| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Wandering_mage |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 21:50:54
Welcome class! Today I would like to open a forum on the tactical and strategic use of magic in the Realms. Examples of favorite magic combat stunts and tricks from novels are welcome as are personal accounts of magic use. Dm's don't hold back please add your info.
Now if any one has any interesting FR lore based magical attacks/tricks that would be of interest please do share.
I am especially interested in favorite combat techniques used by Elven mages, the Chosen, Red Wizards, Zhents, Shadovar, regionally based human mages, and lastly Dwarven mages.
The goal is to share experiences read or used to inspire creativity in FR campaign-based gamers playing style. And more importantly...mine.  Please chat it up! |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 25 Jun 2011 : 02:37:11
I have quite a few third-party books myself, and I like some of them as much if not more than the WotC ones. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 25 Jun 2011 : 01:53:05
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Not any slight against WotC designers, or any other company that does D&D-ish things, but I think actual, dedicated, fan-made products always have more detail than their official counterparts.
I've seen some really good third party material... The Monsternomicon volumes, for the 3.5 version of Iron Kingdoms, are in my opinion some of the best monster books we've had since 2E. Some of the Pathfinder monster stuff is really awesome, too, particularly the Revisited line.
The two Monsternomicon volumes, as I see it, remain some of the best monster books in the entire history of role-playing games. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 24 Jun 2011 : 18:16:45
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've seen some really good third party material... The Monsternomicon volumes, for the 3.5 version of Iron Kingdoms, are in my opinion some of the best monster books we've had since 2E. Some of the Pathfinder monster stuff is really awesome, too, particularly the Revisited line.
I'm not contesting the quality of fan material; I'm just saying that there was some really good stuff out there, and some of it is better than fan-made stuff.
-Personally, I think a lot of third-party material is fan stuff, just fan stuff with a higher budget! |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Jun 2011 : 18:18:55
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Not any slight against WotC designers, or any other company that does D&D-ish things, but I think actual, dedicated, fan-made products always have more detail than their official counterparts.
I've seen some really good third party material... The Monsternomicon volumes, for the 3.5 version of Iron Kingdoms, are in my opinion some of the best monster books we've had since 2E. Some of the Pathfinder monster stuff is really awesome, too, particularly the Revisited line.
I'm not contesting the quality of fan material; I'm just saying that there was some really good stuff out there, and some of it is better than fan-made stuff. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 23 Jun 2011 : 17:57:55
-Not any slight against WotC designers, or any other company that does D&D-ish things, but I think actual, dedicated, fan-made products always have more detail than their official counterparts. |
| althen artren |
Posted - 23 Jun 2011 : 02:26:51
Dicefreaks has some neat stuff.
I printed out their versions of ghost,
vampire, death knight templates due
to the level of thought put into them. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 21 Jun 2011 : 17:49:08
-Yes, I think that's it! |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 21 Jun 2011 : 00:49:47
Was it Dicefreaks you were thinking of?
http://dicefreaks.superforums.org/index.php |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 20 Jun 2011 : 05:38:11
-Does anybody have any recollection of "overdeity rules/stats" that a website made, about three years ago, at the very earliest? It's not a website I remember the name of, nor was one that is relatively mainstream (ie, the WotC boards, or Paizo, or setting-specific main fansites)...Ring a bell for anyone? Something with 'freaks', like 'D&D freaks' or something? |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 20 Jun 2011 : 05:23:45
Actually, there are some clues to overdivine status in the Deities & Demigods book and also the Faiths & Pantheons book.
We know that they are essentially "epic" gods with divine rank of 21+.
We know that they are beyond the ken of mortals. They do not require worshipers, they do not grant spells, they do not answer queries. If they are known at all, it is to a handful of scholars. (see Faiths & Pantheons p. 6)
While there are no official rules for overdeities, we could extrapolate that when a god exceeds divine rank 20, he ascends to overgod status and is subject to a different set of rules. These rules may be analogous to the way in which the epic rules compare to the rules for character classes below level 21.
