realms the term is not meant to describe the period of time before a great flood. The term is used in the novel Faces of Deception and simply describes a period of chaos in the ancient past when fiends and other horrors were particularly prevalent. It's a fairly common term in horror literature for instance.
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
was there an actual lethal flood in the old timey-East (perhaps the result of some Elven High Magic?) which yielded those "antediluvian" undead, or was the word used figuratively?
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| Xysma |
Posted - 14 Nov 2007 : 05:46:10
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
(Judging by the white masks in the illustration on that page, it appears that the artist thought of the "Utter East" as being "Oriental" and not Celtic-Norse.)
If I am not mistaken it is actually both. The desecendents of the Ffolk being the Celtic-Norse influence, while the natives that are still in the area are "Oriental". |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 13 Nov 2007 : 23:34:37
Guys, thanks for giving your opinions about the novel--from what you said, it does sound like it warrants some amount of disgust. |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 13 Nov 2007 : 22:34:15
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I wasn't overly enjoying it as I was reading it, and then I got to the end. With next to no real resolution, it was like the story had no point. I felt like I'd wasted the time getting there.
That was my overall feel for the entire Lost Empires mini-series. After I read them all I ended up selling them to a used book store. Since reading MT's Utter East thread on the WotC forums, I picked up Faces of Deception (buying it used this time), but I have not had time to read it again.
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
Yes, I do. D'oh!
Over the weekend I was permitted an opportunity for my brain to re-engage with my fingers, and realized that there's a whole page in the Grand Chronology about the "Scouring of the Utter East" (or some such thing). Rather than asking on Mr. James's scroll, I'll ask here, since we seem to have a fairly well-focused discussion: was there an actual lethal flood in the old timey-East (perhaps the result of some Elven High Magic?) which yielded those "antediluvian" undead, or was the word used figuratively? Regardless, I think the concept of real antediluvian undead is worth exploring in a campaign, perhaps Jamdaathan undead arising to avenge themselves on Elves (or Utter Easterners doing the same). But, "What do I know?"
(Judging by the white masks in the illustration on that page, it appears that the artist thought of the "Utter East" as being "Oriental" and not Celtic-Norse.)
Don't view all of the pictures from the GHotR with that much creditability, according to Brian they used their budget making sure that we got new maps, and evidently most (or all) of the pictures are reused from older WotC products, and even then there was some sort of mix up and some that don't even resemble the event they are supposed to be depicting. |
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 13 Nov 2007 : 20:59:53
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
I have a question about the Yak Men, though: don't some of them live on the northern fringes of Shou Lung and the Hordelands?
You mean the yikaria, or yak-men, of Zakhara. They were referenced in DRAGON #241 -- "Campaign Classics: The Roof of the World" [Wolfgang Baur].
Yes, I do. D'oh!
Over the weekend I was permitted an opportunity for my brain to re-engage with my fingers, and realized that there's a whole page in the Grand Chronology about the "Scouring of the Utter East" (or some such thing). Rather than asking on Mr. James's scroll, I'll ask here, since we seem to have a fairly well-focused discussion: was there an actual lethal flood in the old timey-East (perhaps the result of some Elven High Magic?) which yielded those "antediluvian" undead, or was the word used figuratively? Regardless, I think the concept of real antediluvian undead is worth exploring in a campaign, perhaps Jamdaathan undead arising to avenge themselves on Elves (or Utter Easterners doing the same). But, "What do I know?"
(Judging by the white masks in the illustration on that page, it appears that the artist thought of the "Utter East" as being "Oriental" and not Celtic-Norse.)
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Nov 2007 : 20:57:45
I wasn't overly enjoying it as I was reading it, and then I got to the end. With next to no real resolution, it was like the story had no point. I felt like I'd wasted the time getting there. |
| Xysma |
Posted - 11 Nov 2007 : 07:12:12
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I haven't read the novel in question, so I'm also curious as to why Wooly (and others?) were disgusted with the novel.
