| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Lord Lysander |
Posted - 14 Feb 2007 : 22:28:23
Gnomes at 2nd take +1 INT, -1 WIS, which is really logical, as it can be Role Playied really well. They construct the most perfect engines and after 10 minutes they forget what these constructs do, or how they work.
On the other hand at 3.5 they have +2 CON,-2 STR.Even if they are smaller, and so you can justify a -2 STR, they can not have +2 Con, cause it is nearlly unacceptable to be as tough as dwarves are. Any comments? (if not about these generally about gnomes. Aren't they perfect?) |
| 29 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 25 Feb 2007 : 15:38:54
Did I also mention that you can fascinate enemies and/or use your Perform skills through an illusion version of yourself? Thank you Major Image spell... Thank you! 
(NOTE: I use a "Horn of Volume" - slotless magic item found in the "Miniature's Handbook" - which doubles the distance at which all my bardic music effects work at; this means I can fascinate creatures up to 180 feet away, and use Countersong up to 60 feet, etc. Fascinating a creature up to 180 feet away means that my character can be hidden/invisible at this distance while an illusion copy of him Performs, say, 30 feet from the monster... if I fail, the illusion gets attacked, not me. This trick allows our party to avoid many encounters altogether: you just need someone with a really high Spot check in your party, to see the foe coming from a distance (either that or a druid in the inconspicuous form of a small bird to recon ahead of time.) |
| bitter thorn |
Posted - 25 Feb 2007 : 14:30:20
I like this way of looking at the issue, PDK. Insightful viewpoint!
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
quote:
Originally posted by nbnmare
That's only in general D&D though. In the Forgotten Realms, all three gnome subraces have illusionist as their favored class (see Races of Faerun).
(The favored classes for the subraces are different in general D&D, too; the forest gnome's favored class is also bard, and the svirfneblin's favored class is rogue.)
That's a tad incorrect: we have received confirmation that all FR gnome subraces now follow the same rules as 3.5 general D&D.
I personally, at first, disliked the idea, as I love playing gnome illusionists; however, right now, my favorite PC is a rock gnome bard_6/lyric_thaumaturge_1/shadow_adept_1 with the Still Spell, Shadow Weave Magic, Melodic Casting, Insidious Magic, Pernicious Magic, and Tenacious Magic feats (the last three feats come for free with the Shadow Adept level...)
Needless to say, this little fellow is already deadly with illusion spells, and will be much more so with the addition of the Spell Focus Illusion feat and a few levels of Shadowcraft Mage (from Races of Stone; this will make his illusion spells act like shadow evocation and shadow conjuration spells!) 
Bottom line: I am slowly being convinced, through gameplay with a gnome bard, that the changes brought to the bard class when they rebuilt it for 3.5 ARE essentially directly geared towards the classic idea of a 'stereotypical 2nd edition gnome', for the following reasons:
1. The bard spell lists has been expanded with several illusion spells;
2. The 2nd edition gnome was a good trickster, joker, etc. which can be marvelously emulated through the Perform: Comedy skill, which in turn, can be used to fascinate the enemy or inspire courage in allies!
3. Spontaneous casting tradition of bards is also in line with the 'spontaneous, crazy, unpredictable' behaviours of gnomes;
4. The nonlawful alignment requirement of the bard class is also in line with the 'trickster' gnome archetype; and
5. Let's face it: the level limit cap for the 2nd edition illusionist translate splendidly into the weaker, slower bard spell progression seen in 3E! 
|
| Kuje |
Posted - 25 Feb 2007 : 03:37:27
I remember Rich's reply to that, so PDK is correct. |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 25 Feb 2007 : 03:07:29
nbnmare: I got my info straight from Rich Baker, head of the FR design team, in one of his posts here at Candlekeep AND on the WotC boards. FR gnomes now follow all rules for D&D gnomes. Plain and simple.