You could surmise that there are overdivine feats and salient overdivine abilities. One such ability we could reasonably construe to be "create crystal sphere" or "create universe."
Overgods may similarly have portfolios. And such overdivine portfolios might include being the overgod of a specific crystal sphere. I don't think that necessarily implies that the overgod assigned to the crystal sphere always created the sphere, but it follows that it might often be the case.
I don't think that we can assume that all crystal spheres have overgods, or that all overgods create crystal spheres. We only know of two spheres for sure that have them. The other crystal spheres may or may not have been created by overgods. If so the overgods that created them may still be watching over them in secret or may have long since abandonned them. New overgods may have taken over guardianship of a sphere. I don't think we can say for sure either way.
Another possibility is that in order to ascend to overdivine status, a god must succeed at some kind of epic, overdivine quest, feat or trial. Like a PhD thesis or an Eagle Scout project. This would be analogous to the quest that a mortal must undergo in order to become a god.
Faiths & Avatars p.4 tells us that "a mortal attempts to become a deity through the accumulation of power, the use of arcane rituals, the use of artifacts, the sponsorship of an already-established power, or some combination of these." It goes on to say in game terms that, after achieving sufficient epic statistics, a character must spend a great deal of time researching methods to attain divinity, come up with a plan for doing so, and confront great peril in order to execute that plan. The plan must always involve at least two of these three things: the performance of a specially researched ceremony or spell of elaborate complexity, great cost, and great personal danger; the use of an artifact; or the sponsorship of a deity.
By analogy we can postulate that a god can ascend to overdivine status by reaching divine rank 20 (and then some) and then perform some kind of epic ritual, quest or some such to complete his ascension.
Obviously, the first thing that comes to mind is that the creation of a crystal sphere may be exactly the type of ritual needed to complete such a hyperapotheosis. I doubt that this is the only method. But it may be a common one. Similarly, the destruction of a crystal sphere could be another method. We know of one crystal sphere that has been shattered. It is possible that a god chose to break that sphere to complete his over-ascension. There may be other suitable feats, quests and rituals.
One way that seems to work is to be the creator of a race or head of a racial pantheon. Gods like Gruumsh, Corellon, Moradin, and Annam may be well on their way to ascending. A critical part of this ascention may require spreading your race to other worlds and achieving a certain critical mass of worship. Say, perhaps, 5 billion, 100 billion or a trillian beings.
It occurs to me that Annam, has retreated from the world. Many think this is because he is depressed and in mourning for his betrayal by Othea. But I suspect it is because he has secretly begun his ascension ritual or is researching the process and so has cloistered himself away.
The god that created humans is not evident in the universe. Presumably that god has long ago ascended and all memory of him (or her) seems to be lost. Some have speculated that this ascension was quite recent and that god may even have been Ao.
Another candidate for overdivine status is the World Serpent. It seems likely that he ascended around 30,000 years ago or so. He's no longer around. Although, it is likely that his former "body" has metamorphosized into the World Serpent Inn and acts now as a transitive plane that links distant planes and universes together.
Overgods are probably so elevated above humans and gods that they are in a higher realm of reality. They probably see the universe through the eyes of a 4th dimensional, 5th dimensional, or nth higher dimensional perspective. They are as far beyond us as we are to ants or bacteria. Their concerns are so far beyond mortal concerns, that they can't be bothered to keep up with the material plane.
Imagine an ant whose responsibility it is to tend the fungus gardens of an anthill or shepherd the milk-giving avids. Compare that to a tax attorney trying to navigate a multinational corporate merger. The ant may be able to perceive that a human exists, but cannot conceive of what an attorney is, what taxes are, or corporations or mergers. Similarly, it may be impossible for mortals to comprehend what overgods really are or do. But it's possible that overgods keep the multiverse going. They keep the Far Realms from impinging on the borders of our reality, or keep other universes from invading ours, or dark, incomprehensible forces from corrupting and destroying our reality.
