| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Alaundo |
Posted - 04 Nov 2006 : 16:51:59
Well met
This is a Book Club thread for Shadowbred (Book 1 of The Twilight War trilogy), by Paul S. Kemp. Please discuss the prologue and chapters 1 - 4 herein. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| PaulSKemp |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 18:57:16
Kyrene and Ed,
I'm glad you're both enjoying Shadowbred. Sorry to have missed the questions. The first page of the book club forum is full of "sticky" threads, so I didn't see these right away.
Anyway: As for typeface and whatnot -- Shadowbred ran a little long. If memory serves, it clocked in around 116,000 words. Rather than cut out a bunch, WotC seems to have stuffed a few more words on each page, hence the smaller typeface. Later books in the series should look more like what you're used to -- both of those came in around 95K to 105K.
As for content -- I haven't had a lot of pushback from WotC on content. I try to keep things reasonable, but I think the editors are willing to allow us to push the envelope a little here and there (as with the Elyril scenes). |
| edappel |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 18:41:58
quote:
Oh and how did you get the sexual stuff passed? Elyril was clearly orgasming during her dream, but I thought that kind of stuff would not pass WotC censure or writing guidelines. You know that I have praised you before for your more real and gritty writing style, so its not that I don't like itquite the contraryI'm just curious.
I entered here to ask the same thing.. LoL..
Let's see if someday Paul Kemp comes here to answer our doubt.. ;) We could ask it on his forum too... Hm.. Another day I will do it and post it here.  |
| Kyrene |
Posted - 13 Apr 2009 : 09:11:43
quote:
Originally posted by PaulSKemp
I try to be cognizant of other books/series, and to weave things together as best I can, but in truth I had a lot of help with that on Shadowbred -- from my editor (Phil Athans), Eric Boyd (who read an early draft), George Krashos (who didn't read the novel but who made a few key suggestions that I worked in), and Don Bassingthwaite (who gave me some insight on some tie-in issues from Mistress of the Night).
Since I only now got this trilogy (yeah, I'm a late bloomer to Cale) this was one of the things I've already enjoyed about it. I readand enjoyedMistress of the Night and to see that The Leaves of One Night is possibly making a comeback warmed my heart. I'm only on page 50 or so as of this writing, so cannot comment on too much apart from echoing what others have already praised. Perhaps not having read RotA will be to my advantage, as it won't cloud my judgement of the Shades.
I do have a question on Ssessimyth though. Didn't the Source tear away from it in the last book? I seem to recall that Ssessimyth vowed to find and destroy those responsible (for the Source's silence) and was last seen leaving the area of Sakkors on its revenge mission.
What was your wordcount for this RSE, Paul, and how does it compare to a normal Realms novel's wordcount? I find that the typeset for this novel is a lot smaller that I am used to and its still 341 pages (RSE length). Not that I'm complaining.
Oh and how did you get the sexual stuff passed? Elyril was clearly orgasming during her dream, but I thought that kind of stuff would not pass WotC censure or writing guidelines. You know that I have praised you before for your more real and gritty writing style, so its not that I don't like itquite the contraryI'm just curious. |
| PaulSKemp |
Posted - 16 Jan 2008 : 14:53:22
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
As always, I am years behind the reading material. However, I finally got my hands on this book. I avoided it a long time because I have not read a single Cale book and did not what to spoil the fun by reading his latest adventure. However I somehow could not seem to get around it any longer and have found out that it is not neccissary to have read them to understand the events in Shadowbred. Most of Cales historic tie -ins are explained in a very nice way as the story developes.
First off: the start into the book is one of the most intriguing and tense parts of written material I have experienced so far. The trolls, the dark, the shadowman - I loved it! My thanks for these lines already, Mr. Kemp.
The praise contuniues: I also like the intriguing part of the shades and the far reaching plot Shar has in mind. I love Elyrin (or whats her name again?), well, the drug sniffing niece, where I still have not figured out if she is halucinating or outright mad or actually touched by the divine. Nicly done!