I remember this answer keenly: I had the same fit you're having now, but three years ago. I, too, wished that FR gnomes' favored class would have remained Illusionist. However, as I said in my post above, you can't say you don't like something until you've tried it, and trying a gnome bard at the present moment, I must tell you that I am having a really good time. The low STR is actually forcing me to 'be' a bard and not waste my time swinging swords in battle; the high CON is keeping me alive longer; I only wish gnomes had a bonus to CHA! |
| nbnmare |
Posted - 25 Feb 2007 : 01:09:12
Paying a bit more attention to what Races of Faerun says, it seems that while illusionist is the gnome's favored class, illusionist isn't generally the most common class for gnome adventures to be.
Rock gnome illusionists in particular tend to be of the stay-at-home sort, with rock gnome adventurers in Faerun are almost always being bards. Deep gnome adventurers are most likely to be fighters, rangers, rogues, or wizards (particularly illusionists), which does sort-of fit in with the standard D&D's favored class of gnome. However, bards are not at all common amongst FR forest gnomes, with forest gnome adventurers almost having illusionist or cleric levels; this is in complete contrast to the standard D&D forest gnome, with bard as their favourite class. FR forest gnomes can also speak with animals at will, whereas standard D&D forest gnomes can only do it once per day, as with the rock gnome. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 25 Feb 2007 : 00:20:53
This is true, but several sources mention that rock gnomes are "standard" gnomes from the Player's Handbook. I don't think it hurts anything one way or the other, but there is support for gnomes having bard as their favored class in the description for rock gnomes, i.e. that many gnomes affected by wanderlust (including most adventurers) take up the bard class. |
| nbnmare |
Posted - 24 Feb 2007 : 23:24:28
Err, I'm afraid I can't find any such confirmation in any sourcebook publish since Races of Faerun, which explicitly states the favored class for all three gnome subraces is illusionist, and even provides an illusion-related feat for each subrace. |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 24 Feb 2007 : 23:16:30
quote:
Originally posted by nbnmare
That's only in general D&D though. In the Forgotten Realms, all three gnome subraces have illusionist as their favored class (see Races of Faerun).
(The favored classes for the subraces are different in general D&D, too; the forest gnome's favored class is also bard, and the svirfneblin's favored class is rogue.)
That's a tad incorrect: we have received confirmation that all FR gnome subraces now follow the same rules as 3.5 general D&D.
I personally, at first, disliked the idea, as I love playing gnome illusionists; however, right now, my favorite PC is a rock gnome bard_6/lyric_thaumaturge_1/shadow_adept_1 with the Still Spell, Shadow Weave Magic, Melodic Casting, Insidious Magic, Pernicious Magic, and Tenacious Magic feats (the last three feats come for free with the Shadow Adept level...)
Needless to say, this little fellow is already deadly with illusion spells, and will be much more so with the addition of the Spell Focus Illusion feat and a few levels of Shadowcraft Mage (from Races of Stone; this will make his illusion spells act like shadow evocation and shadow conjuration spells!)
Bottom line: I am slowly being convinced, through gameplay with a gnome bard, that the changes brought to the bard class when they rebuilt it for 3.5 ARE essentially directly geared towards the classic idea of a 'stereotypical 2nd edition gnome', for the following reasons:
1. The bard spell lists has been expanded with several illusion spells;
2. The 2nd edition gnome was a good trickster, joker, etc. which can be marvelously emulated through the Perform: Comedy skill, which in turn, can be used to fascinate the enemy or inspire courage in allies!
3. Spontaneous casting tradition of bards is also in line with the 'spontaneous, crazy, unpredictable' behaviours of gnomes;
4. The nonlawful alignment requirement of the bard class is also in line with the 'trickster' gnome archetype; and
5. Let's face it: the level limit cap for the 2nd edition illusionist translate splendidly into the weaker, slower bard spell progression seen in 3E! |
| nbnmare |
Posted - 24 Feb 2007 : 02:52:32
Apparently the difference between D&D gnomaes and FR gnomes is explained by the following snippet of Realms Lore (much thanks to A Grand History):
-3095 DR: The Fair Folk of Cormanthyr steal one set of the nether scrolls and hide it away in the depths of Windsong Tower. One of the thieves, a gnome elf-friend named Rilmohx Sha`Quessir, steals a glance at one of the nether scrolls and is rewarded with a
deep understanding of how to cast illusion spells. This knowledge spreads quickly through the gnome community. |
| nbnmare |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 19:23:24
My point is that it's only one absurb aspect amongst countless absurd aspects of both 2nd and 3rd Edition D&D (EDIT: and indeed earlier editions), and it doesn't even apply to the Forgotten Realms anyway. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 19:16:07
quote:
Originally posted by nbnmare
No more so than 2E elves not being allowed to be bards, 2E dwarves and halflings not being allowed to be paladins, or all races suddenly being able to be all classes where they once couldn't.