Recently elevated overgods, overgods of low overdivine rank, say DVR 21-25 (demi-overgod) may still be fond of the material world and may maintain some kind of link to it. Such as choosing to watch over a crystal sphere. Perhaps the higher the overdivine rank achieved, the more remote and distant from this reality an overgod retreats.
And to use (or abuse) the ant analogy further, there are certainly humans that are entomologists who study and care for ants and anthills. Not to mention kids with ant farms. Similarly, some overgods may be concerned with the material plane as a job or as a hobby. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 20 Jun 2011 : 04:45:41
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Why did they feel the need to create a being whom Ao must answer to? Isn't Ao more than enough?
-Agreed, in that the concept of Ao's boss is unnecessary, and does too much to "Humanize" Ao, I think. And then, of course, it gets silly when you say, "Well, the deities have Ao as a boss. Ao has a Luminous Being as Ao's boss. That Luminous Being may have a boss. And that boss a boss..."  |
| The Sage |
Posted - 19 Jun 2011 : 13:58:04
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Sage,
Shouldn't there be a basis, or a less vague concept of the nature of an overgod? I mean, how can one say X and Y are overgods if he has not a mote of idea what the concept of an overgod means? By naming something, (while it doesn't necessarily mean you know everything about that something) you have a more or less clear idea what that something is---its nature and its relevance to you and others.
I suppose this comes back to my belief on whether we, as PCs, should be aware that creator and/or overgods even exist in-game.
As I noted earlier, with the revelation of Ao after the Time of Troubles among the mortal Realms populace, the creator god wasn't even a known quantity in the divine dynamic of Realmspace. Mayhap those with an intimate connection to a divine power, like the Chosen, I suppose, were aware of "something" beyond the pantheon of standard deities. But that's where I'd leave knowledge of a creator god among the mortal populace of the Realms.
...
As an aside, I would think that if a campaign demanded the acknowledgement of a Realms creator god, like Ao, then the establishment of a vague concept for such an entity would probably be required. But I'd imagine that would be something only for individual DMs to determine. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 19 Jun 2011 : 05:21:19
Sage,
Shouldn't there be a basis, or a less vague concept of the nature of an overgod? I mean, how can one say X and Y are overgods if he has not a mote of idea what the concept of an overgod means? By naming something, (while it doesn't necessarily mean you know everything about that something) you have a more or less clear idea what that something is---its nature and its relevance to you and others. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 Jun 2011 : 04:51:01
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't see Ptah as an overdeity. He's got specific spheres of influence, and unlike most other deities, he's worshipped almost everywhere by spelljamming types. He might be something more than just a regular deity, but I don't think he's gotten to overdeity status.
I think Gray's drawing from Tom Costa's brilliant write-up of Ptah. But I look at it from a somewhat different way, which re-establishes the deity as an ancient power who "stepped down" from overgod/greater status long ago to concentrate on more terrestrial concerns.
Ptah, as Costa notes, was responsible for the creation of a/the Prime Material Plane and a/the multiverse from primordial Ethereal and Elemental building blocks.
I don't know that I'm familiar with that write-up... Where might I find it?
Your memory must be playing tricks on you:- http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4768
*wink*
Hey, I've stuffed a lot more useless knowledge -- and a few tidbits of useful stuff -- into me brain since then!  |
| The Sage |
Posted - 19 Jun 2011 : 03:45:28
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
The Lady of Pain is an overgod? What requirements does an overgod have to meet, anyway? Isn't s/he supposed to create gods and worlds?
I personally think this is where we start hitting a wall in terms of describing the nature and/or scope of creator/overgod types. And it's also, partly, at least as I see it, why Ao can be a nuisance-concept if overused in either home games or official material.
I see the creator/overgod-type as the "great unknown." Delving into requirements for overgod status, and defining what aspects of his/her/it's power... I think, works against the very notion of a creator god. When you define something within the bounds of a specific set of rules or paradigms -- in this case, the bounds of Prime Material reality -- you limit the scope of that particular definition. Creator gods/overgods should, or in my conception of the term, be undefined.
