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 Who is the best spellcaster in the realms

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T O P I C    R E V I E W
Magus Rages Posted - 26 Oct 2005 : 01:46:19
Hello everyone, I had just thought of a question and had been wondering for some time. All right, this poll asks all the scribes, veteran and elite scribes of candlekeep who you think is the best, most powerful, most superior spellcaster in the realms in terms of your own opinion, not based on some stats. A honest vote and honest reply is greatly appreciated, I express my thanks to all in advance. Thank you.

25   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
cpthero2 Posted - 01 Dec 2020 : 04:55:17
Senior Scribe Delnyn,

I think that (5) level split in transferring over to Ultimate Magus from Wizard is a winner. Very nice selection.

Best regards,


Delnyn Posted - 30 Nov 2020 : 23:37:07
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I'm sure it has to be a dragon. Perhaps Imvaernarho or Larendrammagar. Or one way older.



For a dragon, I would add Daurgothoth to the mix. Your choices are excellent. Imvaernarho and Larendrammagar beat Daurgothoth as sorcerors, but Daurgothoth has 25 levels of wizardry as well, giving him massive versatility as well.

The minmaxer in me is sorely tempted to change his Wizard 20/ Archmage 5 to Wizard 10/Ultimate Magus 10/Archmage 5 (archmage going to the wizard spellcasting). That would bump up his sorceror caster level to 26 and wizard caster level to 29.
cpthero2 Posted - 30 Nov 2020 : 21:43:37
Acolyte Returnip,

No kidding. Look at how Deneir had Cadderly go deal with that elder vampire. lol Crispy doesn't even begin to demonstrate the rage. ;)

Best regards,



cpthero2 Posted - 30 Nov 2020 : 21:41:30
Acolyte Returnip,

haha, that is pretty nutty. Dressing up as the damage dealing wizard, to then want to be the ultimate diviner. Madness. Sounds RP intense... ;)

Best regards,





Returnip Posted - 30 Nov 2020 : 18:11:47
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

quote:
Originally posted by Returnip

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
I could picture Deneir and Oghma getting irate if such a spell destroyed/damaged a repository (Candlekeep!) of books and other media of knowledge.


Waaay too many wards on Candlekeep for that being a problem, don't you think?



What wards? Larloch sucked them all dry and went to Myth Drannor for seconds.



Did that happen after 3.5 ed? Because I'm stuck in the past.
Zeromaru X Posted - 30 Nov 2020 : 14:17:59
I'm sure it has to be a dragon. Perhaps Imvaernarho or Larendrammagar. Or one way older.
Delnyn Posted - 30 Nov 2020 : 14:02:27
quote:
Originally posted by Returnip

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
I could picture Deneir and Oghma getting irate if such a spell destroyed/damaged a repository (Candlekeep!) of books and other media of knowledge.


Waaay too many wards on Candlekeep for that being a problem, don't you think?



What wards? Larloch sucked them all dry and went to Myth Drannor for seconds.
Returnip Posted - 30 Nov 2020 : 09:04:55
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
I could picture Deneir and Oghma getting irate if such a spell destroyed/damaged a repository (Candlekeep!) of books and other media of knowledge.


Waaay too many wards on Candlekeep for that being a problem, don't you think?
Returnip Posted - 30 Nov 2020 : 09:01:26
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Actually had an argument here with someone who insisted that there was no possible circumstance in which a wizard shouldn't be fully loaded with combat spells. In his hidden tower in the middle of nowhere, crafting magic items and/or doing research? Combat spells. Hanging out with his lady? Combat spells. And so on...



I had a player like that. He would always prepare maximized magic missile (ok, your enemy casts reflect projectiles) and then on top of that he always carried around a heavy crossbow because he didn't want to waste his spells, and since he couldn't shoot for sh't he mostly ended up pegging his companions in the back. Then he wanted to pick up the Loremaster prestige class...
cpthero2 Posted - 30 Nov 2020 : 07:14:21
Master Rupert,

haha, that is rich! You know, those people just have to hang out more and let it all sink in! ;)

Best regards,



Delnyn Posted - 29 Nov 2020 : 18:16:03
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

I am good with your description of the trade-off between the "toolbox size" versus available on "demand".

