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T O P I C    R E V I E W
Mariuss Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 18:21:07
Has a sun elf ever claimed this blade? I have been thinking of bringing one into my campaign for a Sun elf wizard/rogue and using it as a legendary item per the unerth arcana rules.It has been very hard to find much information about them. I have searched all of the books I have and done lots of checks on the net and not getting allot of info.


Thanks
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
TBeholder Posted - 08 Nov 2014 : 17:34:34
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

The moonblades were created, with the help of the Seldarine, for a purpose that literally spanned millennia. It's not unreasonable to assume that someone looking that far ahead would have other plans.

It's more reasonable to assume that a known modus operandi is used consistently, rather than turns on and off randomly. And we know that elves are consistently neither competent nor comfortable at thinking in terms of "after X" - to the point of acute phobia. They force themselves tochange anything very rarely, reluctantly, against the resistance of others. And the Seldarine aren't free Deus Ex Machina card, they may well be even worse.
quote:
As I said, though, it's not backed up by published canon. On the other hand, we have three basic factoids that can be used to support this idea:
Elaine, the creator of the moonblades, said there was another purpose.
Are you sure you are not reading between the lines instead of reading the lines?
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham

The moonblades were intended to be a test of rulership--a sword in the stone, as it were. They were to have a continuing purpose AFTER the selection of the royal family.

"continuing purpose" != "new purpose".

quote:
Moonblades did not stop functioning or becoming easier to wield, even though Evermeet had a ruler. This suggests -- but again, does not prove -- a continued function.
Their goal had been met, but the blades active at that time remained active.
Exactly: nothing changed. Occam's razor +2, +4 vs. needlessly contrived hypotheses whispers to me that this usually is best explained by black box consistently implementing the same function of parameters that didn't significantly change in the first place, rather than by introduction of dopplegangers inside black box while nobody looked.
And why not? If someone got selected, this doesn't really mean there can never be a need to do so again sometime later.
Also, shutting down would be a bad idea either way: it would immediately upset the balance of power.

quote:
A dormant moonblade could be reawakened. We see this with Elaith's moonblade. This is, again, hardly conclusive, but why was that functionality there if the family line had already been judged?

Not the family line, just the current heir. The next heirs may change the result.
Markustay Posted - 08 Nov 2014 : 14:38:42
Not really related t the thread, but inspired by it.

I have been running a (5e) game for my boys now, in a VERY loose version of The Realms, and I am having FUN. I think part of this has to do with me longer considering FR a 'serious setting'. I used to have fun running Greyhawk back in the day, with all the silliness I could throw in (and my players had fun as too!) I just don't seem to remember ever having that level of fun running The Realms before. Oh, I enjoyed it, and so did my players, but more in the way you sit back and watch an opera, with much 'solemnity and respect'. Greyhawk was never like that - it was like 'a night at a comedy club'. And thats the way I run my version of the Realms now - we have FUN. I think thats why young folks are more attracted to Golarion these days... but thats an argument for another thread.

So... Moonblades. Or rather, 'the Moon Blade'. I have an idea for an artifact - maybe a +2 sword (depends on when I introduce it) - that has a strange curse on it: it makes you bend over, drop your pants, and moon the enemy (only at the very start of combat - an 'encounter'). It will have no relation to the Elven Moonblades (and may have even been crafted just to mock them). Now, you see, my kids aren't above 'Googling' things - in this day-and-age you really can't have (official/canon) 'secrets' from your players. This is one reason why my Realms has its own history, related to, but not the same as, the canon one. So if they go look-up 'Moonblades', they will think they have found something very important, but instead it will just become a running joke.

I am not sure yet how I will handle it if they try to 'return it to the elves'. I guess it all depends on WHO they bring it to. That ought to be a hoot.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 08 Nov 2014 : 14:38:25
The moonblades were created, with the help of the Seldarine, for a purpose that literally spanned millennia. It's not unreasonable to assume that someone looking that far ahead would have other plans.

As I said, though, it's not backed up by published canon. On the other hand, we have three basic factoids that can be used to support this idea:

Elaine, the creator of the moonblades, said there was another purpose.

Moonblades did not stop functioning or becoming easier to wield, even though Evermeet had a ruler. This suggests -- but again, does not prove -- a continued function. Their goal had been met, but the blades active at that time remained active.

A dormant moonblade could be reawakened. We see this with Elaith's moonblade. This is, again, hardly conclusive, but why was that functionality there if the family line had already been judged?