Also, how the realms shaking events of the near past are summed up and mentioned again and again adds to the flavor, IMHO.
Great work so far, Paul!
Hey, a Shadowbred discussion. Sweet.
Anyway, thanks, Erg. I hope you enjoy the rest of the novel, too. |
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 16 Jan 2008 : 09:48:08
As always, I am years behind the reading material. However, I finally got my hands on this book. I avoided it a long time because I have not read a single Cale book and did not what to spoil the fun by reading his latest adventure. However I somehow could not seem to get around it any longer and have found out that it is not neccissary to have read them to understand the events in Shadowbred. Most of Cales historic tie -ins are explained in a very nice way as the story developes.
First off: the start into the book is one of the most intriguing and tense parts of written material I have experienced so far. The trolls, the dark, the shadowman - I loved it! My thanks for these lines already, Mr. Kemp.
The praise contuniues: I also like the intriguing part of the shades and the far reaching plot Shar has in mind. I love Elyrin (or whats her name again?), well, the drug sniffing niece, where I still have not figured out if she is halucinating or outright mad or actually touched by the divine. Nicly done!
Also, how the realms shaking events of the near past are summed up and mentioned again and again adds to the flavor, IMHO.
Great work so far, Paul!
|
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 29 Jun 2007 : 01:47:35
I love this book so far. Love it, love it, love it. It's just so...complex and intricate, not because of the politics involved, but because of the characters. Varra is a "Seeker of the Sun", whereas her supposed boyfriend (and I use that term loosely) is a seeker of shadows. Their relationship feels real to me, but in a sad way. They are basically "two ships passing in the night"--they don't seem to talk or share much of themselves, and therefore they aren't truly a couple yet.
The villains are great too, just as they were in the Erevis Cale series. Who would have thought that Rivalen has a coin collection? Again I wonder why I waiting so long to read these books (I finished the Erevis Cale trilogy only recently). Cale seems like a real person. |
| Crust |
Posted - 12 Jun 2007 : 23:46:45
I just wanted to say that I'm thoroughly enjoying this book. I'm savoring it currently, just past page 100. The Shades are icy cold. I love it. I'm really enjoying Elyril and her obsession with Shar. Never before have I seen Shar and her faithful portrayed so, as if their acts are justified in some sick way. The Shadowman prologue was a great surprise. Cale's incredible. Magadon always seemed like an NPC. Not in this novel. I'm very interested in his plot arc.
I'm looking forward to the culmination of this trilogy.  |
| Copper Elven Vampire |
Posted - 30 Nov 2006 : 07:42:45
I am just wondering if Galaeron or any other elven co-stars or main characters are in these books. |
| Wandering_mage |
Posted - 29 Nov 2006 : 21:10:40
I think Everis Cale's complicated status with Mask is awesome. Nothing beats shaking up the normal. The more I read about Shar the more I dislike this secret keeping witch of a goddess.  So you definitely have me rooting for Everis Cale.
On a seperate note I was surprised that Rivalen is the highest ranked cleric of Shar (I think I got that right). And more accurately stated, the highest ranked Shadovar cleric of Shar. From the RotA I kinda assumed Yder was Shar's favored among the Shadovar. Then again that was never stated and Rivalen was left very mysterious during the series. We only knew him to be a shadow weave wielding baddie with a taste for kickin' butt. This book is clearing up a lot of the mystery from RotA and adding some great lore!  |
| PaulSKemp |
Posted - 29 Nov 2006 : 13:44:32
quote:
Originally posted by Wandering_mage
I haven't read any of the Everis Cale books and boy am I going to have to now.
That's nice to hear, WM. Since you seem to be enjoying Shadowbred, I suspect you'll also enjoy the Cale Trilogy. As I mentioned to Mkai above, there are some implicit spoilers for the Cale Trilogy in Shadowbred, but nothing (I think) that would lessen your enjoyment of the trilogy overall.
quote:
Originally posted by Wandering_mage
Oh, Everis Cale is a Mask worshipper right? I hope he is.
