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T O P I C    R E V I E W
Zaknafein Posted - 24 May 2003 : 04:41:08
hi, i am quite familiar with the Realms, but i don't know much about it back in the days of Netheril. I know it once held great mages and magics, but can someone please give me some more information about this city?
25   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
cpthero2 Posted - 14 Feb 2020 : 20:48:16
Master Krashos,

Indeed I did. Thank you!

Best regards,



quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Krashos,

Revitalizing this for another question: any chance you might consider updating it to the older 3.5/PF 1st systems? Some of us are still never-adopters. haha

Best regards,



I'm pretty sure my Mantle stuff was already 3.5E compatible. Have you tracked it down?

-- George Krashos

TBeholder Posted - 11 Feb 2020 : 00:37:19
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Great Reader Ayrik and Master TBeholder,

I have to admit this makes a lot of sense to me here. I have a perfect example

Whether it's perfect can be seen with the help of a simple question: do the professors of mathematics use partial fraction decomposition semi-regularly to avoid being burned alive?
And it's a rhetorical question.
They don't even try to set each other on fire all that often.
The matters of aesthetics and even convenience are never a good analogy for #SkinInTheGame matters.

quote:
from when I was getting my minor in mathematics as I went towards my other degrees. I was taking my 2nd quarter of calculus, and was learning about partial fraction decomposition. It was an arduous, and dumb thing to learn. My instructor said it was dumb, and it wasn't needed anymore. He said it was an antiquated approach and served no purpose in modern mathematics anymore. So, he got rid of it. haha

While it doesn't come up as often as adding/subtracting fractions, it's merely reverse of the same, isn't it? Which is yet another good reason for the exercise, even if they don't expect it to be directly useful.
cpthero2 Posted - 10 Feb 2020 : 18:25:40
Good morning Master Krashos,

I have not yet, though I plan to today or tomorrow as I find time from that damn thing called work! ;)

Best regards,



quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Krashos,

Revitalizing this for another question: any chance you might consider updating it to the older 3.5/PF 1st systems? Some of us are still never-adopters. haha

Best regards,



I'm pretty sure my Mantle stuff was already 3.5E compatible. Have you tracked it down?

-- George Krashos

cpthero2 Posted - 10 Feb 2020 : 07:43:30
Great Reader Ayrik and Master TBeholder,

I have to admit this makes a lot of sense to me here. I have a perfect example from when I was getting my minor in mathematics as I went towards my other degrees. I was taking my 2nd quarter of calculus, and was learning about partial fraction decomposition. It was an arduous, and dumb thing to learn. My instructor said it was dumb, and it wasn't needed anymore. He said it was an antiquated approach and served no purpose in modern mathematics anymore. So, he got rid of it. haha

My point is just that, other professors of mathematics about lost their collective minds when they heard of PFD being tossed because the traditions were violated. I think mathematicians still know what it served a purpose for, and that was that old tradition they wanted to keep, even though they found ways around it.

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Modern medicine, chemistry, and astrophysics have "mostly abandoned [the old] traditions" of witch doctors, medieval alchemy, and occult astrology which came before them. Sometimes the Old Ways still contain useful nuggets of lore (herbal cures, metallurgical methods, observed celestial events, etc) which are still valuable ... but there's good reasons for discarding them in preference of the new paradigms.

George Krashos Posted - 10 Feb 2020 : 07:18:21
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Krashos,

Revitalizing this for another question: any chance you might consider updating it to the older 3.5/PF 1st systems? Some of us are still never-adopters. haha

Best regards,



I'm pretty sure my Mantle stuff was already 3.5E compatible. Have you tracked it down?

