| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 00:11:47
Since I have been bored whilst my computer is out of service, I sat down with a notebook and figured up the elven population of various regions, in regards to recent posts wondering how many elves are around to repopulate various elven settlements. I also figured the half elf populations as well, since this might come up.
Cormyr
54,432 Elves
136,080 Half-elves (man that Azoun gets around . . .  )
Dalelands
24,101 Elves
Evermeet
1,658,880 Elves
Moonshaes
6,804 Half-elves
20,412 Elves
Calimshan
53,395 Half-elves
Tethyr
113,139 Elves
High Forest
15,124 Elves
1,120 Half-elves
Savage Frontier
28,220 Half-elves
22,576 Elves
Silver Marches
10,908 Half-elves
21,836 Elves
Sword Coast North
6,609 Half-elves
26,432 Elves
Waterdeep
13,4478 Elves
66,139 Half-elves
Halruaa
16,761 Elves
16,761 Half-elves
Luiren
16,760 Elves
8,380 Half-elves
Aglarond
381,024 Half-elves
13,089 Elves
The Vast
13,089 Half-elves
39,267 Elves
Vilhon Reach
55,058 Elves
Western Heartlands
65,664 Half-elves
114,912 Elves
These figures are from the FRCS so it doesn't take into account any population changes from the Phaerimm War in the North or the Crusade, which might alter a few of these regions. It does take into account the events of Evermeet and Death of the Dragon, however.
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 08 May 2020 : 09:07:04
quote:
Originally posted by Master_Sylvius
These numbers appear to be off from those presented in the FRCS on page 199: In 1372, elves count for 5% of Aglarond's population of 1,270,080 which would give us 63 504. These appear to only include those living in Aglarond itself (mainly wild elves).
3e numbers were mostly set to values unrelated to anything before.
quote:
Page 110 of the Unapproachable East might suggest a ratio for elf races in the Yuirwood. Relkar's Foot registers 406 Wild elves for 51 Star Elves. Would we to apply this ratio to the whole elven population of Aglarond, this would give us 56 519 Wild Elves (89% of 63 504) and 6985 Star Elves (11% of 63 504).
You are comparing unrelated values.
After they began to re-refuge out of their hidden refuge? Around 4 dozens who managed to get alive in time from the worst-hit regions makes some sense.
But in the entire last century before they dropped in, the number of Star Elves seen on Faerun was 1 (one). And even then, mostly far from Yuirwood (Sharlarra's stops closest to Aglarond were Rashenmen and Impiltur). |
| Master_Sylvius |
Posted - 05 May 2020 : 16:06:57
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Aglarond
381,024 Half-elves
13,089 Elves
These numbers appear to be off from those presented in the FRCS on page 199: In 1372, elves count for 5% of Aglarond's population of 1,270,080 which would give us 63 504. These appear to only include those living in Aglarond itself (mainly wild elves).
Page 110 of the Unapproachable East might suggest a ratio for elf races in the Yuirwood. Relkar's Foot registers 406 Wild elves for 51 Star Elves. Would we to apply this ratio to the whole elven population of Aglarond, this would give us 56 519 Wild Elves (89% of 63 504) and 6985 Star Elves (11% of 63 504).
No specific entry is made concerning the Star Elf population of Sildeyuir. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 17:52:50
quote:
Originally posted by Aes Tryl
How was that 9 million number derived in the first place?
Bad souce, *wink* another posted that the elven population was 25 percent, after doing caculation of all Elves that were listed , mainland population calculated out to about 9 million. I also reduced the percentage to about 6 percent based of that number and subtracted out Elves of Evermeet.
Somebody gave me bad data by claiming the 25 percent. |
| Aes Tryl |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 17:33:57
How was that 9 million number derived in the first place? |
| Mkhaiwati |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 17:27:00
9 million... hmm....