He is, indeed, though his relationship with his god is...complicated. You'll see.  |
| Wandering_mage |
Posted - 28 Nov 2006 : 21:15:43
I haven't read any of the Everis Cale books and boy am I going to have to now. I though Rivalen's thoughts on contacting the Shar worshipper in Sembia was awesome. You know about the minddust.  The crazy people never think they are crazy. Gotta love it. Who else is rooting for Everis Cale's side? Oh, Everis Cale is a Mask worshipper right? I hope he is. |
| Mkhaiwati |
Posted - 20 Nov 2006 : 22:54:40
As I said, the prologue does a great job of introducing Erevis. As far as my thoughts on him, he is a complicated fellow. Not talking to Mask, while being his Chosen, is interesting. Needing the (dead) halfling to help with his humanity is a nice touch. Just making someone who is a Chosen of an evil deity being concerned with friends and pursuing acts of good such as saving the halfling village is really great.
I don't mind spoilers. I re-read books a lot, like Lord of the Rings or Quo Vadis, so I know what is going to happen. In this case, all these people were enjoying Shadowbred so much, I just had to see it for myself. It isn't the destination that is enjoyable, but how you get there. So I am not worried what I may learn about the earlier series.
|
| PaulSKemp |
Posted - 20 Nov 2006 : 20:22:12
quote:
Originally posted by Mkhaiwati
I can only stress that I also really like what you have done with the villains in making them more real, with real quirks and emotions. Seeing Cale in the prologue was a great intro for someone who has not read about him before.
I don't have a problem with the first person writing. I think that is a goofy rule by WotC, but I am also only one reader. I am a big fan of Roger Zelazny's writings, and he experimented (as well as wrote a lot of first person narrative) on many, many books, doing many strange things.
Thanks, Mkhaiwati. I appreciate that a great deal. And I'm pleased the first person works for you. And Zelazny is excellent, btw!
I am, of course, delighted that reading Shadowbred makes you want to pick up the Erevis Cale Trilogy. I am intrigued to hear your thoughts about Shadowbred because I'm quite curious about how those who have not previously read of Cale and crew will respond to the novel. Please be sure to share (nudge, nudge).
Also, as a heads-up, there are some spoilers about the Cale trilogy in Shadowbred. I tried to be vague where possible, but some were just inevitable, since they go to issues of motivation. Notwithstanding that, I think and hope that the Cale trilogy will still be a good read for you when you turn to it. You'll just know more going into it than long time Cale readers did. |
| Mkhaiwati |
Posted - 20 Nov 2006 : 19:56:28
I have to agree with the posters so far. This has been an excellent book. This is also my first intro to Paul Kemp's writing, as I have yet to read Resurrection (that series has really lost interest in me after the fourth book, I think because there are different styles of writing in each book). In fact, your methodology and style of writing has me hooked, so I think I will need to go get the Cale series and read those when I can.
I can only stress that I also really like what you have done with the villains in making them more real, with real quirks and emotions. Seeing Cale in the prologue was a great intro for someone who has not read about him before.
I don't have a problem with the first person writing. I think that is a goofy rule by WotC, but I am also only one reader. I am a big fan of Roger Zelazny's writings, and he experimented (as well as wrote a lot of first person narrative) on many, many books, doing many strange things.
|
| PaulSKemp |
Posted - 18 Nov 2006 : 11:05:34
Dart,
Thank you kindly. I hope the rest of the novel works for you, too. I'll look forward to hearing your thoughts. |
| Dart Ambermoon |
Posted - 18 Nov 2006 : 03:48:18
So, I received this novel today and have some first thoughts after not putting it down until the end of chapter 4 (which I did because my girlfriend icily informed me I should have been shaved, showered and ready to go half-an-hour earlier...ahem...)
