Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 General Forgotten Realms Chat
 Team 'tank' options

Note: You must be registered in order to post a reply.
To register, click here. Registration is FREE!

Screensize:
UserName:
Password:
Format Mode:
Format: BoldItalicizedUnderlineStrikethrough Align LeftCenteredAlign Right Horizontal Rule Insert HyperlinkInsert Email Insert CodeInsert QuoteInsert List
   
Message:

* HTML is OFF
* Forum Code is ON
Smilies
Smile [:)] Big Smile [:D] Cool [8D] Blush [:I]
Tongue [:P] Evil [):] Wink [;)] Clown [:o)]
Black Eye [B)] Eight Ball [8] Frown [:(] Shy [8)]
Shocked [:0] Angry [:(!] Dead [xx(] Sleepy [|)]
Kisses [:X] Approve [^] Disapprove [V] Question [?]
Rolling Eyes [8|] Confused [?!:] Help [?:] King [3|:]
Laughing [:OD] What [W] Oooohh [:H] Down [:E]

  Check here to include your profile signature.
Check here to subscribe to this topic.
    

T O P I C    R E V I E W
Trace_Coburn Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 03:08:31
Okay, I've got an FR-centric fic in the works which promises to be fairly sizeable when all's said and done, but one of the slots on the team is still open: the tank, the resident front-line brawler who dives into a fight and just starts wrecking $#!+. The thing is, I want the character to be a little... atypical for that role in the team, someone who breaks the usual stereotypes for tank and/or their race.

My current character ideas are a surly(!) (rock) gnome fighter who favours the halberd, or a personable (mountain) wemic barbarian/fighter (with a similar weapon). Which would you favour, and why? Have you any other suggestions that might fit the bill (please detail)?

(Please: no dwarves - the rest of the team is evenly split between humans and elves and I'd rather not trot out the tired old LotR-style Gimli-and-Legolas clichés. )
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Ergdusch Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 22:53:33
Being not sure if this poll is still active or not - and still of interest for the decision might have been made already - I still through in my own idea.

I voted for the wemic, but using the so often forgotten weapon: spear. First of all is is a traditional weapon for a wemic. However the combination of feats makes it unique. Taking feats focusing on critical attacks with his natural claw attacks, he would charge in every fight, throughing the spear at his first opponent and than diving after it to rip his foes apart with his claws. Bloodshed all over - gore flying - foes screaming & dying (or running)....
ShadowJack Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 13:04:29
I will say go with the wemic! I have always wanted to play a wemic character... Elaine Cunningham had a neat wemic bodyguard in one of her books... I think it was Elaine.?.? Of course I really like gnome characters, and a gnome with a bad-@## attitude would be an interesting variation. I played a gnome cleric for a while that was a follower of Gaerdal Ironhand, the only gnome deity that grants war in his portfolio, if I remember right. They get some decent bonusses with a hooked hamer... Of course I love minotaurs also, that is a great idea, oh, never mind, I can't decide which to choose...
bitter thorn Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 01:04:47
A barricade buckler, the feat that lets you use your buckler for defense while using your off hand, a short sword and maybe that turtle fighter tactical feat gives you a mess of options in addition to the polearm combat reflexes build.
Zimme Posted - 21 Oct 2006 : 17:33:38
A minotaur. for the race's high constitution and high strength a minotaur can take massive dammage and dish it out. humanoid handbook for pointers, there are other books for stats on a mino char but humanoid is the most common. or 3rd edition =)
Fletcher Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 19:07:39
Why not go for the elan psychic warrior. immediat ability to add +4 resistance to a save.
Or half giant, has some really cool abilities, particularly if you go for the trip/knockdown and hit-em while they are down style of fighting.