And your point is? That's not what I was talking about. |
| nbnmare |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 19:06:51
No more so than 2E elves not being allowed to be bards, 2E dwarves and halflings not being allowed to be paladins, or all races suddenly being able to be all classes where they once couldn't. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 19:01:32
quote:
Originally posted by nbnmare
That's only in general D&D though.
So what? It's still absurd. |
| nbnmare |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 19:00:32
That's only in general D&D though. In the Forgotten Realms, all three gnome subraces have illusionist as their favored class (see Races of Faerun).
(The favored classes for the subraces are different in general D&D, too; the forest gnome's favored class is also bard, and the svirfneblin's favored class is rogue.) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 18:54:17
I've always found the total turnaround WotC took regarding the gnome favored class to be highly amusing. Gnomes went from having "no bardic traditions" in 3.0 to having Bard as their favored class in 3.5. Great consistency there. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 17:43:42
I remember at least one post by a 3E designer -- I think it was Sean Reynolds -- giving the reason I cited for why ability modifiers were always even. |
| bitter thorn |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 16:47:11
I concur. I like 3.5 Gnomes just fine, but we did house rule that thier favored class is bard and illusionist. We just couldn't let go of that 2nd ed convention.
quote:
Originally posted by scererar
I concur, Gnomes are great to play. Matter of fact, several of my past characters have been gnomes. They play just fine, mechanics wise.. to me at least.
|
| Sanishiver |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 06:50:30
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
(One of several ways 3E assumes its players are powergaming idiots.)
No, they were simply thinking of as many ways as possible to annoy you and you only, Far.
Seriously though, Far's wrong. The increments are for simpler math, and are made to leave you with multiple odd numberd scores, so you as a player can have choices on what to 'even out' as your character advances.
Example: Say my 1st level Gnome (after racial bonuses are figured in) has a 9 STR and 13 CON. When I finally hit a level where I can add a point to an ability score, I get to choose between these two. Do I add a point to CON and gain HP or do I add one to STR and get rid of a pesky negative (something I've been pondering for awhile now for a character of mine in the :gasp!: Eberron game I play in).
It's all meant to give you more choices and keep things interesting. (And to annoy Farear too. They totally focus-grouped that in to the game back in 2000. Swear to God!)
 |
| Faraer |
Posted - 19 Feb 2007 : 17:56:57
It's to prevent min/maxing by getting +1 bonuses with +1 ability.
(One of several ways 3E assumes its players are powergaming idiots.) |
| see |
Posted - 19 Feb 2007 : 07:28:16
The reason they're +2/-2 is that ability scores have massive mechanical changes from 2e. The ability score number is mostly just for backwards compatibility (though they've used it for feat qualifications); the real number is the bonus (like Ars Magica did back in the mid-Eighties, on the -5 to +5 scale). The +2/-2 system means you're always adjusting the real score by +1/-1, not a randomly "+1 or +0"/"-1 or -0". |
| Markustay |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 23:07:08
Like the halflings, I allow for both old and new. I just assume the ToT shook a lot of things up (Thunder Children?) and now some peoples are looking at things from a different perspective. 'Tinkery' Gnomes live on lantan, Forest Gnomes still live in the forests, Rock gnomes still live near rocks
and Lawn Gnomes still have to watch out for lawnmowers... and the neighbors dog.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Lysander
Gnomes at 2nd take +1 INT, -1 WIS, which is really logical, as it can be Role Playied really well. They construct the most perfect engines and after 10 minutes they forget what these constructs do, or how they work.
On the other hand at 3.5 they have +2 CON,-2 STR.Even if they are smaller, and so you can justify a -2 STR, they can not have +2 Con, cause it is nearlly unacceptable to be as tough as dwarves are. Any comments? (if not about these generally about gnomes. Aren't they perfect?)