-- George Krashos
Ayrik Posted - 10 Feb 2020 : 01:45:24
Modern medicine, chemistry, and astrophysics have "mostly abandoned [the old] traditions" of witch doctors, medieval alchemy, and occult astrology which came before them. Sometimes the Old Ways still contain useful nuggets of lore (herbal cures, metallurgical methods, observed celestial events, etc) which are still valuable ... but there's good reasons for discarding them in preference of the new paradigms.
TBeholder Posted - 10 Feb 2020 : 00:40:23
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Those enclaves were not flying upside down mountain tops. He also stressed the importance of "mantle" magic to the Netherese. [..] There were no mythallars mentioned

Indeed, the Netheril book covered enclaves and added mythallars, but Elven roots were a bit of plot hole.
I mean, the Netherese were taught by the elves of Eaerlann. Even if they mostly abandoned those traditions after discovering the Scrolls, they'd keep some useful things. And if the Scrolls are supposed to build on the reader's existing understanding, why would this lead to abandoning the old ways completely?
cpthero2 Posted - 09 Feb 2020 : 17:27:55
Eric,

Thank you much good sir!

Best regards,

ericlboyd Posted - 08 Feb 2020 : 10:54:01
There is a mechanical write-up of mantle magic for 3.5e in Lost Empires of Faerun, page 112.

--Eric
cpthero2 Posted - 08 Feb 2020 : 07:47:13
Master Krashos,

Revitalizing this for another question: any chance you might consider updating it to the older 3.5/PF 1st systems? Some of us are still never-adopters. haha

Best regards,


cpthero2 Posted - 28 Sep 2018 : 01:19:45
Master Krashos,

I really appreciate you letting me know that. I will certainly check that out. I've greatly appreciated your other works. Thank you for making me aware of that!

As always, best regards.



quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

I did a write-up of my take on mantle magic using 3E Epic magic and that's in my thread here at the 'Keep.

Doesn't really work in 5E so haven't bothered updating it.

-- George Krashos

George Krashos Posted - 28 Sep 2018 : 01:08:26
I did a write-up of my take on mantle magic using 3E Epic magic and that's in my thread here at the 'Keep.

Doesn't really work in 5E so haven't bothered updating it.

-- George Krashos
cpthero2 Posted - 28 Sep 2018 : 00:31:56
Great Reader sleyvas,

I concur wholeheartedly! To see something concrete on mantle magic would have been nothing short of epic. The Silver and especially Golden era's of the Netheril Empire are called as much for a very good reason.

Best regards,



quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

No, the handout isn't available generally. In a nutshell, Ed noted that the Netherese wizards all formed "enclaves" (i.e holdings) where they did what they wanted (rainbow colored waterfalls, reverse gravity effects, climate anomalies - unmelting snow in a hot desert environment, etc.). Those enclaves were not flying upside down mountain tops. He also stressed the importance of "mantle" magic to the Netherese. Between these enclaves were the forest domains of the "Free Folk" who traded with the wizards, hunted, farmed and generally co-existed, save where they were hunted or persecuted themselves by the wizards. There were no mythallars mentioned in the (short, one page) handout.

-- George Krashos



You hit on the one thing there that I would have love to have seen some serious info on... Netherese Mantle Magics.... I remember looking at the "magic of incarnum" book and thinking that conceptually it was a system that might have worked towards a "mantle bearer" concept... granted a baby version in the making... but there's a nice "idea" in there. That's not to say of course that I don't love the concept of using contingent spell affects with mantles like what was done with Lost Empires of Faerun, but I think there should be some mixing of the two concepts.


sleyvas Posted - 27 Sep 2018 : 23:47:46
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

No, the handout isn't available generally. In a nutshell, Ed noted that the Netherese wizards all formed "enclaves" (i.e holdings) where they did what they wanted (rainbow colored waterfalls, reverse gravity effects, climate anomalies - unmelting snow in a hot desert environment, etc.). Those enclaves were not flying upside down mountain tops. He also stressed the importance of "mantle" magic to the Netherese. Between these enclaves were the forest domains of the "Free Folk" who traded with the wizards, hunted, farmed and generally co-existed, save where they were hunted or persecuted themselves by the wizards. There were no mythallars mentioned in the (short, one page) handout.