Iīll be honest. Neither ROTA, nor the whole City of Shade Storyline were in any way among my favourites in the Realms. Neither made it into my home campaign so far, and I didnīt really care about any characters associated with it. So I was a bit "hmm..." on the premise for the trilogy (without wanting to knock anybody who worked on those materials off). It was like "all right, I ainīt into the Shade Stuff, but I like Paul Kempīs writing and even Shade-Stuff couldnīt kill my love for his char Cale" (though I was sceptical at first tbh).
Now, and this ainīt fanboy suck-up, but it took you just one chapter to hook me onto the two princes. Seriously, all the praise about their characters written before my post, about Rivalenīs depth especially, and the fact that you showed them (and later other "antagonists" as real individuals with individual goals and motivations, individual vices and flaws/strengths) just made it really sizzle for me and made me care about them. They are royally rocking "villains" and you sure show different shades of dark. And the plots and goals of the City of Shade (inasfar as they are mentioned up to here)were represented and brought in in a way that I finally gave a damn about them (and it might be a big one, too).
Makes me almost happy Jakīs not around, but happily enjoying afterlife...I shudder to think what could be in store for him in this trilogy.
I equally loved the depth of lore, references to other works and summarizations. Plunged me right into the middle of things and instantly made me want to re-read your last trilogy (and even give ROTA a second read - and this is one my main love-points in a shared world experience as a reader).
And one more thing...opening up so many intriguing questions in the first few chapters of a novel and making me care about itīs main characters promises interesting sub-plots and secrets to be unraveled with further reading, which is something that really gets me into a novel/trilogy. So Iīm a happy camper in that department, too.
The prologue (which I hadnīt read before) was awesome, canīt remember ever finding trolls in a novel so scary. And Cale? Letīs just say viewing him through the young halflingīs eyes was quite a re-introduction to the character, immediately raising a screaming gaggle of questions and establishing just how much has happened to Cale so far, but that the character still has a lot of potential (you sort of did that for me with Riven by introducing his dogs last time, btw). Still digging Cale? Check!
So, to summarize these first impressions...
Holy Kemp! I love it, and I wouldnīt have expected to do so (story wise). You excel in the shady style (excuse the pun) of writing and I am very happily surprised to find so many "colours" in the shadows. |
| PaulSKemp |
Posted - 17 Nov 2006 : 14:02:43
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
It means that the lore provided in ROTA may be wrong on the basis that the person who said it might be wrong or saying deliberate untruths. There's a difference between a character of the Realms stating a 'truth' and a real person or gaming sourcebook making a comment on an aspect of the Realms. It's called the 'unreliable narrator' and it's not used enough in the Realms where absolutes are dangerously low on wiggle-room quotient.
-- George Krashos
Quite so on all counts.
|
| George Krashos |
Posted - 17 Nov 2006 : 12:43:05
quote:
Originally posted by Atticus
In ROTA it said that Mystra's Denial was a hoax and the real reason why high level spells were no longer possible was not because Mystra dosent allow it, it was because when Shar split the Weave after Karsus's death neather the Weave or the Shadow Weave could support high level spells because it is the Origanal Weave split in two, making both sides weaker.
Does this mean the Shadovar are unaware about this or is ROTA wrong?
It means that the lore provided in ROTA may be wrong on the basis that the person who said it might be wrong or saying deliberate untruths. There's a difference between a character of the Realms stating a 'truth' and a real person or gaming sourcebook making a comment on an aspect of the Realms. It's called the 'unreliable narrator' and it's not used enough in the Realms where absolutes are dangerously low on wiggle-room quotient.
-- George Krashos
|
| Braveheart |
Posted - 17 Nov 2006 : 09:26:54
quote:
Originally posted by PaulSKemp
quote:
Originally posted by Braveheart
Thanks for the tip!
