| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Brenigin |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 10:47:12
I'm helping a player work out the background for a new character. He wants to play an Elf Paladin, and we've decided that this would work if his lawful side came about as a rejection of the Retreat, seeing it as abandonment of the elves dwarf and human friends.
He would still worship Correllon Larethian, but I thought it would be interesting to have him also pay homage to Lathander, seeing his Renewal aspect as a way to bring about a new, stronger alliance between elves and humans that harked back to the days of Myth Drannor.
I could see the character serving the Order of the Aster, attempting to prove through his deeds that the elves DO care about humankind, while staying firm in his belief that he is doing Correllon's work and furthering the destiny of elfkind.
So - would you allow this in your campaign, if the player roleplayed it appropriately? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| scererar |
Posted - 03 Jun 2006 : 17:52:19
I still am in favor of a PRC similar to the triadic knight in PoF. I think it would be more difficult to bridge pantheons, but it is a great way to have a character be able to be devoted to more than one god/ godess at the same time and receive some benefits from it as well. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 03 Jun 2006 : 16:04:44
As loath as I am to say "lets make a new feat for that".... this could be handled in the form of a feat. I would almost say use the Heretic of the Faith feat, but it doesn't really allow for the mechanics we're discussing. However, if someone wanted to be able to have two deities as their patrons and be able to choose amongst either for things such as weapon of the deity, domains, initiate feats, religious artifacts that they could use, prestige classes they could enter, etc....
There are a couple examples. Larajin has already been mentioned, but also there was a drow worshipper of Lolth & Vhaeraun in the Daughter of the drow series. This drow one even brings into the picture that the two deities don't even have to like one another and can even be enemies. In fact, they may not even be aware of their follower's "betrayal", though this would be hard to hide and thus DM's would be fully in their right to have the two deities squabbling and pulling their favor (and abilities) away from the cleric if they didn't keep both pleased. Using this ruling would make players more likely to choose a deity with similar goals. A follower of Kelemvor and Lathander who focuses on stamping out undeath for instance. A follower of Lathander and Chauntea who works to bring life to the world for instance. A follower of Mystra and Deneir who seeks to uncover lost mystical knowledge.
Note also, this feat might even be useful for players who are not clerics. For instance, the arcane disciple feat allows arcane casters to cast spells from domains. So, if you were a warmage who wanted to expand your spell line, you could take this "as yet uncreated feat" to have both Mystra and Lurue as your deities. You could then say that your character wants to protect magic and the magical beasts of this world. Said warmage could then choose both the spell domain and the healing domain to add to his spell lists. Granted, this would use 3 feats, but it sounds like a very interesting character to me who probably isn't unbalanced. Similarly, a war mage who chooses Tempus (god of war) and Talos (god of wild and destructive magic), or Tempus (god of war) and Red Knight (goddess of Tactics) might find 2 domains useful, or might want to go into some prestige classes for both, etc.... |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 30 May 2006 : 23:42:44
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I still disagree.
I'd allow it if it made sense to do so since FR deities are not that petty except for a few that are, and the deities allow divine casters to worship outside of thier pantheons and have more then one deity. Also some of those deities even jointly grant spells to thier divine casters, as we said earlier. Also remember that FR isn't monothestic, it's polythestic and on any given day a divine caster can send prayers to up to ten or more deities, depending on the situation. (And yes, I probably butchered those spellings. :))
And so it's not out of the oridinary to find a divine caster of Corellon also praying to Tymora and Erevan for luck, Sehanine and Selune for moon influence, Mystra just because she's also a goddess of magic, Umberlee if you are about to sail or Valkur for the same reason, Lathander for dawn, etc.
Now mechanically, I suppose it would be different but I always run my games as the rules are guidelines and they rules don't rule me, I rule the rules. :)
Aye, I agree completely with your points here. I referred to those cases when a player wants to have more than one patron deity only for the sake of maximizing his character (i.e. by taking prestige classes of two deities). |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 30 May 2006 : 23:39:23
quote:
Originally posted by Brenigin
Just to clarify one point, he will pay homage to Latahnder, but not worship him on the level of a patron deity. He will recieve no spells from him, not take a lebel of Morninglord etc. He is a Paladin of Corellon (some would argue this is not allowed but that's another argument :))
Hey, maybe he could be a Heretic worshipping a LG aspect of Corellon? |
| Brenigin |
Posted - 30 May 2006 : 11:43:13
Sun Elf. Sun elves are arguably more likely to veer towards Law over Chaos. Also an Elf Paladin is something of a rebel (rejecting chaos), and Sun Elves seem more likely to get frustrated with the ways of their kind (the xenophobic tendencies, the arrogance etc).
