| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 18 May 2007 : 02:45:28
How do you think this would work
I choose Lesser Aasimar as my race (PGTF)
Lesser Aasimars are basicly the same as Aasimars but they can be affected by spells that effect humanoids (Such as charm and Hold person) and Outsiders (such as Banishment)
Having chosen my race I then choose the Celestial attended birth region (CoV)and select the Otherworldly Regional feat at 1st level (PGTF)
Otherworldly basicly turns you into a Native outsider, gives you Dark vision 60 feet and +2 to Diplomacy
Now would the feat undo the downside of the Lesser outsider racial class?
Mod Edit: Moved to a more appropriate shelf
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Artemel |
Posted - 14 Aug 2008 : 17:06:53
Because lesser tiefling isn't a pure outsider (native). He's actually affected by spells that target Humanoids and Outsiders. So, instead of being less vulnerable, he is more vulnerable. Otherworldy fixes him back to normal tiefling strength.
For my 2 coppers... Otherworldy is very powerful and easily abusable, but I still allow it as a DM. The power I can handle, and the abuse is easier for me to spot than some other combinations. ^.^
@Bayar: Champions of Valor added a background that included otherworldy as a choice and was not as restrictive as PgtF. And since CoV came out over a year after PgtF... I suppose it would be logical to accept CoV as the overriding book for rulings. |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 13 Aug 2008 : 19:16:25
quote:
Originally posted by bayar
I just registered to add the following: You cant take the Otherworldly feat unless you are a Human, a deep Imsakari, Elf or a Spirit Folk.
So, you cant add it to a lesser outsider.
Heh, wanted to use this on my lesser thiefling...
Why would you add Otherworldly to an outsider? they already have darkvision and are already immune to charm person...  |
| bayar |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 22:01:27
I just registered to add the following: You cant take the Otherworldly feat unless you are a Human, a deep Imsakari, Elf or a Spirit Folk.
So, you cant add it to a lesser outsider.
Heh, wanted to use this on my lesser thiefling... |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 23 Jun 2007 : 22:42:34
For those who are concerned (DMs or players of native outsiders), they've just confirmed that native outsiders get martial weapons in the new D&D FAQ (p.90)
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a
It helps Genasi a bit as they are quite weak, but as Eytan said, this makes the aasimar/tiefling a little strong for an already good +1 LA race (and remember that it only "adds" something if you play a class that does not have martial weapons, like cleric or wizard... classes that fit in the "if you're down to swinging a sword, you're in trouble" category...  ) |
| warlockco |
Posted - 21 May 2007 : 23:18:10
quote:
Originally posted by EytanBernstein
Aasimar have better stat adjustments. Genasi are quite weak for a +1.
I think Tieflings have better stats, or I could be mistaken, I don't look at the Planetouched much since 2E. And none of my players are interested in them. |
| EytanBernstein |
Posted - 21 May 2007 : 20:34:25
Aasimar have better stat adjustments. Genasi are quite weak for a +1. |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 21 May 2007 : 16:41:32
There's also the Expanded Psionics Handbook's version of the Duergar, also at +1, which offers a small power points reserve and the psionic equivalent of enlarge... (don't remember if they also have invisibility though... DHTBIFOM)
Don't want to beat a dead horse, but to me, there's no question that a duergar is superior to an aasimar or genasi, despite being at the same LA of +1. |
| EytanBernstein |
Posted - 21 May 2007 : 10:37:23
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Speaking of level adjustment does any know why the level adjustment for Duegar was dropped from +2 to +1 when 3.5 came out?
Comparing the FRC Duegar (3.0) to the MM Duegar(3.5)they seem to be the sameexcept for the LA cut
I think the rationale is that they were quite weak for a +2 level adjustment, but reasonable for a +1. |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 21 May 2007 : 05:48:24
Speaking of level adjustment does any know why the level adjustment for Duegar was dropped from +2 to +1 when 3.5 came out?