Definitely yes about wizards being the party Batman. The wizard is the problem solver, detective and the one who fills in the gaps left by the other party members. Wizards really should NOT be stockpiling on just combat spells. That is what warmages and to a lesser extent warlocks and sorcerors are for. If a wizard must blast, that is what wands are for. Otherwise, wizards in combat do better as battlefield controllers than in direct damage roles.


Actually had an argument here with someone who insisted that there was no possible circumstance in which a wizard shouldn't be fully loaded with combat spells. In his hidden tower in the middle of nowhere, crafting magic items and/or doing research? Combat spells. Hanging out with his lady? Combat spells. And so on...



There is no reasoning with people who have that attitude. I only hope that player did not cause a TPK with his or her willful lack of preparation. "18 Intelligence but 3 Wisdom"
Wooly Rupert Posted - 29 Nov 2020 : 17:53:30
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

I am good with your description of the trade-off between the "toolbox size" versus available on "demand".

Definitely yes about wizards being the party Batman. The wizard is the problem solver, detective and the one who fills in the gaps left by the other party members. Wizards really should NOT be stockpiling on just combat spells. That is what warmages and to a lesser extent warlocks and sorcerors are for. If a wizard must blast, that is what wands are for. Otherwise, wizards in combat do better as battlefield controllers than in direct damage roles.


Actually had an argument here with someone who insisted that there was no possible circumstance in which a wizard shouldn't be fully loaded with combat spells. In his hidden tower in the middle of nowhere, crafting magic items and/or doing research? Combat spells. Hanging out with his lady? Combat spells. And so on...
Delnyn Posted - 29 Nov 2020 : 16:39:03
I am good with your description of the trade-off between the "toolbox size" versus available on "demand".

Definitely yes about wizards being the party Batman. The wizard is the problem solver, detective and the one who fills in the gaps left by the other party members. Wizards really should NOT be stockpiling on just combat spells. That is what warmages and to a lesser extent warlocks and sorcerors are for. If a wizard must blast, that is what wands are for. Otherwise, wizards in combat do better as battlefield controllers than in direct damage roles.

I heartily recommend the scroll started by Cosmar about filling his PC wizard's spellbook. For example, Ayrik made a very good point about including dispel magic. Certain spells have more occassions for use both in and out of combat. Dispel magic and summoning spells are the first that come to mind.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

I am not convinced "best" should equate to combat prowess. Spontaneous casters of course have the advantage in spur-of-the-moment decision making situations, assuming their spell repertoire has a spell for the situation. Sorcerors work better in niche roles than wizards, all else being equal. Wizards are the Swiss Army knives of adventuring parties.


I'd argue that it's sorcerers that are the Swiss Army knives -- if they know a spell, it's always handy. The wizard who loaded up on combat spells, expecting a big fight, is going to be useless when he needs a utility spell he didn't memorize today.

Granted, sorcerers have less spells, so a wizard is more likely to know the most useful spell for a given situation -- but the tradeoff is that the wizard has to be prepared for that situation, and/or that it only happens once.

Wizards dominate when they can properly prepare -- but sorcerers are always prepared, though to a lesser extent. The wizard has a larger toolbox, but he may not have the right tool handy -- the sorcerer has a smaller toolbox, but all of his tools are always readily at hand.

Actually, wizards remind me of Batman. Batman fans will go on and on, at length, about how he can beat anyone at all, given time to prepare. And whether or not that's true, it doesn't change the fact that other supers always have their full suite of powers handy, and that an unprepared Batman will be in trouble.

Delnyn Posted - 29 Nov 2020 : 15:54:54
Savras would pointedly ask the proposed caster if he checked for gas reservoirs under the surface or exposing Underdark portals that connect to the Abyss. (A hook to OoTA). I could picture Deneir and Oghma getting irate if such a spell destroyed/damaged a repository (Candlekeep!) of books and other media of knowledge.

That hypothetical rematch between Azuth and Savras and chat with Sylune amused me. Picturing Savras wreaking more annihilation than the tarrasque with Locate City Bomb on whim demand.

