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T O P I C    R E V I E W
Mace Hammerhand Posted - 17 Aug 2006 : 14:25:49
to test the capabilities of my players' characters?

As I mentioned before, the group I DM switched only recently to 3.5.

My problem now is assessing the party's strength. They are quite powerful due to various items I introduced back in 2nd edition cuz I thought them cool storywise.

Now to actually make a proper estimate of what they are capable of taking out I want, during our next game-day, to basically clobber it out, so to speak.

Naturaly I will not take monsters they might encounter.

Is this wise?
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Kalin Agrivar Posted - 26 Oct 2006 : 15:56:17
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
I think a beholder is one of the very few monsters that can keep a whole adventure party on the defence for rounds and rounds. great opponent. My players faced a few of them already and they killed only 1 so far. That was not because they could/should not, it was beause they were too scared to actually try in honest....



the beholder is one of the few monsters left I have seen experience players still fear...even compared to fiends and dragons...

in Spelljammer that is a monster called a thagar (sp?), also known as the beholder eater...a CN aberration immune to about all the beholder's powers, we befriended a family of them in one campaign to assult a beholder city in the Greypeaks mountains
Ergdusch Posted - 26 Oct 2006 : 15:43:10
quote:
Originally posted by Kalin Agrivar




did you use the beholder flight advantage to stay out of the way of melee attacks?

I'm also a big fan of using the beholder's charm and telekinesis powers to use other party members as human shields
[/quote]

I think a beholder is one of the very few monsters that can keep a whole adventure party on the defence for rounds and rounds. great opponent. My players faced a few of them already and they killed only 1 so far. That was not because they could/should not, it was beause they were too scared to actually try in honest....
Kalin Agrivar Posted - 26 Oct 2006 : 15:35:41
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand

They didn't even close to melee range...phantasmal killer is a ... well...killer if you fail your safe



true enough
Mace Hammerhand Posted - 26 Oct 2006 : 15:33:52
They didn't even close to melee range...phantasmal killer is a ... well...killer if you fail your safe
Kalin Agrivar Posted - 26 Oct 2006 : 15:28:59
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
It was an arena style combat, as such it cannot be rated as a true combat encounter, of course I will try to rip the PCs a new one should they ever meet a beholder...plus I will make sure the anti magic ray is focused on the caster(s)



did you use the beholder flight advantage to stay out of the way of melee attacks?

I'm also a big fan of using the beholder's charm and telekinesis powers to use other party members as human shields
Mace Hammerhand Posted - 26 Oct 2006 : 15:26:54
quote:
Originally posted by Reefy
As an aside, taking down a beholder in two rounds - ouch.



It was an arena style combat, as such it cannot be rated as a true combat encounter, of course I will try to rip the PCs a new one should they ever meet a beholder...plus I will make sure the anti magic ray is focused on the caster(s)
Reefy Posted - 26 Oct 2006 : 00:52:31
quote:
Originally posted by Kalin Agrivar

and it is not about forcing them to do other things..it's common sense...if choose light armour for speed, and two weapons for the extra attack, expect to have a low AC and role play accordingly...every character have strengths and weaknesses...more speed and attacks:less defence

I think the trap is, as a DM, to almost "Monty Haul" them with protective items to cover their weaknesses...thus unbalancing the game...



Agreed, this is an important point to remember.
As an aside, taking down a beholder in two rounds - ouch.
Mace Hammerhand Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 16:46:08
I'll consider it...first I gotta see how the old characters fare against their young clones
Kalin Agrivar Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 16:42:39
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand

Should I ever buy a new RPG it would be RuneQuest... but I doubt I will.



thats cool..but the idea is still there, that armour still gives damage reduction...

remember the old "weapon damage type vs armour type" like piercing vs chain and bludgeoning vs plate? maybe a damage reduction like "DR 2/piercing"...

that house rule should balance the warriors vs the others...and give them a bit more of a higher survivability rate
Mace Hammerhand Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 16:38:10
Should I ever buy a new RPG it would be RuneQuest... but I doubt I will.
Kalin Agrivar Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 16:27:11
a friend of mine baught the Conan book...we don't actually RPG with it...we just use it as optional material to add on to the game...some of it's classes aren't that bad...but it is pricey though (at least in Canadian $)
Mace Hammerhand Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 16:25:18
I won't buy a new RPG, I already sold more RPGs than are known to newbies
Kalin Agrivar Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 16:24:04
UE stuff? *pre-seniors moment*

well, it isn't WotC rules..but in the Conan RPG they use a mix of pary rules and armour gives damage reduction, there is no "AC"
Mace Hammerhand Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 16:21:49
I'm still thinking of adding defense ability to AC, similar, but watered down, to the UE defense stuff
Kalin Agrivar Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 16:18:55
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Nonetheless, high powered enemies are, IMO, the core of real climatic battles.



true enough
Mace Hammerhand Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 16:16:09
He would've...had he been from Krynn, then again the druid had pissed off Hiddukel before, why do you think the god wanted him dead. The mage kept his end of the bargain, it was never mentioned anything about killing the druid TWICE.

Nonetheless, high powered enemies are, IMO, the core of real climatic battles.
Kalin Agrivar Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 15:56:35
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand

I really don't care about imbalances, if I can tell an awesome story.

Besides, the mage was working WITH the PCs afterwards, even a god should try to cheat one pissed off mage who just wants to go home, especially if the mage is CN



I'm sure that mage should have expected it, from Hiddukel!
Mace Hammerhand Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 15:52:14
I really don't care about imbalances, if I can tell an awesome story.

Besides, the mage was working WITH the PCs afterwards, even a god should try to cheat one pissed off mage who just wants to go home, especially if the mage is CN
Kalin Agrivar Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 15:50:24
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand

The party followed a challenge by said wizard, he chose the battlefield.