Comparing the FRC Duegar (3.0) to the MM Duegar(3.5)they seem to be the sameexcept for the LA cut |
| Darkmeer |
Posted - 20 May 2007 : 19:11:51
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Furthermore, WHERE do you get banished to?!?
Zippy's Magic Mini-Market in Peoria, Illinois. 
Really? I think Peoria's a bit difficult to get around in, with the river running through town and all, but that's just me.
As to Where NATIVE outsiders get banished to: The location of their birth is how I tend to handle it. Your Waterdhavian tiefling may actually hail from Hellgate Keep, thus when banished, he goes to just outside the gates of Hellgate Keep, so it's a heck of a disadvantage if you're a few miles away... Very interesting when I posit this to a group I DM for.
Now as to the RAW vs. "House Rule" discussion.
As a player, I'd love it if my DM would use the RAW. As a DM, I wouldn't dare use the RAW. By extension, the RAW opens up many more options for a player at +1 ECL than it should in my opinion. I posit for comparison: Drow. +2 ECL, butt-loads of special abilities and modifiers. NO "all martial weapon proficiencies." Personally, I don't believe that a 1/16th celestial/fiend/etc. could OR should have those abilities. I don't find that it nerfs the race at all, nor do I find that players don't want to play the races, and I've DM'med 4 tieflings and one aasimar, while I've played a cansin, tiefling, and 2 aasimars.
I could go on about other ECL+1 races that fit this mold without the full compliment of martial weapons, primarily from the environment series (Goliaths are #1 on my list), as well as a few others. What makes a planetouched, in my mind, is not the weapons. What I think of when I want to play a planetouched is the ability mods/resistances, and that's it. If I want it, I'll do it, but otherwise, I'd rather play a Goliath/Human/other race at random, but likely a gnome.
As to your games: If you are having fun with the RAW, great. Keep up the good work. If you, like Eytan & Rich & myself, think the Sage made a slight error, and are having fun, great. Keep up the good work.
/d |
| EytanBernstein |
Posted - 20 May 2007 : 17:05:34
I suppose one could look at this from a RAW perspective, but IMO, the reason the latest version of aasimar and tieflings don't have these traits is because they were never meant to have them (as opposed to being some sort of oversight). I suppose I'll cave in and say that there is little explicitly preventing this interpretation. Part of the problem here is that the various outsiders we're speaking of have racial hit dice. In essence, outsider is their class. Aasimars and tieflings do not receive racial hit dice, thus any proficiencies they do or do not have are dependent on their class.
Connected to the previous point is the fact that this theory views these races as monsters. In essence, they aren't monsters. They are races, and as such, receive the traits listed in their entries and nothing more. One could use this interpretation as a loophole and give them these traits. One could just as easily intrepret the races as not having the traits because they aren't monsters. The best example is the humanoid entry which states "all simple weapons or by character class." The Monster Manual is a DM tool, not a player one. The information presented there is for running enemies. Pretty much nothing printed with the exception of the "xx as characters" sections has anything to do with players.
To many a long story short, one could interpret it as you are (or whoever is) by the RAW. I think there are enough other precedents to deny that interpretation, but nothing explicit enough to completely shut it down. |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 20 May 2007 : 16:20:37
quote:
Originally posted by EytanBernstein
PDK, I think you're theory is going in the face of the idea that player races only receive the benefits of what's listed in their entries. There is no weapon listing in their entry, so they are not proficient in those weapons. It's irrelevant what is listed under the outsider type because the PC character entry is the only relevant entry for PCs. Under aassimar/tiefling as characters, it must say that they receive these proficiencies. Even if you perceive their being a conflict, the PC entry takes precedence because it is most germane text for the purpose of creating characters.
As for your demons and devils, you should be giving them proficiency in all martial weapons because they do receive it. If a PC played one of those monsters, s/he would receive it as well. That doesn't conflict in any way with the idea that aasimars and tieflings only get what's listed in their entries.