To me, a major theme of The Last Mythal series seems to be Sun Elves rejecting their traditional attitudes, especially towards humans and Faerun. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 May 2006 : 21:45:59
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
btw What type of Elf is this Paladin going to be? Sun Elf, Moon Elf, something else?
Sun elf would be appropriate -- as I recall, they already have a tendency to like Lathander.  |
| warlockco |
Posted - 29 May 2006 : 20:36:03
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Brenigin
Just to clarify one point, he will pay homage to Latahnder, but not worship him on the level of a patron deity. He will recieve no spells from him, not take a lebel of Morninglord etc. He is a Paladin of Corellon (some would argue this is not allowed but that's another argument :))
Well then, there really isn't that much of a problem since -- as several of us have already said -- most races in the Realms pay homage to more than one deity regularly. And it's backed up by Ed as well... so really, there's no potential issue with canon facts or Realmslore with this  .
Agreed, it would have been an entirely different issue if he actually worshipped Lathander as opposed to just lip-service.
btw What type of Elf is this Paladin going to be? Sun Elf, Moon Elf, something else? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 29 May 2006 : 09:34:09
quote:
Originally posted by Brenigin
Just to clarify one point, he will pay homage to Latahnder, but not worship him on the level of a patron deity. He will recieve no spells from him, not take a lebel of Morninglord etc. He is a Paladin of Corellon (some would argue this is not allowed but that's another argument :))
Well then, there really isn't that much of a problem since -- as several of us have already said -- most races in the Realms pay homage to more than one deity regularly. And it's backed up by Ed as well... so really, there's no potential issue with canon facts or Realmslore with this .
|
| Kuje |
Posted - 29 May 2006 : 09:29:50
quote:
Originally posted by Brenigin
Just to clarify one point, he will pay homage to Latahnder, but not worship him on the level of a patron deity. He will recieve no spells from him, not take a lebel of Morninglord etc. He is a Paladin of Corellon (some would argue this is not allowed but that's another argument :))
Then even moreso, there is no reason to disallow this because this happens in FR on a daily basis. :) |
| Brenigin |
Posted - 29 May 2006 : 09:26:14
Just to clarify one point, he will pay homage to Latahnder, but not worship him on the level of a patron deity. He will recieve no spells from him, not take a lebel of Morninglord etc. He is a Paladin of Corellon (some would argue this is not allowed but that's another argument :)) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 29 May 2006 : 07:44:29
Agreed.
I'd allow it since what Ed has previously told us about mortals being able to worship deities outside their traditional racial pantheons is pretty much what I would've done for my games if a player came to me with such an idea before I'd read what Ed said.
Larajin, as I mentioned earlier, is a perfect example of what Kuje is talking about just above -- with a divine caster being able to worship two deities... neither connected by pantheon... and receiving divine magic for her spells from either deity.
As for the rules issue... well, like I said above, I'm not sure how I'd do it myself, but I've always tended toward the same "rules as guidelines" approach as just mentioned. So, I guess I'd take it from there and go with what works for *my* FR.
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| Kuje |
Posted - 29 May 2006 : 07:25:01
I still disagree.
I'd allow it if it made sense to do so since FR deities are not that petty except for a few that are, and the deities allow divine casters to worship outside of thier pantheons and have more then one deity. Also some of those deities even jointly grant spells to thier divine casters, as we said earlier. Also remember that FR isn't monothestic, it's polythestic and on any given day a divine caster can send prayers to up to ten or more deities, depending on the situation. (And yes, I probably butchered those spellings. :))
And so it's not out of the oridinary to find a divine caster of Corellon also praying to Tymora and Erevan for luck, Sehanine and Selune for moon influence, Mystra just because she's also a goddess of magic, Umberlee if you are about to sail or Valkur for the same reason, Lathander for dawn, etc.
Now mechanically, I suppose it would be different but I always run my games as the rules are guidelines and they rules don't rule me, I rule the rules. :) |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 29 May 2006 : 07:15:10
quote:
Originally posted by Brenigin
I imagine the character would have Correllon as their patron (goal is to take the Champion of Correllon Larethian PrC from Races of the Wild) but see Lathander as a shining example of how there is always scope to refresh and renew one's view of the world (as oppossed to the quasi-xenophobic nature of Sun Elves in particular). It's a clumsy example, but it would be a little like a Muslim working for a Christian charity - first priority to "do good", second priority to get some 2-way understanding happening. Wearing a Red Cross armband doesn't make him any less a Muslim, yet he still represents an ostensibly Christian organisation. And here should end the discussion of real world religion.
The Crusade from the Last Mythal will definitely play a part in this character's future. After all, wasn't Lathander one of the primary human gods worshipped in Myth Drannor.
IMHO I would not let a character worship two deities, if his goal is to take any prestige class levels (Champion of Corellon, Divine Champion, Dweomerkeeper, Sunlord, etcetera). Taking one of those Prestige Classes means to be a devoted follower, who worships ONLY the deity that grants the class.
