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 Elaith Craulnober could be good

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Feanor Posted - 18 Feb 2006 : 20:06:31
Ok, I always had some sympathy for Elaith Craulnober... So, is there anyone who thinks that Elaith could have been a good guy if he had not been rejected by his moonblade ?
Yes, I am one of those, , I don't think Elaith is truly evil at the core, I just think he had a traumatizing experience...
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Markustay Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 18:17:48
Why is it when I read this thread-title, I then add "... with a little salt, pepper, perhaps a dash of onion powder..."

I must be hanging out with Dopplegangers too much.

Anyhow, here in NY a few years back, a man was arrested for robbery (I can't recall the specifics). The only reason why the case made the news was because the man was in the news a year earlier for saving an elderly man from a dog attack.

Its all about circumstances. There is no 'black & white', or 'Good & evil'. In the right set of circumstances, everyone has the capability of both.
The Sage Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 01:35:24
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

I believe that Elaith can do some good things while not actually being a "good" alignment.



That is an essential and oft overlooked point. Even someone chaotic evil can like puppies and stop to help an old lady across the street, on occasion.

Agreed. I tend to think the whole conception for Chaotic Evil seems to emphasise the EVIL more than the CHAOTIC element of the alignment. The CHAOTIC can also constitute behaviour that isn't otherwise wholly EVIL.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 18:44:07
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

I believe that Elaith can do some good things while not actually being a "good" alignment.



That is an essential and oft overlooked point. Even someone chaotic evil can like puppies and stop to help an old lady across the street, on occasion.
Shadowsoul Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 13:54:42
I believe that Elaith can do some good things while not actually being a "good" alignment.
Thauranil Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 11:25:27
Elaith is a rythless criminal mastermind with a few redeeming qualities. This does not make him good. NE at the best. Though perhaps in the future he might restore his honor. Who knows?
Firestorm Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 07:26:44
quote:
Originally posted by ChieftainTwilight

quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

quote:
Originally posted by ChieftainTwilight

quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

quote:
Originally posted by ChieftainTwilight

look, Elaith is Evil. he had Evil tendencies by the time he inherited his Moonblade, and he was a selfish person. that's why the Moonblade rejected him, and I agree that the rejection is what pushed him to further commit the Evilness that he did. what's the point in doing good if you are Evil anyway, aye? sides, he's from a very proud culture.

but the fact of the matter is, that his Moonblade is also the cause of his increasing benevolance. if his Moonblade didn't reject him, Elaith would have fed his own inner Evils anyway. in a way, the Moonblade is teaching him and guiding him, as a parent or ancestor would.

he is still Evil, but he is opening up. Evil folks can still have love for specific others, and they can have doubts and fears and wonder about "doing the right thing". I think that the ideas you put forthe, OP, of Elaith possibly having been able to be a Good Aligned guy if he weren't "abandoned and misunderstood" as I am paraphrasing and interpreting, are misguided. he is becoming a Good Guy precicely BECAUSE of the way he was shaped. if he were not, he'd have no reason to become Good.



I would rather say he was neutral. Completely neutral, but thought of himself as good. Prior to pulling the moonblade, Amnestria commented that he was such an elf. Meaning he just did what was expected of him and did it better than anyone, but never questioned why. Up till that point, he had done nothing but good, never once committing an evil deed. Just what was expected of a good little elflord.

Once his moonblade deactivated, he went into exile, and decided once again to just do what was expected of him. His turn was less motivated by personal feeling than doing what others expected of him to be because of his moonblade.

The short story that details the entire thing is actually one of my favorites.



well, yes... but my point being that in general terms, the Evil in him was clear and dangerous to the Moonblade's senses.

I think of it as the scene in Star Wars where Obi-Wan insists on training Anakin, and the Jedi Council disagrees. Yoda is taking the role of the Craulnbber Family Moonblade in this case.

so, it's ot whether the official game mechanic Alignment was Evil or not at the time, he was exhibiting clear signs that he could and would use the Moonblade for evil purposes if he were just given it and all of it's powers without question.



I slightly disagree. Moonblades were not created to judge good and evil. They were created to judge Honor of a bloodline. Not being honorable is not evil. Merely unworthy to rule due to not being honorable enough. Each successor drawing the blade has a more difficult task since the blades become stronger with age, and only the most honorable can draw them.