I mean, usually, most mortals have only the faintest conception of how a standard power operates. To bring the conception of a creator god into the same sphere of comprehension, devalues both the creator god, and his/her/it's remarkable creation.
Consider, also, that until the Time of Troubles, the majority of mortals [and I've speculated in the past, also, that some lesser powers themselves] had no knowledge of the existence of Ao or even Ao's superiors. That, in my mind, is the extent of what we should know about creator gods.
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 19 Jun 2011 : 03:35:25
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't see Ptah as an overdeity. He's got specific spheres of influence, and unlike most other deities, he's worshipped almost everywhere by spelljamming types. He might be something more than just a regular deity, but I don't think he's gotten to overdeity status.
I think Gray's drawing from Tom Costa's brilliant write-up of Ptah. But I look at it from a somewhat different way, which re-establishes the deity as an ancient power who "stepped down" from overgod/greater status long ago to concentrate on more terrestrial concerns.
Ptah, as Costa notes, was responsible for the creation of a/the Prime Material Plane and a/the multiverse from primordial Ethereal and Elemental building blocks.
I don't know that I'm familiar with that write-up... Where might I find it?
Your memory must be playing tricks on you:- http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4768
*wink* |
| Dennis |
Posted - 19 Jun 2011 : 03:28:41
The Lady of Pain is an overgod? What requirements does an overgod have to meet, anyway? Isn't s/he supposed to create gods and worlds? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 Jun 2011 : 02:58:55
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't see Ptah as an overdeity. He's got specific spheres of influence, and unlike most other deities, he's worshipped almost everywhere by spelljamming types. He might be something more than just a regular deity, but I don't think he's gotten to overdeity status.
I think Gray's drawing from Tom Costa's brilliant write-up of Ptah. But I look at it from a somewhat different way, which re-establishes the deity as an ancient power who "stepped down" from overgod/greater status long ago to concentrate on more terrestrial concerns.
Ptah, as Costa notes, was responsible for the creation of a/the Prime Material Plane and a/the multiverse from primordial Ethereal and Elemental building blocks.
I don't know that I'm familiar with that write-up... Where might I find it? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 19 Jun 2011 : 02:43:55
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't see Ptah as an overdeity. He's got specific spheres of influence, and unlike most other deities, he's worshipped almost everywhere by spelljamming types. He might be something more than just a regular deity, but I don't think he's gotten to overdeity status.
I think Gray's drawing from Tom Costa's brilliant write-up of Ptah. But I look at it from a somewhat different way, which re-establishes the deity as an ancient power who "stepped down" from overgod/greater status long ago to concentrate on more terrestrial concerns.
Ptah, as Costa notes, was responsible for the creation of a/the Prime Material Plane and a/the multiverse from primordial Ethereal and Elemental building blocks. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 19 Jun 2011 : 02:33:51
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I would argue that the Lady of Pain is an overgod. I know a lot of people would disagree, but she meets the definition. She does not require worship. She is more powerful than other gods. She is uniquely associated with Sigil, which could be a pocket universe on par with a crystal sphere.
I wouldn't disagree.
When I was speaking of Ao and the Highgod before, I'd actually considered placing the Lady of Pain [and, possibly, pre-fallen Aoskar] in the same category of creator "god-deity-power"-types -- simply because Sigil itself, represents a separate domain and supposedly created independently [and, perhaps, before] the creation of the entire D&D multiverse. Depending on how you perceive the origins of the City of Doors and Aoskar/the Lady of Pain, of course. 
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Jun 2011 : 23:12:16
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I would argue that the Lady of Pain is an overgod. I know a lot of people would disagree, but she meets the definition. She does not require worship. She is more powerful than other gods. She is uniquely associated with Sigil, which could be a pocket universe on par with a crystal sphere.
