| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 11 Aug 2007 : 22:34:31
Good fellow scribes,
before I dig through the books on my shelf, does anyone recall where to find rules on how to knock out a foe (or friend) without reducing him to 0 hit points first!?
You know, the easy way with a simple hit of a sap or the hilt of a dagger or even a bottle of rum........ |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 27 Oct 2007 : 23:07:02
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Found rules on strangulation in a past Dragon magazine last night... these could be adapted to knock outs, but personally, and because I don't think many people in real life would know how to knock someone out "safely", I believe the only rules on knockout should be a high level rogue with a sap, sneak attacking for subdual... if it's enough to render unconscious, there... you're knocked out.
Hello PDK and thanks for your participation! could you name the Dragon issue you found the rules in? I own quite a few myself andmight have it at home as well. I would be interested in those rules..........
Ergdusch |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 26 Oct 2007 : 18:10:30
Found rules on strangulation in a past Dragon magazine last night... these could be adapted to knock outs, but personally, and because I don't think many people in real life would know how to knock someone out "safely", I believe the only rules on knockout should be a high level rogue with a sap, sneak attacking for subdual... if it's enough to render unconscious, there... you're knocked out. |
| Aravine |
Posted - 26 Oct 2007 : 15:42:02
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot
BTW, just for reference, a quarterstaff is a lethal damage weapon. A sap (or a bag of nickels) is a "subdual damage only" weapon.
read the book wrong, sorry |
| Aravine |
Posted - 26 Oct 2007 : 14:56:00
you could also take the nonlethal substitution feat(complete arcane)if you're a spellcaster)) |
| Lady Fellshot |
Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 06:21:58
Actually it is easier to knock someone out than the rules mess which was proposed. If there is a rogue type character, you equip them with a sap. If a sap is not available, then use a bag of nickels or marbles. Have the rogue in question specificly state what part of the anataomy they are trying to hit with the sap. Have them roll their sneak attack and damage. If they hit and depending on where on the anatomy they are hitting (namely the head), add another d6 (or two). This is what I use as a house rule for called shots and it is only a suggestion.
You can impose whatever roll penalties or other factors you want, but this seems like the simplest way put forward so far. Although I think this is what Wooly was suggesting earlier :-P
BTW, just for reference, a quarterstaff is a lethal damage weapon. A sap (or a bag of nickels) is a "subdual damage only" weapon.
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| scererar |
Posted - 10 Oct 2007 : 03:11:06
hit em real hard  |
| Aravine |
Posted - 09 Oct 2007 : 15:30:09
is ther any restrictions on doing a coup de grace with a non-lethal weapon(quarterstaff)? couldn't you knock someone out with that( if they didn't save) one hit? |
| Ugly is the new black |
Posted - 29 Sep 2007 : 03:26:16
quote:
Originally posted by Brynweir
Most of you know that I have been away from FR for a while, but I'm really showing my ignorance - What is BAB?
The first time I saw it used was in Iron Heroes, I think. So the term hasn't been in circulation for a real long time. It stands for Base Attack Bonus.
love,
nathan. |
| Brynweir |
Posted - 28 Sep 2007 : 23:59:20
Most of you know that I have been away from FR for a while, but I'm really showing my ignorance - What is BAB? |
| Tacitus |
Posted - 28 Sep 2007 : 23:10:18
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
Sounds all very disappointing. So knocking out e.g. a 4th-lvl cleric with 25hp would not work unless you aktually would do 25 non-lethal dmg with the first attack...? Mmh - that would leave me with creating my own rule if I want to allow this kind of trick without magic (or poison).
Thanks for your help so far. If you come up with any ideason how such a rule might look like -let me know. Thanks again,
Ergdusch
I' d still recommend my idea of a non-lethal coup de grace. A normal coup de grace forces the target to make a FORT save versus 10 + damage dealt or die. A "non-lethal" equivalent might require the same saving throw, only that you'd go unconscious rather than die. This would much easier than trying to deal non-lethal damage equal to the target's HP total in one attack. |
| Ugly is the new black |
Posted - 26 Sep 2007 : 06:56:12
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Why not modify those Shock rules a bit? Say, the damage taken in a single attack has to be equal to or greater than 20% of the character's full HP, plus their Constitution modifier.