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

I am not convinced "best" should equate to combat prowess. Spontaneous casters of course have the advantage in spur-of-the-moment decision making situations, assuming their spell repertoire has a spell for the situation. Sorcerors work better in niche roles than wizards, all else being equal. Wizards are the Swiss Army knives of adventuring parties.

The spontaneous divination ACF for wizards frankly raises my eyebrows in terms of wizard flexibility. (On a side note powergamers should know I unconditionally banned Locate City Bomb in my campaigns. The attempt alone to cast the spell would sorely annoy Savras.)




Would he be annoyed, or would he be intrigued that a mortal had so creatively reinterpreted the rules of divinatory magic.

Then the next thing anyone knows, Savras's next duel with Azuth goes a wee bit differently...

Mystra: "Kyah! Az...Azuth-kun!"
Velsharoon: "Sasuga, Savras-dono."
Savras: "XDXDXDXD...now, I think I'm going to have a nice chat with Sylune..."


LordofBones Posted - 29 Nov 2020 : 05:04:44
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

I am not convinced "best" should equate to combat prowess. Spontaneous casters of course have the advantage in spur-of-the-moment decision making situations, assuming their spell repertoire has a spell for the situation. Sorcerors work better in niche roles than wizards, all else being equal. Wizards are the Swiss Army knives of adventuring parties.

The spontaneous divination ACF for wizards frankly raises my eyebrows in terms of wizard flexibility. (On a side note powergamers should know I unconditionally banned Locate City Bomb in my campaigns. The attempt alone to cast the spell would sorely annoy Savras.)




Would he be annoyed, or would he be intrigued that a mortal had so creatively reinterpreted the rules of divinatory magic.

Then the next thing anyone knows, Savras's next duel with Azuth goes a wee bit differently...

Mystra: "Kyah! Az...Azuth-kun!"
Velsharoon: "Sasuga, Savras-dono."
Savras: "XDXDXDXD...now, I think I'm going to have a nice chat with Sylune..."
Wooly Rupert Posted - 28 Nov 2020 : 18:39:33
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Rupert,

I will say, as it appeared you were arguing for, that if an equal level diviner and sorcerer got into an instant fight, I think that sorcerer would likely clean up, unless that diviner could escape first. Though, after that, that sorcerer would be screwed with that diviner wanting some healthy revenge.

Best regards,





I wasn't addressing diviners specifically. And a wizard prepped for a fight will easily take a sorcerer.

My point is that wizards have to put a lot more effort into preparation, and that can be a huge drawback. It can be an advantage, too, but I'd rather be a sorcerer and not have to guess correctly to be effective.
cpthero2 Posted - 28 Nov 2020 : 17:54:49
Master Rupert,

I will say, as it appeared you were arguing for, that if an equal level diviner and sorcerer got into an instant fight, I think that sorcerer would likely clean up, unless that diviner could escape first. Though, after that, that sorcerer would be screwed with that diviner wanting some healthy revenge.

Best regards,




cpthero2 Posted - 28 Nov 2020 : 17:38:27
Senior Scribe Delnyn,

quote:
I am not convinced "best" should equate to combat prowess. Spontaneous casters of course have the advantage in spur-of-the-moment decision making situations, assuming their spell repertoire has a spell for the situation. Sorcerors work better in niche roles than wizards, all else being equal. Wizards are the Swiss Army knives of adventuring parties.


Well, I do agree with you there. That's why I've argued that the overall qualities (as I mentioned earlier regarding Shoon VII) are not just combat prowess. His capacity to project power based on his qualities as an insanely powerful wizard, coupled with his being arguably the most powerful demi-lich of all of them, makes him incredibly powerful.

However, I've argued (likely that you've seen) that divination is the most powerful of all schools of magic. There's a reason why Halruaa has continued to have Netyarch's who are diviner's time and again.

I mean, if you always know what's up, you can just avoid or control things until the right time to strike comes about.