(from FRCS)
Lake of Steam 1,570,752 humans
Amn 2,459,721 humans
Calimshan 5,019,148 humans
Tethyr 2,866,233 humans
just humans, we have 11,915,854 in just those areas. We haven't touched Waterdeep, Cormyr, Dalelands, Sembia, the Moonsea, Silver Marches, Old Empires, Impiltur, etc, etc, ditto, ditto, so on and so forth.
I think the 9 million number is gone.
Mkhaiwati |
| Aes Tryl |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 10:42:43
Yeah it seems a bit more somehow. . . hmmm by the way the maharabahta, the heroes were God blessed not significant spellcasters themselves (in fact Krishna is a God. . well an aspect anyways of one of the 3 main Hindu Gods, Vishnu and Rama is a famous general destined to kill a demon lord) and Ulysses, a crafty non-magical but god-blessed person, beat Circe by tricking her. Oh and Gandalf's powers were derived from the one God (Eru Iluvater, he was actually a kind of angel known as the Maiar, so actually hes kinda a tricked out cleric |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 21:38:57
Apologies, Jorkens. This really is a discussion I'd like to continue, though not quite so much as to make a new thread. ;)
Anyway...
I wonder if 9 million IS the correct (approximate) population of Faerun? Hm. |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 21:33:16
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
Humpf! Now dwarf in Tethyr. That explain why they are suffering in the hands of the ogre mage´s armie.
I think with the "stinger" scorpion men (isn't "stinger" one of the silliest names of a moster that was supposed to be serious?  ) in one of Shanatar's kingdoms the humanoid army in amn is the least of their worries 
And there should be a dwarf presence in Tethyr just for the existance of lost kingdoms of High and Low Shanatar...And now the Army of Gold marching in.. |
| Chosen of Moradin |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 21:29:42
Humpf! Now dwarf in Tethyr. That explain why they are suffering in the hands of the ogre mage´s armie. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 21:29:39
Don't drag me into this, those heroes were mentioned after my post and I agree with Kalin on most of those names. Anyway; lets not bog this topic down with this any more than we have. |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 21:23:38
quote:
If you are just analyzing class then yes, a wizard is more powerful..but then that makes a cleric more powerful than a wizard...and no, powerful magic items are getting pretty common now...and the lesser magical items? they now have "wall-mart like" Thayan Enclaves for all your shopping needs...
Sorry, not going to discuss this if you actually acknowledge the terrible state of the modern Realms.
On one hand, you say there are too many high level fighters. Then you say that for a high level fighter to be on par with a Wizard, they need powerful magic items?
For every one of those powerful magical items made, there are 5 equally powerful Wizards who aren't going to give up their XP to make said items. You really can't have it both ways - you can't have a high magic world and then not have a world dominated by magic...
And out of all of the names we named... only one of them was a God. And, as Jorkens pointed out, the majority of heroes you pointed out were post-Christian. Hercules was an immortal son of Zeus, so you can't count him as a typical Fighter, as was Perseus. Aladdin I would consider a rogue, who had help from a LOT of magic...
It just seems what you're looking for really isn't present in the D&D game (of 2E or 3E) - at least, not the established settings. 2E magic was rarer than 3E, though much more powerful in general (which meant it was even more unlikely for Fighters to survive).
Anyway, I'll quit going OT now, too. :)
PS: Sorry if the above post seems snappy at points - I wasn't trying to be! |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 21:09:20
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
I think I was mislead about mainland population. Is it only 9 million?
As for talking about classes I kinda think that belongs in another scroll. I can understand expanding from Elven population to include other races as not straying too far from the idea of just Elven population, to include halflings and draves. Espcially when percentages of population was discussed. Right now based on claims about 76 percent of the population are Drawf, Elf, Half-elf or Halfling, and this just can not be correct.
That is what I thought was wrong from the beginning...if not the actual population # of sentients in an area but the racial composition percentages
and yes it has gone off track, I appologize for that...and I hate getting into what is basically debates of opinion  |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 21:04:58
I think I was mislead about mainland population. Is it only 9 million?