It is my thinking, though, that this continued function wasn't something specific like picking a royal family. I think it would have been something broader in scope, because each blade developed differently, and because so many had gone dormant by them -- if it was a specific goal, I'd've expected more blades to remain active. It is this thinking that leads me to broader goals like defending or establishing new elven strongholds or becoming a sort of champion for elfkind, the way Arilyn is with the green elves of Tethyr. Of course, another idea could be sort of a drawing together of elven races -- again, looking at Arilyn (and Elaith), we have moon elves working with and defending green elves.
TBeholder Posted - 08 Nov 2014 : 14:04:56
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I do like that idea -- of some moonblades developing their own new purpose.

While we don't know what their continued purpose, past the royal selection, would have been, I am inclined to think that it would have remained something that benefitted elves. Perhaps their purpose would have become selecting elven champions, or creating/protecting new elven strongholds...

Why would they have any? For all the conceit of "elven foresight", there aren't much of it: elves consistently fail to think in terms of "after this point", rather than "more of the same indefinitely"... and those moonblades gradually turning into unusable deathtraps for the overconfident are a good example of this. As well as the Dracorage mythal.
Then again, the selected royal line actually is not somehow guaranteed to survive forever, so this part is not even that over the top.

Plot-wise, it can be no less interesting to have loads and loads of magic items made for very peculiar tasks someone once thought important, their purpose long forgotten or obsolete - whether fulfilled or failed - continuing no matter what, just like that golem told to "patch the wall" and dropping stones into a chasm... while mortals' wishful thinking slowly wraps them in mythology and mystique, ascribes them higher purpose, etc.
And aren't elves prone to wishful thinking even more than humans are, especially when there's perceived glorification of themselves or their ancestors?..
Wooly Rupert Posted - 07 Nov 2014 : 14:57:03
I do like that idea -- of some moonblades developing their own new purpose.

While we don't know what their continued purpose, past the royal selection, would have been, I am inclined to think that it would have remained something that benefitted elves. Perhaps their purpose would have become selecting elven champions, or creating/protecting new elven strongholds...

Canon doesn't (officially) reflect it, but I think it would be interesting if moonblades became somewhat less selective -- or at least, not as painful on rejection -- once the royal family was selected. That could, in fact, explain away some of the later discrepancies caused by writers/designers not paying attention to prior lore (one short story in particular comes to mind).
Markustay Posted - 07 Nov 2014 : 12:49:36
Yeah, my first bit of Realmslore (my one Candlekeep article) had some atrocious naming-conventions going on.

We were all 'newbs' at one time, Eric. Sometimes our enthusiasm clouds our common sense.

On the other hand, I know someone who comes up with the worst names ever... and is a best-selling author. Maybe ol' Nicknack needs his own trilogy.

As for the Moonblades - like so many other (long-running) things in FR, I find them a bit... confusing. However, I am a HUGE fan of ever-evolving, sentient magical items. 3e had Weapons of Legacy, and I really love that whole concept, and would apply it to more then just weaponry. 'Herirloom' items - such as Moonblades - would 'absorb' (for lack of a better word) certain characteristics from their users over time, and be altered by that. In fact, I would hazard to guess that is how 99% of all non-divine artifacts are created.

I also happen to think its fits perfectly with some of FRs 'deeper lore' - that magic = 'life'. So basically, when you attach magic to anything, you've attached the 'spark of life' to it, and circumstances permitting, that spark can grow. In that way, Elaine's original intent for the blades is still there, and many of them may still be conforming to only that intent (or whatever else she had in mind), but some of them, through their particular usage and handlers (and being around strong magic) may have evolved in new directions. Having magical items (or even people) becoming far more then their creators intended is actual a pretty good trope.
ericlboyd Posted - 07 Nov 2014 : 02:18:13
quote:
Originally posted by Cards77

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

I have to say, if there's one bit of Realmslore I've ever regretting writing, it would be a close match between the ettin who put on a helm of opposite alignment and became a druid (yes, that was my first published Realmslore) and the Starym Moonblade.

--Eric



The Ettin Druid sounds like an awesome thing.



Yeah now I'm dying to know what that was in. Though I'm also interested in moonblades.... /staysontopic



Nicknack Twoheads. Polyhedron #60.

Yes, the name is almost as bad as the concept.