I don't see where the PC / NPC-Monster confusion stems from, but as far as I know, if you play a succubus or chain devil as a PC (although these are not common choices!  ), wouldn't you get the same perks that regular succubi or chain devils get?
Furthermore Eytan, I'd like to point out that it's not "my theory," and that I am merely pointing out the official rules on the matter. Please don't shoot this Purple Dragon messenger! I understand your frustrations however: the fact that these PC races gain proficiency with all martial weapons *SHOULD* be included in their racial entries (but then again, the FRCS was in the 3.0 rules, and these races were not revamped in the Player's Guide to Faerun, which could explain the problem).
To add insult to injury, the latest (and therefore official) version of the aasimar and tiefling (found within the pages of the Planar Handbook) still does not list all associated outsider traits, such as proficiency with all martial weapons; the Planar Handbook does, however, a good job in clearly stating that aasimars, tieflings, and various other race entries, have the outsider type or not (i.e. mephlings have the humanoid type, for instance). |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 20 May 2007 : 15:59:05
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Okay PDK going with this line of reasoning, so that means once a Monk hits 20th level they automatically learn to use ALL Martial Weapons out of thin air? Since at 20th level they do become Outsiders (Native), inface several PrCs also grant that perk.
Yes! isn't that wonderful? being an Outsider isn't *just* becoming a stranger version of oneself, but it's an actual metamorphosis into a completely different being, one with strong ties to the metaphysical and supernatural. It's perfectly acceptable to me that such beings are *born* or *automatically downloaded* with certain skills and abilities (i.e. such as wielding martial weapons) |
| Kuje |
Posted - 20 May 2007 : 14:49:39
For the record, but I'm not a rules guy, I agree with the official stance and PDK. The rules clearly state that native outsiders do receive martial weapons. As far as I'm concerned, Rich is wrong and the WOTC sage is correct, based on how the rules are written. |
| EytanBernstein |
Posted - 20 May 2007 : 12:24:33
PDK, I think you're theory is going in the face of the idea that player races only receive the benefits of what's listed in their entries. There is no weapon listing in their entry, so they are not proficient in those weapons. It's irrelevant what is listed under the outsider type because the PC character entry is the only relevant entry for PCs. Under aassimar/tiefling as characters, it must say that they receive these proficiencies. Even if you perceive their being a conflict, the PC entry takes precedence because it is most germane text for the purpose of creating characters.
As for your demons and devils, you should be giving them proficiency in all martial weapons because they do receive it. If a PC played one of those monsters, s/he would receive it as well. That doesn't conflict in any way with the idea that aasimars and tieflings only get what's listed in their entries. |
| warlockco |
Posted - 20 May 2007 : 06:06:25
Okay PDK going with this line of reasoning, so that means once a Monk hits 20th level they automatically learn to use ALL Martial Weapons out of thin air? Since at 20th level they do become Outsiders (Native), inface several PrCs also grant that perk. |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 20 May 2007 : 02:06:36
I usually don't like to "swim against the current" too much, but I believe that, technically (i.e. rules-wise), you are all wrong gentlemen!
Dragon 352, p.86, "Sage Advice: Official Answers to Your Questions" states: "The Monster Manual lists outsiders as having profiency with all martial weapons. Does that mean that aasimars, tiefling, and genasis are automatically proficient with all martial weapons?Yes."
In a post that followed the publication of this Dragon magazine, Rich stated his disagreement with this ruling from the Sage, but I must humbly disagree with Rich and the rest of you here.
Let me explain. Starting with the base argument made by Eytan, we hav the following:
"Native outsider status really has nothing to do with the term outsider as defined in the Monster Manual (hence the reason it has its own entry as a subtype). There would be no reason for an aasimar to instinctually know any more about weapons than a human. The only true disadvantages to being a native oustider are the you can be affected by some spells that affect (or have greater effect against) outsiders of your alignment. You can be the target of an evil ranger's favored enemy ability. You can be smote, detected, and affected by any special ability of a class or race against good outsiders.)"