As for talking about classes I kinda think that belongs in another scroll. I can understand expanding from Elven population to include other races as not straying too far from the idea of just Elven population, to include halflings and draves. Espcially when percentages of population was discussed. Right now based on claims about 76 percent of the population are Drawf, Elf, Half-elf or Halfling, and this just can not be correct. |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 21:03:06
quote:
We're analyzing the class, here, not the items or aid they have. Where do you think all of those magical items come from? Wizards. And in the Realms, magical items of significant power are NOT common.
If you are just analyzing class then yes, a wizard is more powerful..but then that makes a cleric more powerful than a wizard...and no, powerful magic items are getting pretty common now...and the lesser magical items? they now have "wall-mart like" Thayan Enclaves for all your shopping needs...
quote:
2E magic was by far more powerful. I have played 2E Wizards for about 10 years, almost exclusively.
I hate getting into the silly "well I'v done this for so long" petty arguement but I'v played wizards for over 20 years...and I'm not bias to any class...it's the role player that makes the class powerful, not the class itself.
And 1st Ed./2nd Ed. magic was not far more powerful than 3rd, it is just the fact that there was so much less magic in 1st/2nd Ed that the use of magic appeared to be more potent...
quote:
Odin was a god of magic and knowledge before all, and always comes out on top. Circe, Merlin, I believe the main protagonist of the Halevala is a spellcaster; the majority of African Epics center around spellcasting over melee; the Mahabharata highlights the supernatural/magical prowess of the epic heroes over all else (and in that culture, deception and illusion are laudable, not wicked). Egyptian mythology is rife with magic spells (Isis resurrecting Osiris, for instance).
I'm no expert on classical mythology but I'm speaking of just of the quote:
heros
, not the gods...Hercules, Jason, Beowulf, Persesus, Arthur, Aladin, Sinbad, Lancelot off the top of my head...they only had their strength or arm and wits themselves...the magic usually came in as supernatural patrons, divine heritage and magical gifts (which is exactly like the fighter and their magical equipment). As you stated before, we are just comparing classes, not the whole package |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 20:59:32
quote:
Originally posted by GOthicDan
That in the Realms, high level spellcasters are categorically more dangerous and numerous than high level fighters. Look at Ed's stories and the like, too ("A Price So High," I believe, has a very important Zhentarim Fighter-type quaking in his boots at the very thought of challenging a Wizard).
No, this is not shown by the stats. Now, I agree that the wizard is more powerful and that more powerful wizards than fighters are in possessions of power in the realms. What is not said is the number of high level fighters; generals, caravan masters, weapon masters and such are often not detailed, but they will exist. We can not read anything about the numbers of each class' members from realms products.
But, we are straying from the topic at hand. |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 20:52:28
And.. We can look at more recent fantasy classics, too.
Gandalf was basically a demigod, and he's the archetypal D&D Wizard.
Elric was renowned for his mastery of spells that his bloodline had long ago forgotten (and only after getting a magical demon-god sword was he able to utilize his melee capabilities to the fullest).
Rand al'Thor? Most powerful channeler ever.
Richard Raal? Renowned for being the first War Wizard in millennia (and for a sword - created by Wizards/magic). |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 20:46:10
Kalevala, right, Jorkens. :)
But thanks for inadvertently helping me out there. ;) |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 20:44:53
quote:
Originally posted by Kalin agrivar
And conversly in most real mythologies and classical fantasy the heros are usually fighters and spellcasters are usually religated to the rare uber-wizard (e.g. Merlin) or more commonly the wicked and/or deceptive foe of the hero...(from greek to norse to arabian tales)
Sorry for always nitpicking.
I would agree if we look on the Christian tradition, but in many of the myths, like the Kalevala the Russian tales, the Irish sagas and the older Nordic it is the warrior with mystical abilities that is the hero. Either bardic or more of a fighter combined with some sort of sorcerous ability, often of a divine source. The same goes for the heroic tales of other continents, much of this has to do with the heroes connection with the gods and his destiny.