I actually loved Faces of Deception right up until the end, then I was disgusted. To sum my feelings up without revealing too much, it just ends. If not for the ads at the end of the book, I would've thought I was missing pages. |
| Ranak |
Posted - 11 Nov 2007 : 03:16:20
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I haven't read the novel in question, so I'm also curious as to why Wooly (and others?) were disgusted with the novel.
Without spoiling too much, let's just say it has a somewhat sad ending - It ends with his journey incomplete, though I think the author may have been trying to make a point about life being a journey, or a quest, complete with failures and triumphs. There may also be a lesson about the cold worthlessness of beauty when it is coveted.
I liked it for its novelty and do not think it needs a sequel (nor would I want one, something isn't novel or new if you do it twice), but I am in an extreme minority I think. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 11 Nov 2007 : 00:27:25
I haven't read the novel in question, so I'm also curious as to why Wooly (and others?) were disgusted with the novel. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 10 Nov 2007 : 22:55:13
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
I have a question about the Yak Men, though: don't some of them live on the northern fringes of Shou Lung and the Hordelands?
You mean the yikaria, or yak-men, of Zakhara. They were referenced in DRAGON #241 -- "Campaign Classics: The Roof of the World" [Wolfgang Baur].
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| Hawkins |
Posted - 10 Nov 2007 : 19:07:24
The first two Double Diamond books are at my local used book store, but I am worried about being able to get the others if I start reading them. |
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 10 Nov 2007 : 18:37:02
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ranak
Surprisingly, the blood forges and bloodforge war from the video game were mentioned both in Faces of Deception (p14) and in an entry in GHoTR. So, despite not using a single DnD rule, the game is partially canonized. I just recently read Faces of Deception, it was an interesting book to be sure. Very atypical, I enjoyed it, but I think a lot of readers truly disliked this book, especially the ending.
I was one of them. I know a lot of people rave about the book and want a sequel, but I was disgusted when I finished reading it.
Thank you all very much! The map at Wizards was particularly useful. Is the map in the map room here from FR16?
I have wanted to read Faces of Deception for some time, but I find it disappointing that either Sune is fickle with her favors to her priests, or else they have an unusually strong tendency to be unable to see their own "inner beauty," and have nervous breakdowns when they cease to be physically beautiful (cf. Adon). Wooly, dare I ask why it disgusted you? 
As for the Double Diamond books, I have seen them raved over by more senior scribes, but I don't think I've ever seen one in the flesh ... er ... paper. It's good to know in advance that they are only "semi-canon."
I have a question about the Yak Men, though: don't some of them live on the northern fringes of Shou Lung and the Hordelands? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Nov 2007 : 14:57:13
quote:
Originally posted by Ranak
Surprisingly, the blood forges and bloodforge war from the video game were mentioned both in Faces of Deception (p14) and in an entry in GHoTR. So, despite not using a single DnD rule, the game is partially canonized. I just recently read Faces of Deception, it was an interesting book to be sure. Very atypical, I enjoyed it, but I think a lot of readers truly disliked this book, especially the ending.
I was one of them. I know a lot of people rave about the book and want a sequel, but I was disgusted when I finished reading it. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 10 Nov 2007 : 07:38:51
The blood forges were also referenced in the "Darkly, Through a Glass of Ale" story in Realms of Mystery.
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| Ranak |
Posted - 10 Nov 2007 : 05:57:31
Surprisingly, the blood forges and bloodforge war from the video game were mentioned both in Faces of Deception (p14) and in an entry in GHoTR. So, despite not using a single DnD rule, the game is partially canonized. I just recently read Faces of Deception, it was an interesting book to be sure. Very atypical, I enjoyed it, but I think a lot of readers truly disliked this book, especially the ending. |
| Xysma |
Posted - 09 Nov 2007 : 02:54:09
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
And here's a little from Tom Costa, collated from both WotC and Candlekeep -
You could maybe through some Yak Men in (can't remember which book they were updated in) too.