There is little that is harder to knock down than a psychic warrior who keeps putting up Vigor(way too many hit points), Biofeedback (it hurts less), and Empathic Feedback (pain for pain).
Armor and weapons of a fighter, cleric HP and BAB.
Bladedancer Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 18:00:04
I voted for the wemic. Although how about this for an idea a bugbear fighter. They are both strong and quick. Plus cute and cuddly to boot. Well ok not so cute. Err... and come to think of it not so cuddly either. But nothing says intimidation like a hairy seven-foot gobliniod with bad teeth and halatosis.
khorne Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 13:35:21
Other. I find the Armand really appealing.
Kentinal Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 04:56:02
quote:
Originally posted by Trace_Coburn

You mean... you mean there might be a dwarf out there who doesn't subscribe to the "scream and leap" school of tactics!? How could his brother dwarves tolerate the shame of such a heretical beast's existence!?





Well I suspect Drawven Clerics do not do this and not picked on much because of two factors.

Combat spells before and during the scream and leap phase and the healing for those that survive said tactic *wink* They bring Wisdom to the battle.

Of course even these saner Drawves would attack on sight my Goblin Paladin.
hammer of Moradin Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 04:07:52
quote:
Originally posted by Trace_Coburn
quote:
Smart dwarf - Goes against what you're looking for, kinda. Make him smart so he doesn't run headlong into trouble, but instead waits, watches, and listens. Sizes up the situation before taking it on. When the action starts, he's fully loaded, but usually already has the drop on his opponents as to make the armor and weapons redundant.
You mean... you mean there might be a dwarf out there who doesn't subscribe to the "scream and leap" school of tactics!? How could his brother dwarves tolerate the shame of such a heretical beast's existence!?



Actually pause, think, scream, then leap.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 17:07:18
quote:
Originally posted by Trace_Coburn

quote:
Originally posted by hammer of Moradin

(Please: no dwarves - the rest of the team is evenly split between humans and elves and I'd rather not trot out the tired old LotR-style Gimli-and-Legolas clichés. )



That's it. Equal rights for dwarves time!
What are you - the Dwarven Anti-Defamation League?




Close. He's the founder of the Dwarven Anti-Defamation Alliance, also known as DA-DA.
The Cardinal Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 16:04:08
Whatever the case (Edit note: whereever you shall post it) I shall be looking forward to reading it over when you are finally finished. Good Luck on it
Trace_Coburn Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 14:16:30
quote:
Originally posted by hammer of Moradin

(Please: no dwarves - the rest of the team is evenly split between humans and elves and I'd rather not trot out the tired old LotR-style Gimli-and-Legolas clichés. )



That's it. Equal rights for dwarves time!
What are you - the Dwarven Anti-Defamation League?

quote:
You answered your own question here. Do NOT trot out the cliches, but, at the same time, play into the cliches. HAVE a dwarf tank in the party. Do something different with it. Tolkien did. Jackson didn't.
Have a dwarf, armor him up, and make him your own. Ideas for this, which, of course, you don't want to use 'cuz they're mine.

Gold dwarf Paladin - This may be a cliche of its own, but have him really unlikable toward other races. A real bigot. Have him come from one of the powerful families of the rift, with holier-than-thou attitudes toward other races. You want healing, ya gotta earn it by proving yourself. Do something unlawful, and of questionable behavior, well be prepared to face some consequences.
Sounds interesting... but given that one of the other characters will be a drow priestess (who is very much NOT Drizzt or Liriel), I don't think such a character would last too long in the team. In most adventurer bands, characters who disrupt the team's unity in such a fashion tend to find themselves sent packing in short order (if you'll pardon the expression). (Besides, we've ample holy warriors on the team already.)
However, running into such a fellow in their travels might make for some interesting times, and I'll bear it in mind (with your permission, of course).
quote:
Shield dwarf Fighter - Common enough, right? Give him a cool weapon and he stands out in a crowd. Hey, why's that dwarf wielding a katana? Dunno, must be a samurai (PrC, not Class rules). Lookit that dwarf with the twin scimitars, that's mighty strange. Dwarven urgrosh, I didn't think that dwarves actually used those because of all the complicated rules.
Y'know, after looking at the urgrosh in response to this post, I'm struck by how much it resembles the halberd in some respects, and in how flexible and potentially devastating a weapon it appears to be (for all that its description's length makes it a little intimidating). Nonetheless, you've nixed my stealing this particular idea, and I'll respect that.