The story which detailed his failed drawing of the moonblade detailed quite well that Elaith did nothing because it was considered honorable, but merely because it was expected of him. He never questioned why something was honorable, he merely did it. He was beyond shocked that the moonblade rejected him because he never considered it a possibility.

At the end of the story, it details how he no longer questioned why the moonblade rejected him. because he merely did what was expected. He then tells Arylin, who is taking his daughter under her wing to always teach her to question the rules.



this still seems debatable, in my opinion, but I see your point.


It can go either way. I suppose it is up to the reader
ChieftainTwilight Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 04:03:15
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

quote:
Originally posted by ChieftainTwilight

quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

quote:
Originally posted by ChieftainTwilight

look, Elaith is Evil. he had Evil tendencies by the time he inherited his Moonblade, and he was a selfish person. that's why the Moonblade rejected him, and I agree that the rejection is what pushed him to further commit the Evilness that he did. what's the point in doing good if you are Evil anyway, aye? sides, he's from a very proud culture.

but the fact of the matter is, that his Moonblade is also the cause of his increasing benevolance. if his Moonblade didn't reject him, Elaith would have fed his own inner Evils anyway. in a way, the Moonblade is teaching him and guiding him, as a parent or ancestor would.

he is still Evil, but he is opening up. Evil folks can still have love for specific others, and they can have doubts and fears and wonder about "doing the right thing". I think that the ideas you put forthe, OP, of Elaith possibly having been able to be a Good Aligned guy if he weren't "abandoned and misunderstood" as I am paraphrasing and interpreting, are misguided. he is becoming a Good Guy precicely BECAUSE of the way he was shaped. if he were not, he'd have no reason to become Good.



I would rather say he was neutral. Completely neutral, but thought of himself as good. Prior to pulling the moonblade, Amnestria commented that he was such an elf. Meaning he just did what was expected of him and did it better than anyone, but never questioned why. Up till that point, he had done nothing but good, never once committing an evil deed. Just what was expected of a good little elflord.

Once his moonblade deactivated, he went into exile, and decided once again to just do what was expected of him. His turn was less motivated by personal feeling than doing what others expected of him to be because of his moonblade.

The short story that details the entire thing is actually one of my favorites.



well, yes... but my point being that in general terms, the Evil in him was clear and dangerous to the Moonblade's senses.

I think of it as the scene in Star Wars where Obi-Wan insists on training Anakin, and the Jedi Council disagrees. Yoda is taking the role of the Craulnbber Family Moonblade in this case.

so, it's ot whether the official game mechanic Alignment was Evil or not at the time, he was exhibiting clear signs that he could and would use the Moonblade for evil purposes if he were just given it and all of it's powers without question.



I slightly disagree. Moonblades were not created to judge good and evil. They were created to judge Honor of a bloodline. Not being honorable is not evil. Merely unworthy to rule due to not being honorable enough. Each successor drawing the blade has a more difficult task since the blades become stronger with age, and only the most honorable can draw them.

The story which detailed his failed drawing of the moonblade detailed quite well that Elaith did nothing because it was considered honorable, but merely because it was expected of him. He never questioned why something was honorable, he merely did it. He was beyond shocked that the moonblade rejected him because he never considered it a possibility.

At the end of the story, it details how he no longer questioned why the moonblade rejected him. because he merely did what was expected. He then tells Arylin, who is taking his daughter under her wing to always teach her to question the rules.



this still seems debatable, in my opinion, but I see your point.
Firestorm Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 02:05:52
quote:
Originally posted by ChieftainTwilight

quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

quote:
Originally posted by ChieftainTwilight

look, Elaith is Evil. he had Evil tendencies by the time he inherited his Moonblade, and he was a selfish person. that's why the Moonblade rejected him, and I agree that the rejection is what pushed him to further commit the Evilness that he did. what's the point in doing good if you are Evil anyway, aye? sides, he's from a very proud culture.

but the fact of the matter is, that his Moonblade is also the cause of his increasing benevolance. if his Moonblade didn't reject him, Elaith would have fed his own inner Evils anyway. in a way, the Moonblade is teaching him and guiding him, as a parent or ancestor would.

he is still Evil, but he is opening up. Evil folks can still have love for specific others, and they can have doubts and fears and wonder about "doing the right thing". I think that the ideas you put forthe, OP, of Elaith possibly having been able to be a Good Aligned guy if he weren't "abandoned and misunderstood" as I am paraphrasing and interpreting, are misguided. he is becoming a Good Guy precicely BECAUSE of the way he was shaped. if he were not, he'd have no reason to become Good.