I'm usually not a dissecter, but Eytan's argument basically states that:
1. The Native Outsider subtype is "separable" from the Outsider type and therefore *could* be applied to a non-outsider, such as the humanoid type; yet, the rules are clear on the subject (see below)
--> SRD, "TYPES, SUBTYPES, & SPECIAL ABILITIES, Native Subtype: A subtype applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane (hence the subtype’s name). Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep."
2. The only drawback of "being a native outsider" is that "you can be affected by some spells that affect outsiders of your alignment."
--> Now, this wouldn't make much sense if in fact, you could still be of a type other than outsider. This would go against all the rules as we know it, and really throw a wrench in the whole bane weapons, ranger favored enemy, etc. mechanics.
Which brings me to this. The truth of the matter is that many folks have houseruled that native outsiders do not get all the perks of the outsider type. This is their prerogative, but still just a houserule. The rules clearly state that the native subtype is only applied to outsiders, and all outsiders are proficient with martial weapons. Personally I find this comforting. Why else would you pay a +1 ECL for a fire or earth genasi?!? true, some planetouched, such as the aasimar and air genasi, are clearly superior to other planetouched, but this is a balance problem that was inserted during design, and these exceptions should not dictate a change upon the native subtype / outsider rules mechanics.
Finally, one might decide that an errata on the outsider type would be the quickest way to change this, but it would in fact increase to the confusion and blur the lines even more; if one states "outsiders are proficient with whatever weapons listed in their individual entry," we revert to an imprecise state of confusion similar to the one introduced within the Planetouched entry of "Monsters of Faerun."
No. Right now we have something nice and handy, DM-wise, which lets us throw devils and demons wielding whatever martial weapon we see fit, some of which may be magical and later used by the fighters of a party; sticking outsiders with simple weapons only would be ridiculous, and further reduce the amount of magical gear that becomes useful/available to the warrior-types of a party. In conclusion, +1 ECL races are already, even with martial weapons, disadvantaged, in my views. There aren't a lot of things that would convince me to select a race that would cost me a level or more in comparison to the rest of a party... removing martial weapons to native outsider would utterly convince me that these races are flawed, underpowered, and anemic, especially at higher levels.
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| warlockco |
Posted - 19 May 2007 : 22:29:32
quote:
Originally posted by EytanBernstein
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Dargoth,
The only drawback in your scheme is that the Otherworldly-enhanced lesser aasimar will not have proficiency in all martial weapons (native outsiders do, and technically, AFAIK, Otherworldly does not grant you the native outsider subtype). Most of the aasimars I've seen were clerics, so the martial weapon for free thing is nice for them.
Also, I'd check on the rules for banishment... I *don't* think that a native outsider can be banished, so if your lesser version *can* be banished, I would see this as a huge drawback... Furthermore, WHERE do you get banished to?!?
Actually, according to Richard Baker (and I concur with this), aasimar do not gain proficiency in all martial weapons. They are precisely like any other race - their proficiencies are based on their character class. Native outsider status really has nothing to do with the term outsider as defined in the Monster Manual (hence the reason it has its own entry as a subtype). There would be no reason for an aasimar to instinctually know any more about weapons than a human.
The only true disadvantages to being a native oustider are the you can be affected by some spells that affect (or have greater effect against) outsiders of your alignment. You can be the target of an evil ranger's favored enemy ability. You can be smote, detected, and affected by any special ability of a class or race against good outsiders.
Have to concur, otherwise Planetouched would be a "bit" overpowering, being able to use All Martial Weapons. |
| MerrikCale |
Posted - 19 May 2007 : 20:34:45
quote:
Originally posted by EytanBernstein
[quote][i]
Actually, according to Richard Baker (and I concur with this), aasimar do not gain proficiency in all martial weapons. They are precisely like any other race - their proficiencies are based on their character class. Native outsider status really has nothing to do with the term outsider as defined in the Monster Manual (hence the reason it has its own entry as a subtype). There would be no reason for an aasimar to instinctually know any more about weapons than a human.