But what about the length of the book? Is this a new doctrine by WotC?
Sorry, BH. I missed that one.
350-odd pages is standard for RSE trilogies (which this is). Otherwise, the 312-320 range is standard.
Ah, I could've thought about that myself... Thanks Paul! |
| Atticus |
Posted - 17 Nov 2006 : 01:40:29
quote:
Well, the Shadow Weave sits in the interstices of the Weave. To the extent a portion of the Weave is made unavailable due to Mystra's Denial, then it seems to me that the interstices of that portion of the Weave are likewise made unavailable. In that way, Mystra's Denial indirectly denies 10th level and higher spells to even those who cast using the Shadow Weave.
I had a question about this.
To be up to speed on the Shadovar I read Return of the Archwizards right before Shadowbred came out and this quote is confusing me.
In ROTA it said that Mystra's Denial was a hoax and the real reason why high level spells were no longer possible was not because Mystra dosent allow it, it was because when Shar split the Weave after Karsus's death neather the Weave or the Shadow Weave could support high level spells because it is the Origanal Weave split in two, making both sides weaker.
Does this mean the Shadovar are unaware about this or is ROTA wrong?
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 17 Nov 2006 : 00:18:54
quote:
Originally posted by PaulSKemp
Another neat (at least I think so) crossover -- read page 88 (I think) of Champions of Ruin. There are a lot of "Shadowbred" plot points implied/raised in that entry about Shar (note the mention of the mysterious priest, the secret temple, etc.).
'Twas pg. 88.
There's a little on pg. 89 also.
|
| Lameth |
Posted - 16 Nov 2006 : 19:04:05
Great story so far. I liked it from the start.
Tomorrow I`ll be going to England for the weekend and will take the book with me. |
| PaulSKemp |
Posted - 16 Nov 2006 : 14:20:37
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Rad
I loved how the scene with Magadon was written (first person), and how it was all surreal. I could feel the tension and fear as he didn't understand all his physical changes and then jumped up at the hatch in the door! eek!
LR,
I'm really pleased to hear that the first person worked for you. Conveniently enought, the first person issue relates to your question about deviation from the style guide. Ordinarily, WotC discourages first person altogether (except for an occasional short story) and certainly discourages moving from third past to first present in the same novel. So that's one thing. There is yet another deviation forthcoming (this one of subject matter), but I don't want to ruin it for you by mentioning it.
As for the drug use, that's never been an issue. Of course, I don't glorify it or dwell on it (except in Elyril's case, since she's an addict). Instead, it is portrayed as a weakness/flaw.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Rad
The feeling and flavour of Shar really comes through, and a nice feel of organization and co-operation when it mentioned how Rivalen united all the Sharran cells in Sembia.
Another neat (at least I think so) crossover -- read page 88 (I think) of Champions of Ruin. There are a lot of "Shadowbred" plot points implied/raised in that entry about Shar (note the mention of the mysterious priest, the secret temple, etc.). |
| PaulSKemp |
Posted - 16 Nov 2006 : 13:46:11
quote:
Originally posted by Braveheart
Thanks for the tip!
But what about the length of the book? Is this a new doctrine by WotC?
Sorry, BH. I missed that one.
350-odd pages is standard for RSE trilogies (which this is). Otherwise, the 312-320 range is standard. |
| Braveheart |
Posted - 16 Nov 2006 : 11:59:19
quote:
Originally posted by PaulSKemp
quote:
Originally posted by Braveheart
Paul, I am wondering what you had to do so that the pagecount of your book wasn't limited to 312 .
The map on the first page is great (I love maps), the prologue (which I haven't read beforehand) gives you a view of how normal people see Cale now (which is quite sobering after the last trilogy). The constant references to other trilogies and characters is something that I love about the Realms, although it's probably getting more and more difficult to get everything right.
As I'm writting these lines, I was wondering if there were any incidents at the City of Shade in the Year of Rogue Dragons. Or were the dragons sensible enough to avoid certain death at the hands of the Shadow Weave?