--Eric
Cards77 Posted - 07 Nov 2014 : 02:09:56
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

I have to say, if there's one bit of Realmslore I've ever regretting writing, it would be a close match between the ettin who put on a helm of opposite alignment and became a druid (yes, that was my first published Realmslore) and the Starym Moonblade.

--Eric



The Ettin Druid sounds like an awesome thing.



Yeah now I'm dying to know what that was in. Though I'm also interested in moonblades.... /staysontopic
George Krashos Posted - 07 Nov 2014 : 01:25:00
Yeah, you suck Boyd!

-- George Krashos
Diffan Posted - 06 Nov 2014 : 22:36:44
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

I have to say, if there's one bit of Realmslore I've ever regretting writing, it would be a close match between the ettin who put on a helm of opposite alignment and became a druid (yes, that was my first published Realmslore) and the Starym Moonblade.

--Eric



The Ettin Druid sounds like an awesome thing.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 06 Nov 2014 : 22:09:13
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

I have to say, if there's one bit of Realmslore I've ever regretting writing, it would be a close match between the ettin who put on a helm of opposite alignment and became a druid (yes, that was my first published Realmslore) and the Starym Moonblade.

--Eric



I'm a huge fan of moonblades, and I've a strong preference for sticking with their original intent. That said, I always liked the Starym moonblade. I liked the lore behind its corruption, and I did not feel that it detracted from existing moonblade lore.
ericlboyd Posted - 06 Nov 2014 : 21:08:17
I have to say, if there's one bit of Realmslore I've ever regretting writing, it would be a close match between the ettin who put on a helm of opposite alignment and became a druid (yes, that was my first published Realmslore) and the Starym Moonblade.

--Eric
Barastir Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 20:57:57
Such blade would probably be one of those blades Mrs. Cunningham cited as too powerful to be wielded, as it would be hard for an heir to master all of its powers.
The Masked Mage Posted - 12 Oct 2013 : 07:00:46
The moonblade is obviously one of those creations of one author that has been changed again and again, by other authors and in game books as well. I imagine a super powerful moonblade from a militant family that rushes in and dies again and again :P... figure a new power added to the blade every 25 years or so - passed down to each new young foolhardy elf - makes a blade with a lot of magical powers :P. Just think of how powerful THAT weapon would be...
thebaron Posted - 07 Oct 2013 : 21:17:26
quote:


-- George Krashos


And Steven Schend's [i]Blackstaff revealed that some elves had their moonblades turned into "Hopeblades."

To which, he added [back in 2006]:-

"I'd love to answer Joe's question here, but there's such a thing as leaving a door open to walk through later...

I'll at least give you this:

All of the nine hopeblades are, like the moonblades before them, long hilted broadswords that can be wielded with one or two hands, depending on the size and strength of the wielder.

The hopeblades appear, feel, and sound like a diamond-hard crystal but ring like a crystal wine goblet when they hit things.

They may or may not have runes along the blade, and they may or may not have individual powers (NDA). They all do have the ability to pierce the veil that hides Rhymanthiin from normal eyes and allow someone into the hidden city of hope.

Beyond that, I'll not say due to NDAs and not wanting to get in the way of later development by myself or others.

Steven"

...

Oh, and he also told us that the hopeblades are not sentient.
[/quote]

Wow, I had a similar idea for the old moonblades to turn them into blades to help defend elves and their allies in my current 2e. Have not read much new FR books for later editions.
George Krashos Posted - 26 Oct 2012 : 16:40:13
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
I don't agree with this, but I will readily admit that it's a reasonable interpretation of some of the twists and turns the moonblade lore has taken.

The moonblades were intended to be a test of rulership--a sword in the stone, as it were. They were to have a continuing purpose AFTER the selection of the royal family. Since I can't speculate about unpublished lores, might-have-beens, or a personal wish list, I won't go into detail.



Nothing like being totally wrong!

-- George Krashos
Zireael Posted - 26 Oct 2012 : 15:08:07
Hmm, I wonder what the purpose is after the Moonflower coronation.

And since they are called Moonblades, maybe it has something to do with Sehanine?
ElaineCunningham Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 15:55:25
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

That's not quite right. As I understand it, what EC tried to convey is that the Moonblades, in their original incarnation, were created with the purpose of discovering the royal line of Evermeet. Once that purpose was fulfilled, and the Moonflowers got the gig, existing moonblades - dormant and active - effectively became something akin to free-willed. Without the 'find the royal line' imperative, moonblades (being mysterious, semi-sentient items) can now have many and varied 'purposes' and ergo many and varied wielders. Of course, that could be totally wrong, but I think it suits the moonblade lore as it currently stands, given that we've seen a few non-moon elf wielders now.