In case you need it, the Yak Folk are in MMII |
| The Sage |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 22:51:58
And here's a little from Tom Costa, collated from both WotC and Candlekeep -
"The Utter East appeared in the non-canon Double Diamond series of mini-novels and the canon Faces of Deception novel (who's main characters were given 2E stats in Dragon sometime back).
The Kingdoms lie just south of Ulgarth (see FR16 Shining South and the 3E Shining South) and north of Zakhara (the Al-Qadim setting).
Essentially, the natives have a mythical (Asian) Indian culture that was conquered by a mixed group of Northmen and Ffolk arcane casters. The Five Kingdoms fell to warring with one another using these giant magical gates called Blood Forges that brought in a lot of fiends.
To recreate it, I'd start with the 3E Oriental Adventures web enhancement Mahasarpa."
and -
"Further south and off the 3E map, the Utter East is populated by an Asian Indian-esque culture dominated by emigrated Northmen and Ffolk from the Moonshaes."
and -
"Faces of Deception began in Erlkazar and traveled to the Utter East, which is located just north of Zakhara in that wedge of land that seperates Faerun, Zakhara, and Kara Tur. The Utter East, however, was on the W portion of that bit of land and clearly more influenced by Faerun than the other contintinents. It most definitely did not end up in Kara Tur."
and -
"The Kingdoms lie just south of Ulgarth (see FR16 Shining South and the 3E Shining South) and north of Zakhara (the Al-Qadim setting).
Essentially, the natives have a mythical (Asian) Indian culture that was conquered by a mixed group of Northmen and Ffolk arcane casters. The Five Kingdoms fell to warring with one another using these giant magical gates called Blood Forges that brought in a lot of fiends.
To recreate it, I'd start with the 3E Oriental Adventures web enhancement Mahasarpa."
and -
"You should do a search on these boards or the WotC boards. There have been lengthy discussions on the Utter East in the past.
The Utter East is the region between Zakhara and Faerun's Ulgarth, also known as the Five Kingdoms. The Five Kingdoms' natives are the Mar, a pseudo-Asian Indian-like people (which makes sense because the pseudo-Indians in Kara Tur are on the other side of the mountains). They were conquered by a mix of Northmen and Ffolk from the Moonshaes a long time ago. These conquers quickly fell to warring with one another's kingdoms, dragging in evil outsiders to do their bidding through giant portals they lost some control over.
The books appear in the apocryphal (that is not canon) Double Diamond saga of novels and Faces of Deception (which is canon and the main characters of which got some 2E treatment in Dragon Magazine way back). They also were the setting for an old video game, something with Blood in the title, which really had no Realmslore at all and is insiginficant ot the discussion.
As for what I would do. I would take the Mahasarpa web enhancement for the 3E Oriental Adventures and then talk on the invaders and the fiend engine/portals. You could maybe through some Yak Men in (can't remember which book they were updated in) too.
This region is not discussed in Shining South, though Ulgarth gets a fair amount of attention in the 2E Shining South and updating in the 3.5E Shining South."
...
Also, I'll direct you to the "Utter East Campaign & Map" thread over at WotC for some worthwhile fan-based speculation on the region.
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| Hawkins |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 22:51:32
MarkusTay is developing a eBook on it here with a couple of other guys on the D&D forums. Hopefully it will be done soon. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 22:43:24
The Utter East is further SE of Ulgarth and seperates the rest of the Realms and Ulgarth from Zakhara/Al-Qadim.
The Five Kingdoms are Parsanic, Eldrinpar [Doegan], Konigheim, and Edenvale. The fifth kingdom, as I recall, is the mystical kingdom from the novels and thus not pictured on the map. The only places to discuss the Utter East were Faces of the Deception and the "Double Diamond" saga. There was an old video game, Blood & Magic, that was ostensibly set in the Utter East, but as we've learned, aside from having the D&D brand on it, had nothing recognizably D&D or FR about it.
Additionally, the 1e FR boxed set has some minor references. As does the The Shining South [FR16].
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