I would rather say he was neutral. Completely neutral, but thought of himself as good. Prior to pulling the moonblade, Amnestria commented that he was such an elf. Meaning he just did what was expected of him and did it better than anyone, but never questioned why. Up till that point, he had done nothing but good, never once committing an evil deed. Just what was expected of a good little elflord.

Once his moonblade deactivated, he went into exile, and decided once again to just do what was expected of him. His turn was less motivated by personal feeling than doing what others expected of him to be because of his moonblade.

The short story that details the entire thing is actually one of my favorites.



well, yes... but my point being that in general terms, the Evil in him was clear and dangerous to the Moonblade's senses.

I think of it as the scene in Star Wars where Obi-Wan insists on training Anakin, and the Jedi Council disagrees. Yoda is taking the role of the Craulnbber Family Moonblade in this case.

so, it's ot whether the official game mechanic Alignment was Evil or not at the time, he was exhibiting clear signs that he could and would use the Moonblade for evil purposes if he were just given it and all of it's powers without question.



I slightly disagree. Moonblades were not created to judge good and evil. They were created to judge Honor of a bloodline. Not being honorable is not evil. Merely unworthy to rule due to not being honorable enough. Each successor drawing the blade has a more difficult task since the blades become stronger with age, and only the most honorable can draw them.

The story which detailed his failed drawing of the moonblade detailed quite well that Elaith did nothing because it was considered honorable, but merely because it was expected of him. He never questioned why something was honorable, he merely did it. He was beyond shocked that the moonblade rejected him because he never considered it a possibility.

At the end of the story, it details how he no longer questioned why the moonblade rejected him. because he merely did what was expected. He then tells Arylin, who is taking his daughter under her wing to always teach her to question the rules.
ChieftainTwilight Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 01:17:07
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

quote:
Originally posted by ChieftainTwilight

look, Elaith is Evil. he had Evil tendencies by the time he inherited his Moonblade, and he was a selfish person. that's why the Moonblade rejected him, and I agree that the rejection is what pushed him to further commit the Evilness that he did. what's the point in doing good if you are Evil anyway, aye? sides, he's from a very proud culture.

but the fact of the matter is, that his Moonblade is also the cause of his increasing benevolance. if his Moonblade didn't reject him, Elaith would have fed his own inner Evils anyway. in a way, the Moonblade is teaching him and guiding him, as a parent or ancestor would.

he is still Evil, but he is opening up. Evil folks can still have love for specific others, and they can have doubts and fears and wonder about "doing the right thing". I think that the ideas you put forthe, OP, of Elaith possibly having been able to be a Good Aligned guy if he weren't "abandoned and misunderstood" as I am paraphrasing and interpreting, are misguided. he is becoming a Good Guy precicely BECAUSE of the way he was shaped. if he were not, he'd have no reason to become Good.



I would rather say he was neutral. Completely neutral, but thought of himself as good. Prior to pulling the moonblade, Amnestria commented that he was such an elf. Meaning he just did what was expected of him and did it better than anyone, but never questioned why. Up till that point, he had done nothing but good, never once committing an evil deed. Just what was expected of a good little elflord.

Once his moonblade deactivated, he went into exile, and decided once again to just do what was expected of him. His turn was less motivated by personal feeling than doing what others expected of him to be because of his moonblade.

The short story that details the entire thing is actually one of my favorites.



well, yes... but my point being that in general terms, the Evil in him was clear and dangerous to the Moonblade's senses.