-- George Krashos




I don't agree with this, but I will readily admit that it's a reasonable interpretation of some of the twists and turns the moonblade lore has taken.

The moonblades were intended to be a test of rulership--a sword in the stone, as it were. They were to have a continuing purpose AFTER the selection of the royal family. Since I can't speculate about unpublished lores, might-have-beens, or a personal wish list, I won't go into detail.
ElaineCunningham Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 15:49:11
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
My pet theory, for one, is that Hanali Celanil was annoyed by the way elves treated Amnestria, so a few years later she took what clearly was the perfect opportunity to "give 'em a little lesson". Fits both the character and the place where it happened.



Makes perfect sense to me. :)
Alystra Illianniis Posted - 22 Aug 2012 : 23:27:13
*Ahem* And me.....
Rhewtani Posted - 21 Aug 2012 : 21:22:45
'Cept that Wooly guy
Kuje Posted - 13 Aug 2012 : 20:27:32
Just wanted to say to TBeholder that you'll probably not get replies to most of what you posted since most of what you replied to was something that was discussed way back in 2006 and those posters don't log on here any more.

Grins, talk about thread resurrection after six years. :)
TBeholder Posted - 13 Aug 2012 : 19:08:11
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco

Yep and the one and only Moonblade that was able to be wielded by a Sun Elf was corrupted by the power of Moander, the Starym Moonblade.
...damaging it specifically in the part controlling the wielder selection at that.
But we still don't know for sure that any Sun Elf ever touched it.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Cormanthyr says that Illitran Starym was a moon elf. Page 117. The clan was a mix of moon and sun elves.
...as well as Venali Starym. Which is where the "official" history ends and "legends pieced together"((c) Volo's Guide to All Things Magical) start, i.e. the lore on wielders becomes less than reliable.
Moreover, even if there was a report considered reliable in full-canon that "X got a Moonblade" and we knew X is a Sun elf, there still would be lingering doubt: identification in cases of less than clear-cut traits (which are expectable in descendants of a mixed House, btw) may in turn be unreliable. Remember how folk was confused as to the subrace of living, kicking and appearing in public Ashemmi?
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan

Do we really need to get Elaine in here again explaining that the events in Evermeet were only in part truth
...especially after this theme was beaten to death with a stick in a wider scope, up to articles named "Trusting in Lore"?
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan

Elaith, for one, was obviously a "not good" member of his family, yet the Moonblade chose his ancestors, and may choose his daughter.
I'm just pointing out, basically, that there's somewhat more of an enigma to the Moonblades than I think we've seen so far. It's fun to speculate on.
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth

3) "The times they are a changing" the moonblades where intended to choose a royal family for Evermeet which they have done. As they are no longer a tool for choosing the royal family its possable that the rules for claiming a Moonblade have been relaxed and that Elves of other races could claim a Moonblade. (This could explain how 2 Half elves have successfully claimed Moonblades)
To me, this looks more like an artifact that outlived its purpose: Moonblades continue to do the same thing just like a golem sticking to the last order "repair the castle" continues to do it. Even after half of the structure tumbled into a chasm and no one except birds lives there for a thousand years.
Didn't Elaine Cunningham say something to the effect "Moonflowers were selected, the end, it's just a bunch of overpowered artifacts treated as sacred heirloom now"?
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan

Arilyn was able to use one because hers was FUBARed and because she had a purely Elven soul, which other Half-Elves do not.
Which is also wide open to interpretations.
My pet theory, for one, is that Hanali Celanil was annoyed by the way elves treated Amnestria, so a few years later she took what clearly was the perfect opportunity to "give 'em a little lesson". Fits both the character and the place where it happened.
The Sage Posted - 13 Aug 2012 : 05:34:48
With regard to the possible future of other moonblaes, Elaine once said:-

"When Zaor was chosen as king, there were twenty-five living moonblades. That was quite some time ago, and I doubt there are more than eight or nine in active use. Its possible that a few others retain their magic, but have become so powerful that any attempt to claim them is virtually suidical. It seems likely that these too-powerful swords will go dormant in time. Each sword that retains its powers probably has a significant role to play in the history of the People.