Best regards,




Wooly Rupert Posted - 28 Nov 2020 : 16:18:43
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

I am not convinced "best" should equate to combat prowess. Spontaneous casters of course have the advantage in spur-of-the-moment decision making situations, assuming their spell repertoire has a spell for the situation. Sorcerors work better in niche roles than wizards, all else being equal. Wizards are the Swiss Army knives of adventuring parties.


I'd argue that it's sorcerers that are the Swiss Army knives -- if they know a spell, it's always handy. The wizard who loaded up on combat spells, expecting a big fight, is going to be useless when he needs a utility spell he didn't memorize today.

Granted, sorcerers have less spells, so a wizard is more likely to know the most useful spell for a given situation -- but the tradeoff is that the wizard has to be prepared for that situation, and/or that it only happens once.

Wizards dominate when they can properly prepare -- but sorcerers are always prepared, though to a lesser extent. The wizard has a larger toolbox, but he may not have the right tool handy -- the sorcerer has a smaller toolbox, but all of his tools are always readily at hand.

Actually, wizards remind me of Batman. Batman fans will go on and on, at length, about how he can beat anyone at all, given time to prepare. And whether or not that's true, it doesn't change the fact that other supers always have their full suite of powers handy, and that an unprepared Batman will be in trouble.
Delnyn Posted - 28 Nov 2020 : 14:15:01
I am not convinced "best" should equate to combat prowess. Spontaneous casters of course have the advantage in spur-of-the-moment decision making situations, assuming their spell repertoire has a spell for the situation. Sorcerors work better in niche roles than wizards, all else being equal. Wizards are the Swiss Army knives of adventuring parties.

The spontaneous divination ACF for wizards frankly raises my eyebrows in terms of wizard flexibility. (On a side note powergamers should know I unconditionally banned Locate City Bomb in my campaigns. The attempt alone to cast the spell would sorely annoy Savras.)
Wooly Rupert Posted - 28 Nov 2020 : 06:53:02
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Rupert,

Ahhh. I see. I just looked that up. It looks pretty cool. I had way too much D&D in my mind thinking about that, but after a little bit of a review, I see that the Steampunk aspect appears to round it nicely. All d6 I noticed. Is it like GURPS with all skill based?

Best regards,



The original version of the IKRPG was 3E D&D, as I recall, though there were a couple 3.5 products. Then they went their own way; I can't speak on that ruleset. (Their Monsternomicon books were excellent; some of my fave monster books from that era -- they were more like the 2E Monstrous Compendium entries than the "this is a bag of XP and GP" entries that have rule monster books since 3E came out)

We were playing Pathfinder, which is an outgrowth of 3.5.

Now the tabletop minis wargames, Warmachine and Hordes, those are based on 2d6 rules -- but that's wargames, not RPGs. The wargames came first.
cpthero2 Posted - 28 Nov 2020 : 05:47:34
Master Rupert,

Ahhh. I see. I just looked that up. It looks pretty cool. I had way too much D&D in my mind thinking about that, but after a little bit of a review, I see that the Steampunk aspect appears to round it nicely. All d6 I noticed. Is it like GURPS with all skill based?

Best regards,




Wooly Rupert Posted - 28 Nov 2020 : 05:34:06
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Rupert,

Ahh, that's cool. Out of curiosity. Did you feel that firearms broke the game, or were just underwhelming (on the other side of the spectrum there)?

Best regards,




Neither. Firearms are a part of the Iron Kingdoms setting.
cpthero2 Posted - 28 Nov 2020 : 05:22:31
Master Rupert,

Ahh, that's cool. Out of curiosity. Did you feel that firearms broke the game, or were just underwhelming (on the other side of the spectrum there)?

Best regards,




Wooly Rupert Posted - 28 Nov 2020 : 00:13:51
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Rupert,

Ahhh, gotcha. That makes sense. I've never used firearms in my D&D games, so I just figured you could add in any spell you like to it. That's still pretty awesome though that you can add Shocking Grasp in on it.

Best regards,




We were playing Pathfinder rules in the Iron Kingdoms setting. That setting is a mix of steampunk and fantasy -- hence, elements like channeling spells through pistols or having steam-powered robots with magical brains.

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