When it concerns the rest of your post I agree that the amount of magic is starting to get a bit to much. I like magic a bit of a mystery and something seen as a bit dangerous.
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| GothicDan |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 20:44:28
quote:
Proves what exactly; stats are a sett of game rules and I cant see what they prove in this case.
That in the Realms, high level spellcasters are categorically more dangerous and numerous than high level fighters. Look at Ed's stories and the like, too ("A Price So High," I believe, has a very important Zhentarim Fighter-type quaking in his boots at the very thought of challenging a Wizard).
quote:
I'm not saying you are wrong..I'm just saying you are not giving a fighter credit, especially if the fighter also as magical aid/items (like they all would, especially a high/epic level)
We're analyzing the class, here, not the items or aid they have. Where do you think all of those magical items come from? Wizards. And in the Realms, magical items of significant power are NOT common.
quote:
And there is a bias to spellcasters in the Realms, especially post 3rd Ed...there is so much magic now in the Realms it almost rivals Eberron...There should as many if not more high level warriors in the realms as once upon a time before anyone could cast spells (ahem, sorcerers) wizardry took talent and study and true wizards (vs hedge wizards and dabblers) were a special breed...now in the Realms it's like "Hooked on Wizardry works for me!"
2E magic was by far more powerful. I have played 2E Wizards for about 10 years, almost exclusively.
quote:
And conversly in most real mythologies and classical fantasy the heros are usually fighters and spellcasters are usually religated to the rare uber-wizard (e.g. Merlin) or more commonly the wicked and/or deceptive foe of the hero...(from greek to norse to arabian tales)
Odin was a god of magic and knowledge before all, and always comes out on top. Circe, Merlin, I believe the main protagonist of the Halevala is a spellcaster; the majority of African Epics center around spellcasting over melee; the Mahabharata highlights the supernatural/magical prowess of the epic heroes over all else (and in that culture, deception and illusion are laudable, not wicked). Egyptian mythology is rife with magic spells (Isis resurrecting Osiris, for instance).
That World Epics class I took seems to have paid off. ;) |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 20:36:16
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Many, many low level wizards die. And at the middling levels, the curve changes dramatically, because Wizards get neat little tricks like being able to teleport away from danger, summon minions to do their job for them, scry from afar on situations, etc.
And you don't need to believe it - the Realms' NPC stats prove this. ;)
I'm not saying you are wrong..I'm just saying you are not giving a fighter credit, especially if the fighter also as magical aid/items (like they all would, especially a high/epic level)
And there is a bias to spellcasters in the Realms, especially post 3rd Ed...there is so much magic now in the Realms it almost rivals Eberron...There should as many if not more high level warriors in the realms as once upon a time before anyone could cast spells (ahem, sorcerers) wizardry took talent and study and true wizards (vs hedge wizards and dabblers) were a special breed...now in the Realms it's like "Hooked on Wizardry works for me!"
And conversly in most real mythologies and classical fantasy the heros are usually fighters and spellcasters are usually religated to the rare uber-wizard (e.g. Merlin) or more commonly the wicked and/or deceptive foe of the hero...(from greek to norse to arabian tales) |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 20:36:03
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
And you don't need to believe it - the Realms' NPC stats prove this. ;)
Proves what exactly; stats are a sett of game rules and I cant see what they prove in this case. |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 20:29:54
quote:
I'm not sure I agree with that...the more you fight the better you get at fighting...and if you are foolish enough to choose a fight you can't win when your a high level, well you die...just like a wizard would die against a superior opponent. On the other hand I'm sure more low level wizards die than fighters...
the only inevitable that hurts a fighter (physical combatant) vs a spell caster is old age physically weakening you...thus why there should be more epic level warriors among the dwarves (and to a lesser extent elves and gnomes
Many, many low level wizards die. And at the middling levels, the curve changes dramatically, because Wizards get neat little tricks like being able to teleport away from danger, summon minions to do their job for them, scry from afar on situations, etc. By sheer dint of the fact that Wizards tend to have MUCH higher Int's, and slightly higher Wis's on average than Fighters, they are MUCH less likely to be foolish. Statistically speaking, not a case-by-case situation.