Here's something odd, though, and others might want to consider this in creating their own characters for whatever reasons: given how popular a weapon it was in real life, it's truly remarkable how few fantasy characters I see (be they in D&D or otherwise, fiction or PC's) who actually use spears (of any grade). Swords and axes have the 'Conan'/'LotR' factor going for them, but spears are still pretty nasty in the right hands - and as simple weapons with a low, low price-tag and some decent inherent options, I wouldn't be opposed to seeing them regaining a bit of prominence.
But then again, that's just my two c.p. for the day.
quote:
Smart dwarf - Goes against what you're looking for, kinda. Make him smart so he doesn't run headlong into trouble, but instead waits, watches, and listens. Sizes up the situation before taking it on. When the action starts, he's fully loaded, but usually already has the drop on his opponents as to make the armor and weapons redundant.
You mean... you mean there might be a dwarf out there who doesn't subscribe to the "scream and leap" school of tactics!? How could his brother dwarves tolerate the shame of such a heretical beast's existence!?

quote:
If you notice, the rules of D&D are geared towards lightly armored, or unarmored characters. Magic supplements the character to make survivability believable, somewhat. In truth, the better armored, the more likely one is to survive. Only two, sometimes three, of the core classes work with this (Fighter, Paladin, and sometimes Cleric), while the others (Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Monk, Ranger, Rogue, Sorcerer, and Wizard) do not. It's a wonder that anyone survives long enough to make it to higher, more powerful, levels in the game. I guess they all had armor on until they could survive without it.

Indeed, I've been paging through my PH a fair bit the last couple of days, and much the same thing occurred to me. Admittedly, the barbarian's abilities let him get away with it to a certain extent, but you're right on about the others.
(Hell, as much as this team is going to emphasis stealth and freedom of movement in their capers, even the resident sorcerer had invested in a couple of Rogue levels and a scimitar before he left Calimshan to seek his fortune - partly because he had a thing for shortbow-hunting, but mainly because he figured that wearing a set of battle-leathers a) made him less of a target, dismissed as "just another thug on a budget", so his magic was usually a very nasty shock to the other side, and b) helped him keep his insides where they belonged if-and-when bad guys got past his 'guards'. The skill-points and talent for being a sneaky SOB were simply a bonus. )

@ The Cardinal:
I'll be posting it at Fanfiction.net; as irksome and infuriating as that site is to me on several levels, it's still the single largest fanfic repository I know of. I'm not quite sure if outright fan-fic is permitted here, but if I get the nod from the resident PTBs I'll be putting it up as a scroll in the Adventuring shelves as well, for eventual archival in the main site's Campaign Journals section.
hammer of Moradin Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 04:50:09
(Please: no dwarves - the rest of the team is evenly split between humans and elves and I'd rather not trot out the tired old LotR-style Gimli-and-Legolas clichés. )



That's it. Equal rights for dwarves time!

You answered your own question here. Do NOT trot out the cliches, but, at the same time, play into the cliches. HAVE a dwarf tank in the party. Do something different with it. Tolkien did. Jackson didn't.
Have a dwarf, armor him up, and make him your own. Ideas for this, which, of course, you don't want to use cuz they're mine.

Gold dwarf Paladin - This may be a cliche of its own, but have him really unlikable toward other races. A real bigot. Have him come from one of the powerful families of the rift, with holier-than-thou attitudes toward other races. You want healing, ya gotta earn it by proving yourself. Do something unlawful, and of questionable behavior, well be prepared to face some consequences.