It would be too easy to abuse the rules ("Hey, I want to be a Champion of Corellon and Forest Master of Silvanus... both are nature-related prestige classes, right?") |
| Kuje |
Posted - 29 May 2006 : 03:24:20
quote:
Originally posted by Reefy
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I really feel bad for the cleric that gets his spells from Cyric and Shar, he's gotta be insane. :)
The question is whether they were insane before they started praying to Cyric and Shar, or after.
Even so, if he wasn't before that, he has to be now. :) |
| Brenigin |
Posted - 29 May 2006 : 02:42:47
I imagine the character would have Correllon as their patron (goal is to take the Champion of Correllon Larethian PrC from Races of the Wild) but see Lathander as a shining example of how there is always scope to refresh and renew one's view of the world (as oppossed to the quasi-xenophobic nature of Sun Elves in particular). It's a clumsy example, but it would be a little like a Muslim working for a Christian charity - first priority to "do good", second priority to get some 2-way understanding happening. Wearing a Red Cross armband doesn't make him any less a Muslim, yet he still represents an ostensibly Christian organisation. And here should end the discussion of real world religion.
The Crusade from the Last Mythal will definitely play a part in this character's future. After all, wasn't Lathander one of the primary human gods worshipped in Myth Drannor.
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| Reefy |
Posted - 29 May 2006 : 01:33:19
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I really feel bad for the cleric that gets his spells from Cyric and Shar, he's gotta be insane. :)
The question is whether they were insane before they started praying to Cyric and Shar, or after. |
| scererar |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 22:40:10
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
It does matter, because it can open up additional Prestige Classes, and there are also the Initiate Feats which open up one's spell list and gives additional abilities.
I'd say that the character can choose from amongst the domains of the two deities, but cannot dedicate themself enough to either deity to qualify for initiate feats or prestige classes. If they take either, they must rededicate themself to that deity through the process of deity changing detailed in the FRCS and PHBII.
What would your take be on the triadic knight from p124 of powers of PoF.
It seems that character in this case would receive the benefits from all three gods equally. The answer here probably lies in that they are all within the same pantheon.
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| Asgetrion |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 21:59:51
quote:
Originally posted by nb_nmare
Alternatively, you could create a new "Initiate of X and Y" feat, perhaps with half the spells from each of the two regular Initiate feats. After all, there's already the "Initiate of Nature" (combining spells from Eldath, Mielikki and Silvanus) feat in PGtF.
This one is a bit tricky - Initiate of Elven Dawn? Dawn and Elven Arts? Elven Warfare and Dawn? Sunny warfare? Initiate of Corellathander? Lathcorellon?  |
| nb_nmare |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 21:41:16
Alternatively, you could create a new "Initiate of X and Y" feat, perhaps with half the spells from each of the two regular Initiate feats. After all, there's already the "Initiate of Nature" (combining spells from Eldath, Mielikki and Silvanus) feat in PGtF. |
| Arivia |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 21:35:16
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
It does matter, because it can open up additional Prestige Classes, and there are also the Initiate Feats which open up one's spell list and gives additional abilities.
I'd say that the character can choose from amongst the domains of the two deities, but cannot dedicate themself enough to either deity to qualify for initiate feats or prestige classes. If they take either, they must rededicate themself to that deity through the process of deity changing detailed in the FRCS and PHBII. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 21:33:37
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
And I am a complete idiot 
Of course Sune and Hanali are from different pantheons. When I read 'Sune', I thought 'Aerdrie', so that was why I wrote that. My apologies.
Still, my opinion is that I would not allow divine spellcasters to worship and receive spells from two (or more) patrons in my campaigns.
Grin. :)
And well, your call but in canon it's allowed and so I'd allow it if it made sense to do so. :)
I really feel bad for the cleric that gets his spells from Cyric and Shar, he's gotta be insane. :) |
| nb_nmare |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 21:32:41
Don't forget that it also affects what domains they can chose from. |
| warlockco |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 20:35:06
quote:
Originally posted by Vainelus
For a paladin, it does not matter mechanically if they receive spells from two deities, since that does not change the spells available to them in the least. I would allow it in my game, it could provide interesting roleplay opportunities, just think about a disagreement between some Lathander clerics and Correllon clerics, and your paladin having to pick sides. Now the numbers could get tricky for a cleric considering the domains and initiate feats.
On a side note, I do not know if you have read the Last Mythal series, or not but your players paladin sounds ripe for working with the Crusaders.
It does matter, because it can open up additional Prestige Classes, and there are also the Initiate Feats which open up one's spell list and gives additional abilities. |
| warlockco |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 20:32:09
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Well, remember that most people in the Realms can worship one or two deities... or even an entire pantheon on a given day. And we've seen examples of divine casters who receive their spells from two different deities.