And you don't need to believe it - the Realms' NPC stats prove this. ;) |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 20:21:22
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Yes, in certain cases, for the reasons I stated previously. Granted, I think that the longer raced ones have more reason to have non-Wizard spellcasters, but also - Dwarves fight. A lot. The more you fight, the more likely you are to die before you reach Epic levels. Wizards don't have to do that.
I'm not sure I agree with that...the more you fight the better you get at fighting...and if you are foolish enough to choose a fight you can't win when your a high level, well you die...just like a wizard would die against a superior opponent. On the other hand I'm sure more low level wizards die than fighters...
the only inevitable that hurts a fighter (physical combatant) vs a spell caster is old age physically weakening you...thus why there should be more epic level warriors among the dwarves (and to a lesser extent elves and gnomes) |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 20:14:37
quote:
I do agree that the level limits on the demi-human races in 1st/2nd Ed. have not been fully removed in 3rd Ed.
They're gone. But we still see their effects - as well we should. It annoys me that some NPCs' levels were so drastically changed (like Manshoon).
quote:
but I also I believe the greater reason why that there are no epic level dwarves, halflings and gnomes is what I said before in the other thread...the writers and designers for the Realms have and still do treat the non-elven races as second string players...especially in the last few years...it is pretty na�ve to think the non-elves, especially the long lived ones, would not have epic heroes and leaders
Yes, in certain cases, for the reasons I stated previously. Granted, I think that the longer raced ones have more reason to have non-Wizard spellcasters, but also - Dwarves fight. A lot. The more you fight, the more likely you are to die before you reach Epic levels. Wizards don't have to do that. |
| Chosen of Moradin |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 19:06:44
Hail to the Dwarven list:
Chult
22.032 wild dwarves
Damara
79.315
Vaasa
43.632
The Dalelands
6.026
The Hordelands
1.335
Moonshae Isles
13.608
The Moonsea
87.264
The Savage Frontier
28.224
Silver Marches
218.160
The Sword Coast North
66.096
Waterdeep
134.784
Chessenta
169.344
Unther
127.915
The Great Rift
1.256.602
Halruaa
83.808
Thay
196.992
The Vilhon Reach
110.117
Chondath
19.829
Sespech
19.051
Turmish
152.410
Western Heartlands
16.416
All in all, a total of 2.852.960 well counted. 
Sources: Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 3rd Edition
Chosen of Moradin
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| Aes Tryl |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 14:25:01
Tis a sad combination of both, all the wee people in the realms suffer from certain prejudices eh, vertically challenged anyone? |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 14:18:25
I do agree that the level limits on the demi-human races in 1st/2nd Ed. have not been fully removed in 3rd Ed.
but I also I believe the greater reason why that there are no epic level dwarves, halflings and gnomes is what I said before in the other thread...the writers and designers for the Realms have and still do treat the non-elven races as second string players...especially in the last few years...it is pretty naïve to think the non-elves, especially the long lived ones, would not have epic heroes and leaders
|
| GothicDan |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 10:21:25
Pft, Bruenor's low level. :) |
| Aes Tryl |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 10:13:40
Thats the way it should be. . . unfortunately there isn't an overking for the dwarves in Faerun. . . If i recall correctly even the Great Rift is run by a something like a Council of Elders. Go Bruenor?? lol |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 10:07:29
Cool, glad to help. :)
I do look forward to 3E updating some more of the epic-type demihumans, though. In my own campaign world, I tried to have at least a few iconic (Epic or near-epic) aspects of each race. The Overthane of the Dwarves, for example, is 25th level in my world, the Archon of the Pillar of Forges is 20th level; the High King of the Elves is 22nd level, the Grand Mage is 25th level. |
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