Shield dwarf Fighter - Common enough, right? Give him a cool weapon and he stands out in a crowd. Hey, why's that dwarf wielding a katana? Dunno, must be a samurai (PrC, not Class rules). Lookit that dwarf with the twin scimitars, that's mighty strange. Dwarven urgrosh, I didn't think that dwarves actually used those because of all the complicated rules.

Smart dwarf - Goes against what you're looking for, kinda. Make him smart so he doesn't run headlong into trouble, but instead waits, watches, and listens. Sizes up the situation before taking it on. When the action starts, he's fully loaded, but usually already has the drop on his opponents as to make the armor and weapons redundant.


If you notice, the rules of D&D are geared towards lightly armored, or unarmored characters. Magic supplements the character to make survivability believable, somewhat. In truth, the better armored, the more likely one is to survive. Only two, sometimes three, of the core classes work with this (Fighter, Paladin, and sometimes Cleric), while the others (Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Monk, Ranger, Rogue, Sorcerer, and Wizard) do not. It's a wonder that anyone survives long enough to make it to higher, more powerful, levels in the game. I guess they all had armor on until they could survive without it.
Reefy Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 01:57:05
I like the gnome, it goes against the norm but isn't too far out.
Purple Dragon Knight Posted - 13 Jun 2006 : 19:08:28
If I have to choose here:

Gnome Rogue 3 / Fighter X (and perhaps some PrC... that giant fighter sounds cool, so does Breach Gnome from Races of Faerun)

I am of the opinion that the small races should ALWAYS pick up three levels of rogue: it slows down your BAB by only one and adds +2d6 of sneak damage, which will compensate for your smaller weapon and strength (somewhat).

Gnomes are hard to make into good melee types due to the STR penalty, so halflings have an advantage here.

I always use gnomes as rogue/illusionists or bards. Adding one level of cleric and selecting the gnome and illusion domains reduces your arcane spellcasting by one level but increases your caster level by two (for a total of +1 caster level with illusions: -1 from taking cleric instead of the arcane spellcasting class, and +2 from the domains)
The Cardinal Posted - 13 Jun 2006 : 16:01:11
This prompts a single question, will there be a place where We scribes may be able to peruse this fic at a later date?
Trace_Coburn Posted - 13 Jun 2006 : 15:18:44
quote:
Originally posted by scererar

go with the Gnome. I believe it is the most (core)underused character race available. an unusual gnome character, could add lots of flavor to the campaign. A wemic could be cool, however, how many places could he/she go, with out being harrassed, simply because of being a wemic. In the Shaar, this would not pose much of a problem, but in the north and other places, even going to the local inn could pose issues. Power to the little gnome

Aren't the 'fish out of water' scenarios the entire point of using barbarian characters?

Y'know, after seeing the wemic's formerly unshakeable lead erode somewhat, and reading some pretty passionate arguments, I'm almost tempted to use them *both* - the wemic for shock-action, the breachgnome as their bulwark/rear-guard. Of course, that'd bulk the party up to eight in all, and I'm not sure I can do justice to the cast I've already chosen....
(I mean, the 'base' band already includes a paladin with a shady past and a Calishite merchant/sorcerer as just two examples, not to mention a couple of guides who have their own 'eccentricities' - and all of this stemming from a desire/attempt to confound the normal stereotypes.... )
I *do* have a decent way of using both of these tanks built into the story structure, though, albeit almost by accident... though I find I'm having to go even further into their back-story to avoid Joss Whedon's famous "cut to a year later, she's living with dwarves" problem.
Nonetheless, anyone who has strong feelings one way or the other is still more than welcome to make themselves heard!

@ sleyvas: believe it or not, it was buying and reading that precise issue of Dragon which prompted all the halberd-love in the first place. However, I think you may have missed something: the halberd doesn't *have* reach unless you use the Long Strike feat, so it's perfectly okay for close action (especially if you use Haft Strike as well, to cover all three forms of damage ).
Heh: throw in Power Attack and Cleave/Great Cleave as well, and it'll be "Goblins? [splat!] *What* goblins?"
Kentinal Posted - 12 Jun 2006 : 00:02:26
Prehaps a Paladin goblin?
Advantages a small tank, elves do not hate goblins like drawves do so might be acepting enough, still can use reach weapon, has darkvision.