Braveheart,
I'd defer to Eric Boyd (who did substantial work on the Realmswide effects of the dracorage in "Dragons of Faerun") on that question. In my mind, the answer is: Perhaps, but nothing Telemont and the Twelve couldn't handle.
Thanks for the tip!
But what about the length of the book? Is this a new doctrine by WotC? |
| Lord Rad |
Posted - 15 Nov 2006 : 23:49:39
Yay! I was waiting for Magadon to turn up ever since the mention of the "mind mage" earlier. Again, a nice subtle mention of past events with the slaad, sojourner, Riven etc. as Magadon is introduced.
I was totally engrossed in this chapter with reading of the merchants and how Magadon tried to place an illusion over his horns. Very eerie scene when the camp goes quiet! 
Nice to catch up with Cale again in chapter 4, and with Varra too, who i'd completely forgotten about. Quite a solemn mood in this scene.
I loved how the scene with Magadon was written (first person), and how it was all surreal. I could feel the tension and fear as he didn't understand all his physical changes and then jumped up at the hatch in the door! eek!
And again, thrown into a chapter cliffhanger! |
| Lord Rad |
Posted - 15 Nov 2006 : 23:44:47
Onto chapter 2: Great scene where Rivalen kills Selkirk. Very clean and tailored. His facination for coins is quite a nice touch to his character too. The bit with stripping out his shadow to do his bidding was also really well done. I'm really enjoying this character 
One thing i'll say about the book so far is that it's got a much darker and eerie feel to it (although I get that in all Paul's books). The feeling and flavour of Shar really comes through, and a nice feel of organization and co-operation when it mentioned how Rivalen united all the Sharran cells in Sembia.
Paul, you mentioned before about stepping away from WotC's style guide...is this their code of ethics too? I wondered how the minddust was received by WotC, as it's quite a taboo subject as far as WotC novels have been in the past?
Quite a tense moment with the servant being pressured into taking some minddust too. I loved when Kefil ripped into his shadow! Damn scary too! |
| PaulSKemp |
Posted - 15 Nov 2006 : 22:18:35
quote:
Originally posted by Braveheart
Paul, I am wondering what you had to do so that the pagecount of your book wasn't limited to 312 .
The map on the first page is great (I love maps), the prologue (which I haven't read beforehand) gives you a view of how normal people see Cale now (which is quite sobering after the last trilogy). The constant references to other trilogies and characters is something that I love about the Realms, although it's probably getting more and more difficult to get everything right.
As I'm writting these lines, I was wondering if there were any incidents at the City of Shade in the Year of Rogue Dragons. Or were the dragons sensible enough to avoid certain death at the hands of the Shadow Weave?
Braveheart,
I'd defer to Eric Boyd (who did substantial work on the Realmswide effects of the dracorage in "Dragons of Faerun") on that question. In my mind, the answer is: Perhaps, but nothing Telemont and the Twelve couldn't handle. |
| Braveheart |
Posted - 15 Nov 2006 : 09:44:14
Paul, I am wondering what you had to do so that the pagecount of your book wasn't limited to 312 .
The map on the first page is great (I love maps), the prologue (which I haven't read beforehand) gives you a view of how normal people see Cale now (which is quite sobering after the last trilogy). The constant references to other trilogies and characters is something that I love about the Realms, although it's probably getting more and more difficult to get everything right.
As I'm writting these lines, I was wondering if there were any incidents at the City of Shade in the Year of Rogue Dragons. Or were the dragons sensible enough to avoid certain death at the hands of the Shadow Weave? |
| PaulSKemp |
Posted - 14 Nov 2006 : 13:46:44
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Rad
Made me laugh too about how he ran through gnats with his mouth open I wonder Paul, is this from a personal childhood memory?
Well, I've inadvertently eaten my share of bugs, but nothing like Aril's experience. |
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