The only true disadvantages to being a native oustider are the you can be affected by some spells that affect (or have greater effect against) outsiders of your alignment. You can be the target of an evil ranger's favored enemy ability. You can be smote, detected, and affected by any special ability of a class or race against good outsiders.
makes sense. thats how I see it. |
| EytanBernstein |
Posted - 19 May 2007 : 20:08:20
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Dargoth,
The only drawback in your scheme is that the Otherworldly-enhanced lesser aasimar will not have proficiency in all martial weapons (native outsiders do, and technically, AFAIK, Otherworldly does not grant you the native outsider subtype). Most of the aasimars I've seen were clerics, so the martial weapon for free thing is nice for them.
Also, I'd check on the rules for banishment... I *don't* think that a native outsider can be banished, so if your lesser version *can* be banished, I would see this as a huge drawback... Furthermore, WHERE do you get banished to?!?
Actually, according to Richard Baker (and I concur with this), aasimar do not gain proficiency in all martial weapons. They are precisely like any other race - their proficiencies are based on their character class. Native outsider status really has nothing to do with the term outsider as defined in the Monster Manual (hence the reason it has its own entry as a subtype). There would be no reason for an aasimar to instinctually know any more about weapons than a human.
The only true disadvantages to being a native oustider are the you can be affected by some spells that affect (or have greater effect against) outsiders of your alignment. You can be the target of an evil ranger's favored enemy ability. You can be smote, detected, and affected by any special ability of a class or race against good outsiders. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 May 2007 : 16:31:56
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Furthermore, WHERE do you get banished to?!?
Zippy's Magic Mini-Market in Peoria, Illinois. |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 19 May 2007 : 05:30:44
The character will be a Paladin so Im not that fussed as Ill get the martial weapons as a class feature
Not sure where a Lesser Aasimar would be banished to! |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 19 May 2007 : 04:50:39
Dargoth,
The only drawback in your scheme is that the Otherworldly-enhanced lesser aasimar will not have proficiency in all martial weapons (native outsiders do, and technically, AFAIK, Otherworldly does not grant you the native outsider subtype). Most of the aasimars I've seen were clerics, so the martial weapon for free thing is nice for them.
Also, I'd check on the rules for banishment... I *don't* think that a native outsider can be banished, so if your lesser version *can* be banished, I would see this as a huge drawback... Furthermore, WHERE do you get banished to?!? |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 19 May 2007 : 01:13:00
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
A lesser Aasimar? Why would anyone want to play a race that's got "lesser" in it's name?
cause its ECL 0 instead of ECL 1 |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 May 2007 : 22:50:16
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
A lesser Aasimar? Why would anyone want to play a race that's got "lesser" in it's name?
Well, "half" is less than one, so it's technically lesser...  |
| khorne |
Posted - 18 May 2007 : 21:13:19
A lesser Aasimar? Why would anyone want to play a race that's got "lesser" in it's name? |
| warlockco |
Posted - 18 May 2007 : 11:17:06
quote:
Originally posted by EytanBernstein
I would also say that Magic in the Blood increases the number of spell-like abilities granted by racial feats. So if a feat grants you more spell-like abilities solely based on your race, I would allow that ability to be increased by Magic in the Blood.
I would agree with this also. Especially in regards to Drow, who are the ones this feat is mainly aimed at. |
| EytanBernstein |
Posted - 18 May 2007 : 10:09:40
I would say that Otherworldly basically makes you into a full aasimar. Lesser aasimar might be a bit too good, but according to the rules, it works. I would also say that Magic in the Blood increases the number of spell-like abilities granted by racial feats. So if a feat grants you more spell-like abilities solely based on your race, I would allow that ability to be increased by Magic in the Blood. |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 18 May 2007 : 08:03:51
On a side note does the Magic in the Blood regional feat effect spell like abilities granted by Racial feats? |
| warlockco |
Posted - 18 May 2007 : 04:44:41
Outsiders have their own vulnerabilities... |
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