-- George Krashos



You hit on the one thing there that I would have love to have seen some serious info on... Netherese Mantle Magics.... I remember looking at the "magic of incarnum" book and thinking that conceptually it was a system that might have worked towards a "mantle bearer" concept... granted a baby version in the making... but there's a nice "idea" in there. That's not to say of course that I don't love the concept of using contingent spell affects with mantles like what was done with Lost Empires of Faerun, but I think there should be some mixing of the two concepts.
The Masked Mage Posted - 27 Sep 2018 : 14:00:42
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Hey Faraer, great to have you here!

Why am I 'so' hard on Slade? Mainly because he was lead designer on a couple of headline FR products (Netheril and The North boxed set) and didn't do a particularly good job on either. The North is pretty much just a re-hashed FR5 and Volo's Guide to the North (really the only new stuff was on Silverymoon), and Netheril was what I would consider to be a lazy product. Lots of filler, useless stuff like lists of Netherese spells and their modern equivalent, a history that is out of kilter with the previously published Realms, an emphasis on 'overkill' (let's have the first orc horde to hit Netheril number a 100,000 orcs! Good idea, Slade! ...), and a failure to capture Netheril as envisaged by Ed Greenwood (and he has no excuse for this one: I have the Netheril hand-out he sent Slade before he started writing up the boxed set. He practically ignored the whole document!). Essentially, I thinki that Netheril has wonderful potential but was poorly done - and greatly contributed to the demise of the Arcane Age line - one of my favourites thanks to Steven Schend. 'Nuff said.

-- George Krashos




Totally in agreement.
cpthero2 Posted - 27 Sep 2018 : 11:58:01
Master Krashos,

I envy your possession of that! That is so absolutely great.

By the way: thank you for all of the amazing works that you have put together and submitted to this site. They are wonderful.

Best regards,



quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

No, the handout isn't available generally. In a nutshell, Ed noted that the Netherese wizards all formed "enclaves" (i.e holdings) where they did what they wanted (rainbow colored waterfalls, reverse gravity effects, climate anomalies - unmelting snow in a hot desert environment, etc.). Those enclaves were not flying upside down mountain tops. He also stressed the importance of "mantle" magic to the Netherese. Between these enclaves were the forest domains of the "Free Folk" who traded with the wizards, hunted, farmed and generally co-existed, save where they were hunted or persecuted themselves by the wizards. There were no mythallars mentioned in the (short, one page) handout.

-- George Krashos

George Krashos Posted - 27 Sep 2018 : 06:19:17
No, the handout isn't available generally. In a nutshell, Ed noted that the Netherese wizards all formed "enclaves" (i.e holdings) where they did what they wanted (rainbow colored waterfalls, reverse gravity effects, climate anomalies - unmelting snow in a hot desert environment, etc.). Those enclaves were not flying upside down mountain tops. He also stressed the importance of "mantle" magic to the Netherese. Between these enclaves were the forest domains of the "Free Folk" who traded with the wizards, hunted, farmed and generally co-existed, save where they were hunted or persecuted themselves by the wizards. There were no mythallars mentioned in the (short, one page) handout.

-- George Krashos
cpthero2 Posted - 27 Sep 2018 : 04:27:11
Master Krashos,

Is there somewhere that the hand-out you reference here within, is available? I can't think of many things that I would love to see more than that artifact of lore! I imagine you treasure that greatly.

Best regards,



quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Hey Faraer, great to have you here!

Why am I 'so' hard on Slade? Mainly because he was lead designer on a couple of headline FR products (Netheril and The North boxed set) and didn't do a particularly good job on either. The North is pretty much just a re-hashed FR5 and Volo's Guide to the North (really the only new stuff was on Silverymoon), and Netheril was what I would consider to be a lazy product. Lots of filler, useless stuff like lists of Netherese spells and their modern equivalent, a history that is out of kilter with the previously published Realms, an emphasis on 'overkill' (let's have the first orc horde to hit Netheril number a 100,000 orcs! Good idea, Slade! ...), and a failure to capture Netheril as envisaged by Ed Greenwood (and he has no excuse for this one: I have the Netheril hand-out he sent Slade before he started writing up the boxed set. He practically ignored the whole document!). Essentially, I thinki that Netheril has wonderful potential but was poorly done - and greatly contributed to the demise of the Arcane Age line - one of my favourites thanks to Steven Schend. 'Nuff said.