I think of it as the scene in Star Wars where Obi-Wan insists on training Anakin, and the Jedi Council disagrees. Yoda is taking the role of the Craulnbber Family Moonblade in this case.

so, it's ot whether the official game mechanic Alignment was Evil or not at the time, he was exhibiting clear signs that he could and would use the Moonblade for evil purposes if he were just given it and all of it's powers without question.
Firestorm Posted - 10 Mar 2011 : 00:42:13
quote:
Originally posted by ChieftainTwilight

look, Elaith is Evil. he had Evil tendencies by the time he inherited his Moonblade, and he was a selfish person. that's why the Moonblade rejected him, and I agree that the rejection is what pushed him to further commit the Evilness that he did. what's the point in doing good if you are Evil anyway, aye? sides, he's from a very proud culture.

but the fact of the matter is, that his Moonblade is also the cause of his increasing benevolance. if his Moonblade didn't reject him, Elaith would have fed his own inner Evils anyway. in a way, the Moonblade is teaching him and guiding him, as a parent or ancestor would.

he is still Evil, but he is opening up. Evil folks can still have love for specific others, and they can have doubts and fears and wonder about "doing the right thing". I think that the ideas you put forthe, OP, of Elaith possibly having been able to be a Good Aligned guy if he weren't "abandoned and misunderstood" as I am paraphrasing and interpreting, are misguided. he is becoming a Good Guy precicely BECAUSE of the way he was shaped. if he were not, he'd have no reason to become Good.



I would rather say he was neutral. Completely neutral, but thought of himself as good. Prior to pulling the moonblade, Amnestria commented that he was such an elf. Meaning he just did what was expected of him and did it better than anyone, but never questioned why. Up till that point, he had done nothing but good, never once committing an evil deed. Just what was expected of a good little elflord.

Once his moonblade deactivated, he went into exile, and decided once again to just do what was expected of him. His turn was less motivated by personal feeling than doing what others expected of him to be because of his moonblade.

The short story that details the entire thing is actually one of my favorites.
Dalor Darden Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 05:06:18
Aye, I believe he could have been good...just as much as Raistlin Majere from Krynn "could have been good"...but it just wasn't to be.

History shapes each individual...and sometimes that history begins to shape them before they are ever even born...
ChieftainTwilight Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 03:50:04
look, Elaith is Evil. he had Evil tendencies by the time he inherited his Moonblade, and he was a selfish person. that's why the Moonblade rejected him, and I agree that the rejection is what pushed him to further commit the Evilness that he did. what's the point in doing good if you are Evil anyway, aye? sides, he's from a very proud culture.

but the fact of the matter is, that his Moonblade is also the cause of his increasing benevolance. if his Moonblade didn't reject him, Elaith would have fed his own inner Evils anyway. in a way, the Moonblade is teaching him and guiding him, as a parent or ancestor would.

he is still Evil, but he is opening up. Evil folks can still have love for specific others, and they can have doubts and fears and wonder about "doing the right thing". I think that the ideas you put forthe, OP, of Elaith possibly having been able to be a Good Aligned guy if he weren't "abandoned and misunderstood" as I am paraphrasing and interpreting, are misguided. he is becoming a Good Guy precicely BECAUSE of the way he was shaped. if he were not, he'd have no reason to become Good.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin Posted - 13 Jun 2008 : 17:38:23
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir

I think that Elaith wasn't a 'good guy' before being rejected, just not Evil evil (in game terms). He was arrogant, rather selfish, and conceited.


He could have been evil. *shrug* We don't have stats for it, so we don't know for sure.

quote:
BTW, just thought of this -- does anyone here ever see Elaith joining the elven racists, the Eldreth Veluuthra?



Not at all.
The Sage Posted - 13 Jun 2008 : 01:57:23
I tend to agree with Wooly. Elaith already has enough wealth, power, and contacts to make people uneasy, or to achieve a significant goal that would otherwise be impossible for most people. Any potential relationship that would exist between himself and the EV would probably only come about because he believes that the organisation could possibly help him to achieve something that is currently beyond his means.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 13 Jun 2008 : 00:29:05
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir

I think that Elaith wasn't a 'good guy' before being rejected, just not Evil evil (in game terms). He was arrogant, rather selfish, and conceited. Had there been no moonblade to worry about, and had he made the Guard, I think that he would have done well -- but it would have introduced a streak of corruption into the Guard that could have caused even more trouble later in time.

Besides, I like him as a shady elf crimelord.

BTW, just thought of this -- does anyone here ever see Elaith joining the elven racists, the Eldreth Veluuthra? I could see him dealing with them, but more in the sense of using them than actually joining them. After all, they'd expect him to put all his resources at their disposal, and I can't see Elaith doing that for anyone.