I think it likely also that Anubis is now an overgod as well. He does also does not require worship. He is guardian of the dead gods of the Astral. I would peg him as a DVR 21 overgod (first level overdivine status). However, I can't discount that he might be something different. He might just be an ordinary deity who has been bonded to the dead gods in such a way that he substitutes their residual divine life force in lieu of worship.
And I have my suspicions that Ptah is an overdeity as well. Although he would be pretty unusual as an overgod as he is more actively involved in the material world than most overdeities. I suspect his overdivine status is recent, and so he has not shed all his worshipers or his concerns and involvement with our level of reality. He has not yet grown so aloof as the other overgods.
I don't see Ptah as an overdeity. He's got specific spheres of influence, and unlike most other deities, he's worshipped almost everywhere by spelljamming types. He might be something more than just a regular deity, but I don't think he's gotten to overdeity status. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 18 Jun 2011 : 20:09:41
I would argue that the Lady of Pain is an overgod. I know a lot of people would disagree, but she meets the definition. She does not require worship. She is more powerful than other gods. She is uniquely associated with Sigil, which could be a pocket universe on par with a crystal sphere.
I think it likely also that Anubis is now an overgod as well. He does also does not require worship. He is guardian of the dead gods of the Astral. I would peg him as a DVR 21 overgod (first level overdivine status). However, I can't discount that he might be something different. He might just be an ordinary deity who has been bonded to the dead gods in such a way that he substitutes their residual divine life force in lieu of worship.
And I have my suspicions that Ptah is an overdeity as well. Although he would be pretty unusual as an overgod as he is more actively involved in the material world than most overdeities. I suspect his overdivine status is recent, and so he has not shed all his worshipers or his concerns and involvement with our level of reality. He has not yet grown so aloof as the other overgods. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Jun 2011 : 15:23:41
I think it was mostly to add flavor to Ao -- by making him answer to someone else, it sheds light on his own motivations and actions. |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 18 Jun 2011 : 14:19:35
I think it was more for show, from the fact that if you think you're powerful there is someone or something more powerful than you, after all Ao runs realmspace as if it were his "ant farm" but he really does not take much action unless it threatens the very fabric of realmspace or just to punish some deity who did not do as he said. The inclusion of the luminous being, i think was to simply highlight the fact that he's not alone, or he didn't create realmspace out of the goodness of his heart maybe he did it under orders. And lets not forget, where there is one being of light, there could be more, heck they could be an entire pantheon with their own ovegods.
After all no one ever asks Ao what he wants to do... |
| Dennis |
Posted - 18 Jun 2011 : 02:46:49
Why did they feel the need to create a being whom Ao must answer to? Isn't Ao more than enough? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 18 Jun 2011 : 02:19:13
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Such a stupid concept, the Luminous Being.
I don't make use of it, but I also don't mind it. So long as it isn't properly defined what the being is. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 18 Jun 2011 : 02:18:10
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And we know that Ao himself answers to a higher power... I would assume that also applies to other overgods.
I'm not sure that's the case with the Highgod. Though it's never been properly defined, like Ao's "Luminous Being," there are suggestions in DL-lore that possibly hint that the Highgod simply... is. And there is nothing more.
|
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 17 Jun 2011 : 16:59:32
-Such a stupid concept, the Luminous Being. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Jun 2011 : 16:53:29
And we know that Ao himself answers to a higher power... I would assume that also applies to other overgods.
Many people assume that the higher power Ao answers to is the Dungeon Master... But I watched the D&D cartoon a lot, back in the day, and that little guy never seemed all that godlike to me, much less such a top banana-type! |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 17 Jun 2011 : 16:46:05
-And, partially related, but I'll bring it up, since I've seen lots of people confuse the two: Pantheon heads, such as Corellon Larethian, or Moradin, and so on, aren't Overdeities. They're pantheon heads, and (in most cases) Greater Deities, but they're still in a tier below 'Overdeity'. |
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