As for too powerful, yes and no, TPK was never my intention, I wanted to show them that combat was NOT an option when dealing with this threat. After the party's druid changed himself into a statue and got disintegrated (the wizard's goal was to kill the druid, after Hiddukel had promised him safe return to Athas should he kill said druid), the wizard left. Through a big-ass stroke of luck the druid came back...the story goes on.
Point is I wanted them to know that combat was not an option.



yeah, players usually screw up the best of plans

I'm just saying a 17th lv wizard has access to 7th-8th lv spells while a 12-13 party has 6th-7th lv magics...depending on the wizard's spell list, that can be a big imbalance...
Mace Hammerhand Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 15:43:27
The party followed a challenge by said wizard, he chose the battlefield.

As for too powerful, yes and no, TPK was never my intention, I wanted to show them that combat was NOT an option when dealing with this threat. After the party's druid changed himself into a statue and got disintegrated (the wizard's goal was to kill the druid, after Hiddukel had promised him safe return to Athas should he kill said druid), the wizard left. Through a big-ass stroke of luck the druid came back...the story goes on.
Point is I wanted them to know that combat was not an option.
Kalin Agrivar Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 15:39:25
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand

Worst for the PCs. I managed to achieve a TPK with a lvl 17 wizard against a party that consisted of 12-13th level chars...of course I had the spell sequence of what the wizard did plotted out days before the actual game.



2 thoughts:

I think one 17th lv mage is too powerful a challenge against 12-13th lv players, 2E or 3E

but moreso, was that party taking on that mage in his own "lair"?
Mace Hammerhand Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 15:35:53
Worst for the PCs. I managed to achieve a TPK with a lvl 17 wizard against a party that consisted of 12-13th level chars...of course I had the spell sequence of what the wizard did plotted out days before the actual game.
Kalin Agrivar Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 15:33:09
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand

Even in 2nd edition time I said the worst thing a DM could place against the PCs is a group of NPCs.



worse for the challenge? or for the equipment they picked up afterwords?
Mace Hammerhand Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 15:31:45
Even in 2nd edition time I said the worst thing a DM could place against the PCs is a group of NPCs.
Kalin Agrivar Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 15:19:19
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand

Funny thing is: back in 2nd edition bracers of defense AC 2 were necessary and not that powerful, now Bracers of defense + 8 give an incredible edge. Neither rogue nor wizard wear armor, but with high enough dex (see magic item buyage) and a ring of protection + 2 you have people running around "unarmored" with an AC of 24 or higher, while the fighters who do have mithral chains/plate magically modified have AC 22 or so. Really weird.



Braciers of AC 2 weren't that powerful?

yeah...almsot every 3E game I'v ran or played in the mages, healers and rogues have the same or better AC than the Fighters...while the fighter's movement gets bogged down in armour...

I think that as we get to know the monsters and rules "in our guts" this should change...rememeber the days when you knew the capabilities of a bullette or illithid and knew exactly how they would interact with your players?
Mace Hammerhand Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 15:13:50
Funny thing is: back in 2nd edition bracers of defense AC 2 were necessary and not that powerful, now Bracers of defense + 8 give an incredible edge. Neither rogue nor wizard wear armor, but with high enough dex (see magic item buyage) and a ring of protection + 2 you have people running around "unarmored" with an AC of 24 or higher, while the fighters who do have mithral chains/plate magically modified have AC 22 or so. Really weird.
Kalin Agrivar Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 15:04:52
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand

They are doing their best, but I won't push their nose into the other options, like amulet of natural armor. What's curious tho is that the mage and the rogue have so incredibly high armor classes it ain't even funny



I have noticed that too

and it is not about forcing them to do other things..it's common sense...if choose light armour for speed, and two weapons for the extra attack, expect to have a low AC and role play accordingly...every character have strengths and weaknesses...more speed and attacks:less defence

I think the trap is, as a DM, to almost "Monty Haul" them with protective items to cover their weaknesses...thus unbalancing the game...
Mace Hammerhand Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 15:01:04
They are doing their best, but I won't push their nose into the other options, like amulet of natural armor. What's curious tho is that the mage and the rogue have so incredibly high armor classes it ain't even funny
Kalin Agrivar Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 14:51:59
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
That depends, if you use the option in UE it might still work, and yes, items should not belong to the powerlevel of a character. The general problem I face now is with people being equipped with 2 weapons or 2-handed weapons. They deal incredible amounts of damage and hit most of the time, but their AC sucks because of the lack of a shield plus low dex scores. There is only so much you can do with magical items, and I am not sure how to improve this. Sure they can hit a tough mob, but they will get shredded.



I'v had that too...especially with the "monkey grip" feat, where they can weild much larger weapons (had a size L half-ogre fighter once with monkey grip and a size H goliath hammer doing over 30 HP with an average hit)

but IMO, let them die if they are concentrating too much on offence and ignoring their defence...the players eithor learn or they don't...that is not a balance problem
Mace Hammerhand Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 14:47:18
quote:
Originally posted by Kalin Agrivar
out of the many problems I am having, is that (in my understanding) even equipment now is considered in the "power base" of a character...thus they need a certain amount of equipment to be at their proper power level...and if you are running a game thta is a low-magic world or low-tech world...does the game fundamantally become unbalanced?



That depends, if you use the option in UE it might still work, and yes, items should not belong to the powerlevel of a character. The general problem I face now is with people being equipped with 2 weapons or 2-handed weapons. They deal incredible amounts of damage and hit most of the time, but their AC sucks because of the lack of a shield plus low dex scores. There is only so much you can do with magical items, and I am not sure how to improve this. Sure they can hit a tough mob, but they will get shredded.

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