If Elaith did join them, it would be purely to use them. He's never shown any tendency to follow their ideals.
Ardashir Posted - 13 Jun 2008 : 00:23:30
I think that Elaith wasn't a 'good guy' before being rejected, just not Evil evil (in game terms). He was arrogant, rather selfish, and conceited. Had there been no moonblade to worry about, and had he made the Guard, I think that he would have done well -- but it would have introduced a streak of corruption into the Guard that could have caused even more trouble later in time.

Besides, I like him as a shady elf crimelord.

BTW, just thought of this -- does anyone here ever see Elaith joining the elven racists, the Eldreth Veluuthra? I could see him dealing with them, but more in the sense of using them than actually joining them. After all, they'd expect him to put all his resources at their disposal, and I can't see Elaith doing that for anyone.
BARDOBARBAROS Posted - 11 Jun 2008 : 20:50:36
No
Pharaun Mizzrym Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 23:22:57
Eh I'm kinda split on this he has had his good-aligned moments but much more but much more Evil moments IMO I'd say he is CN with a leaning towards Evil but his daughter has inspired him to choose a more righteous path
Chataro Posted - 21 Oct 2007 : 05:56:44
BY then he was already rejected by the moonblade
Charles Phipps Posted - 20 Oct 2007 : 23:58:06
I think the Moonblade isn't going to kill any evil elves if they're the last of their lineage or the Moonblade will never be wielded again. It's just one of those things. I think Elaith was selfish, greedy, racist, and unpleasant well before the Moonblade rejected him (recall he was going tomb robbing when he was still engaged to Arilyn's mother in Evermeet).
Chataro Posted - 20 Oct 2007 : 16:38:57
Not until the day I see Elaith actually being glad to do charities for its own sake would I even think of changing Elaith's Alignment.
Jorkens Posted - 20 Oct 2007 : 06:31:04
I must admit that I cant see how that one act should put him on the way of becoming a different alignment. She is his daughter and the name he shamed (neutral evil can still have a form of pride) could to a degree be redeemed by these actions, there is a clear selfish gain to these actions. After that he goes back to his usual business (of killing, blackmailing etc) in Waterdeep; I don't see many actions pointing towards neutral or good tendencies.

Of course, that could just be me.
Penknight Posted - 19 Oct 2007 : 23:15:46
I agree, noble Lady. And hopefully it will be sometime soon.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin Posted - 19 Oct 2007 : 18:46:08
quote:
Originally posted by Penknight

quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

Elaith could be good in the future, but as of now, he is not, according to his official alignment. *shrug*

After going on his quest to restore his family blade for his daughter, I could see an alignment shift from NE to TN. Your thoughts, Lady Rinona?



I think it's possible, certainly. Perhaps, even probable. But only time will tell.
Chataro Posted - 19 Oct 2007 : 14:40:53
I don't think a simple quest like that could be enough to change his alignment.

Below is just my opinion, so no offence intended

Many people who enjoys forgotten realm simply forgot that alignment merely reflects what he believes in or prefer to act as. For example, I believe many people in this world is probably chaotic good, but they don't go out and mow down gangsters with a machine gun for that. IN fact, they probably are lawful most of the time and rely more on the police to settle issues regarding lawbreakers.

elaith probably still is Neutral Evil though he still believes that he still has to do his duty to his daughter. Just a single case of moonblade restoration is not really enough for him to change his ways.
Penknight Posted - 19 Oct 2007 : 00:48:41
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

Elaith could be good in the future, but as of now, he is not, according to his official alignment. *shrug*

After going on his quest to restore his family blade for his daughter, I could see an alignment shift from NE to TN. Your thoughts, Lady Rinona?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 17:26:09
Elaith could be good in the future, but as of now, he is not, according to his official alignment. *shrug*
sirreus Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 15:41:10
most of the evil in the world is done by those who have not decided to be evil. i think it's a question only his most prominent author could settle. mrs. cunningham where are you?
Chataro Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 15:16:49
What a circle we turn in!
Mask Posted - 11 Apr 2006 : 14:05:39
Perhaps, but I didn't mean Elaith has been evil all his life. I think part of why Elaith became evil is because the moonblade rejected him.

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