While we're at it, this reminds me of one of my other 3e pet peeves. Why do all racial adjustments HAVE to be in increments of 2? What was wrong with +/- 1? I think you were able to fine-tune races much better that way.
Just my take. |
| nbnmare |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 02:49:15
I must be missing something here, because I see almost nothing in 3E sources such as the Player's Handbook and Races of Faerūn regarding rock gnomes that conflicts with what is said in Complete Book of Gnomes and Halflings. The only discrepency I could find is a single line in the PH which describes gnomes as technicians, alchemists, and inventors, professions that are never mentioned in CBoGH. RoF in particular mainly reiterates what was said in CBoG, though obviously it doesn't go into anywhere near as much depth or deed. RoF also state the following:
"[Rock gnomes] are well known for their love of jokes and pranks, as well as their fondness for finely made things."
As well as:
"Even on the job, though, [rock] gnomes are usually friendly and funloving people. They are constantly telling jokes throughout their day, many of which leave their coworkers in stiches."
Even Monster Manual I tells us that:
"[Rock gnomes] enjoy the company of halflings, especially those easygoing enough to put up with pranks and jests."
That doesn't particularly make them seem like 'tinker gnomes without humour' to me . |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 02:28:39
I mentioned this over in the old/new halfings thread, but the Green Ronin d20 book Advanced Player's Manual has rules for custom building the abilities for a given race, and depending on the bonuses penalties you take for your abilities scores, not everyone in a given race has to have the same favored class. Just playing around I came up with this version of the Gnome, Rock (Lantan) race according to the rules therein:
Str -2; Int +2
Favored Class: Rogue
Low light vision; +2 bonus versus illusions; exotic weapon proficiency (pistols and muskets), +1 to hit with pistols and muskets; +2 on craft (alchemy), +2 knowledge (engineering), +2 craft (trapmaking)
Lantanese gnomes are still rock gnomes for all intents and purposes, but their lives on Lantan have been more directed toward the pursuits of invention and craft. As such, they have not developed the normal gnomish magical abilities, nor their standard traits. Still, as they are decended from more traditional rock gnomes, they retain their ability to resist illusions (which is bolstered by their natural attention to detail). Lantanese gnomes are facinated with smokepowder weapons and are more familiar with their use than any other group in Faerun, though they do not spend the time learning about combat techniques regarding giants or goblinoids that more traditional rock gnomes do. |
| MerrikCale |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 02:09:15
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I use the 2ed. version, but I don't see the problem with them having +2 to constitution. The dwarves may be stronger, but constitution and general health is not necessarily tied to strength.
One thing that bothers me about the newer gnomes (in addition to the nose-thing) is that the mechanic-oriented side of their nature has been increased. I still see gnomes as shy nature beings with a taste for tinkering and artistic crafting.
I have to agree with everything Jorkens is saying. I like the 2e style better myself. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 15 Feb 2007 : 08:07:04
Well the forest gnomes are still OK, but the rock gnomes were turned to much into tinker gnomes without humour (as halflings became "normalized" kenders). I prefer the rock gnomes as they were in the old Gnomes and Halflings book. Its a matter of taste and many people like the new gnomes; I personally am not exactly known for liking changes in any form though. |
| Sian |
Posted - 15 Feb 2007 : 07:58:57
then go with forest gnomes Jorkens ... RoF |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 15 Feb 2007 : 07:46:03
I use the 2ed. version, but I don't see the problem with them having +2 to constitution. The dwarves may be stronger, but constitution and general health is not necessarily tied to strength.
One thing that bothers me about the newer gnomes (in addition to the nose-thing) is that the mechanic-oriented side of their nature has been increased. I still see gnomes as shy nature beings with a taste for tinkering and artistic crafting. |
| scererar |
Posted - 15 Feb 2007 : 03:53:37
I concur, Gnomes are great to play. Matter of fact, several of my past characters have been gnomes. They play just fine, mechanics wise.. to me at least. |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 15 Feb 2007 : 01:31:29
I like the gnomes as is. They are a powerful race and I like it. All hail Garl Glittergold! |
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