You might have to playtest it a bit in order to get results that you're happy with, but that definitely sounds reasonable to me. If you end up implementing it into your game, let me know how it goes.
love,
nathan. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Sep 2007 : 23:23:54
Why not modify those Shock rules a bit? Say, the damage taken in a single attack has to be equal to or greater than 20% of the character's full HP, plus their Constitution modifier. |
| Wenin |
Posted - 25 Sep 2007 : 23:07:48
That seems more complex than the other idea.
My character that does 1d8+13 dmg would also be knocking anyone out everytime he hit them.
|
| Ugly is the new black |
Posted - 25 Sep 2007 : 11:26:04
quote:
Originally posted by Halidan
The easiest way might be to create a feat that somewhat copies the assassin's ability. The pre-requist would be the ability to do sneak attack damage, and perhaps a minimum BAB. Rather than allowing the kill option, the feat only allows you to knock the victim unconcious with an unsucessful save.
That's just too complicated to be effective. Ergdusch, the easiest solution would be for you to add Shock Value to your game. It's a concept that's found in the Game of Thrones RPG presented by Guardians of Order. Here's how it works:
Shock Value.
A character's Shock Value is equal to his or her Constitution Score divided by 2 (round down, minimum of 1). If a character suffers an amount of damage in a single attack greater than his or her Shock Value, there is a danger that the character will be stunned.
Shock.
If a character suffers more damage from a single attack than his or her Shock Value, he or she must make a Fortitude Save vs. a DC of 12 +1 per point of damage inflicted above the character's Shock Value (round down). If the check fails, the character is stunned and will collapse. The character will also let go of anything he or she is holding. The attack does not have to break the skin.
A character's incapacitation will last for a number of rounds equal to the amout by which the Save was failed. An incapacitated character is effectively out of action, either knocked out or awake but immobilized by pain or shock. He or she may not take any offensive, defensive, or non-combat actions. The duration of incapacitation from multiple failed Saves from several injuries in a short period of time is cumulative.
Shock Recovery (Optional).
Normally, characters only recover from shock after a number of rounds equal to the amount by which they failed their Fortitude Save. GMs may wish to give characters a chance to recover every round, however. In this case, during the character's Initiative, he or she should roll a Fortitude Save. On the first round the DC is 20, and this lowers by 1 (19, 18, etc) every round until the character recovers, either by making the Save or after the required number of rounds have passed. The character cannot take a standard or full-round action on the round he or she recovers, but the character may take a move action (or simply play dead). During his or her next Initiative, the character can act normally.
Anyway, I hope that helps.
[edit] By the way, it's worth noting that the Game of Thrones RPG is very different from D&D; it is a game where combat is grim and gritty, where characters recieve very few hit points per level; armour provides damage reduction rather than armour class (easier to hit, harder to deal damage); and the coup de grace technique was removed in favour of the ability to instantly slay helpless opponents as a standard action. Essentially what I'm saying is that you may have to adjust the way Shock Value functions in order for it to be an effective device in your D&D game, especially considering how hard monsters hit at later levels. If not, you may find that it's simply too easy to knock your PCs out during combat.
love,
nathan. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Aug 2007 : 00:12:03
quote:
Originally posted by Wenin
It should take some sacrifice for a character to know how to knock someone out. It isn't something someone automatically knows, despite what movies show. =)
I disagree. It doesn't take a lot of skill or knowledge to clunk someone over the head. That's why I think a simple mechanic, like a high attack roll, is the way to go. |
| Wenin |
Posted - 13 Aug 2007 : 22:51:48
It should take some sacrifice for a character to know how to knock someone out. It isn't something someone automatically knows, despite what movies show. =)
Make it like one of those Skill Tricks from the Complete Scoundrel. It costs 2 skill points to learn how to do this, and there is a requirement of +1 BAB (or more). Maybe even a skill requirement of heal.
This would also make it so they can only knock one person out per scene. Add in a stipulation that the victim must be flat-footed.
The Fort DC to stay up is 10+Dmg dealt |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 13 Aug 2007 : 22:26:17
Or precision damage with a subdual attack (i.e. sneak attack, sudden strike or skirmish). Just to be sure use a knock out poison. Works like a charm for a couple of extra coins. |
| Delzounblood |
Posted - 13 Aug 2007 : 22:07:02
wasn't this detailed on the Comp Fighters hand book or the comp Thiefs handbook in 2e?