It is impossible for an adventurer to find a living moonblade in a treasure trove and add it to his weapon collection. Anyone who is not of the direct family line will be slain when he attempts to draw the sword."

...

Also, back in September 2008, Elaine was asked about what the possible future of the moonblades would be in 4e FR. At the time, she had no idea. Elaine later added:- "If I were called upon to speculate--and what the heck, let's go for it--I'd say that all the moonblades, active and dormant, disappeared along with Evermeet."
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

That's not quite right. As I understand it, what EC tried to convey is that the Moonblades, in their original incarnation, were created with the purpose of discovering the royal line of Evermeet. Once that purpose was fulfilled, and the Moonflowers got the gig, existing moonblades - dormant and active - effectively became something akin to free-willed. Without the 'find the royal line' imperative, moonblades (being mysterious, semi-sentient items) can now have many and varied 'purposes' and ergo many and varied wielders. Of course, that could be totally wrong, but I think it suits the moonblade lore as it currently stands, given that we've seen a few non-moon elf wielders now.

-- George Krashos


And Steven Schend's Blackstaff revealed that some elves had their moonblades turned into "Hopeblades."

To which, he added [back in 2006]:-

"I'd love to answer Joe's question here, but there's such a thing as leaving a door open to walk through later...

I'll at least give you this:

All of the nine hopeblades are, like the moonblades before them, long hilted broadswords that can be wielded with one or two hands, depending on the size and strength of the wielder.

The hopeblades appear, feel, and sound like a diamond-hard crystal but ring like a crystal wine goblet when they hit things.

They may or may not have runes along the blade, and they may or may not have individual powers (NDA). They all do have the ability to pierce the veil that hides Rhymanthiin from normal eyes and allow someone into the hidden city of hope.

Beyond that, I'll not say due to NDAs and not wanting to get in the way of later development by myself or others.

Steven"

...

Oh, and he also told us that the hopeblades are not sentient.
George Krashos Posted - 13 Aug 2012 : 03:27:14
That's not quite right. As I understand it, what EC tried to convey is that the Moonblades, in their original incarnation, were created with the purpose of discovering the royal line of Evermeet. Once that purpose was fulfilled, and the Moonflowers got the gig, existing moonblades - dormant and active - effectively became something akin to free-willed. Without the 'find the royal line' imperative, moonblades (being mysterious, semi-sentient items) can now have many and varied 'purposes' and ergo many and varied wielders. Of course, that could be totally wrong, but I think it suits the moonblade lore as it currently stands, given that we've seen a few non-moon elf wielders now.

-- George Krashos
Alystra Illianniis Posted - 13 Aug 2012 : 01:27:34
As I recall, Eliath's daughter is a gold elf- from her mother's side- so she can't claim it without some sort of intervening circumstance, which I believe Eliath tried to accomplish in the Dragon short story. The exact title escapes me ATM, but it had something about a game in it. "Game of Chance"? Something like that. Anywho, IIRC, no gold elf has ever YET claimed one (and LIVED), so I doubt it is possible. Several families even nearly went extinct trying, in "Evermeet". I'm going to guess that that means that those families mothballed their swords pretty much indefinitely, and there were some that went dormant at the ceremony itself, meaning that NONE of the members of those families were suitable. Since there were only twenty-five active blades left when the Moonflower clan took the throne, it stands to reason that no gold elf ever will claim it. Not unless (unlikely) a gold elf is born to the Moonflower family, AND is suitable to rule, AND is able to successfully claim Zaor's blade. I just don't see it ever happening.
Kentinal Posted - 11 Aug 2012 : 00:41:22
*sighs* Is all I can say.
Nemesis Necrosis Posted - 11 Aug 2012 : 00:20:09
The making of the Moonblades:

http://www.e-reading.org.ua/chapter.php/149340/17/Cunningham_-_Evermeet__Island_of_Elves.html

At the beginning, every noble family, and some richer families, was given the chance to claim the Moonblades. That includes GOLD ELVES and MOON ELVES. The reason: to find the royal family. The point is, by the end of it, the family with the most Moonblades would become royal, and in the end, that was the Moonflower family.

Charles Phipps Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 03:32:49
Man, is it just me or did Elaine Cunningham get stalked about Moonblades?

Of course, she never intended them to become every PC half-elves dream weapon (or elf)
GothicDan Posted - 12 Jul 2006 : 04:47:47
I look forward to seeing how Elaine handles it. I have to make sure I read up through the entire story, fast. :)

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