Draw backs, smal size, not normally a PC race. I am sure there are others as well.
scererar Posted - 11 Jun 2006 : 23:36:48
go with the Gnome. I believe it is the most (core)underused character race available. an unusual gnome character, could add lots of flavor to the campaign. A wemic could be cool, however, how many places could he/she go, with out being harrassed, simply because of being a wemic. In the Shaar, this would not pose much of a problem, but in the north and other places, even going to the local inn could pose issues. Power to the little gnome
The Cardinal Posted - 11 Jun 2006 : 16:55:02
Well I voted Wemic Since you hear so little of them, and you've seem to have one in mind so it's easier than fleshing out something brand new. Personally If It were Me, I'd choose either the Goatmen (Monster Manual II or III, I don't have My books with Me so I can;t recall the proper name of them).
sleyvas Posted - 11 Jun 2006 : 12:38:53
My first thought was the wemic. Have him use the halberd even at close range via the feats in dragon from like a year or so back for use with reach weapons (basically, choke up on the stock and take a penalty to hit, but if he has specialization, etc... might be worth it).

Then someone mentioned MM3, and I just have to mention the goat men in that. Especially if one of the goat men comes from a tribe which was all killed off. They normally have this bond with each other that they fight in pairs better than they fight as a single unit. Or perhaps the goat man and his brother left to go adventuring, but his brother was recently killed and he just has something missing (or so he feels).
Jorkens Posted - 10 Jun 2006 : 15:48:24
The Armand is, well don't laugh, its an armadillo-humanoid. I think their in Monster compendium III. I remember them because Ed gave a brief overview over their habits. There are a few bands in Anauroch and if you look up Ed's post (04 feb. 06) you should get a picture of them.

Of all the new creatures I have seen in this edition the Armand is the only one I really, really like. Now, try to see it before you, a four feet tall bastion of defence (they get bonuses in defencive stance) holding back the enemies before the party. The armadillo is more of a wall than a battering ram, but you wanted something exotic and an Armand explorer traveling with your party would definitely fit the bill.

Now, I see your point when it comes to the weapons, but I still say that a halberd would be a bit cumbersome for a gnome because of its length, and remember that it needs a great deal of room. The Wemic with a halberd is a good idea, but how is it with charge bonuses in 3ed.? A wemic is a cavaleryman in it self and the halberd is a very stationary weapon. I play 2ed. so I am not to sure about the rules when it comes to size and weapons any longer, I'm just trying to see the fighter before me.

Good luck with your story, whichever choice you make.
Trace_Coburn Posted - 10 Jun 2006 : 15:17:42
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Well, I like both alternatives. The Wemics are underused in the realms and the size of the creature would make the halberd almost like a form of great-axe in the creatures hands making for an interesting combat style. Bad memories of an early campaign involving a wemic fighter keeps me from picking this as a favorite
Actually, I was thinking of a wemic-sized halberd (2d8 damage + super-high Str + barbarian rage = OWCH!), but with a 'back-up weapon' of a Medium-sized greataxe (meaning it's a one-handed battleaxe to the wemic) and a shield. Double-bitted broadaxe plus a shield bonus to AC? There is no bad here.

quote:
The Rock gnome fighting machine idea also has potential, but I think the halberd may be the wrong weapon; it is long unwieldy and more useful for keeping foes at a distance. How about a maul or sledgehammer?
The reason I'm so locked in on the halberd is because it's so versatile: you can thrust with the point in narrow tunnels, set it against charges (and let's face it, *lots* of things are going to try to rush-and-manhandle a gnome!), trip opponents, and it's one of the few martial weapons which offers a Small user 1d8 base damage. Not to mention the sheer eccentricity/intimidation factor inherent in a three-foot-three gnome wielding a five-foot polearm.
Hostile: "Ye gods! A gnome wielding a halberd? How bad-ass must *he* be?"