Delz |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Aug 2007 : 17:25:43
quote:
Originally posted by Halidan
The easiest way might be to create a feat that somewhat copies the assassin's ability. The pre-requist would be the ability to do sneak attack damage, and perhaps a minimum BAB. Rather than allowing the kill option, the feat only allows you to knock the victim unconcious with an unsucessful save.
I'd not go for a feat unless this was something that was going to happen on a regular basis. Otherwise, it's a waste of a feat.
Me, I'd do it something like a called shot in 2E. Make it a reasonably tough attack roll to successfully attack the right spot while doing nonlethal damage, and put a damage threshold on there -- say, less than 5 points of damage annoys the target, 5-9 points dazes them for a minute or two, and 10+ points knocks them unconcious. |
| Halidan |
Posted - 13 Aug 2007 : 14:50:33
The easiest way might be to create a feat that somewhat copies the assassin's ability. The pre-requist would be the ability to do sneak attack damage, and perhaps a minimum BAB. Rather than allowing the kill option, the feat only allows you to knock the victim unconcious with an unsucessful save. |
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 12 Aug 2007 : 08:22:16
quote:
Originally posted by Brenigin
I'd make a house rule for it, with one important qualifier: if it can be done BY the PCs, it should be able to be done TO the PCs as well.
Well, Brenigin - that is actually a given! BTW, I intent to use it against the PCs, but of course they would be able to pull it off as well.
I will try to come up with a house rule, but have to see if this would not leave the special ability of the assassin rather useless as everyone could suddenly pull off a similar "trick".
Thanks for your opinion, everyone! |
| Brenigin |
Posted - 12 Aug 2007 : 02:36:44
I'd make a house rule for it, with one important qualifier: if it can be done BY the PCs, it should be able to be done TO the PCs as well. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 12 Aug 2007 : 00:45:43
Hmm, that would have to be at least character level 6, perhaps not a problem for a party level average of 4, but clearly a level 4 Cleric might fail a save.
quote:
If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin’s choice). While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy. If the victim of such an attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the assassin’s class level + the assassin’s Int modifier) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the assassin. If the victim’s saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack.
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| Victor_ograygor |
Posted - 12 Aug 2007 : 00:39:19
Yes it can
If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin’s choice) |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 12 Aug 2007 : 00:33:10
Can the assassin's death attack render someone unconscious instead of dead? if so, there's your solution... assassins! |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 12 Aug 2007 : 00:09:53
25 hit points, might not be that hard.
Using a surprise round where Cleric is flatfooted, perferible not wearing armor as well, 3 or four NPCs with good stats have a good chance to inflict 25 points of damage before the Cleric can react. Clearly most kidmappings occur when traget is not with friends so surrounding should not be hard. |
| Victor_ograygor |
Posted - 12 Aug 2007 : 00:05:57
A magege with the feat Nonlethal Substitution can deal Dealing Nonlethal Damage with his spells
Nonlethal Substitution [Metamagic] You can modify an energy spell to deal nonlethal damage. Prerequisites: Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks, any metamagic feat |
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 11 Aug 2007 : 23:50:49
Sounds all very disappointing. So knocking out e.g. a 4th-lvl cleric with 25hp would not work unless you aktually would do 25 non-lethal dmg with the first attack...? Mmh - that would leave me with creating my own rule if I want to allow this kind of trick without magic (or poison).
Thanks for your help so far. If you come up with any ideason how such a rule might look like -let me know. Thanks again,
Ergdusch |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 11 Aug 2007 : 23:45:56
Well an Epic +40 sap might work, the 3X does not have called shots as far as I know. Of course getting a Critical could increase damage of either kind. All in all it depends how powerful the rarget is. As mention spell can work in one round, but even that is not assured if traget is high level.
Finding someone sleeping could allow a knockout in my game with one blow prehaps with a DC check. |
| Tacitus |
Posted - 11 Aug 2007 : 23:27:51
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
Like when to kindnap somebody it would not really help to have to bash him up for several rounds allowing him to cry for help.......... just one attack, one hit and than the sweet embrace of unconciousness.
Any idea?
I don't think there are any way do that in 3.5 E (without using magic). However, you could modify the Coup de Grace rules to suit your purpose:
quote:
Coup de Grace
As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.
You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.
Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.
You can’t deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to "find" the creature once you’ve determined what square it’s in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).
Just like it's possible for a combatant to "pull" his blow so that he inflicts subdual damage, you could rule that it's possible to inflict a nonlethal coup de grace on an unwitting target (which would then cause unconsciousness rather than death.) |