-- George Krashos


branmakmuffin Posted - 05 Jun 2003 : 23:38:03
Mournblade:
quote:
THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS!!! I was not sure that anyone else realised this and it was Frustrating.

It must have been frustrating for to you capitalize it.

Zaknafein, you might as well get How the Mighty Are Fallen while you're at it.
The Sage Posted - 01 Jun 2003 : 09:40:23
Dwarves Deep was also one of my favorite FR products too. Ed Greenwood's work on the early products of FR never ceases to amaze me.

I agree that an updated Dwarves Deep tome would be a fantastic sourcebook also. In fact if they did update the material for 3e, Ed would have to be the one to write it. A great addition to his first work.



May your learning be free and unfettered

George Krashos Posted - 01 Jun 2003 : 09:21:55
I wholeheartedly agree with you Sage of Perth. The Great Rift .... dawrves in general in fact. FR11 is one of my all time favourite FR products. An update of FR11 with new info on extant clans and holdings of the dwarves would be a brilliant 3E product IMHO.

-- George Krashos
The Sage Posted - 29 May 2003 : 13:42:07
It's a real shame that all the information that was meant for that Arcane Age product you mentioned George was not reprinted elsewhere. I studied the specific details you mentioned were included in those other sourcebooks, but still I would have like more. The cavern of the Great Rift, is one of my favorite areas of the southern Realms.

Good learning...



- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms Lore needs

George Krashos Posted - 28 May 2003 : 17:03:22
Hey Faraer.

The next Arcane Age project that never quite got there was "Telantiwar" - the cavern of the drow that became the Great Rift. Some of the material from that project made it into Empires of the Shining South and Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark.

Eric did tell me way back when that he had a CC2 version of the map but as I don't have that program, I didn't get it off him....

-- George Krashos
Faraer Posted - 27 May 2003 : 17:35:41
Thanks George, though it's a little dusty in here.

Yes, The North helped to establish the misconception that further books on already described regions were bound to be repetitive and redundant, and Netheril contributed to the end of the Arcane Age line, which didn't make you happy. Remind us which ancient drow city was next on the list? I still think Delzoun was the obvious choice, as it could have shored up the history of the North, given dwarf lore for contemporary campaigns, provided one of those dungeons I want to see, and counterbalanced the infantilist elf bias.

Would you believe I'd like to see that Netheril handout? And does "Dungeon of the Hark" have a map?
Mournblade Posted - 27 May 2003 : 04:05:48
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Hey Faraer, great to have you here!

Why am I 'so' hard on Slade? Mainly because he was lead designer on a couple of headline FR products (Netheril and The North boxed set) and didn't do a particularly good job on either. The North is pretty much just a re-hashed FR5 and Volo's Guide to the North (really the only new stuff was on Silverymoon), and Netheril was what I would consider to be a lazy product. Lots of filler, useless stuff like lists of Netherese spells and their modern equivalent, a history that is out of kilter with the previously published Realms, an emphasis on 'overkill' (let's have the first orc horde to hit Netheril number a 100,000 orcs! Good idea, Slade! ...), and a failure to capture Netheril as envisaged by Ed Greenwood (and he has no excuse for this one: I have the Netheril hand-out he sent Slade before he started writing up the boxed set. He practically ignored the whole document!). Essentially, I thinki that Netheril has wonderful potential but was poorly done - and greatly contributed to the demise of the Arcane Age line - one of my favourites thanks to Steven Schend. 'Nuff said.

-- George Krashos




George you are SOOOO correct. I felt a little ripped off when I was reading the NORTH boxed set and some or excuse me MOST of the towns matched Volos guide WORD FOR WORD on the descriptions, where volos guide did them as well. This was also during the TSR DARK time as I like to call it. That product made me quite sure that TSR did not take the readers seriously, and assumed we were all idiots. If you had Volo's guide there was no reason to buy the north.

THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS!!! I was not sure that anyone else realised this and it was Frustrating.


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