(Though he *does* carry a shield and warhammer for backup and/or use in really tight quarters - and I'm waiting for my back-ordered DMG to come through before I decide how many smokepowder pistols he carries to 'quick, Burgrinn, thin out their numbers!'. )

quote:
Other exotic ideas of the top of my head:

- A Firbolg ranger or priest for the ultimate coverage for the rest of the party. maybe with a personality-quirk for balance. Maybe on a quest of his own and slightly at odds with the rest of the party?
Interesting.... [ponders]
quote:
- An Armand explorer; fundamentally against violence, but with a strong wish to protect his new companions. fights desperately, but without joy. Maybe to much of an "alien" in the group, but then again it could have a value story-wise.
'Armand'? I'm drawing a blank on that one, sorry.
quote:
-The party takes another humanoid prisoner,I see a bugbear, but ogre, flind or gnoll might also work; a lone hunter that they don't dare to let go or that they think they have a use for. Taken out of his territory by the party he has greater chance of surviving by playing along than he has on his one. Dragged along he has little love for the party, but wants to survive and charges in to combat with reckless ferocity.
Okay, this is where I tell you to quit reading my notes.

All responses welcomed and considered, folks, so feel free to keep talking! So far the wemic holds the lead, but every vote counts!
AlacLuin Posted - 10 Jun 2006 : 04:05:06
Just becouse I've always wanted to play one as a tank....
A Dekanter Goblin.

Ok, the Gnome would most likely be the "easiest" RP wise.
Beezy Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 19:08:05
I voted for the gnome as well. Where as the Wemic is an interesting choice I love a love for gnomes and think it would be great to see a melee gnome as opposed to a spellcaster gnome
Faramicos Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 12:14:34
I like the idea of taking the gnome concept to the next level and showing that there are other ways to play a gnome than a spell-hurling brain. Let me know what your final decision will be.
Jorkens Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 07:39:37

Well, I like both alternatives. The Wemics are underused in the realms and the size of the creature would make the halberd almost like a form of great-axe in the creatures hands making for an interesting combat style. Bad memories of an early campaign involving a wemic fighter keeps me from picking this as a favorite

The Rock gnome fighting machine idea also has potential, but I think the halberd may be the wrong weapon; it is long unwieldy and more useful for keeping foes at a distance. How about a maul or sledgehammer?

Other exotic ideas of the top of my head:

- A Firbolg ranger or priest for the ultimate coverage for the rest of the party. maybe with a personality-quirk for balance. Maybe on a quest of his own and slightly at odds with the rest of the party?

- An Armand explorer; fundamentally against violence, but with a strong wish to protect his new companions. fights desperately, but without joy. Maybe to much of an "alien" in the group, but then again it could have a value story-wise.

-The party takes another humanoid prisoner,I see a bugbear, but ogre, flind or gnoll might also work; a lone hunter that they don't dare to let go or that they think they have a use for. Taken out of his territory by the party he has greater chance of surviving by playing along than he has on his one. Dragged along he has little love for the party, but wants to survive and charges in to combat with reckless ferocity.

I will stop my ramblings now while I still can. As I said both the original alternatives are good, but I pick the gnome.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 06:14:00
I've always thought wemics were a cool race, so I voted for a wemic.
Sian Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 05:46:52
Permenently reduced Rockgnome Fighter/Gnome Giant Slayer (permenently reduced while fighting a wizard and afterwards took training in the Gnome Giant Slayer prestige class)

Ghostwise Halfling Barbarian
warlockco Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 03:25:13
I chose a Wemic, because it is so far off-base from the norm. And Wemic's barely get any mention anywhere at all.

Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2024 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000