Salyndra Shaern who is a female half-elf cleric and worships both Oghma and Corellon equally.
Myrmeen Lhal, the ranger and ruler of Arabel, worships both Mielikki and Tymora.
And there is also Larajin -- from Heirs of Prophecy by Lisa Smedman. She worships both Hanali and Sune.
I'm not really sure how it would work mechanics wise (since mechanics aren't my strong point)... but there are definitely lore examples of divine casters worshipping more than one deity.
Problem is of the 3 you mentioned, two are Half-Elves that worship an Elven and a Human diety. Myrmeen Lhal is the only exception to that, and she is following a Nature Goddess, and the Goddess of Luck, only a fool would ignore Luck.
I could definately see it if the character was a Half-Elf, a possible thing to do is use one of the Variant Paladins from Unearthed Arcana or Dragon #310. Both of which have Chaotic Good Paladins. |
| Vainelus |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 20:16:24
For a paladin, it does not matter mechanically if they receive spells from two deities, since that does not change the spells available to them in the least. I would allow it in my game, it could provide interesting roleplay opportunities, just think about a disagreement between some Lathander clerics and Correllon clerics, and your paladin having to pick sides. Now the numbers could get tricky for a cleric considering the domains and initiate feats.
On a side note, I do not know if you have read the Last Mythal series, or not but your players paladin sounds ripe for working with the Crusaders.
|
| Brenigin |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 20:07:46
Thanks for your thoughts, all. I knew of other examples, such as Larajin, the Dwarf Paladin in Champions of Valor of Gorm Gulthym(sp?) who serves Helm, etc. I wanted to make sure, however, that there was no obscure titbit or lore I'd missed saying Lathander and Correllon hated each other or some such :) |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 19:51:04
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
As The Sage pointed out Larajin -- from Heirs of Prophecy by Lisa Smedman worships **and recieves divine spells from** both Hanali and Sune. When she casts spells from Sune rose petals appear and when she casts spells from Hanali the scent of lilacs or somesuch fills the air. Something like that anyway. I highly recommend the novel.
True enough... but these are two deities of the same (elven) pantheon. I think it would a bit hard to believe that a divine spellcaster would receive spells from two separate deities of different pantheons.
No they aren't. Hanali is elven pantheon, Sune is human pantheon. :)
Plus, as was pointed out, there are other clerics that worship dieties outside of thier pantheons and receives spells from both of those deities.
And I am a complete idiot
Of course Sune and Hanali are from different pantheons. When I read 'Sune', I thought 'Aerdrie', so that was why I wrote that. My apologies.
Still, my opinion is that I would not allow divine spellcasters to worship and receive spells from two (or more) patrons in my campaigns. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 17:28:47
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
As The Sage pointed out Larajin -- from Heirs of Prophecy by Lisa Smedman worships **and recieves divine spells from** both Hanali and Sune. When she casts spells from Sune rose petals appear and when she casts spells from Hanali the scent of lilacs or somesuch fills the air. Something like that anyway. I highly recommend the novel.
True enough... but these are two deities of the same (elven) pantheon. I think it would a bit hard to believe that a divine spellcaster would receive spells from two separate deities of different pantheons.
No they aren't. Hanali is elven pantheon, Sune is human pantheon. :)
Plus, as was pointed out, there are other clerics that worship dieties outside of thier pantheons and receives spells from both of those deities. |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 15:28:38
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
As The Sage pointed out Larajin -- from Heirs of Prophecy by Lisa Smedman worships **and recieves divine spells from** both Hanali and Sune. When she casts spells from Sune rose petals appear and when she casts spells from Hanali the scent of lilacs or somesuch fills the air. Something like that anyway. I highly recommend the novel.
True enough... but these are two deities of the same (elven) pantheon. I think it would a bit hard to believe that a divine spellcaster would receive spells from two separate deities of different pantheons. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 15:24:11
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Corellon and Lathander are deities of two different pantheons, and I would not let any PC paladin to receive spells from both of them.
Really, that wouldn't matter.
Ed told us back in May '04 that most races can freely worship outside their traditional racial pantheons provided there's a valid reason for it -- in other words... pantheons and the deities associated with them *aren't* racially specific.
And as we've seen in some of the lore in 1e/2e/3e FR... most races have groups that have, on occasion, worshipped deities outside their more traditional racial pantheons. Demihuman Deities notes several examples of humans worshipping dwarven deities and dwarves worshipping gnomish and elven deities for example. As well as for two of the characters I mentioned above.
So, the elven paladin in Brenigin's example can also worship Lathander in this case... since it agrees with what Ed has said in the past about such a concept.
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